40k 9th edition, : App released page 413

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**Not Online!!!**

Wait 10and more , so an infantry squad allready counts as a Horde?

**Mr Morden**

Not Online!!! wrote:
Wait 10and more , so an infantry squad allready counts as a Horde?

Not with a heavy weapon they don;t!

Not sure how else they could have done it? And I assume its currently 10 models or more.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Wait 10and more , so an infantry squad allready counts as a Horde?

As far as I know that is not confirmed, just something some random person claimed to know as a "playtester."

**tneva82**

Not Online!!! wrote:
Wait 10and more , so an infantry squad allready counts as a Horde?

Unless they take hwt yes if it's 10 or more. Not official yet. Stream they said "big squads". 10 i have heard coming supposedly from playtester but a) could be in error b) was that really from playtester...internet is full of bogus.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mr Morden wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Wait 10and more , so an infantry squad allready counts as a Horde?

Not with a heavy weapon they don;t!

Not sure how else they could have done it? And I assume its currently 10 models or more.

How else? Howabout 20 or more?

**Argive**

Ice_can wrote:
Argive wrote:
Does anyone have a link to where I can watch he full stream ? has it been recorded on youtube or something ?

On the twitch channel as a subscriber is the best way.
Most if the youtube copys will be watchalongs with talking over the bit you want to hear.

I would rather not register a twitch account if I can....

**Eldarain**

tneva82 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Wait 10and more , so an infantry squad allready counts as a Horde?

Unless they take hwt yes if it's 10 or more. Not official yet. Stream they said "big squads". 10 i have heard coming supposedly from playtester but a) could be in error b) was that really from playtester...internet is full of bogus.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mr Morden wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Wait 10and more , so an infantry squad allready counts as a Horde?

Not with a heavy weapon they don;t!

Not sure how else they could have done it? And I assume its currently 10 models or more.

How else? Howabout 20 or more?

Power level? They must anticipate we'll just drop the last guy if it's a set number

**Not Online!!!**

Eldarain wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Wait 10and more , so an infantry squad allready counts as a Horde?

Unless they take hwt yes if it's 10 or more. Not official yet. Stream they said "big squads". 10 i have heard coming supposedly from playtester but a) could be in error b) was that really from playtester...internet is full of bogus.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mr Morden wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Wait 10and more , so an infantry squad allready counts as a Horde?

Not with a heavy weapon they don;t!

Not sure how else they could have done it? And I assume its currently 10 models or more.

How else? Howabout 20 or more?

Power level? They must anticipate we'll just drop the last guy if it's a set number

Personally, for me a Horde unit is:
More then 10 , aka 11+ aka the squads that go in size from 11-50 .
That is Horde for me, not the 10 dudes in flak armor or subflak armor.

E.g. conscripts, r&h militia squad with Lore then 10 members, mutants , ork boyz above the threshold .

Heck why should a 10 tac squad count as a Horde?

**Gadzilla666**

If hordes are capped at 10 I'd say we'll start seeing a lot of 9 man squads of meq and peq infantry.

Wait, so ten terminators is a horde?

**Bdrone**

Juust enough stuff to keep me very concerned.

so lemme see if i have this correct. costs command to set up reserves- don't know how many.

costs command to use extra detachments, and "based on total game size" is however many command points.

assumption- expect less CP in certain armies, but no idea how much as of yet.

this has me worried for Pure tempestus and gene stealer cults in specific. also quite funny to make infantry key in 8th, and then go "ehh, limit your detachments, please." now.

Monsters can also do the "tank" thing? do they just mean vehicles or what?

great, crusade rules for the codexes. i wonder if that means codexes will go up in price to account for them, even if again you have no interest in that ruleset- i have skirmish games for that where my people have a larger chance of survival per game.

How will morale affect armies like knights, if any? unknown.

how exactly did they chance overwatch and falling back.

...all of this has made me shelve my tempestus idea (along with the price raising) ill watch from Imperial Knights as perspective, but considering how little engine war appears to offer them.... egh, so much for my interest until i get more hard data.

the modifier thing i hardly ever saw aside from eldar, so i don't know how abusable that was.

**H.B.M.C.**

How is 10 models a "horde?

The whole capped modifier thing sounds like someone throwing their hands up and going "This is too hard! Max +1/-1... I don't want to think about it anymore!". Congrats GW. You just created a bunch of utterly redundant rules.

lord_blackfang wrote:
Pretty sure they said detachments cost CP in the live stream.

So building a list requires CP, but your CP total requires knowing the mission and table size. How can one just build a list for an event or even for casual play if you don't know what mission you're playing and need CP to make the damned list?

**nfe**

I think pretty much everything sounds good on the limited info we have. My one concern is flat CP generation.

The problem of soup has been two fold: 1) You can mix and match strong units from different factions to remove their built in weaknesses; and 2) elite armies can power their strong units with CP generated by cheap troops from another codex, thereby undermining the principal around which stratagems are (theoretically) balanced - elite armies are very limited in what's they can use and hordes have loads of CP and can have at it.

Giving flat CP and pricing extra codices and detachments, discourages souping. This tackles 1, but it exacerbates 2. If everyone starts with the same, then you're just giving all those CP to the elite armies without their even having to pay a troop tax.

**CthuluIsSpy**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
How is 10 models a "horde?

The whole capped modifier thing sounds like someone throwing their hands up and going "This is too hard! Max +1/-1... I don't want to think about it anymore!". Congrats GW. You just created a bunch of utterly redundant rules.

lord_blackfang wrote:
Pretty sure they said detachments cost CP in the live stream.
So building a list requires CP, but your CP total requires knowing the mission and table size. How can one just build a list for an event or even for casual play if you don't know what mission you're playing and need CP to make the damned list?

I thought Game size determined CP, not table size? Table size determining CP sounds weird, I doubt its that.
Mission CP is probably a bonus or something.
So you have the CP from your list. You spend some of that on allies. You get more CP from the mission to compensate.
That's what I'm guessing, anyway. I still don't have enough information.

**ClockworkZion**

Pickled_egg wrote:
Yarium wrote:
Okay, I'm very concerned. I love edition changes though, so I'm excited to play, but I'm concerned we're about to lose what made 8th awesome.

Infantry.

My favourite part of 40k, and my favourite part of 8th edition, was that Infantry were front and centre! 8th did this by making your Troops CRITICAL to the game for every single army. If you wanted lots of Command Points to do cool and strong stuff, you needed Troops. It sucked that some armies couldn't do this mono-faction (looking at you Custodes), but there were other ways to fix this up. The truth is, outside a few exceptions, Troops were your least effective units. They were the slowest, had the least firepower, and the least close combat capability. They only brought 2 things to bear:

#1 - They gave you board control at low cost. Some armies were based entirely around this (Termagant spam, Poxwalker spam, etc.)

#2 - They gave you CP by having a minimum 3 units required for a Battalion. If you wanted Triple Battalion, you needed NINE troop unit. That's a lot of infantry! This was honestly one of the main reasons you took Troops, and you tried your best to most optimally use these troops. It wasn't because they were good, but you stretched your dollar for all it was worth.

Well, 9th edition is now signalling that Infantry are going to be hitting the shelves again. Why?

- You get the same amount of CP no matter. So look forward to triple Spearhead Detachments. HQ's and Heavy Support and just your most effective units that devastate infantry.

- Blast weapons are now going to hit "hordes" better than ever. Guessing it's going to be "max shots" against a unit with 10 or more models, which means these blast weapons are just going to annihilate your forces if you're a horde player.

- Vehicles and Monsters are going to be able to shoot while in CC. Best case scenario, you're restricted to shooting the unit that's in combat with you. Worst case, they can shoot at anything. Either way, the hordes are going to suffer.

- Morale is going to matter LESS, not MORE. Why? You won't be taking hordes; you'll take single model units because you don't have to take multiple-model units. Those units are going to be extra weak now to the rules of the game, and the Morale mechanic is going to matter more; but really just to them. So you won't take them. If no one takes units that can suffer from morale, then morale won't matter. Welcome back to the age of fearlessness.

So, not going to lie. I'm scared. I'm scared that the main lists of 9th are going to look like this:

6 characters w/abilities that improve firepower in an aura
9 heavy support options that form a castle around that.
1 unit that forms the outer-most circle to absorb a charge

Me? I don't like the sound of that.

totally agree, and surprised more people haven't picked up on this.

We had an edition where you could bring anything you liked to the table and it sucked, Which was the whole reason they imposed the troop tax in 8th in the first place!
You need a mechanic to force competitive players to take troops or they just won't bother. Obsec is not a big enough reason.

I'm also concerned that negative modifiers won't stack beyond -1. Most of the Aeldari faction were relying on those modifiers to survive, and Aeldari have slipped down the pecking order as it stands already in competitive play.

No one picked up on it because there are too many assumptions based on incomplete information.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Goonhammer did a transcript: https://docs.google.com/document/u/0/d/1pLkIFWf81YIhGD6Cy_zfvX4zm5GbkYTTEHEPapCTONY/mobilebasic#

**Yarium**

ClockworkZion wrote:
Sounds like a lot of assumptions without seeing how the game actually works.

You're 100% correct. So I really am holding my breath to see what the actual rules are. Until they're released, everything I've just said is totally possible to be changed. I just love me my infantry, and I've lived through a lot of editions where you could bring whatever you wanted, and I don't want to go back to that.

**ClockworkZion**

Yarium wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
Sounds like a lot of assumptions without seeing how the game actually works.

You're 100% correct. So I really am holding my breath to see what the actual rules are. Until they're released, everything I've just said is totally possible to be changed. I just love me my infantry, and I've lived through a lot of editions where you could bring whatever you wanted, and I don't want to go back to that.

My guess is troops will have advantages for scoring in missions which will make them more important than people assume.

And it's not like you can't take them if you want them in your army.

**CthuluIsSpy**

Q19: What have you done to address the dominance of Eldar flyers in the game?

Stu - Modifiers are now capped. NEVER better than +1 or -1. Have really thought a lot about how Flyers will work in the game; no more crashing if they leave the board. Different interactions than infantry. Removing "gamey" things like using base to block movement, etc. Planes are a lot more fun to use if you're either the owner or the target.

I'm assuming that by modifiers he means hit modifiers, as that's in response to a question about Eldar flyers, which can stack hit modifiers.
So max +1 / -1 modifiers to hit.

Q20: Have there been any changes to how the Morale phase will work?

Stu - The Morale phase has been updated and improved. Introduced combat attrition. More things that interact with morale than in the past. No longer binary. Cool things like Night Lords and Reivers can do more scary things.

Interesting. Will want to see how that plays out. I wonder what he means by Combat Attrition.

**H.B.M.C.**

So umm... what does a Nurgle Psyker with Miasma of Pestilence do in an Alpha Legion army now?

**CthuluIsSpy**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
So umm... what does a Nurgle Psyker with Miasma of Pestilence do in an Alpha Legion army now?

Alpha Legion's effect only works a certain distance away from the enemy, right? Does Miasma of Pestilence have that same limitation?
If not, then you use it when you get too close to the enemy to use the Alpha Legion trait.
Also, doesn't that spell only work on Death Guard anyway?

**Ghaz**

Well this is on the Warhammer TV Facebook page...

Spoiler:

Like the picture says, get it before it's gone.

**Argive**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Q19: What have you done to address the dominance of Eldar flyers in the game?

Stu - Modifiers are now capped. NEVER better than +1 or -1. Have really thought a lot about how Flyers will work in the game; no more crashing if they leave the board. Different interactions than infantry. Removing "gamey" things like using base to block movement, etc. Planes are a lot more fun to use if you're either the owner or the target.

I'm assuming that by modifiers he means hit modifiers, as that's in response to a question about Eldar flyers, which can stack hit modifiers.
So max +1 / -1 modifiers to hit.

Q20: Have there been any changes to how the Morale phase will work?

Stu - The Morale phase has been updated and improved. Introduced combat attrition. More things that interact with morale than in the past. No longer binary. Cool things like Night Lords and Reivers can do more scary things.

Interesting. Will want to see how that plays out. I wonder what he means by Combat Attrition.

The toruble is now if I move with a heavy weapon i only get the -1 to hit.. So basicaly i wll be moving with my heavy weapons all day long and I ahppen to come up against somethign with a modifiers i just dont care and still only get my -1 from moving..

I really hope it isint a flat +1/-1 cap like it sounds or they changed the way heavy weapons work in that if you move you cannot shoot them at all or something.. Because otherwise everything will have a heavy weapon because why wouldn't you if you only ever have to worry about a single -1 to the BS.

Im not sure how much i like the a 6 always hits/wounds but a 1 can be re-rolled mechanic.. Especially where some armies have heaps of re-roll everything auras which doesn't really care about anything up to -2!
I guess Eldar will go back to having re-rollable saves if modifiers no longer give anywhere near the benefit. (Ohh the sea of salt.. just imagine)

Im certainly reserving my judgement but im not filled with optimism. I'm very curious about the new rules.

**diepotato47**

Personally speaking, I'm really in favour of what this new Command Point structure looks to be. I'm guessing it means games will have fewer command points, which means you'll really have to think carefully about the best moment to use them, and the most optimal for your list.
On the new starter box, one thing I appreciate is that it seems to act as an extension of Dark Imperium,for Space Marines instead of strictly a replacement, while still standing on its own. Really excited to see what combinations can come from the two kits, like a Gravis Captain in combat being protected by Bladeguard Veterans, or trapping a unit between Outriders and Inceptors.
I'm curious to see if the Easy to Build stuff and First Strike/Know No Fear will be updated, or phased out and replaced with things more fitting with this box. Maybe an Easy to Build Primaris Landspeeder?

**addnid**

Remember 5th ed where ONLY troops could score. If you didn’t bring enough you auto loses as soon as your opponent killed them. The missions were rubbish though, so we only took minimal numbers and hid them as well as we could. Plus the game was much less lethal, you could ensure survival of a unit quite easily.

I am betting troops will have new purposes, I am pretty confident.
Also I say this as a horde player with very large Tyranids gen cult and ork armies. I really don’t think GW wants Heavy Support domination

**H.B.M.C.**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Alpha Legion's effect only works a certain distance away from the enemy, right? Does Miasma of Pestilence have that same limitation? If not, then you use it when you get too close to the enemy to use the Alpha Legion trait.

I doubt that was ever the intended use. I stand by my "this is too hard and we don't want to deal with it!" theory for modifiers in 9th.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Also, doesn't that spell only work on Death Guard anyway?

A power from Chaos Marines Codex only works on units from a different book?

**Kanluwen**

Gee, it's almost like the Raven Guard trait of "count as in cover at 12" or further" suddenly makes more sense knowing that modifiers are capped.

**Sledgehammer**

Infantry squads only being useful for sitting around and doing nothing is neither engaging, nor fun. Having them only be useful for taking objectives is not the way to make them be taken. They should have a defensive and offensive place on the battlefield, whether that be holding a trench line, or executing a surprise advance on the flank.

No one is going to take units that merely exist to sit there in a predefined location, and get shot so the bigger models get to look cool.

**Eldarsif**

Giving flat CP and pricing extra codices and detachments, discourages souping. This tackles 1, but it exacerbates 2. If everyone starts with the same, then you're just giving all those CP to the elite armies without their even having to pay a troop tax.

The idea of troop tax needs die. Troops tend to vary so greatly between factions that having to bring Troop troops means everybody just brings the same low point units and bars fluffy elite armies. I mean, how fun is it that every single Asuryani list has 3x5 rangers or that Space Marines have 3x5 scout marines or the 3x10 Chaos Cultists? Do people consider this type of troop tax fun to play with and against? Are CP batteries as a game mechanic desirable so the core of every single army is the same for each and everyone?

The removal of a troop tax is the best thing I've heard in a long time as it means I can actually play a Ravenwing/Deathwing list and even use the Ravenwing/Deathwing stratagems at the same time. It means I can run a honest god Asuryani wraith army without adding 3x5 rangers just so I can use wraith stratagems. The guy in stream even mentioned that this was a design issue in 8th as they discovered that certain armies and variations had effectively been locked out of the game due to how CP was generated.

**Yarium**

Q30: Will players still need to include Troops?

Pete - You will need to "in the same way you do now", just lots more flexibility.

Sigh of relief.

**H.B.M.C.**

Kanluwen wrote:
Gee, it's almost like the Raven Guard trait of "count as in cover at 12" or further" suddenly makes more sense knowing that modifiers are capped.

And of course you think that that rule was written with 9th in mind?

**Eldarain**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
Gee, it's almost like the Raven Guard trait of "count as in cover at 12" or further" suddenly makes more sense knowing that modifiers are capped.
And of course you think that that rule was written with 9th in mind?

Clearly. Our GW overlords are so far ahead of the curve that they took it into account for the favoured sons almost a year ago but then didn't bother accounting for 9th in the PA books since.

**Slayer-Fan123**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Q19: What have you done to address the dominance of Eldar flyers in the game?

Stu - Modifiers are now capped. NEVER better than +1 or -1. Have really thought a lot about how Flyers will work in the game; no more crashing if they leave the board. Different interactions than infantry. Removing "gamey" things like using base to block movement, etc. Planes are a lot more fun to use if you're either the owner or the target.

I'm assuming that by modifiers he means hit modifiers, as that's in response to a question about Eldar flyers, which can stack hit modifiers.
So max +1 / -1 modifiers to hit.

Q20: Have there been any changes to how the Morale phase will work?

Stu - The Morale phase has been updated and improved. Introduced combat attrition. More things that interact with morale than in the past. No longer binary. Cool things like Night Lords and Reivers can do more scary things.

Interesting. Will want to see how that plays out. I wonder what he means by Combat Attrition.

There's really no attrition so long as Fall Back exists as a mechanic.