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Disagree. I prefer the system that's in place currently for the Primaris(Standard, Gravis, Phobos) to any of that nonsense suggested.

The bloat is sitting in the Oldmarine section with the Terminator Armour, Jump Pack, Bike, etc profiles.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Disagree. I prefer the system that's in place currently for the Primaris(Standard, Gravis, Phobos) to any of that nonsense suggested.

The bloat is sitting in the Oldmarine section with the Terminator Armour, Jump Pack, Bike, etc profiles.

The only difference is the old marines have had more time to expand their model range. When the primaris have matured as a line where they have all the armor options, it will be exactly the same.

 Nevelon wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Disagree. I prefer the system that's in place currently for the Primaris(Standard, Gravis, Phobos) to any of that nonsense suggested.

The bloat is sitting in the Oldmarine section with the Terminator Armour, Jump Pack, Bike, etc profiles.

The only difference is the old marines have had more time to expand their model range. When the primaris have matured as a line where they have all the armor options, it will be exactly the same.

Except it won't be?

The Oldmarines Captain has 4 profiles in and of himself: Bike, Terminator, Cataphractii, Standard(which can buy a Jump Pack).
2 of those profiles(Terminator and Cataphractii) could have been rolled together but weren't. The difference is literally the "Cataphractii Armour and Iron Halo" bespoke rule(Halve your Advance results and gain a 3+ Invulnerable Save instead of the 4+ from their Iron Halo).
Bikes are arguable in that they could be done as wargear or could be left alone as profiles. But really, look at the Phobos Captain vs the regular. There is a difference and it comes down to his wargear bringing quite a few rules with him. If you want to argue that the Phobos guys should be given more to differentiate them? I'd totally agree.

The biggest offenders for bloat on the Primaris side haven't been characters anyways. It's been units. Incursors, Infiltrators, and Reivers should have been a combined profile or something because it shows on the Shadowspear Lieutenants just how weird they are as a concept. Reivers have bolt carbines/bp/ccw/grav-chute/grappling options...and the Reiver Lieutenant gets a BP/CCW and the Reiver keyword but also Smoke Grenades(which Infiltrators get) while the non-Reiver Lieutenant gets Grav-Chute(Reiver equipment), Paired Combat Blades(Incursor gear), and the Occulus Bolt Carbine(Incursor gear).

The Phobos units, as much as I like them, needed some more concepting. They didn't get it sadly.

I’m not arguing that there isn’t bloat on the old marine side. The different flavors/options on terminators being a big one. I disagree that it’s not on the primaris HQ side. The only reason it’s not nearly as bad is the time IMHO.

8 primaris HQs
3 captains
2 LTs
2 librarians
1 chaplain

vs.
10 old marine HQs
4 captains
1 Lt.
2 librarians
2 chaplains
1 techmarine

This is just datasheets in the Codex. Not counting supplements, FW, or legends. That last one is obviously packed with more, but the whole point of legends was to reduce bloat and clutter. We are unlikely to see more old marine HQs. We are likely to see the Primaris line expanded with gravis (possibly jump versions) maybe bikes (if the fuzzy leak a while ago is accurate) or just fleshing out the other options. They might even do something odd like make a HQ with suppressor-like armor. And due to the way they are currently listing options, each model is going to have it’s own bespoke gear choices where you can’t mix and match. Unlike, as the thread title asks, the “special” intercessor sarge, who gets a wargear list.

Don't even get me started on the Terminator Captain suddenly gaining new rules if he has a different Mk of Terminator armor. Utterly ridiculous and a great example of bloat.


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 cuda1179 wrote:
The kicker is that there are a couple Primaris units out there, like Reivers, that could very well do with some of these upgrades. Reivers in particular have been viewed as utter trash since they were introduced. Simply adding a power sword/fist to the weapons options would make them incredibly better. THe fist might be broken, but certainly the sword could be a viable, non abusable option.

You'd have to be a trash player to think the Power Fist being available for the Reiver Sergeant would be broken.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Don't even get me started on the Terminator Captain suddenly gaining new rules if he has a different Mk of Terminator armor. Utterly ridiculous and a great example of bloat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 cuda1179 wrote:
The kicker is that there are a couple Primaris units out there, like Reivers, that could very well do with some of these upgrades. Reivers in particular have been viewed as utter trash since they were introduced. Simply adding a power sword/fist to the weapons options would make them incredibly better. THe fist might be broken, but certainly the sword could be a viable, non abusable option.

You'd have to be a trash player to think the Power Fist being available for the Reiver Sergeant would be broken.

It’s just a powerfist. We are not talking about thunder hammers, which would break the game is allowed in the hands of sternguard vet sarges. But are OK for intercessors. Think of what they could do in a unit with the fighting prowess of reovers!

Have I mentioned that arbitrary gear restrictions bug me? You may have noticed...

Reivers are just crappy assault marines. You could give the sarge the Emperor’s Sword, and it might boost the unit to “usable, but situational”. They have some interesting deployment and movement options, but they are not going to one shot anything, even if you could trick out the sarge.

Reivers ultimately need an extra point on their Knives and Carbines.

Not sure about that.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Don't even get me started on the Terminator Captain suddenly gaining new rules if he has a different Mk of Terminator armor. Utterly ridiculous and a great example of bloat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 cuda1179 wrote:
The kicker is that there are a couple Primaris units out there, like Reivers, that could very well do with some of these upgrades. Reivers in particular have been viewed as utter trash since they were introduced. Simply adding a power sword/fist to the weapons options would make them incredibly better. THe fist might be broken, but certainly the sword could be a viable, non abusable option.

You'd have to be a trash player to think the Power Fist being available for the Reiver Sergeant would be broken.

I agree with you. I'm just trying to acknowledge that some people claim powerfists might be OP on Reivers. While I disagree with that opinion, I'd like to point out that even the extremists have no leg to stand on when it comes to the humble power sword.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Reivers ultimately need an extra point on their Knives and Carbines.

Martel732 wrote:
Not sure about that.

I doubt anyone but Slayer is sure about that, what he wrote could mean anything from "Riever Knives and Carbines need to be a point each" to "Reiver Knives and Carbines both need to be D2".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 cuda1179 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Don't even get me started on the Terminator Captain suddenly gaining new rules if he has a different Mk of Terminator armor. Utterly ridiculous and a great example of bloat.

 cuda1179 wrote:
The kicker is that there are a couple Primaris units out there, like Reivers, that could very well do with some of these upgrades. Reivers in particular have been viewed as utter trash since they were introduced. Simply adding a power sword/fist to the weapons options would make them incredibly better. THe fist might be broken, but certainly the sword could be a viable, non abusable option.

You'd have to be a trash player to think the Power Fist being available for the Reiver Sergeant would be broken.

I agree with you. I'm just trying to acknowledge that some people claim powerfists might be OP on Reivers. While I disagree with that opinion, I'd like to point out that even the extremists have no leg to stand on when it comes to the humble power sword.

I think the only person to come anywhere near that in this thread was me, and I was talking about Infiltrator/Incursor Sergeants. I've said a few times Reivers would be in a better place if they got both their Carbines and Knives standard and with the changes to Intercessor weapons the Bolt Carbine looks kind of sad now, but the unit isn't going to be on anyone's radar until the serg gets better equipment options.

True. The only reason you'd take reivers is for turn 2 cheaper infiltrators. The melee is lack luster, and the S4 bolt carbines can basically be used by every other unit. The morale debuff is negligible considering all the ways to mitigate morale.

I have a hard time finding a purpose for this unit

Reivers are amazing for White Scars and Blood Angels tought. Specially White Scars. -2AP pistols and -1AP 2D attacks on turn 3 are legit.

 fraser1191 wrote:
True. The only reason you'd take reivers is for turn 2 cheaper infiltrators. The melee is lack luster, and the S4 bolt carbines can basically be used by every other unit. The morale debuff is negligible considering all the ways to mitigate morale.

I have a hard time finding a purpose for this unit

Reivers are a mess, period. The morale debuff is something that should have been applicable to casualties caused by Reivers, whether in melee or at range.

Primaris, IMO, don't need "hidden sergeant' style setups for carting weapons into melee. They need a viable melee unit. The Paired Combat Blades rule that Incursors got? That should have been on the Combat Knife that Reivers get--alongside of the +1A. That would go a long way towards solving some of their silliness...alongside of Carbines, BP, Knife being the standard loadout.

The Newman wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Reivers ultimately need an extra point on their Knives and Carbines.

Martel732 wrote:
Not sure about that.

I doubt anyone but Slayer is sure about that, what he wrote could mean anything from "Riever Knives and Carbines need to be a point each" to "Reiver Knives and Carbines both need to be D2".


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 cuda1179 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Don't even get me started on the Terminator Captain suddenly gaining new rules if he has a different Mk of Terminator armor. Utterly ridiculous and a great example of bloat.

 cuda1179 wrote:
The kicker is that there are a couple Primaris units out there, like Reivers, that could very well do with some of these upgrades. Reivers in particular have been viewed as utter trash since they were introduced. Simply adding a power sword/fist to the weapons options would make them incredibly better. THe fist might be broken, but certainly the sword could be a viable, non abusable option.

You'd have to be a trash player to think the Power Fist being available for the Reiver Sergeant would be broken.

I agree with you. I'm just trying to acknowledge that some people claim powerfists might be OP on Reivers. While I disagree with that opinion, I'd like to point out that even the extremists have no leg to stand on when it comes to the humble power sword.

I think the only person to come anywhere near that in this thread was me, and I was talking about Infiltrator/Incursor Sergeants. I've said a few times Reivers would be in a better place if they got both their Carbines and Knives standard and with the changes to Intercessor weapons the Bolt Carbine looks kind of sad now, but the unit isn't going to be on anyone's radar until the serg gets better equipment options.

I posted without completing the sentence. I meant an extra point of AP, so AP-1.

Reivers are kind of a mess, no denying that.

They have one piece of wargear for DS and another for pseudo-DS and pseudo-fly, and both are over-costed on a M6" unit.

They're the only unit in the entire codex with native overwatch denial, but they can't use it from far enough out for a DS charge no matter what you do. They're just begging for a grenade launcher.

The fact that they're in the Elite slot at all, as-is they're entirely too similar to the other Phobos troops in capability. They might actually see some use as troops just by virtue of being the least expensive five-man Primaris unit available.

The well-covered issues of wargear and Serg options.

Yeah, I don't know what the heck GW is thinking here.