40k 9th edition, : App released page 413

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**tneva82**

Virules wrote:
Unless somehow the community decides to jump to 2500 or 3000 point games as a result, I admit I am pretty bummed about this change. I really enjoyed the points costs getting lowered and having more diversity in the amount and variety of models in my army and my opponent's army. I appreciate that they want to make the game faster but I was really hoping they could do that through rules changes rather than just be forcing people to bring less models.

I am also skeptical that they will get the granularity right, if the Cultist versus Intercessor comparison is anything to go by....those changes seem really off, at least for 8th, to the detriment of the Chaos player.

Another effect constantly increasing model count is that unless you keep upping board(and who has 8'x6' board?) it keeps reducing importance of deployment and manouvering. Aka reduces strategy from game.

**Eldarain**

tneva82 wrote:
Galas wrote:
GW point increase is allready flawed. If you want to make a general point increase to make games "smaller" and have more room on the low cost units the increase should be the same in % for every unit.

Then after that you can start costing things individually and adjusting based in performance, of course, but thats a totally different beast.

And you know they didn't basically do that...how? After all if we see every unit go up equally then we know they weren't even trying to balance the points.

It doesn't look good when in the one example we have the supreme overtuned troop unit in the game takes a 25% increase and the multi nerfed legion trait exempt unit which by it's very nature is catching further core mechanic nerfs eats a 50% increase.

**tneva82**

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:
Given that they are changing every unit showing the full cost of the two unit including all options would have been far more useful as a guide as to what to expect.

That assumes that isn't what they have already shown us as currently 2 of the three weapons options are free for intercessors.

And even if intercessors have to start paying for their weapons how do we know that cultists won't? Why should we assume that autoguns are still free if bolt rifles suddenly have a price?

Well if bolt gun costs 4 pts and autogun 1 the point gap is quite different still.

You don't expect vastly superior boltgun to be same price as autogun do you? Only way that would be is if cost is included in model cost.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eldarain wrote:
Almost everything shown is good for Marines so far. Horde damage buff. Reduction in starting CP when they are one of the least reliant on it. Soup penalties while they have extra buffs for "choosing" to mono faction. Lesser points increase than their mirror.

Will take seeing what non Marine 9th books look like but the reigning champ is looking almost unscathed so far.

Not to mention missions that are similar to marine favouring ITC...

Well when you have playtesters group who run nova missions that look to be basically ITC missions which are fairly anti horde no surprise.

**Matt.Kingsley**

Can't believe it. GW promised that 40k worked great at every point level, and yet you're telling me I get the same number of CP at 5000pts as I do at 3000? The liars.

Sorry, my tired brain thought we could use a slight bit of levity from the legitimate worries people are having.

**Asmodai**

tneva82 wrote:
Virules wrote:
Unless somehow the community decides to jump to 2500 or 3000 point games as a result, I admit I am pretty bummed about this change. I really enjoyed the points costs getting lowered and having more diversity in the amount and variety of models in my army and my opponent's army. I appreciate that they want to make the game faster but I was really hoping they could do that through rules changes rather than just be forcing people to bring less models.

I am also skeptical that they will get the granularity right, if the Cultist versus Intercessor comparison is anything to go by....those changes seem really off, at least for 8th, to the detriment of the Chaos player.

Another effect constantly increasing model count is that unless you keep upping board(and who has 8'x6' board?) it keeps reducing importance of deployment and manouvering. Aka reduces strategy from game.

A typical table tennis / ping pong table is 9'x5' and works great for 40K.

**Bdrone**

Ahh. so less command points than expected at 2k, but hey, 3k is the 4th supported playing size now, with a point increase to match.

well, thats amusing, and makes preparing for 9th even harder to predict than before. i wonder what this did for my prospective knight and IG lists. can't even exactly call it a nerf, because the points changes could be all over the place, except for people who played for max command points. pretty sure they get less no matter what now unless that command phase thing is involved with some kind of generation as theorized.

**ClockworkZion**

tneva82 wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
10:1 people would still just play larger sized games no matter what GW said the points ceiling is, so they tried to account for that and said 3k is the new 2k pre-emptively.

They said no such thing(unless I missed something). They said they want model count go down. The chart also indicates 3k is not the default for GW(default isn't biggest one for GW)

They didn't say it, but with the points changes, that's how the community will take it since it's hard to get people to leave toys on the shelf.

**Mr Morden**

Ice_can wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:
Given that they are changing every unit showing the full cost of the two unit including all options would have been far more useful as a guide as to what to expect.

That assumes that isn't what they have already shown us as currently 2 of the three weapons options are free for intercessors.

And if they had shown the full dataslate for both units with points as a actual example of how two specific sample units of the hundreds in the game work in the new system the preview would actualy be useful and meaningful.

Partial information asks more questions than it answers.

**Audustum**

As Custodes, I fear what across the board points increases will do to my army.

**Ice_can**

Mr Morden wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:
Given that they are changing every unit showing the full cost of the two unit including all options would have been far more useful as a guide as to what to expect.

That assumes that isn't what they have already shown us as currently 2 of the three weapons options are free for intercessors.

And if they had shown the full dataslate for both units with points as a actual example of how two specific sample units of the hundreds in the game work in the new system the preview would actualy be useful and meaningful.

Partial information asks more questions than it answers.

So far the information provided is the best factions best or second best troops choice just took a 17% increase in points while cultists the weaker version of guardsmen just took a 50% increase.

Either way partial information does NOT make those points increases look like they are helping improve balance in the game.

**Mr Morden**

Ice_can wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:
Given that they are changing every unit showing the full cost of the two unit including all options would have been far more useful as a guide as to what to expect.

That assumes that isn't what they have already shown us as currently 2 of the three weapons options are free for intercessors.

And if they had shown the full dataslate for both units with points as a actual example of how two specific sample units of the hundreds in the game work in the new system the preview would actualy be useful and meaningful.

Partial information asks more questions than it answers.

So far the information provided is the best factions best or second best troops choice just took a 17% increase in points while cultists the weaker version of guardsmen just took a 50% increase.

Either way partial information does NOT make those points increases look like they are helping improve balance in the game.

No it doesn't but the full dataslate and pts cost would at least give us answers to relevant questions like wargear costs....

**the_scotsman**

Audustum wrote:
As Custodes, I fear what across the board points increases will do to my army.

...Make it even cheaper to buy and collect a full army?

Seriously, how is this a downside to literally anybody? Does anyone ENJOY spending 2 hours painting a 4-point horde troop model?

Oh, right, people love it when you do that. What they want is to field 10 space marines and make pew pew noises shooting your horde models off the table.

**lord_blackfang**

tneva82 wrote:
Virules wrote:
Unless somehow the community decides to jump to 2500 or 3000 point games as a result, I admit I am pretty bummed about this change. I really enjoyed the points costs getting lowered and having more diversity in the amount and variety of models in my army and my opponent's army. I appreciate that they want to make the game faster but I was really hoping they could do that through rules changes rather than just be forcing people to bring less models.

I am also skeptical that they will get the granularity right, if the Cultist versus Intercessor comparison is anything to go by....those changes seem really off, at least for 8th, to the detriment of the Chaos player.

Another effect constantly increasing model count is that unless you keep upping board(and who has 8'x6' board?) it keeps reducing importance of deployment and manouvering. Aka reduces strategy from game.

That is my main issue with it as well.

**Galas**

the_scotsman wrote:
Audustum wrote:
As Custodes, I fear what across the board points increases will do to my army.

...Make it even cheaper to buy and collect a full army?

Seriously, how is this a downside to literally anybody? Does anyone ENJOY spending 2 hours painting a 4-point horde troop model?

Oh, right, people love it when you do that. What they want is to field 10 space marines and make pew pew noises shooting your horde models off the table.

If people has toys A, B, C and D they want to use them in all of their games instead of using A, B and D in one, B, C and D in other. I mean I don't understand it but I'm in the minority.

**Rydria**

So Intercessors go up in cost by 11% but chaos cultists go up in cost by 20% ?

**Sunny Side Up**

Rydria wrote:
So Intercessors go up in cost by 11% but chaos cultists go up in cost by 20% ?

Not sure your math is correct there.

Going from 4 points to 6 points is 20%

From 17 to 20 is 11%

?

**stratigo**

ClockworkZion wrote:
Aaranis wrote:
Yeah on the topic of smaller games, I feel like people are quickly going to just amp up the "normal" game size from 2000 to 3000 or something and it won't help at all. People generally just want to play a lot of their collection and not feel limited.

Which is sad because I'm just hoping this'll make AdMech armies cheaper in relation to the abysmal €/pts cost of today where a Skorpius is 65€ for 70-80ish pts

With points hikes I could see 2k armies totalling up closer to 3k leading to 3k being the new large game standard for bringing all your toys.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Platuan4th wrote:
Warp Charge is already in the game, it's the target roll you need to pass.

Ah, okay. I was having 7th edition flashbacks.

As a custodes player, this makes me a little sad. I'm already pretty pointed out of 500 point games, is a bummer if I end up out of 1000 point games too cause I can't fit a coherent force in one.

**Rydria**

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Rydria wrote:
So Intercessors go up in cost by 11% but chaos cultists go up in cost by 20% ?

Not sure your math is correct there.

Going from 4 points to 6 points is 20%

From 17 to 20 is 11%

?

Oh I thought cultist where 5 points at the moment and Intercessors where 18 that is my bad (I'm a bit behind), that is even worse then

Cultists = 50% increase
Intercessors = 18% increase

**Gadzilla666**

Imateria wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Eldarain wrote:
Almost everything shown is good for Marines so far. Horde damage buff. Reduction in starting CP when they are one of the least reliant on it. Soup penalties while they have extra buffs for "choosing" to mono faction. Lesser points increase than their mirror.

Will take seeing what non Marine 9th books look like but the reigning champ is looking almost unscathed so far.

Yup. "hey folks we definitely want to make sure there isn't just one best faction when things start out"

*Releases MASSIVE, CRAZY MARINE BUFFS a couple months before new edition, shattering years of a relatively balanced competitive meta*

Don't forget all the new models. I'm sure their rules won't be remotely OP.

You mean like the new CSM were, or Howling Banshees?

Those weren't new units, they were updated kits for old units. And they didn't have the word PRIMARIS associated with them.

tneva82 wrote:Well if bolt gun costs 4 pts and autogun 1 the point gap is quite different still.

You don't expect vastly superior boltgun to be same price as autogun do you? Only way that would be is if cost is included in model cost.

You mean like they are now? And most likely will be in 9th? I don't think previously free weapons are going to start costing points.

**Asmodai**

The 3000 point bracket one has 3 missions rather than the 6 at 2000 and I suspect that those three are a lot less rigorously playtested (being the Apocalypse equivalent).

I very much doubt the major tourney organizers will be leaving the 2K missions they spent so much time playtesting behind.

**iGuy91**

stratigo wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
Aaranis wrote:
Yeah on the topic of smaller games, I feel like people are quickly going to just amp up the "normal" game size from 2000 to 3000 or something and it won't help at all. People generally just want to play a lot of their collection and not feel limited.

Which is sad because I'm just hoping this'll make AdMech armies cheaper in relation to the abysmal €/pts cost of today where a Skorpius is 65€ for 70-80ish pts

With points hikes I could see 2k armies totalling up closer to 3k leading to 3k being the new large game standard for bringing all your toys.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Platuan4th wrote:
Warp Charge is already in the game, it's the target roll you need to pass.

Ah, okay. I was having 7th edition flashbacks.

As a custodes player, this makes me a little sad. I'm already pretty pointed out of 500 point games, is a bummer if I end up out of 1000 point games too cause I can't fit a coherent force in one.

It is quite possible since 40k has somewhere near 1000 data sheets, that the Custodes army may not increase that much point wise. If their points don't increase much (They really, really shouldn't). They will be facing lighter opposition in the opposing force, fewer guns pointing at them, etc.

**Hulksmash**

Couple things;

-As pointed out table size isn't actually being changed from this. It's being opened up to be whatever size you want as long as you can meet the deployment/objective minimums. Similar to AoS which is still on a 6x4.

-The 2k "change" in 8th was more of a UK/Europe issue. The US was 1850/2k already. But even then it was only a 150pt bump. Given that they aren't giving us increments for CP at different point levels actually points to a steady setting of 2k.

**BrianDavion**

Eldarain wrote:
Almost everything shown is good for Marines so far. Horde damage buff. Reduction in starting CP when they are one of the least reliant on it. Soup penalties while they have extra buffs for "choosing" to mono faction. Lesser points increase than their mirror.

Will take seeing what non Marine 9th books look like but the reigning champ is looking almost unscathed so far.

.. in what world are CULTISTS the mirror of intercessors. they're completely differant units with completely differant goals, yes they're both troops but that doesn't make them mirrors at all.

**Eldarain**

BrianDavion wrote:
Eldarain wrote:
Almost everything shown is good for Marines so far. Horde damage buff. Reduction in starting CP when they are one of the least reliant on it. Soup penalties while they have extra buffs for "choosing" to mono faction. Lesser points increase than their mirror.

Will take seeing what non Marine 9th books look like but the reigning champ is looking almost unscathed so far.

.. in what world are CULTISTS the mirror of intercessors. they're completely differant units with completely differant goals, yes they're both troops but that doesn't make them mirrors at all.

Mirror as in the armies Space Marines/Chaos Space Marines

Beautifully nitpicked though. I'll edit it to avoid my point being sidestepped so easily.

**Semper**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
lord_blackfang wrote:
The lack of a 1500 pt tier is undoubtedly a conscious effort to dissuade sub-2k games.

Yeah that is weird how its not linear.
It should be going up in increments of 500, but it starts jumping by 1000 past the 500 point tier.
I guess 1500 points gives you 6CP then, instead of 9? I hope this doesn't mean that you technically aren't allowed to play games from 1001-1999 points, which would just be weird design.

It clearly goes up by 3CP per 500pts in the chart shown...

**Voss**

Ice_can wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:
Given that they are changing every unit showing the full cost of the two unit including all options would have been far more useful as a guide as to what to expect.

That assumes that isn't what they have already shown us as currently 2 of the three weapons options are free for intercessors.

And if they had shown the full dataslate for both units with points as a actual example of how two specific sample units of the hundreds in the game work in the new system the preview would actualy be useful and meaningful.

Partial information asks more questions than it answers.

So far the information provided is the best factions best or second best troops choice just took a 17% increase in points while cultists the weaker version of guardsmen just took a 50% increase.

Either way partial information does NOT make those points increases look like they are helping improve balance in the game.

Yes it does. Units at the bottom end of the points pool were too cheap for the number of attacks and wounds they provided, and a lot of elite units simply weren't worth the points they cost in terms of attacks and wounds. That's been a huge problem since the beginning of 8th. A universally equal points increase would have made no sense and changed nothing- it would have kept the same crappy exterior and interior balance problems of a lot of armies.

Sit down and work out the math and try it out on the table first. Don't get caught up in the percentages in a vacuum.

**Vaktathi**

We'll have to wait to see what all changes there are to the rules and points as a whole to know what's going to be overcosted and what's not. If the past is any indication, it's likely we'll have a wonky stilted metagame with a good chunk of clearly under/over costed units to start out with in some form or another, GW has never once managed to avoid that, but let's see where those problems actually are first.

**Voss**

Oh, yeah, I don't doubt cost problems. But raising the floor has been needed since Index 1. There just wasn't room to move.

**Not Online!!!**

Voss wrote:
Oh, yeah, I don't doubt cost problems. But raising the floor has been needed since Index 1. There just wasn't room to move.

Aye , allbeit if one Elie unit didn't need a "relative" buff then it was intercissors.
Heck fwiw we could've doubled all points and i'd really liked to have a better Look at the Design and Development process but he , one can dream right?

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

Aaranis wrote:
Then you wouldn't gain the increased granularity in point balance between units, the right thing to do is to increase the scale to allow for more subtle changes. There was a huge mess on the forum where people wanted Guardsmen to go from 4 to 5 pts, but then that would mean Veterans would have to go from 5 to 6, and then why bother using a Veteran when x unit is already 6 pts... And so forth. If they multiply all values by two we can have 8 pts Guardsmen that go up to 9 pts, while the Veteran stays at 10 or 11. Something like that.

Another solution is making you buy guardsmen by pack of two, three, or even 5. That's how Warmachine does it. It allows much much smaller point values while keeping some granularity.