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2020/06/07 21:45:14
Subject: Re:"Heads-up: Price Adjustment, New Releases!" - GW
From the Warhammer Community article in my previous post...
What’s in a codex? Each codex is a dedicated book about a single faction from the Warhammer 40,000 setting and game. They contain a wealth of inspirational background, artwork, heraldry and miniatures photography for that army, and because that faction is the sole focus of the book, they also contain far more detailed army-specific rules than we could hope to cover in the index books.
What’s in the codex that’s not in the index? Good question.
Codexes, of course, allow us to focus on a faction in more detail than we could ever hope to in an index book. Alongside new expanded and updated background, you’ll find a wealth of rules content: army specific Stratagems, Relics, Warlord Traits, Tactical Objectives, psychic powers and more besides. We’ve listened carefully to what you liked in your codexes in the last edition of Warhammer 40,000, and what you wanted to see this time around, and we’re pretty confident we got it all in.
So it seems that they were pretty straightforward in stating that the indexes were not going to be on par with the codexes.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/06/07 21:47:04
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
2020/06/07 23:20:15
Subject: "Heads-up: Price Adjustment, New Releases!" - GW
stratigo wrote: The example of inelastic demand is to underline the point that business is NOT ethical. It doesn't work for the benefit of the consumer.
These two things are not related.
Of course a retailer doesn't work for the benefit of the consumer. The purpose of a retail business is to sell things to consumers. The only 'benefit' to the consumer is that they can buy things that they want or need.
An ethical business is one that conducts their business in an ethical fashion. Choosing to raise your prices on a luxury product is nothing whatsoever to do with ethical practices.
2020/06/07 23:29:00
Subject: "Heads-up: Price Adjustment, New Releases!" - GW
Abusing monopolistic Market Position is pretty unethical though especially if you play twoface. Heck even Smith knew that.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2020/06/07 23:33:24
Subject: Re:"Heads-up: Price Adjustment, New Releases!" - GW
Ghaz wrote: From the Warhammer Community article in my previous post...
What’s in a codex? Each codex is a dedicated book about a single faction from the Warhammer 40,000 setting and game. They contain a wealth of inspirational background, artwork, heraldry and miniatures photography for that army, and because that faction is the sole focus of the book, they also contain far more detailed army-specific rules than we could hope to cover in the index books.
What’s in the codex that’s not in the index? Good question.
Codexes, of course, allow us to focus on a faction in more detail than we could ever hope to in an index book. Alongside new expanded and updated background, you’ll find a wealth of rules content: army specific Stratagems, Relics, Warlord Traits, Tactical Objectives, psychic powers and more besides. We’ve listened carefully to what you liked in your codexes in the last edition of Warhammer 40,000, and what you wanted to see this time around, and we’re pretty confident we got it all in.
So it seems that they were pretty straightforward in stating that the indexes were not going to be on par with the codexes.
as far as I can tell the idea that indiexes where anything more then a stopgap is a delusion powered by the fans
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2020/06/07 23:46:07
Subject: Re:"Heads-up: Price Adjustment, New Releases!" - GW
Those upset about higher GW prices are absolutely allowed to stop buying. We are not talking about bread. Those willing to pay those prices are, likewise, allowed to pay those prices. GW will charge the price that the market will bear.
I find GW expensive, but generally good value. I consider before I buy. Will this box of toy soldiers bring me happiness? Will I enjoy having it? Will I enjoy building and painting it? Will I enjoy playing it? How much will I play it?
Those three boxes of Ravenwing Black Knights cost me $180 CAD or roughly $20 CAD per model. I enjoyed adding them to my army. I actually enjoyed assembling them over a few evenings: enough flexibility in posing to have a little freedom without getting out of my depth. Painting was a pleasant week. How many games have I played with them? Looking over my notes at least 50 competitive Matched Play/Tournament games over 3 years, never mind games of basement-hammer. I think I got my money's worth.
Will I buy another Land Raider? Probably not. I've had maybe five games over 20 years with it. Its a nice display piece, but I won't rush out and buy another. Someone else, however, might get great value out of a Land Raider purchase. Did the money I spent on metal Gargoyles for my kid's Xmas stocking seem worth it when the models were very hard to assemble and they constantly fell over on the tabletop to point that they ended up in the bottom of the bitz drawer? You win some and you lose some.
All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand
2020/06/08 00:27:38
Subject: "Heads-up: Price Adjustment, New Releases!" - GW
Not Online!!! wrote: Abusing monopolistic Market Position is pretty unethical though especially if you play twoface. Heck even Smith knew that.
While they are a large producer and undoubtedly the 'big dog' in the industry, it is blatantly false to claim that GW has any kind of 'monopoly' on miniatures gaming. There are tons of alternatives at all kinds of price points and quality for fantasy, scifi, and historical miniatures gaming. GW = monopoly FAIL. The only 'monopoly' they have is on their own products. Which one is totally free not to buy and seek out the many alternatives. Doesn't sound like such a great 'monopoly' to me. When GW is the only company out there and they are forcing you to buy their products at their prices, come back to me.
2020/06/08 00:43:30
Subject: "Heads-up: Price Adjustment, New Releases!" - GW
Not Online!!! wrote: Abusing monopolistic Market Position is pretty unethical though especially if you play twoface. Heck even Smith knew that.
While they are a large producer and undoubtedly the 'big dog' in the industry, it is blatantly false to claim that GW has any kind of 'monopoly' on miniatures gaming. There are tons of alternatives at all kinds of price points and quality for fantasy, scifi, and historical miniatures gaming. GW = monopoly FAIL. The only 'monopoly' they have is on their own products. Which one is totally free not to buy and seek out the many alternatives. Doesn't sound like such a great 'monopoly' to me. When GW is the only company out there and they are forcing you to buy their products at their prices, come back to me.
Depends on where you're at doesn't it? For many people gw is the only option, unless you want to play games by yourself. If everyone in your area is only playing gw games and you want to play a game then your only option is gw.
2020/06/08 00:47:29
Subject: "Heads-up: Price Adjustment, New Releases!" - GW
Not Online!!! wrote: Abusing monopolistic Market Position is pretty unethical though especially if you play twoface. Heck even Smith knew that.
While they are a large producer and undoubtedly the 'big dog' in the industry, it is blatantly false to claim that GW has any kind of 'monopoly' on miniatures gaming. There are tons of alternatives at all kinds of price points and quality for fantasy, scifi, and historical miniatures gaming. GW = monopoly FAIL. The only 'monopoly' they have is on their own products. Which one is totally free not to buy and seek out the many alternatives. Doesn't sound like such a great 'monopoly' to me. When GW is the only company out there and they are forcing you to buy their products at their prices, come back to me.
Depends on where you're at doesn't it? For many people gw is the only option, unless you want to play games by yourself. If everyone in your area is only playing gw games and you want to play a game then your only option is gw.
I don't think that any person in the world is in this position.
2020/06/08 01:15:16
Subject: "Heads-up: Price Adjustment, New Releases!" - GW
Not Online!!! wrote: Abusing monopolistic Market Position is pretty unethical though especially if you play twoface. Heck even Smith knew that.
While they are a large producer and undoubtedly the 'big dog' in the industry, it is blatantly false to claim that GW has any kind of 'monopoly' on miniatures gaming. There are tons of alternatives at all kinds of price points and quality for fantasy, scifi, and historical miniatures gaming. GW = monopoly FAIL. The only 'monopoly' they have is on their own products. Which one is totally free not to buy and seek out the many alternatives. Doesn't sound like such a great 'monopoly' to me. When GW is the only company out there and they are forcing you to buy their products at their prices, come back to me.
What's more, nothing they make is important to society. GW's business isn't food or water or housing or transportation or information or healthcare or energy, etc. It could monopolize tabletop wargaming and it'd hardly matter, ethically speaking. Ultimately GW operates in the tiniest sliver of the big pie of leisure time entertainment. GW has PLENTY of competition for time and money no matter how much they dominate their little sub-sub-sub-sub-sub-sector.
I think some people confuse Monopoly on miniatures with monopoly on GW IP minatures. And Gw does for better or worse have a monopoly on GW Ip minatures. So I get why a price rise might feel unjust due to this.
Do you feel there is value in the product? If so you pay and consume and if you don't you don't. This is perhaps why I cant understand peoples position because its a fairly simple choice in my mind.
Regarding the show of hands: I haven't been priced out of "GW hobby" just yet but its certainly gave me pause for though and I have been looking at other stuff.
I have slowly started to diverge into other avenues of wargaming/minatures. even bought my first non GW minatures from Mierce this year for painting. Planing on getting a bunch more
Certainly if it wasn't for ebay and a good deal of wheeling and dealing and I had to get GW stuff at GW prices Id probably be in another system/hobby because their prices are stupid. But also.. GW can charge whatever GW wants *shrugs*
ALSO: Some great tips on budgeting thrifting etc. Sometime you just have to be patient or do some extra leg work if money is tight (Im all about stripping those OOP metals warp spiders...)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/08 01:26:01
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Not Online!!! wrote: Abusing monopolistic Market Position is pretty unethical though especially if you play twoface. Heck even Smith knew that.
While they are a large producer and undoubtedly the 'big dog' in the industry, it is blatantly false to claim that GW has any kind of 'monopoly' on miniatures gaming. There are tons of alternatives at all kinds of price points and quality for fantasy, scifi, and historical miniatures gaming. GW = monopoly FAIL. The only 'monopoly' they have is on their own products. Which one is totally free not to buy and seek out the many alternatives. Doesn't sound like such a great 'monopoly' to me. When GW is the only company out there and they are forcing you to buy their products at their prices, come back to me.
Depends on where you're at doesn't it? For many people gw is the only option, unless you want to play games by yourself. If everyone in your area is only playing gw games and you want to play a game then your only option is gw.
I don't think that any person in the world is in this position.
Sorry, maybe I should have been more specific. If you want to play a wargame and not travel long distances. Where I live (rural Appalachia) if you want to play a wargame and don't want to travel over 50 miles? It's probably going to be a gw game. It's just the most common thing. So if you want to play a wargame you need some gw stuff. Does this bother me? No, I like gw's games for the most part and love the setting. Doesn't change the fact. If you like some other wargame but the few other gamers in your county don't? You play what they like or you don't play without travelling to find someone who wants to play your game. Everyone doesn't have equal capacity to travel.
2020/06/08 01:56:57
Subject: "Heads-up: Price Adjustment, New Releases!" - GW
soviet13 wrote: Quick show of hands: has anyone in this thread been priced out of the hobby by this price increase?
Not in the slightest. This is the cheapest hobby I have and usually if my hobby budget is low I'll buy something from my FLGS.
Check the costs for modding a sports car, the cost of fishing, and the cost of renovating your house if you want to see expensive hobbies/projects. I don't even own a boat and I drop $300-$400 a month fishing. This is also the more low risk consistent reward for hobbying as well.
My beer math is the cost of what I buy vs the amount of time I use it is my overall product value. If I buy a $60 dollar box of Space Marines and I gain the enjoyment of building, priming, and assembling them for 15 hrs this means to me they are valued $4 an hour. That is much cheaper than going to a movie or some of my other hobbies. My Roush Cold Air Intake was $500. That took me an hour to two hours to install. It works for me every time I drive my car but it was a luxury install for me to get to work on my car. Thats one of the cheaper mods I've put on my car.
Its also obvious in this thread who has worked in top/mid/low level jobs. Profits drive so much more for a Company than just lining the pockets of the CEO, COO, or shareholders. If you want those top tier sculptors, artists, authors, and painters to work for GW they need to have the monetary edge to hire/develop that level of talent.
If you don't want to buy into the hobby or continue purchasing from a specific company then don't. But don't blame the company for running a successful business and improving their product.
You're well-off enough to spend $300-$400 a month on just one of your hobbies. Good for you. Saying it is "obvious" which of us has "worked top/mid/low level jobs" is unnecessary, condescending, and classist. Peoples' circumstances vary widely, Comparing plastic model kits to a sports car, or renovating your house is absurd. These things are not similar. GW minis may be less expensive than loading your ferrari onto your yacht to take to a race somewhere, but GW minis are quite poor value- this is what many in the thread are failing to grasp- for what you receive in the box in exchange for your $$$. The expectation many players have is that toy soldiers is a hobby easily enjoyed by the middle-class.
As for the " sculptors, artists, authors, and painters"........... most of those employed by GW are far from "top tier." It's quite clear that the majority of the sculptors lack any artistic talent, nor do they do any research for their projects.. The art is generic and frankly cheap-looking. Now, I haven't read many of the books, but it appears the near-universal agreement is that they are very inconsistent in quality, Whomever paints GW minis now does a terrible job, with the insistence on drawing attention to every. single. piece. of. detail. on. every. model.. GW has not improved their product as a whole (though some are quite good, like new Sisters). The greatest improvement made by the Rountree regime is in marketing.
2020/06/08 02:04:30
Subject: "Heads-up: Price Adjustment, New Releases!" - GW
soviet13 wrote: Quick show of hands: has anyone in this thread been priced out of the hobby by this price increase?
Not in the slightest. This is the cheapest hobby I have and usually if my hobby budget is low I'll buy something from my FLGS.
Check the costs for modding a sports car, the cost of fishing, and the cost of renovating your house if you want to see expensive hobbies/projects. I don't even own a boat and I drop $300-$400 a month fishing. This is also the more low risk consistent reward for hobbying as well.
My beer math is the cost of what I buy vs the amount of time I use it is my overall product value. If I buy a $60 dollar box of Space Marines and I gain the enjoyment of building, priming, and assembling them for 15 hrs this means to me they are valued $4 an hour. That is much cheaper than going to a movie or some of my other hobbies. My Roush Cold Air Intake was $500. That took me an hour to two hours to install. It works for me every time I drive my car but it was a luxury install for me to get to work on my car. Thats one of the cheaper mods I've put on my car.
Its also obvious in this thread who has worked in top/mid/low level jobs. Profits drive so much more for a Company than just lining the pockets of the CEO, COO, or shareholders. If you want those top tier sculptors, artists, authors, and painters to work for GW they need to have the monetary edge to hire/develop that level of talent.
If you don't want to buy into the hobby or continue purchasing from a specific company then don't. But don't blame the company for running a successful business and improving their product.
You're well-off enough to spend $300-$400 a month on just one of your hobbies. Good for you. Saying it is "obvious" which of us has "worked top/mid/low level jobs" is unnecessary, condescending, and classist. Peoples' circumstances vary widely, Comparing plastic model kits to a sports car, or renovating your house is absurd. These things are not similar. GW minis may be less expensive than loading your ferrari onto your yacht to take to a race somewhere, but GW minis are quite poor value- this is what many in the thread are failing to grasp- for what you receive in the box in exchange for your $$$. The expectation many players have is that toy soldiers is a hobby easily enjoyed by the middle-class.
As for the " sculptors, artists, authors, and painters"........... most of those employed by GW are far from "top tier." It's quite clear that the majority of the sculptors lack any artistic talent, nor do they do any research for their projects.. The art is generic and frankly cheap-looking. Now, I haven't read many of the books, but it appears the near-universal agreement is that they are very inconsistent in quality, Whomever paints GW minis now does a terrible job, with the insistence on drawing attention to every. single. piece. of. detail. on. every. model.. GW has not improved their product as a whole (though some are quite good, like new Sisters). The greatest improvement made by the Rountree regime is in marketing.
So it's a terrible product and you're furious you can't afford more of it? LOL.
Not Online!!! wrote: Abusing monopolistic Market Position is pretty unethical though especially if you play twoface. Heck even Smith knew that.
While they are a large producer and undoubtedly the 'big dog' in the industry, it is blatantly false to claim that GW has any kind of 'monopoly' on miniatures gaming. There are tons of alternatives at all kinds of price points and quality for fantasy, scifi, and historical miniatures gaming. GW = monopoly FAIL. The only 'monopoly' they have is on their own products. Which one is totally free not to buy and seek out the many alternatives. Doesn't sound like such a great 'monopoly' to me. When GW is the only company out there and they are forcing you to buy their products at their prices, come back to me.
Depends on where you're at doesn't it? For many people gw is the only option, unless you want to play games by yourself. If everyone in your area is only playing gw games and you want to play a game then your only option is gw.
I don't think that any person in the world is in this position.
Sorry, maybe I should have been more specific. If you want to play a wargame and not travel long distances. Where I live (rural Appalachia) if you want to play a wargame and don't want to travel over 50 miles? It's probably going to be a gw game. It's just the most common thing. So if you want to play a wargame you need some gw stuff. Does this bother me? No, I like gw's games for the most part and love the setting. Doesn't change the fact. If you like some other wargame but the few other gamers in your county don't? You play what they like or you don't play without travelling to find someone who wants to play your game. Everyone doesn't have equal capacity to travel.
OK I hear what you're saying but it doesn't make GW a monopoly even in your area. There will always be someone who will try a non-GW game, whether that is a GW fanboy trying something different just once or even a non-wargaming friend or family member you can convince to give it a go. There is literally no barrier to any other game being played anywhere except for the personal preferences of individual customers. That's not a monopoly.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/08 02:12:20
2020/06/08 02:13:22
Subject: "Heads-up: Price Adjustment, New Releases!" - GW
Criticizing the quality of GW's models seems a bit churlish. They're not uniformly wonderful, and there are a few kits that are really bad, usually more in terms of design than style (e.g. Eldar Support Weapon platforms where the seated crew member doesn't have a specially sculpted torso, so it doesn't fit right on top of the seated legs or into the chair provided). There's even a few kits that really are just bad quality - electropriests come to mind here. But in general, there isn't another miniatures company out there with either higher overall quality or better overall design.
It's fair to question whether a lot of the kits are good value for money, but not their quality in the abstract.
The exception to this is the failcast series, I think those deserve all the scorn you can heap on them. Luckily they have stopped making them.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/06/08 02:17:36
2020/06/08 02:15:31
Subject: "Heads-up: Price Adjustment, New Releases!" - GW
soviet13 wrote: Quick show of hands: has anyone in this thread been priced out of the hobby by this price increase?
I haven't. I've been spending 20€ a month on 40k for some time and will continue to do so. If the stuff I want got more expensive (most didn't), my order will be send out a month later or so.
I guess eventually there will be a theoretical point in time when I'm priced out of the hobby, that's at least a decade of raising prices down the road.
That said, there are some kits I just don't being see worth their price - most notably the single plague marines blisters or chaos spawns. The simple solution is to just not buy them or get them cheap when scalpers sell parts of the conquest magazine.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
2020/06/08 02:25:47
Subject: "Heads-up: Price Adjustment, New Releases!" - GW
yukishiro1 wrote: Criticizing the quality of GW's models seems a bit churlish. They're not uniformly wonderful, and there are a few kits that are really bad, usually more in terms of design than style (e.g. Eldar Support Weapon platforms where the seated crew member doesn't have a specially sculpted torso, so it doesn't fit right on top of the seated legs or into the chair provided). There's even a few kits that really are just bad quality - electropriests come to mind here. But in general, there isn't another miniatures company out there with either higher overall quality or better overall design.
It's fair to question whether a lot of the kits are good value for money, but not their quality in the abstract.
The exception to this is the failcast series, I think those deserve all the scorn you can heap on them. Luckily they have stopped making them.
Agreed here. I've built a wide variety of models during lockdown (tackling the pile of shame) and I've seen very clearly the improvement from some older plastics like burna boyz and the OG landspeeder to the new stuff like primaris and sisters which were just a joy to work on. I've also put together some old metals like the khorne champion on juggernaught and remembered how much of a PITA they were. Never had the pleasure of failcast though (and never will!).
2020/06/08 02:57:39
Subject: "Heads-up: Price Adjustment, New Releases!" - GW
soviet13 wrote: Quick show of hands: has anyone in this thread been priced out of the hobby by this price increase?
Not in the slightest. This is the cheapest hobby I have and usually if my hobby budget is low I'll buy something from my FLGS.
Check the costs for modding a sports car, the cost of fishing, and the cost of renovating your house if you want to see expensive hobbies/projects. I don't even own a boat and I drop $300-$400 a month fishing. This is also the more low risk consistent reward for hobbying as well.
My beer math is the cost of what I buy vs the amount of time I use it is my overall product value. If I buy a $60 dollar box of Space Marines and I gain the enjoyment of building, priming, and assembling them for 15 hrs this means to me they are valued $4 an hour. That is much cheaper than going to a movie or some of my other hobbies. My Roush Cold Air Intake was $500. That took me an hour to two hours to install. It works for me every time I drive my car but it was a luxury install for me to get to work on my car. Thats one of the cheaper mods I've put on my car.
Its also obvious in this thread who has worked in top/mid/low level jobs. Profits drive so much more for a Company than just lining the pockets of the CEO, COO, or shareholders. If you want those top tier sculptors, artists, authors, and painters to work for GW they need to have the monetary edge to hire/develop that level of talent.
If you don't want to buy into the hobby or continue purchasing from a specific company then don't. But don't blame the company for running a successful business and improving their product.
You're well-off enough to spend $300-$400 a month on just one of your hobbies. Good for you. Saying it is "obvious" which of us has "worked top/mid/low level jobs" is unnecessary, condescending, and classist. Peoples' circumstances vary widely, Comparing plastic model kits to a sports car, or renovating your house is absurd. These things are not similar. GW minis may be less expensive than loading your ferrari onto your yacht to take to a race somewhere, but GW minis are quite poor value- this is what many in the thread are failing to grasp- for what you receive in the box in exchange for your $$$. The expectation many players have is that toy soldiers is a hobby easily enjoyed by the middle-class.
As for the " sculptors, artists, authors, and painters"........... most of those employed by GW are far from "top tier." It's quite clear that the majority of the sculptors lack any artistic talent, nor do they do any research for their projects.. The art is generic and frankly cheap-looking. Now, I haven't read many of the books, but it appears the near-universal agreement is that they are very inconsistent in quality, Whomever paints GW minis now does a terrible job, with the insistence on drawing attention to every. single. piece. of. detail. on. every. model.. GW has not improved their product as a whole (though some are quite good, like new Sisters). The greatest improvement made by the Rountree regime is in marketing.
So it's a terrible product and you're furious you can't afford more of it? LOL.
What a juvenile response.
Many of the recent kits, i.e., AOS and 8th edition 40k, are pretty awful. Not all, mind you, but many. Mostly by being cluttered with detail for the sake of detail, or bad poses. For every Intercessor there are 2-3 flying lobster marines, etc. I would certainly be happy to see AdMech, mini marines, sky dwarves, and some others' prices enter the realm of sanity, yes. I no longer play 40k, and won't so long as the rules remain oversimplified, messy, and poorly balanced, but for those GW minis I do like, there are other games in which to play them.
I'm actually just jumping back into LOTR, and picked up the Pelennor Fields box (paid for in part by a gift card), after several years of not buying GW, and may go no further with it considering the prices even on LOTR kits have become unreasonable- not to mention the fact that GW separated the core rules and model profiles and into two separate $60 books.......
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/08 03:44:51
2020/06/08 03:33:46
Subject: "Heads-up: Price Adjustment, New Releases!" - GW
Sorry, maybe I should have been more specific. If you want to play a wargame and not travel long distances. Where I live (rural Appalachia) if you want to play a wargame and don't want to travel over 50 miles? It's probably going to be a gw game. It's just the most common thing. So if you want to play a wargame you need some gw stuff. Does this bother me? No, I like gw's games for the most part and love the setting. Doesn't change the fact. If you like some other wargame but the few other gamers in your county don't? You play what they like or you don't play without travelling to find someone who wants to play your game. Everyone doesn't have equal capacity to travel.
Bluntly, one of the worst things to have to put up with in trying to get traction with other games here in the US? You have to be willing to do the legwork to get it traction.
You have to:
-Convince a shopowner to stock the product's "core" range.
-Run demos. This means getting the shopowner to get you table space for gaming too!
-Be willing to put your money where your mouth is and get not just the army you're interested in, but a small sampling of the factions to let people see what there is.
It's a lot of work and it requires a patience and/or devotion of time and effort that not many people have available, and that's not even factoring in the whole bit about finding a friendly shop to work in tandem with.
2020/06/08 03:38:03
Subject: "Heads-up: Price Adjustment, New Releases!" - GW
soviet13 wrote: Quick show of hands: has anyone in this thread been priced out of the hobby by this price increase?
Not in the slightest. This is the cheapest hobby I have and usually if my hobby budget is low I'll buy something from my FLGS.
Check the costs for modding a sports car, the cost of fishing, and the cost of renovating your house if you want to see expensive hobbies/projects. I don't even own a boat and I drop $300-$400 a month fishing. This is also the more low risk consistent reward for hobbying as well.
My beer math is the cost of what I buy vs the amount of time I use it is my overall product value. If I buy a $60 dollar box of Space Marines and I gain the enjoyment of building, priming, and assembling them for 15 hrs this means to me they are valued $4 an hour. That is much cheaper than going to a movie or some of my other hobbies. My Roush Cold Air Intake was $500. That took me an hour to two hours to install. It works for me every time I drive my car but it was a luxury install for me to get to work on my car. Thats one of the cheaper mods I've put on my car.
Its also obvious in this thread who has worked in top/mid/low level jobs. Profits drive so much more for a Company than just lining the pockets of the CEO, COO, or shareholders. If you want those top tier sculptors, artists, authors, and painters to work for GW they need to have the monetary edge to hire/develop that level of talent.
If you don't want to buy into the hobby or continue purchasing from a specific company then don't. But don't blame the company for running a successful business and improving their product.
You're well-off enough to spend $300-$400 a month on just one of your hobbies. Good for you. Saying it is "obvious" which of us has "worked top/mid/low level jobs" is unnecessary, condescending, and classist. Peoples' circumstances vary widely, Comparing plastic model kits to a sports car, or renovating your house is absurd. These things are not similar. GW minis may be less expensive than loading your ferrari onto your yacht to take to a race somewhere, but GW minis are quite poor value- this is what many in the thread are failing to grasp- for what you receive in the box in exchange for your $$$. The expectation many players have is that toy soldiers is a hobby easily enjoyed by the middle-class.
As for the " sculptors, artists, authors, and painters"........... most of those employed by GW are far from "top tier." It's quite clear that the majority of the sculptors lack any artistic talent, nor do they do any research for their projects.. The art is generic and frankly cheap-looking. Now, I haven't read many of the books, but it appears the near-universal agreement is that they are very inconsistent in quality, Whomever paints GW minis now does a terrible job, with the insistence on drawing attention to every. single. piece. of. detail. on. every. model.. GW has not improved their product as a whole (though some are quite good, like new Sisters). The greatest improvement made by the Rountree regime is in marketing.
So it's a terrible product and you're furious you can't afford more of it? LOL.
What a juvenile response.
Many of the recent kits, i.e., AOS and 8th edition 40k, I find to be pretty awful. Not all, mind you, but many. Mostly by being cluttered with detail for the sake of detail, or bad poses. For every Intercessor there are 2-3 flying lobster marines, etc. I would certainly be happy to see AdMech, mini marines, sky dwarves, and some others' prices enter the realm of sanity, yes. I no longer play 40k, and won't so long as the rules remain oversimplified, messy, and poorly balanced, but for those GW minis I do like, there are other games in which to play them.
I'm actually just jumping back into LOTR, and picked up the Pelennor Fields box (paid for in part by a gift card), after several years of not buying GW, and may go no further with it considering the prices even on LOTR kits have become unreasonable- not to mention the fact that GW separated the core rules and model profiles and into two separate $60 books.......
Not going to defend GWs pricing across the board but the LotR Army books are pretty fantastic value compared to the other two systems.
BlaxicanX wrote: A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.
2020/06/08 03:44:14
Subject: "Heads-up: Price Adjustment, New Releases!" - GW
soviet13 wrote: Quick show of hands: has anyone in this thread been priced out of the hobby by this price increase?
Not in the slightest. This is the cheapest hobby I have and usually if my hobby budget is low I'll buy something from my FLGS.
Check the costs for modding a sports car, the cost of fishing, and the cost of renovating your house if you want to see expensive hobbies/projects. I don't even own a boat and I drop $300-$400 a month fishing. This is also the more low risk consistent reward for hobbying as well.
My beer math is the cost of what I buy vs the amount of time I use it is my overall product value. If I buy a $60 dollar box of Space Marines and I gain the enjoyment of building, priming, and assembling them for 15 hrs this means to me they are valued $4 an hour. That is much cheaper than going to a movie or some of my other hobbies. My Roush Cold Air Intake was $500. That took me an hour to two hours to install. It works for me every time I drive my car but it was a luxury install for me to get to work on my car. Thats one of the cheaper mods I've put on my car.
Its also obvious in this thread who has worked in top/mid/low level jobs. Profits drive so much more for a Company than just lining the pockets of the CEO, COO, or shareholders. If you want those top tier sculptors, artists, authors, and painters to work for GW they need to have the monetary edge to hire/develop that level of talent.
If you don't want to buy into the hobby or continue purchasing from a specific company then don't. But don't blame the company for running a successful business and improving their product.
You're well-off enough to spend $300-$400 a month on just one of your hobbies. Good for you. Saying it is "obvious" which of us has "worked top/mid/low level jobs" is unnecessary, condescending, and classist. Peoples' circumstances vary widely, Comparing plastic model kits to a sports car, or renovating your house is absurd. These things are not similar. GW minis may be less expensive than loading your ferrari onto your yacht to take to a race somewhere, but GW minis are quite poor value- this is what many in the thread are failing to grasp- for what you receive in the box in exchange for your $$$. The expectation many players have is that toy soldiers is a hobby easily enjoyed by the middle-class.
As for the " sculptors, artists, authors, and painters"........... most of those employed by GW are far from "top tier." It's quite clear that the majority of the sculptors lack any artistic talent, nor do they do any research for their projects.. The art is generic and frankly cheap-looking. Now, I haven't read many of the books, but it appears the near-universal agreement is that they are very inconsistent in quality, Whomever paints GW minis now does a terrible job, with the insistence on drawing attention to every. single. piece. of. detail. on. every. model.. GW has not improved their product as a whole (though some are quite good, like new Sisters). The greatest improvement made by the Rountree regime is in marketing.
So it's a terrible product and you're furious you can't afford more of it? LOL.
What a juvenile response.
Many of the recent kits, i.e., AOS and 8th edition 40k, I find to be pretty awful. Not all, mind you, but many. Mostly by being cluttered with detail for the sake of detail, or bad poses. For every Intercessor there are 2-3 flying lobster marines, etc. I would certainly be happy to see AdMech, mini marines, sky dwarves, and some others' prices enter the realm of sanity, yes. I no longer play 40k, and won't so long as the rules remain oversimplified, messy, and poorly balanced, but for those GW minis I do like, there are other games in which to play them.
I'm actually just jumping back into LOTR, and picked up the Pelennor Fields box (paid for in part by a gift card), after several years of not buying GW, and may go no further with it considering the prices even on LOTR kits have become unreasonable- not to mention the fact that GW separated the core rules and model profiles and into two separate $60 books.......
Not going to defend GWs pricing across the board but the LotR Army books are pretty fantastic value compared to the other two systems.
$60 each? Admittedly they're condensed into two books (Armies of The Lord of the Rings and Armies of The Hobbit), but how much of each book you'll need depends on how many armies in that book you play.
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
2020/06/08 03:44:24
Subject: "Heads-up: Price Adjustment, New Releases!" - GW
There aren't really Lord of the Ring "army books". They're more akin to campaign books once you go past the "Armies of Lord of the Rings"/"Armies of The Hobbit" bit.
I cannot recommend those faction cards enough though.
Stuff like this?
- 15x profile cards for the army of Rivendell
- 12x profile cards for the army of Lothlórien
- 19x profile cards for the army of The Kingdom of Khazad-dûm
- 3x Army Bonus cards
- 6x blank profile cards
It's pretty dang helpful to have.
2020/06/08 03:49:22
Subject: "Heads-up: Price Adjustment, New Releases!" - GW
soviet13 wrote: Quick show of hands: has anyone in this thread been priced out of the hobby by this price increase?
Not in the slightest. This is the cheapest hobby I have and usually if my hobby budget is low I'll buy something from my FLGS.
Check the costs for modding a sports car, the cost of fishing, and the cost of renovating your house if you want to see expensive hobbies/projects. I don't even own a boat and I drop $300-$400 a month fishing. This is also the more low risk consistent reward for hobbying as well.
My beer math is the cost of what I buy vs the amount of time I use it is my overall product value. If I buy a $60 dollar box of Space Marines and I gain the enjoyment of building, priming, and assembling them for 15 hrs this means to me they are valued $4 an hour. That is much cheaper than going to a movie or some of my other hobbies. My Roush Cold Air Intake was $500. That took me an hour to two hours to install. It works for me every time I drive my car but it was a luxury install for me to get to work on my car. Thats one of the cheaper mods I've put on my car.
Its also obvious in this thread who has worked in top/mid/low level jobs. Profits drive so much more for a Company than just lining the pockets of the CEO, COO, or shareholders. If you want those top tier sculptors, artists, authors, and painters to work for GW they need to have the monetary edge to hire/develop that level of talent.
If you don't want to buy into the hobby or continue purchasing from a specific company then don't. But don't blame the company for running a successful business and improving their product.
You're well-off enough to spend $300-$400 a month on just one of your hobbies. Good for you. Saying it is "obvious" which of us has "worked top/mid/low level jobs" is unnecessary, condescending, and classist. Peoples' circumstances vary widely, Comparing plastic model kits to a sports car, or renovating your house is absurd. These things are not similar. GW minis may be less expensive than loading your ferrari onto your yacht to take to a race somewhere, but GW minis are quite poor value- this is what many in the thread are failing to grasp- for what you receive in the box in exchange for your $$$. The expectation many players have is that toy soldiers is a hobby easily enjoyed by the middle-class.
As for the " sculptors, artists, authors, and painters"........... most of those employed by GW are far from "top tier." It's quite clear that the majority of the sculptors lack any artistic talent, nor do they do any research for their projects.. The art is generic and frankly cheap-looking. Now, I haven't read many of the books, but it appears the near-universal agreement is that they are very inconsistent in quality, Whomever paints GW minis now does a terrible job, with the insistence on drawing attention to every. single. piece. of. detail. on. every. model.. GW has not improved their product as a whole (though some are quite good, like new Sisters). The greatest improvement made by the Rountree regime is in marketing.
So it's a terrible product and you're furious you can't afford more of it? LOL.
What a juvenile response.
Many of the recent kits, i.e., AOS and 8th edition 40k, I find to be pretty awful. Not all, mind you, but many. Mostly by being cluttered with detail for the sake of detail, or bad poses. For every Intercessor there are 2-3 flying lobster marines, etc. I would certainly be happy to see AdMech, mini marines, sky dwarves, and some others' prices enter the realm of sanity, yes. I no longer play 40k, and won't so long as the rules remain oversimplified, messy, and poorly balanced, but for those GW minis I do like, there are other games in which to play them.
I'm actually just jumping back into LOTR, and picked up the Pelennor Fields box (paid for in part by a gift card), after several years of not buying GW, and may go no further with it considering the prices even on LOTR kits have become unreasonable- not to mention the fact that GW separated the core rules and model profiles and into two separate $60 books.......
Not going to defend GWs pricing across the board but the LotR Army books are pretty fantastic value compared to the other two systems.
Good to hear. Looking at all the books available was a bit concerning.
Kanluwen wrote:There aren't really Lord of the Ring "army books". They're more akin to campaign books once you go past the "Armies of Lord of the Rings"/"Armies of The Hobbit" bit.
I cannot recommend those faction cards enough though.
Stuff like this?
- 15x profile cards for the army of Rivendell
- 12x profile cards for the army of Lothlórien
- 19x profile cards for the army of The Kingdom of Khazad-dûm
- 3x Army Bonus cards
- 6x blank profile cards
It's pretty dang helpful to have.
Yeah, it was Armies of the Lord of the Rings I had in mind. I need that in addition to the main book that came in the box set if i want to expand my Riders or Mordor/Angmar. I enjoyed having everything in one book back when the range was smaller. I'll have to look those cards up, they do sound useful.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/08 03:49:57
2020/06/08 03:56:59
Subject: "Heads-up: Price Adjustment, New Releases!" - GW
soviet13 wrote: Quick show of hands: has anyone in this thread been priced out of the hobby by this price increase?
Not in the slightest. This is the cheapest hobby I have and usually if my hobby budget is low I'll buy something from my FLGS.
Check the costs for modding a sports car, the cost of fishing, and the cost of renovating your house if you want to see expensive hobbies/projects. I don't even own a boat and I drop $300-$400 a month fishing. This is also the more low risk consistent reward for hobbying as well.
My beer math is the cost of what I buy vs the amount of time I use it is my overall product value. If I buy a $60 dollar box of Space Marines and I gain the enjoyment of building, priming, and assembling them for 15 hrs this means to me they are valued $4 an hour. That is much cheaper than going to a movie or some of my other hobbies. My Roush Cold Air Intake was $500. That took me an hour to two hours to install. It works for me every time I drive my car but it was a luxury install for me to get to work on my car. Thats one of the cheaper mods I've put on my car.
Its also obvious in this thread who has worked in top/mid/low level jobs. Profits drive so much more for a Company than just lining the pockets of the CEO, COO, or shareholders. If you want those top tier sculptors, artists, authors, and painters to work for GW they need to have the monetary edge to hire/develop that level of talent.
If you don't want to buy into the hobby or continue purchasing from a specific company then don't. But don't blame the company for running a successful business and improving their product.
You're well-off enough to spend $300-$400 a month on just one of your hobbies. Good for you. Saying it is "obvious" which of us has "worked top/mid/low level jobs" is unnecessary, condescending, and classist. Peoples' circumstances vary widely, Comparing plastic model kits to a sports car, or renovating your house is absurd. These things are not similar. GW minis may be less expensive than loading your ferrari onto your yacht to take to a race somewhere, but GW minis are quite poor value- this is what many in the thread are failing to grasp- for what you receive in the box in exchange for your $$$. The expectation many players have is that toy soldiers is a hobby easily enjoyed by the middle-class.
As for the " sculptors, artists, authors, and painters"........... most of those employed by GW are far from "top tier." It's quite clear that the majority of the sculptors lack any artistic talent, nor do they do any research for their projects.. The art is generic and frankly cheap-looking. Now, I haven't read many of the books, but it appears the near-universal agreement is that they are very inconsistent in quality, Whomever paints GW minis now does a terrible job, with the insistence on drawing attention to every. single. piece. of. detail. on. every. model.. GW has not improved their product as a whole (though some are quite good, like new Sisters). The greatest improvement made by the Rountree regime is in marketing.
So it's a terrible product and you're furious you can't afford more of it? LOL.
What a juvenile response.
Many of the recent kits, i.e., AOS and 8th edition 40k, I find to be pretty awful. Not all, mind you, but many. Mostly by being cluttered with detail for the sake of detail, or bad poses. For every Intercessor there are 2-3 flying lobster marines, etc. I would certainly be happy to see AdMech, mini marines, sky dwarves, and some others' prices enter the realm of sanity, yes. I no longer play 40k, and won't so long as the rules remain oversimplified, messy, and poorly balanced, but for those GW minis I do like, there are other games in which to play them.
I'm actually just jumping back into LOTR, and picked up the Pelennor Fields box (paid for in part by a gift card), after several years of not buying GW, and may go no further with it considering the prices even on LOTR kits have become unreasonable- not to mention the fact that GW separated the core rules and model profiles and into two separate $60 books.......
Not going to defend GWs pricing across the board but the LotR Army books are pretty fantastic value compared to the other two systems.
$60 each? Admittedly they're condensed into two books (Armies of The Lord of the Rings and Armies of The Hobbit), but how much of each book you'll need depends on how many armies in that book you play.
Fair. But as the game is typically a smaller model count it's not unusual to have multiple forces. The LotR one is 244 pages covering every faction from the trilogy with 11 scenarios for recreating scenes from the books/films and no fluff (because that's obviously done better elsewhere)
It also has the strength of being useful to sell the game as anyone you show the game to who's interested can see how their favourite faction from the story plays right in your book. Nice little benefit for a game without a juggernaut playerbase.
Just seems to me that's far more appealing than the wasted space of recycled lore and a short rule section in the back of the other games.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/08 04:07:39
BlaxicanX wrote: A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.
2020/06/08 04:07:12
Subject: "Heads-up: Price Adjustment, New Releases!" - GW
Good to hear. Looking at all the books available was a bit concerning.
"War in Rohan" and "Gondor in Flames" are effectively 'supplement books'.
Kanluwen wrote:There aren't really Lord of the Ring "army books". They're more akin to campaign books once you go past the "Armies of Lord of the Rings"/"Armies of The Hobbit" bit.
I cannot recommend those faction cards enough though.
Stuff like this?
- 15x profile cards for the army of Rivendell
- 12x profile cards for the army of Lothlórien
- 19x profile cards for the army of The Kingdom of Khazad-dûm
- 3x Army Bonus cards
- 6x blank profile cards
It's pretty dang helpful to have.
Yeah, it was Armies of the Lord of the Rings I had in mind. I need that in addition to the main book that came in the box set if i want to expand my Riders or Mordor/Angmar. I enjoyed having everything in one book back when the range was smaller. I'll have to look those cards up, they do sound useful.
Grab them when you can, because they seem to go away after. I'm kicking myself for not getting the Gondor/Rohan ones after seeing those amazing Rangers from FW.
2020/06/08 10:14:55
Subject: "Heads-up: Price Adjustment, New Releases!" - GW
Sorry, maybe I should have been more specific. If you want to play a wargame and not travel long distances. Where I live (rural Appalachia) if you want to play a wargame and don't want to travel over 50 miles? It's probably going to be a gw game. It's just the most common thing. So if you want to play a wargame you need some gw stuff. Does this bother me? No, I like gw's games for the most part and love the setting. Doesn't change the fact. If you like some other wargame but the few other gamers in your county don't? You play what they like or you don't play without travelling to find someone who wants to play your game. Everyone doesn't have equal capacity to travel.
Bluntly, one of the worst things to have to put up with in trying to get traction with other games here in the US? You have to be willing to do the legwork to get it traction.
You have to:
-Convince a shopowner to stock the product's "core" range.
-Run demos. This means getting the shopowner to get you table space for gaming too!
-Be willing to put your money where your mouth is and get not just the army you're interested in, but a small sampling of the factions to let people see what there is.
It's a lot of work and it requires a patience and/or devotion of time and effort that not many people have available, and that's not even factoring in the whole bit about finding a friendly shop to work in tandem with.
Excellent points and quite true. I would add that finding such shops willing to take such risks is even harder when they are very few and far between.
2020/06/08 13:49:06
Subject: "Heads-up: Price Adjustment, New Releases!" - GW
I was "priced out" of gw-systems like 7 or 8 years ago. Not that i couldn t afford it, but like many here said that it didn t seem worth it value for money anymore. Plus i had gripes with the vector of the games going anyway. But value for money was the prevailent factor to start looking elsewhere.
I realized that a edition change would have cost me the same or more than starting a new subjectivly better tabletopsystem from scratch.(Moneywise not including hobbyhours). So i did it. I was very fortunate that a big enough part of my gaming group were doing the same.
I still own my painted fantasy and 40k armies, and will likely never sell them. I m still informing myself every once in a while about the gamestate and reevaluate if going back would be worth it. But the steady price increases tell me otherwise. Plus it's more than just the money now. Rules need to improve to to get me back.
Still was back for warhammer: underworlds season 1, but got priced out mid season 2 there as well... (by gws own blitzbowl no less, which scrates a similar itch for me)
Both great games btw.
This message was edited 10 times. Last update was at 2020/06/08 14:31:26
2020/06/08 23:54:51
Subject: "Heads-up: Price Adjustment, New Releases!" - GW
Not to reignite the fire but yes GW is not a monopoly, as has been mentioned in some areas they do have quite a firm hold. That isn't just in market presence it's also in what a store will stock, and how hard it is to get a game traction as has been mentioned. Time factors in as well however and GW has stood the test of time and I'm sure many players, and buyers get into GW knowing how long they've been around as a sign a buy in isn't a waste of money or can't at worst be flipped and sold off easily enough.
If you play card games its a similar place as MTG is in. They simply are the longest lasting top dog of card games so when people see it, they see magic, Warhammer benefits from that same brand position. They got there and so far it stays in motion all its own. GW however also does well in having so many of their own stores that helps keep that ball rolling for them and their survival ends up a self fulfilled prophecy as does it being often the only game in town in you want to table top war game.
2020/06/12 19:48:56
Subject: "Heads-up: Price Adjustment, New Releases!" - GW
AngryAngel80 wrote: Not to reignite the fire but yes GW is not a monopoly, as has been mentioned in some areas they do have quite a firm hold. That isn't just in market presence it's also in what a store will stock, and how hard it is to get a game traction as has been mentioned. Time factors in as well however and GW has stood the test of time and I'm sure many players, and buyers get into GW knowing how long they've been around as a sign a buy in isn't a waste of money or can't at worst be flipped and sold off easily enough.
If you play card games its a similar place as MTG is in. They simply are the longest lasting top dog of card games so when people see it, they see magic, Warhammer benefits from that same brand position. They got there and so far it stays in motion all its own. GW however also does well in having so many of their own stores that helps keep that ball rolling for them and their survival ends up a self fulfilled prophecy as does it being often the only game in town in you want to table top war game.
Monopolies don't only exist on a global market. If, in one area, the only miniature game being sold and played is GW, then GW holds a monopoly in that area even though they don't have a monopoly throughout the entire world.
This is actually the norm rather than the exception for much of the history of capitalism.
2020/06/12 22:04:18
Subject: "Heads-up: Price Adjustment, New Releases!" - GW
If one day no-one else is logged in to dakka, does that mean you have a monopoly on posting to dakka?
Not really, right? You may temporarily be the only poster. You may even be the only poster for hours. But you have no way to leverage that status over anyone else. You can't stop me logging in two minutes later, or ten more people logging in later that evening.
If there are no barriers to another game or company competing with GW, and GW themselves are taking no steps to exploit their market dominance to crush potential competitors, then I don't see how calling them a monopoly has any value.
)
Eldar- 4436 pts
