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Us3Less wrote:
While I find the overall change to overwatch interesting, I'm not too thrilled that it costs CP. What we've seen so far is that the "More CP than ever" is exaggerated compared to for example what a Brigade or double Battalion would give you. When every 'basic' action is going to cost CP as well, we'll end up actually having less CP for the fun stratagems. Perhaps we just don't know enough yet, but the picture given so far is not only positive regarding the "more CP" slogan.

Maybe for gun line armies looking to stop charging units. But not for those of us doing the charging.

I like this a lot.

Voss wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Us3Less wrote:
While I find the overall change to overwatch interesting, I'm not too thrilled that it costs CP. What we've seen so far is that the "More CP than ever" is exaggerated compared to for example what a Brigade or double Battalion would give you. When every 'basic' action is going to cost CP as well, we'll end up actually having less CP for the fun stratagems. Perhaps we just don't know enough yet, but the picture given so far is not only positive regarding the "more CP" slogan.

Or we'll have to build our armies up around the fun strats we want to use instead of using rerolls, or maybe even Overwatch.

We get at least a CP a turn though, so Overwatch can always be paid for.

Sure. But is it worth paying for?
There are just so many better strats that can also use the CP.

It's situational, but that doesn't mean it's bad.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Us3Less wrote:
While I find the overall change to overwatch interesting, I'm not too thrilled that it costs CP. What we've seen so far is that the "More CP than ever" is exaggerated compared to for example what a Brigade or double Battalion would give you. When every 'basic' action is going to cost CP as well, we'll end up actually having less CP for the fun stratagems. Perhaps we just don't know enough yet, but the picture given so far is not only positive regarding the "more CP" slogan.

Maybe for gun line armies looking to stop charging units. But not for those of us doing the charging.

I like this a lot.

Yeah while obviously we need to wait until the rubber meets the road, on paper this is a very exciting change.

Honestly, if they make Fall Back a strat, along with OW and CTD it would be the perfect trifecta.

 Nah Man Pichu wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Us3Less wrote:
While I find the overall change to overwatch interesting, I'm not too thrilled that it costs CP. What we've seen so far is that the "More CP than ever" is exaggerated compared to for example what a Brigade or double Battalion would give you. When every 'basic' action is going to cost CP as well, we'll end up actually having less CP for the fun stratagems. Perhaps we just don't know enough yet, but the picture given so far is not only positive regarding the "more CP" slogan.

Maybe for gun line armies looking to stop charging units. But not for those of us doing the charging.

I like this a lot.

Yeah while obviously we need to wait until the rubber meets the road, on paper this is a very exciting change.

Honestly, if they make Fall Back a strat, along with OW and CTD it would be the perfect trifecta.

Wasn't Fall Back confirmed to be a strat? Or am I thinking of something else?

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Voss wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Us3Less wrote:
While I find the overall change to overwatch interesting, I'm not too thrilled that it costs CP. What we've seen so far is that the "More CP than ever" is exaggerated compared to for example what a Brigade or double Battalion would give you. When every 'basic' action is going to cost CP as well, we'll end up actually having less CP for the fun stratagems. Perhaps we just don't know enough yet, but the picture given so far is not only positive regarding the "more CP" slogan.

Or we'll have to build our armies up around the fun strats we want to use instead of using rerolls, or maybe even Overwatch.

We get at least a CP a turn though, so Overwatch can always be paid for.

Sure. But is it worth paying for?
There are just so many better strats that can also use the CP.

It's situational, but that doesn't mean it's bad.

Game with many situational tactical options > Game with a few no-brainers that are used exclusively


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Nah Man Pichu wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Us3Less wrote:
While I find the overall change to overwatch interesting, I'm not too thrilled that it costs CP. What we've seen so far is that the "More CP than ever" is exaggerated compared to for example what a Brigade or double Battalion would give you. When every 'basic' action is going to cost CP as well, we'll end up actually having less CP for the fun stratagems. Perhaps we just don't know enough yet, but the picture given so far is not only positive regarding the "more CP" slogan.

Maybe for gun line armies looking to stop charging units. But not for those of us doing the charging.

I like this a lot.

Yeah while obviously we need to wait until the rubber meets the road, on paper this is a very exciting change.

Honestly, if they make Fall Back a strat, along with OW and CTD it would be the perfect trifecta.

Wasn't Fall Back confirmed to be a strat? Or am I thinking of something else?

I don't think so given the number of people complaining that it isn't.

I think we are also moving towards codified USR thank god..

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Us3Less wrote:
While I find the overall change to overwatch interesting, I'm not too thrilled that it costs CP. What we've seen so far is that the "More CP than ever" is exaggerated compared to for example what a Brigade or double Battalion would give you. When every 'basic' action is going to cost CP as well, we'll end up actually having less CP for the fun stratagems. Perhaps we just don't know enough yet, but the picture given so far is not only positive regarding the "more CP" slogan.

Maybe for gun line armies looking to stop charging units. But not for those of us doing the charging.

I like this a lot.

It's not like most units had particularly good overwatch.

 Nah Man Pichu wrote:

Voss wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Us3Less wrote:
While I find the overall change to overwatch interesting, I'm not too thrilled that it costs CP. What we've seen so far is that the "More CP than ever" is exaggerated compared to for example what a Brigade or double Battalion would give you. When every 'basic' action is going to cost CP as well, we'll end up actually having less CP for the fun stratagems. Perhaps we just don't know enough yet, but the picture given so far is not only positive regarding the "more CP" slogan.

Or we'll have to build our armies up around the fun strats we want to use instead of using rerolls, or maybe even Overwatch.

We get at least a CP a turn though, so Overwatch can always be paid for.

Sure. But is it worth paying for?
There are just so many better strats that can also use the CP.

Maybe, but then there's also that well-placed Aggressor or Retribution squad that's covering a key shooting unit. If nothing else they can act as great deterrants. Also, as one of the bigger time wasters, I don't see any problem with OW being relegated to the nosebleed section of tactical options.

Good to have in the pocket, no longer a no-brainer.

Also, it makes factions/units with OW benefits that much more unique, which is also a good thing.

I largely agree, Overwatch largely is a time waster, and the change is largely good. But it is a big change back (and not for the first time in the history of Overwatch), and GW often doesn't grasp how big some of their changes are.

I disagree on that last point, however. By generally relegating it to a back-tier 'maybe' strat, factions/units with real OW benefits will be a problem. Either by being over/under costed or GW not appreciating how game changing they can be.

 Nah Man Pichu wrote:
From the Community article:

Be careful, though – a savvy enemy might be able to catch you off-guard if you’re in their deployment zone. The Strategic Reserves rule allows a unit to deploy on their own table edge, even if it’s within Engagement Range (1”) of an enemy, and proceed to make attacks as though they charged! This is such a situational rarity that it probably won’t come up very often, but a stunt like that completely bypasses Overwatch to surprise unwary or careless opponents.

Interesting tidbit I thought.

As they said rare. More of interest is no limit on how close you come to enemy near own edge so flamer/melta counter deploy 6" from own edge and shoot. And easy charbdge

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Voss wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Us3Less wrote:
While I find the overall change to overwatch interesting, I'm not too thrilled that it costs CP. What we've seen so far is that the "More CP than ever" is exaggerated compared to for example what a Brigade or double Battalion would give you. When every 'basic' action is going to cost CP as well, we'll end up actually having less CP for the fun stratagems. Perhaps we just don't know enough yet, but the picture given so far is not only positive regarding the "more CP" slogan.

Or we'll have to build our armies up around the fun strats we want to use instead of using rerolls, or maybe even Overwatch.

We get at least a CP a turn though, so Overwatch can always be paid for.

Sure. But is it worth paying for?
There are just so many better strats that can also use the CP.

It's situational, but that doesn't mean it's bad.

Eh. Its situational to the point of 'if I'm not rolling tons of dice or have 5+ flamers' I'm never going to use it, it turns no brainer again, and that is bad.

The limit to once per phase is virtually irrelevant, it's very rare you're charging more than one unit with significant overwatch in the first place, and if you are, you're almost certainly turning it off against at least one of them. Because overwatch was so ubiquitous in 8th, any combat army basically had to have some way of ignoring it, either directly, through using soakers, or through using terrain. And T'au get to at least partially ignore the mechanic, which is the only army where you would potentially have to face multiple units worth of overwatch regularly.

The big thing is it costing 1CP. This is going to amount to a 2-3CP tax over the course of the average game for a gunline, which is significant...but only if that stuff on the stream about "the strat isn't the only way to overwatch" turns out to be minor. If it turns out that every major unit (+ every space marine unit period because Space Marines(TM)) gets free overwatch, this whole thing is pretty much pointless anyway.

In any case, overwatch wasn't the issue for melee in 8th, the issue was the free fall back with virtually no consequences that meant that unless you could trap a unit, your melee unit always died the turn after charging.

All the changes to overwatch in the world won't compensate for the nerf to melee that would occur if they gave a fall back strat that lets you fall back even if you are wrapped, for example.

Voss wrote:

WarCom wrote:Overall, this is a huge boost to massed assault armies, such as Orks or Tyranids, that excel at smashing dozens of units into the enemy line all at once. Where previously, each one of those units would face retaliatory fire, now, your opponent will only be able to target ONE of your changing units, so will have to choose very carefully indeed! Do you stop the rampaging Trygon from smashing a tank or that horde of 30 Hormagaunts from shredding an infantry platoon? No easy choice.

Yeah, ok, this is good for melee armies. But this example is pants-on-head stupid. Firing overwatch with a single unit, hitting only on 6s is NOT going to stop a trygon.

If you've got the spare CP and a good shooting unit, you might shoot at the Hormagaunts to do some damage, but barring flametanks or something similar, you're not going to do significant damage to a trygon, so it IS an easy choice.

Of course, the even easier choice is 'never waste CP on overwatch,' because paying and praying for 6s is statistically poor, but there are exceptions.

----
Various free overwatch rules are going to be interesting for the general army composition trends. I'm curious how many people will prioritize it, and how many will treat it as a dead rule with no game impact.

Depends on unit that you charged now don't you? I have stopped 12w t8 vehicle with ow. Exorcist is risky prospect to charge(18 wounds would have been just as dead). Not likely but bigger impact than shooting handfull boyz

 Tyran wrote:
Of course such changes should also come with very large point discounts on such models.

But stuff is going UP in 9e

yukishiro1 wrote:
The limit to once per phase is virtually irrelevant, it's very rare you're charging more than one unit with significant overwatch in the first place, and if you are, you're almost certainly turning it off against at least one of them. Because overwatch was so ubiquitous in 8th, any combat army basically had to have some way of ignoring it, either directly, through using soakers, or through using terrain. And T'au get to at least partially ignore the mechanic, which is the only army where you would potentially have to face multiple units worth of overwatch regularly.

The big thing is it costing 1CP. This is going to amount to a 2-3CP tax over the course of the average game for a gunline, which is significant...but only if that stuff on the stream about "the strat isn't the only way to overwatch" turns out to be minor. If it turns out that every major unit (+ every space marine unit period because Space Marines(TM)) gets free overwatch, this whole thing is pretty much pointless anyway.

In any case, overwatch wasn't the issue for melee in 8th, the issue was the free fall back with virtually no consequences that meant that unless you could trap a unit, your melee unit always died the turn after charging.

All the changes to overwatch in the world won't compensate for the nerf to melee that would occur if they gave a fall back strat that lets you fall back even if you are wrapped, for example.

One issue is game becomes more and more unscalable though. Funny how they keep saying game works with every game size while making sure game works well in 1 size only

So do you get to overwatch for the remainder of the phase or just that unit? Say I have a 9" charge with a chaff unit and you pay to overwatch them, and my guys either die or don't make it in. Do you get to overwatch my other unit trying for a charge in the same phase then?

 Vector Strike wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
Of course such changes should also come with very large point discounts on such models.

But stuff is going UP in 9e

If others go up 20% and you go up 5% you get discount. And as we already have seen all won't go up same %

Its a big deal for me, my mate runs a knight valiant and every single game it flamers stuff off the board charging it.

Now not only does he have to decide to use overwatch or not for 1cp he has to risk the chaff unit i chuck in first failing and saving the overwatch for the thing i actually want to make it in.

if the chaff makes it in it stops overwatch for the other anyway so its a really horrible positition for this model

Voss wrote:

Eh. Its situational to the point of 'if I'm not rolling tons of dice or have 5+ flamers' I'm never going to use it, it turns no brainer again, and that is bad.

This. Going from "everybody does it " to "nobody does it" isnt a net positive.

I understand the changing of Overwatch to speed up the game and help melee armies out a bit...but...1CP to shoot the crazy nastys charging me? 0CP, full stop. Why am I being penalized for shooting the crazy nastys charging? I only get one shot at it now...and I have to pay CP for it? Which is more important because both seem to be over swinging the hammer.

Wait for full picture, Wait for full release, Don't make assumptions...:(:(:(

Edit: HOLY F!@# didn't think of flamers...wtf GW as if Sisters iconic weapon wasn't being sidelined enough.

 Twoshoes23 wrote:
I understand the changing of Overwatch to speed up the game and help melee armies out a bit...but...1CP to shoot the crazy nastys charging me? 0CP, full stop. Why am I being penalized for shooting the crazy nastys charging? I only get one shot at it now...and I have to pay CP for it? Which is more important because both seem to be over swinging the hammer.

Wait for full picture, Wait for full release, Don't make assumptions...:(:(:(

If I have to pay one CP to use "Cut them down" when you Fall Back on top of being super careful when moving a melee unit to avoid as much fire as possible AND to try to prevent you from Falling Back the turn after I charged because of bad rolls or whatever, the least you can do is to pay one CP for OW.

PiñaColada wrote:
So do you get to overwatch for the remainder of the phase or just that unit? Say I have a 9" charge with a chaff unit and you pay to overwatch them, and my guys either die or don't make it in. Do you get to overwatch my other unit trying for a charge in the same phase then?

Just the one unit, OW is made before the charge roll for the unit that declared the charge is made.

 Twoshoes23 wrote:
I understand the changing of Overwatch to speed up the game and help melee armies out a bit...but...1CP to shoot the crazy nastys charging me? 0CP, full stop. Why am I being penalized for shooting the crazy nastys charging? I only get one shot at it now...and I have to pay CP for it? Which is more important because both seem to be over swinging the hammer.

Wait for full picture, Wait for full release, Don't make assumptions...:(:(:(

Edit: HOLY F!@# didn't think of flamers...wtf GW as if Sisters iconic weapon wasn't being sidelined enough.

Somebody has managed to shoot 8" flamers in OW? I have yet to do that trick even once. Everybody I play are smart enough to charge 8.1" away if the unit actually cares few flamers. Or do 3d6 with rerolls charge out of deep strike which negates flamers anyway.

tneva82 wrote:

 Twoshoes23 wrote:
I understand the changing of Overwatch to speed up the game and help melee armies out a bit...but...1CP to shoot the crazy nastys charging me? 0CP, full stop. Why am I being penalized for shooting the crazy nastys charging? I only get one shot at it now...and I have to pay CP for it? Which is more important because both seem to be over swinging the hammer.

Wait for full picture, Wait for full release, Don't make assumptions...:(:(:(

Edit: HOLY F!@# didn't think of flamers...wtf GW as if Sisters iconic weapon wasn't being sidelined enough.

Somebody has managed to shoot 8" flamers in OW? I have yet to do that trick even once. Everybody I play are smart enough to charge 8.1" away if the unit actually cares few flamers. Or do 3d6 with rerolls charge out of deep strike which negates flamers anyway.

An 8" charge isn't that easy to pull off.

yukishiro1 wrote:
The limit to once per phase is virtually irrelevant, it's very rare you're charging more than one unit with significant overwatch in the first place, and if you are, you're almost certainly turning it off against at least one of them.

Uh? So people won't be charging both my flamer dominions and my immolator now?

It's a really big deal for flamers, not so much for other weapons.
Also the rule description doesn't mention it explicitly, but I guess we still measure range from the starting point of the charge, which is also sad for flamers. And flamers don't get the blast rule. I guess at least Immolators can shoot in melee now, so not everything is wasted ^^.

Dudeface wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Twoshoes23 wrote:
I understand the changing of Overwatch to speed up the game and help melee armies out a bit...but...1CP to shoot the crazy nastys charging me? 0CP, full stop. Why am I being penalized for shooting the crazy nastys charging? I only get one shot at it now...and I have to pay CP for it? Which is more important because both seem to be over swinging the hammer.

Wait for full picture, Wait for full release, Don't make assumptions...:(:(:(

Edit: HOLY F!@# didn't think of flamers...wtf GW as if Sisters iconic weapon wasn't being sidelined enough.

Somebody has managed to shoot 8" flamers in OW? I have yet to do that trick even once. Everybody I play are smart enough to charge 8.1" away if the unit actually cares few flamers. Or do 3d6 with rerolls charge out of deep strike which negates flamers anyway.

An 8" charge isn't that easy to pull off.

Serious assault units don't roll 2d6 and that's it. They have modifiers and/or rerolls(both or single dice) making odds to around 80% as a very least like with orks.

And of course most units don't care too much about few flamers. And if they do still option to drive in empty rhino to prevent overwatch. Problem solved.

tneva82 wrote:
Somebody has managed to shoot 8" flamers in OW?

Sisters have 12" heavy flamers (on retributors) and 12" immolation flamers (on immolators).

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Somebody has managed to shoot 8" flamers in OW?

Sisters have 12" heavy flamers (on retributors) and 12" immolation flamers (on immolators).

Retributor stratagem(not usable in OW anyway) gave reroll to wounds for flamers. Range boost is multi meltas.

Immolator isn't something many opponents will worry anyway. And the few units that do you can still ram empty rhino or something first, laugh overwatch and then charge in with rest.


And besides you can still fire that OW with that 1 unit. Assuming immolator doesn't say get even the native ability in day1 errata among others. And even if not I take ability to fire out of melee over ow any day. Bigger buff for the junk unit.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
The limit to once per phase is virtually irrelevant, it's very rare you're charging more than one unit with significant overwatch in the first place, and if you are, you're almost certainly turning it off against at least one of them.

Uh? So people won't be charging both my flamer dominions and my immolator now?

It's a really big deal for flamers, not so much for other weapons.
Also the rule description doesn't mention it explicitly, but I guess we still measure range from the starting point of the charge, which is also sad for flamers. And flamers don't get the blast rule. I guess at least Immolators can shoot in melee now, so not everything is wasted ^^.

Why would anyone charge your flamer dominions and flamer immolator in 8th edition unless they don't know how to play 40k? Far better to just charge one and wrap the other. That way you avoid overwatch from the one you don't charge and avoid the possibility of accidentally killing it, while protecting yourself next turn as well.

But if you really were going to do that...chances are you'd have some way to turn off the overwatch on one or both of those. How many combat armies don't have an overwatch immune unit or a psychic power to disable it? Virtually none, and even the armies that don't have things like repulsors with the 4++ that excel at soaking overwatch.

Overwatch just didn't matter much in competitive 8th edition 40k. Falling back is the big issue.

The rules but with full stop this time.

 Twoshoes23 wrote:
I understand the changing of Overwatch to speed up the game and help melee armies out a bit...but...1CP to shoot the crazy nastys charging me? 0CP, full stop. Why am I being penalized for shooting the crazy nastys charging? I only get one shot at it now...and I have to pay CP for it? Which is more important because both seem to be over swinging the hammer.

Wait for full picture, Wait for full release, Don't make assumptions...:(:(:(

Edit: HOLY F!@# didn't think of flamers...wtf GW as if Sisters iconic weapon wasn't being sidelined enough.

If Cut Them Down costs CP, then yes, Overwatch needs to cost CP too.