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I mean given that something like 60 percent of chapters descend from Ultramarines meaning there's something like 600000 of Roboute's genesons around. That's well over twice the size of Ultramarines Legion. And this is with them not having a Primarch for gene-seed material and being split into many chapters and with no intense plans of growing their numbers.

So assuming no Heresy happened and constant pressure was kept on expanding the Legions, how large would they have gotten?

I think the plan was to cull them, like the Thunder Warriors were culled. Given the War of the Beast 1,000 years later that might have made a dent in the numbers had the Legions continued as units.

The plan was definitely to remove most of them IIRC. A couple of Legions might have gotten a pass as police or a much smaller army but the majority were going to be removed.

Once the Great Crusade reached its final stages, there wouldn't be as much need for an all conquering force, with their role likely specialized to protecting frontier regions or police/insurgent control. This means that the certain legions like the World Eaters would have been put down, given their uncontrollable nature with the Butcher's Nails, alongside some of the more extreme legions.

 Grimskul wrote:
Once the Great Crusade reached its final stages, there wouldn't be as much need for an all conquering force, with their role likely specialized to protecting frontier regions or police/insurgent control. This means that the certain legions lileWorld Eaters would have been put down, given their uncontrollable nature with the Butcher's Nails, alongside some of the more extreme legions.

Agreed. World Eaters and the Night Lords would've been the first to get the axe. Which is one of the reasons the Night Lords were already effectively operating as renegades before the Heresy even started. Curze knew what was coming.

I think at the point the Emperor tried to cull down the legions, that's at what point the civil war would have errupted at the latest. Promarchs aren't going down gently, so they will rebel for themselves and their legions.

I believe one of the novels mentions a sort of villa in the Palace where the Primarchs were going to live post Crusade. So the only reason to rebel would be for the Legion and let's face it - some Primarchs just didn't care.

Plus if you handled it right you can most likely avoid a civil war which wouldn't be hard for the character the Emperor is MEANT to be. Might be like climbing Mt Everest with one arm for the character he actually is though.

I wonder if the Emperor would tolerate Primarchs choosing to live away from him.

Like let's say Fulgrim moving back to his old life before becoming a Primarch. So basically working there as an ordinary worker.

Or Roboute to become governor of Ultramar.

Or Russ simply moving back to Fenris to drink, eat, feth, repeat.

As he's presented probably not with some of them. Fulgrim and Roboute would get away with returning to rule planets if they could sell it as a justifiable reward/what the people want as the Emperor planned to pass rule over to normal people.

Russ couldn't just rule Fenris without it being converted to something that contributes more than arms as his and his planets value is a soldier/soldier maker. People like Curze and Angron had no chance.

It's a moot point because the Emperor engineered the Heresy to begin with to cull the Astartes. He couldn't use the Custodes to cull the Astartes as he had the Thunder Warriors, they were too many and too spread out. The only solution was to have two halves wiping each other out.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
It's a moot point because the Emperor engineered the Heresy to begin with to cull the Astartes. He couldn't use the Custodes to cull the Astartes as he had the Thunder Warriors, they were too many and too spread out. The only solution was to have two halves wiping each other out.

Do correct me if I'm wrong but that's never been more than a fan theory. It's a pretty stupid way of doing things. I know 40k has stupid decisions aplenty but even a lesser Heresy would be a giant problem so why would you start it just to clean up Marines...

If there was no Heresy, the four gods of chaos would've been defeated long ago with combined power of 18 chapters. At the end of this conflict, SM chapters would have dissolved and forgotten like the custodes.

pm713 wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
It's a moot point because the Emperor engineered the Heresy to begin with to cull the Astartes. He couldn't use the Custodes to cull the Astartes as he had the Thunder Warriors, they were too many and too spread out. The only solution was to have two halves wiping each other out.

Do correct me if I'm wrong but that's never been more than a fan theory. It's a pretty stupid way of doing things. I know 40k has stupid decisions aplenty but even a lesser Heresy would be a giant problem so why would you start it just to clean up Marines...

it's more then a fan theory, Malchador says that was the plan all along, however he's comforting a dying woman and we know some of what he told her, by Malchador's own admission was a soothing lie to make her rest easier

BrianDavion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
It's a moot point because the Emperor engineered the Heresy to begin with to cull the Astartes. He couldn't use the Custodes to cull the Astartes as he had the Thunder Warriors, they were too many and too spread out. The only solution was to have two halves wiping each other out.

Do correct me if I'm wrong but that's never been more than a fan theory. It's a pretty stupid way of doing things. I know 40k has stupid decisions aplenty but even a lesser Heresy would be a giant problem so why would you start it just to clean up Marines...

it's more then a fan theory, Malchador says that was the plan all along, however he's comforting a dying woman and we know some of what he told her, by Malchador's own admission was a soothing lie to make her rest easier

So we have someone lying to a woman as evidence? That's hardly convincing me that it was the plan all along.

pm713 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
It's a moot point because the Emperor engineered the Heresy to begin with to cull the Astartes. He couldn't use the Custodes to cull the Astartes as he had the Thunder Warriors, they were too many and too spread out. The only solution was to have two halves wiping each other out.

Do correct me if I'm wrong but that's never been more than a fan theory. It's a pretty stupid way of doing things. I know 40k has stupid decisions aplenty but even a lesser Heresy would be a giant problem so why would you start it just to clean up Marines...

it's more then a fan theory, Malchador says that was the plan all along, however he's comforting a dying woman and we know some of what he told her, by Malchador's own admission was a soothing lie to make her rest easier

So we have someone lying to a woman as evidence? That's hardly convincing me that it was the plan all along.

SOME of what he said. she died while he comforted her that the emperor would project her soul in the warp... and IMHO that is what he lied about

Guess Brian doesnt read his own sig.

There is no starving of khaos. There would still be untold amounts of people to keep in line. The Orks would always need to be cut down. The crons and nids didnt even exist back then.

Plenty of options to use the legions without a culling.
Even the world eaters, use them as eversor assassins.
The universe is a big place, lots of places for wayward legions to go missing. Send them to the ghoul stars, out beyond the eastern rim. Stick them in sus-an until theyre needed, like a certain someone has manged to do for 10k years.

the ancient wrote:
Guess Brian doesnt read his own sig.

There is no starving of khaos. There would still be untold amounts of people to keep in line. The Orks would always need to be cut down. The crons and nids didnt even exist back then.

Plenty of options to use the legions without a culling.
Even the world eaters, use them as eversor assassins.
The universe is a big place, lots of places for wayward legions to go missing. Send them to the ghoul stars, out beyond the eastern rim. Stick them in sus-an until theyre needed, like a certain someone has manged to do for 10k years.

That all depends on what the actual end goal of the Imperial Webway Project was - was it to use the Imperial Webway in the same way the Craftworld Eldar do, or was he going to move humanity into it, like Commorragh of the Dark Eldar.

 skchsan wrote:
If there was no Heresy, the four gods of chaos would've been defeated long ago with combined power of 18 chapters. .

The legions had no ability to combat, let alone defeat, the chaos gods.
That they were intentionally left ignorant of their existence was just icing on that cake.

The marines were for the brutal conquest of the physical galaxy, nothing more. The few that even had any ability to deal with any warp incursions (and contest with daemons, but still not the chaos gods) were told to walk away from those tools.

the ancient wrote:
Guess Brian doesnt read his own sig.

There is no starving of khaos. There would still be untold amounts of people to keep in line. The Orks would always need to be cut down. The crons and nids didnt even exist back then.

Plenty of options to use the legions without a culling.
Even the world eaters, use them as eversor assassins.
The universe is a big place, lots of places for wayward legions to go missing. Send them to the ghoul stars, out beyond the eastern rim. Stick them in sus-an until theyre needed, like a certain someone has manged to do for 10k years.

sure I do, I'm not presenting the "legionary civil wars was planned" as a fact. I'm noting that it's an idea that's offically been put out there as a fact. how much you want to ascribe to it is your own opinion. I also noted that Malchador said some other things, and that he told himself he lied about somethings at the end, and that I think he lied about something in specific. I have never presented my opinions as factual.

While its not a popularity contest, I see it basically exactly as BrianDavion pointed out.

I actually devoted some time to a scenario where the Heresy didn't occur (at least not in it's current form) To make a long story short, When the emperor Arrives on Cthonia, Horus was nowhere to be found, the rest is pretty similar, When the first Space Marines did start to get corrupted, half the primarchs where allready lost or Slain, and the legions severely diminshed. No assault on Terra takes place, but practically all surviving Marines side with Chaos, most flee to the eye of Terror, those that don't are exterminated by a combination of Custodes, Mechanicum and regular army.

I don't buy the idea of the legions being culled- great crusade or no, there's a lot of galaxy out there to defend the imperium from. You'll never entirely get rid of the Orks, for instance, and there'll always be rebellions and new xeno threats to be contained. Even without knowledge of necrons and Tyranids, you're still going to need a hard hitting strike force to defend against unknown unknowns. At most I can see some being retired to "reserve" status, possibly (as others alluded to) kept in stasis or whatever until needed

 Skinflint Games wrote:
I don't buy the idea of the legions being culled- great crusade or no, there's a lot of galaxy out there to defend the imperium from. You'll never entirely get rid of the Orks, for instance, and there'll always be rebellions and new xeno threats to be contained. Even without knowledge of necrons and Tyranids, you're still going to need a hard hitting strike force to defend against unknown unknowns. At most I can see some being retired to "reserve" status, possibly (as others alluded to) kept in stasis or whatever until needed

Orks aren't going anywhere but most Xenos are going to be gone permanently. Things like Tau stop being a problem because even before you bombard them to hell and back you have the Imperial Army. Marines on the scale of the Legions are just excessive.

pm713 wrote:
The plan was definitely to remove most of them IIRC. A couple of Legions might have gotten a pass as police or a much smaller army but the majority were going to be removed.

I always thought one of the biggest wastes of the Horus Heresy book series was that they didn't go with this as the 'cause' of the Heresy, as it would have had so much more of an emotional and relatable impact than "stabbed my a magic sword and then suddenly you're in it with the bad guys, just cause"

How much more interesting if we had seen the marines being relegated to garrison duty, their numbers thinned by having them smashed against impenetrable defences, their companies split. You could even have had more nefarious methods - something introduced to the gene seed to prevent reproduction etc.

I often felt this is the problem with having lots of authors running the series - there was no single visionary for how it could progress, no-one with the balls (or the freedom?) to introduce a plotline that dealt with the issue of what was going to happen to the Legions when there was no more to conquer. Even though this must surely have been one of the Emperor's plans. So you get some writers that have touched on it (ADB and Konrad Curze) but it really made the whole underpinnings of the Heresy, the single most important event in 40k lore, unbelievable.

* Yes I know Horus had visions, after said magic sword-stabbing, but it just made him seem unbelievably simple for being hoodwinked in such a fashion. There needed to evidence for him to base this prejudice from.

Maybe remove, just meant from combat.
The IF and IW go off happily building stuff. The TKS become a psykic choir. BA swanning round the galaxy doing artsy stuff. Guilliman takes over the accounts department, NL are kept for those that really pissed the emp off.
etc etc.
Theres no point having a palace on terra for twenty generals, if your going to turn round and kill all their troops. Thered be some resentment there.

 Pacific wrote:

pm713 wrote:
The plan was definitely to remove most of them IIRC. A couple of Legions might have gotten a pass as police or a much smaller army but the majority were going to be removed.

I always thought one of the biggest wastes of the Horus Heresy book series was that they didn't go with this as the 'cause' of the Heresy, as it would have had so much more of an emotional and relatable impact than "stabbed my a magic sword and then suddenly you're in it with the bad guys, just cause"

How much more interesting if we had seen the marines being relegated to garrison duty, their numbers thinned by having them smashed against impenetrable defences, their companies split. You could even have had more nefarious methods - something introduced to the gene seed to prevent reproduction etc.

I often felt this is the problem with having lots of authors running the series - there was no single visionary for how it could progress, no-one with the balls (or the freedom?) to introduce a plotline that dealt with the issue of what was going to happen to the Legions when there was no more to conquer. Even though this must surely have been one of the Emperor's plans. So you get some writers that have touched on it (ADB and Konrad Curze) but it really made the whole underpinnings of the Heresy, the single most important event in 40k lore, unbelievable.

* Yes I know Horus had visions, after said magic sword-stabbing, but it just made him seem unbelievably simple for being hoodwinked in such a fashion. There needed to evidence for him to base this prejudice from.

I like this thought and it still leaves room for Horus to be villain, if perhaps slightly more relatable. It also brings about an interesting question: Can a group, who's nature and philosophy revolve around conquering others, even exist in the piece that would come after? There were many primarchs who valued themselves on their ability to dominate their enemies. What happens when there are no more enemies? It would certainly tie in with warhammer 40k's motto "there is only war".

 Mr Nobody wrote:

 Pacific wrote:

pm713 wrote:
The plan was definitely to remove most of them IIRC. A couple of Legions might have gotten a pass as police or a much smaller army but the majority were going to be removed.

I always thought one of the biggest wastes of the Horus Heresy book series was that they didn't go with this as the 'cause' of the Heresy, as it would have had so much more of an emotional and relatable impact than "stabbed my a magic sword and then suddenly you're in it with the bad guys, just cause"

How much more interesting if we had seen the marines being relegated to garrison duty, their numbers thinned by having them smashed against impenetrable defences, their companies split. You could even have had more nefarious methods - something introduced to the gene seed to prevent reproduction etc.

I often felt this is the problem with having lots of authors running the series - there was no single visionary for how it could progress, no-one with the balls (or the freedom?) to introduce a plotline that dealt with the issue of what was going to happen to the Legions when there was no more to conquer. Even though this must surely have been one of the Emperor's plans. So you get some writers that have touched on it (ADB and Konrad Curze) but it really made the whole underpinnings of the Heresy, the single most important event in 40k lore, unbelievable.

* Yes I know Horus had visions, after said magic sword-stabbing, but it just made him seem unbelievably simple for being hoodwinked in such a fashion. There needed to evidence for him to base this prejudice from.

I like this thought and it still leaves room for Horus to be villain, if perhaps slightly more relatable. It also brings about an interesting question: Can a group, who's nature and philosophy revolve around conquering others, even exist in the piece that would come after? There were many primarchs who valued themselves on their ability to dominate their enemies. What happens when there are no more enemies? It would certainly tie in with warhammer 40k's motto "there is only war".

A lot of the Primarchs aren't issues without war. Perturabo, Fulgrim, Sanguinius, Roboute, Magnus, Vulkan and sort of Russ would have had other things to. People like Dorn wouldn't have gone traitor by themselves and the only 2 who'd be a guaranteed issue are Angron and Curze because they're nuts.

 Pacific wrote:

* Yes I know Horus had visions, after said magic sword-stabbing, but it just made him seem unbelievably simple for being hoodwinked in such a fashion. There needed to evidence for him to base this prejudice from.

What makes this worse is he flat-out tells Erebus (in said visions) that he knows Erebus is trying to trick him, and that both Erebus and Magnus should shut the gak up.
Then the actual decision is off camera, and suddenly Heresy! because... reasons.

Despite having an omniscient viewpoint up until his actual choice, we're forced to skip whatever actual motivations and rationale he used to justify to himself why he'd join Team Evil.

If any of the legions were to survive beyond the crusade I think The emperor would have carefully selected a few for being straight up successful armies. Ultra Marines, Dark Angels, Luna Wolves.

AL would probably be kept around in secret

I think blood angles and space wolves would have been sent away to fight battles that eventually wiped them out as a convenient way to get rid of them. On the assumption that the emperor became aware of the curse of the Wolfen and black rage.

The rest would go somehow. Maybe salamanders would become their own fiefdom.

The rest are too much of a risk as demonstrated by the HH. Humans were to inherit the galaxy that the SM legions conquered not the SM, which was always going to anger enough SM to the point where some form of rebellion was inevitable.

Is the wulfen thing really a curse when it's intentional?