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Well, they could do some nuance and instead of Feels Bad Traitors, they could go for some nuance, and different visions of what the Imperium is supposed to be.

Or some sort of psychic upheaval, since that was supposed to be vaguely relevant to something recently.

You'd think there would be an Imperial Truth/Ecclesiarchy schism but I have admittedly not read as much of the modern era stuff.

 Eldarain wrote:
You'd think there would be an Imperial Truth/Ecclesiarchy schism but I have admittedly not read as much of the modern era stuff.

Only if you think Gulliman is going to attempt to reverse thousands of years of social development in the middle of fighting for the Imperium's survival, some of the more idiotic primarchsmay have tried it, Gulliman is well aware he can't afford to

Will upset people either way.

If everyone crosses the Rubicon. Then all old marine armies are then only usable in a historical setting, that or everyone’s army fluff will be they were in the warp so are still old marines

Danny76 wrote:
Will upset people either way.

If everyone crosses the Rubicon. Then all old marine armies are then only usable in a historical setting, that or everyone’s army fluff will be they were in the warp so are still old marines

which is why GW won't bother for ages. old marines aren't going to go out with a bang, they'll continue producing them until the molds wear out and gradually shift more and more of them to legends over decades

Danny76 wrote:
Will upset people either way.

If everyone crosses the Rubicon. Then all old marine armies are then only usable in a historical setting, that or everyone’s army fluff will be they were in the warp so are still old marines

Oh yay, more "original character don't steal but my Marines were lost in the warp and HATE Primaris!!!!1!" To look forward to.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
You'd think there would be an Imperial Truth/Ecclesiarchy schism but I have admittedly not read as much of the modern era stuff.

Only if you think Gulliman is going to attempt to reverse thousands of years of social development in the middle of fighting for the Imperium's survival, some of the more idiotic primarchsmay have tried it, Gulliman is well aware he can't afford to

I was more thinking it would be initiated by the High Lords/Ecclesiarchy in the classic humanity can't get out of it's own way when power and control are at stake mold. Mostly just want more division in the background to better suit all the Imperium on Imperium violence we all wage.

For old marines, Let's face it even now if you remove Jump Pack Characters and scouts how many do you actually see.

 Eldarain wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
You'd think there would be an Imperial Truth/Ecclesiarchy schism but I have admittedly not read as much of the modern era stuff.

Only if you think Gulliman is going to attempt to reverse thousands of years of social development in the middle of fighting for the Imperium's survival, some of the more idiotic primarchsmay have tried it, Gulliman is well aware he can't afford to

I was more thinking it would be initiated by the High Lords/Ecclesiarchy in the classic humanity can't get out of it's own way when power and control are at stake mold. Mostly just want more division in the background to better suit all the Imperium on Imperium violence we all wage.

Watchers of the Throne series might tempt you.

Highlords can do whatever they like frankly Guilliman is above them and can hire and fire Highlords as he likes.

He has Custodes, probably in excess of 50%of the marines, Harry Cawl not to mention too "most people's mind" the blessing of the emperor himself.

He is no fan of the modern Eclesiarcy but he knows it's a thing and in many ways he seems to have helped it along with some of his choices during the heresy, when dealing with loyal/penetent word bearers traitor legionairs.

Aspects of Thom wrote:
For old marines, Let's face it even now if you remove Jump Pack Characters and scouts how many do you actually see.

Drop Pod Devs, Cents and Deathwatch still get use from Vets but yeah Primaris are invalidating most of it.

People have broken down how overtuned Intercessors are and with the new edition seeming to be heading the "GW fixing an issue that's a meta or two behind" in this case elite/horde while Marines are ruling the game we'll have to see how it shakes out moving forward.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

I have heard good things about the series. I'll make it my next Audible credit. I should definitely read up on the situation as it strikes me odd they would grant him so much control both from a selfish standpoint and moreso the lessons of the HH of having too much power in the hands of the demigod manbabies.

Guilliman has the power because he literally has the top seat on the High Lords after Dorn put him in charge during the Scouring.

Plus with meeting with the Emperor and having the backing of the Custodes and votes of support from Celestine and Greyfax (an Imperial Saint and a hardline Inquisitorl) only cemented his influence further.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well that "leaked" datasheet has been out for nearly a full day now and GW hasn't said a word. Safe to bet it's fake since they respond to leaks pretty quick these days.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Danny76 wrote:
Will upset people either way.

If everyone crosses the Rubicon. Then all old marine armies are then only usable in a historical setting, that or everyone’s army fluff will be they were in the warp so are still old marines

Oh yay, more "original character don't steal but my Marines were lost in the warp and HATE Primaris!!!!1!" To look forward to.

No one needs to do that and shouldn't as how hard would it be just to produce rules for the first born even if primaris are the new poster boys ? Wouldn't take much and low effort books to add to burn and churn would be great fun for GW ! I mean they wouldn't even need a new model release or they could as a lark make a one of model now and then for first born to go with it.

Shinny new toy syndrome would mean most will be primaris before long anyways, and worrying about first born somehow upsetting balance for the game is daft when the balance is already questionable and will be so I think for as long as the game exists.

As is the game is a setting and not an exact moment in time anyways, even if they move the timeline forward.

I don't think GW will stop producing rules for Firstborn. Legends is always an option after all....

Lets not start this debate again, Legends is as good as dead as most people will just straight up refuse to play against them. We've already been down this road, while I disagree with it most look at that as a Kiss of Death so saying they'll be in Legends is like saying you never lose something as its always in the grave.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I don't think GW will stop producing rules for Firstborn. Legends is always an option after all....

that and consider how old some of the kits out there are. Khorne Bezerkers are over 20 years old, and I bet some plastic kits are even older so First born are fine, I mean... what are we afraid of, not getting a new Tac marine kit every 5 years or so?

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Lets not start this debate again, Legends is as good as dead as most people will just straight up refuse to play against them. We've already been down this road, while I disagree with it most look at that as a Kiss of Death so saying they'll be in Legends is like saying you never lose something as its always in the grave.

That people refuse to play using official rules provided is just pure idiocy and not GWs fault in any form. I actually hope the they Legend the minimarines, as that might put an end to that anti-Legends lunacy as half of many people's collections now depend on those rules.

 Crimson wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Lets not start this debate again, Legends is as good as dead as most people will just straight up refuse to play against them. We've already been down this road, while I disagree with it most look at that as a Kiss of Death so saying they'll be in Legends is like saying you never lose something as its always in the grave.

That people refuse to play using official rules provided is just pure idiocy and not GWs fault in any form. I actually hope the they Legend the minimarines, as that might put an end to that anti-Legends lunacy as half of many people's collections now depend on those rules.

Let's be honest, people will still pitch fits about Forge World even with the main studio doing the rules.

 Crimson wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Lets not start this debate again, Legends is as good as dead as most people will just straight up refuse to play against them. We've already been down this road, while I disagree with it most look at that as a Kiss of Death so saying they'll be in Legends is like saying you never lose something as its always in the grave.

That people refuse to play using official rules provided is just pure idiocy and not GWs fault in any form. I actually hope the they Legend the minimarines, as that might put an end to that anti-Legends lunacy as half of many people's collections now depend on those rules.

I really hope that doesn't happen as all that will happen is the madness people have over legends will lead to lots of people losing lots of models. It may not be GWs fault for their reaction, but GW could very easily just keep books coming out to keep first born around. It would require little effort, if they do it right will get them money it's a win win. As opposed to the legends which is just a loss wrapped in a bow. Much like working at a store and being fired but it being phrased as " You're not being fired, you're being promoted to customer. ".

AngryAngel80 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Lets not start this debate again, Legends is as good as dead as most people will just straight up refuse to play against them. We've already been down this road, while I disagree with it most look at that as a Kiss of Death so saying they'll be in Legends is like saying you never lose something as its always in the grave.

That people refuse to play using official rules provided is just pure idiocy and not GWs fault in any form. I actually hope the they Legend the minimarines, as that might put an end to that anti-Legends lunacy as half of many people's collections now depend on those rules.

I really hope that doesn't happen as all that will happen is the madness people have over legends will lead to lots of people losing lots of models. It may not be GWs fault for their reaction, but GW could very easily just keep books coming out to keep first born around. It would require little effort, if they do it right will get them money it's a win win. As opposed to the legends which is just a loss wrapped in a bow. Much like working at a store and being fired but it being phrased as " You're not being fired, you're being promoted to customer. ".

Legends is still perfectly playable, just not re-balanced outside of maybe edition changes. People telling you to not play Legends are the same ones who will continue to ban Forge World and throw fits about certain units. No one, not even GW should cater to those people.

Ripping off the bandage will have to happen sooner or later just to combat the codex bloat. Keeping around units they'll phase out over time even after they're phased out.does nothing to keep the player base happy and only continues an existing problem for even longer than it should go on.

All marines should get two wounds, keep the rest as usual and move on with it. Eventually there will be marines, just marines... no numarines and no OG weenies. Just different generations of models, as should have been the case since the start.

 jeff white wrote:
All marines should get two wounds...

What about Terminators then? Chaos Marines? Havocs who are Primaris size, have T5, but only 1 wound? What about... ? What about... ? And on and on it goes.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 jeff white wrote:
All marines should get two wounds...

What about Terminators then? Chaos Marines? Havocs who are Primaris size, have T5, but only 1 wound? What about... ? What about... ? And on and on it goes.

All marines... including chaos. As a way to recognize super human multi organ physiology.
Why should termies get more? They should get to use 2d6 for armor saves.

Centurions should be forgotten as well should those ridiculous new jump pack restartes with auto cannons... these should never see play but this is my taste. Still, if one were to want to use them, two wounds...

Anyways with this narrative ongoing, I see just a sort of long winded excuse to end up with exactly this. I mean it never made sense that a guardsman and a Deathwatch marine both had one wound with the only real difference between them being power armor...

 jeff white wrote:
They should get to use 2d6 for armor saves.

Oh yeah. That'll speed up the game...

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 jeff white wrote:
They should get to use 2d6 for armor saves.

Oh yeah. That'll speed up the game...

Have fun when I point 10 Gauss Immortals with MWBD in your direction, and I'll go make a cup of tea.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 jeff white wrote:
They should get to use 2d6 for armor saves.

Oh yeah. That'll speed up the game...

Have fun when I point 10 Gauss Immortals with MWBD in your direction, and I'll go make a cup of tea.

Or a maxed out Ork Shooting Phase. I'll go read War and Peace.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 jeff white wrote:
All marines should get two wounds...

What about Terminators then? Chaos Marines? Havocs who are Primaris size, have T5, but only 1 wound? What about... ? What about... ? And on and on it goes.

In 8th Number of Wounds was the main defence statline, Armour Save did not really matter, and Thoughness needs to be above the S level of the most used weapons to matter
So yes if Marines can take more damage than a human, it is not the armour save that matter or T5 for Termis but 2 or more Wounds.

Instead of adding T6 2+/5+++ Termis (and equivalent), give them 3 Wounds while MEQ should have 2 Wounds.

Increasing the "killspeed" of the game because rules are written for a 10 model skirmish game and therefore it is too slow if played with armies is no solution and jut creates other problems (which than are solved by adding more save, that are compensated by mortal wounds which is "solved" by different saves etc. we have seen this before and instead of doing proper statlines designed to fit the core rules, GW just copy&paste stuff from an old game and add workarounds by special rules)

We only need more wounds because weapons cause more damage these days. The fact that a Krak Missile can just wipe away half a big bug's wounds with one failed armour save is what makes these things seem so weak.

It's a form of rules escalation that's really unhealthy if not properly cultivated and expanded upon. I don't trust GW's writers to be able to do that.

Then you can give Custodes an extra wound and attack each and they can feel like the mini characters they’re meant to be.

It's not going to happen anytime soon, but it'd probably be better if Armour and AP were just taken acount in a model's T & Weapon's S just to remove a whole sequence of rolls and rescale defensiveness from there.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
It's not going to happen anytime soon, but it'd probably be better if Armour and AP were just taken acount in a model's T & Weapon's S just to remove a whole sequence of rolls and rescale defensiveness from there.

You would remove armour saves from the game completely? That would drastically reduce the interactivity of the game. During your opponent's turn your only task would be to remove the things that die. That's not fun. UGOIGO has its problems, but further reducing the "off" player's ability to influence the game when it is not their turn would be a terrible change.