Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Looks like characters will need to be played a bit smarter in the next edition.

Biggest concern, for me, is that wording at the start.

As in you can't target units that contain characters? As in characters can join units? As in deathstars? That's what I saw.

 Tyran wrote:
Regarding the Cut Them Down. I would have preferred an inverse overwatch.

Basically a free melee activation, but without pile in nor consolidation and that only hits on 6s.

Someone on Reddit did the match and Cut Them Down trumps an inverse Overwatch on anyone who isn't a character with a truckload of attacks since it skips needing to wound and then get past saves.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Spoiler:

 puma713 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
I think the issue is that
1) falling back from a unit that is not a melee expert should be easy, because we don't want a unit of sisters to deactivate a unit of necron warriors by charging them with a few remaining survivors.
2) falling back from a unit that is a melee expert should not be easy, because turning your back to a unit of nobz, banshees, assault terminators or khorne berzerkers and running should end in your death.

Judging from cut them down, I somehow doubt that GW managed to tackle this properly.

Remember when you could catch the enemy and completely destroy them if they fell back in 5th? It makes very little sense that we have no mechanic whatsoever from deterring falling back and the strategem is a half-measure. I agree with others that the health of 9th is largely tied to the outcome of falling back. I just hope they haven't ignored it outside of Cut Them Down, which is my fear.

You folk are ridiculous.


You will never be able to justify the complaining that this is somehow less powerful than "Fire Overwatch" or "Fall Back" now that we've got an idea as to what is going on with "Fire Overwatch". "Cut Them Down" is a fricking gamechanger and people have done nothing but complain that it 'isn't enough'.

We now know that "Fire Overwatch" is a stratagem that costs 1CP, can only be used once per phase(meaning once per turn effectively) by one unit, and that certain units might have their own version of it or modifiers for it but that Overwatch isn't exactly available on every unit anymore. Units firing as part of "Fire Overwatch" still have to roll to hit on 6s and still then have to roll to Wound.
"Cut Them Down" is a stratagem that costs 1 CP and lets every model within Engagement Range of the Falling Back enemy unit roll one D6 before any models in that unit are moved. For each 6, the enemy unit suffers 1 mortal wound. If you cannot see that such a stratagem will be fairly powerful with the kind of tripointing strategies currently in play? That's on you all. Because it isn't a small thing.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree. I don't think being able to use a single strategem for a 17% chance to cause a mortal wound per model is worth having my unit completely obliterated next turn. That is still the issue. Not only that, but now I have to pay a CP to do it. So, you can still leave combat, I MIGHT cause 1-2 wounds on you when you, then you focus fire my melee unit. What is the incentive for rushing in, chainswords drawn, again?

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
pachow
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/06/18/faction-focus-adepta-sororitasgw-homepage-post-4fw-homepage-post-4/

So, Celestine isn't bodyguarded by her bodyguards anymore.

Court of the Archon is useless now.

Wonderful. I didn't realise GW could sink even lower down the barrel of crap rules writing.

How so? Wouldn't Court be stronger now, as you have to go through 2 sets of bodyguard, one normal unit and then the court to get the Archon?

haha it is quite funny though because as i'm reading it.

If you had say two daemon princes side by side that are an equal distance from the enemy firer, you cant shoot either of them no matter how close you are?!

Man Basilisk and Manticora have become the best snipers of the game!


I understand what they wanted to fix with this rule but I believe they are going too hard on the other extreme, this will make characters extremely vulnerable.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Looks like characters will need to be played a bit smarter in the next edition.

Biggest concern, for me, is that wording at the start.

As in you can't target units that contain characters? As in characters can join units? As in deathstars? That's what I saw.

Characters are units already. If they weren't they'd be ineligible to be targetted by auras that target units.

Something a lot of people have missed:

No more consolidating into units you didn't reach to attack with a fight twice ability!

I guess because free Overwatch is removed, they had to remove that ability because there is now no downside.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Looks like characters will need to be played a bit smarter in the next edition.

Biggest concern, for me, is that wording at the start.

As in you can't target units that contain characters? As in characters can join units? As in deathstars? That's what I saw.

Characters are units already. If they weren't they'd be ineligible to be targetted by auras that target units.

It is covering units like Fabius Bile; a character with an assistant following him around.

 Latro_ wrote:
haha it is quite funny though because as i'm reading it.

If you had say two daemon princes side by side that are an equal distance from the enemy firer, you cant shoot either of them no matter how close you are?!

Pretty sure you can? If you select one of the demon princes as a target you just ignore the other one. It says it right there.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Looks like characters will need to be played a bit smarter in the next edition.

Biggest concern, for me, is that wording at the start.

As in you can't target units that contain characters? As in characters can join units? As in deathstars? That's what I saw.

Characters are units already. If they weren't they'd be ineligible to be targetted by auras that target units.

I think it is for things like Celestine and her bodyguard. Means Celestine is still untargetable even with them as long as she isn't closest and within 3 of another unit

 Latro_ wrote:
haha it is quite funny though because as i'm reading it.

If you had say two daemon princes side by side that are an equal distance from the enemy firer, you cant shoot either of them no matter how close you are?!

It clearly says that you ignore characters in the rule. Maybe more reading, less formatting your posts for your "hot takes".

 Galas wrote:
Man Basilisk and Manticora have become the best snipers of the game!


I understand what they wanted to fix with this rule but I believe they are going too hard on the other extreme, this will make characters extremely vulnerable.

How? I don't think they can ignore the targeting rule.

Anyways, credit where credit is due; the Sisters preview article was good and the sort of thing I would like to see. It touched on some problems being addressed, as well as some new tactical options AND difficulties for players.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Something a lot of people have missed:

No more consolidating into units you didn't reach to attack with a fight twice ability!

Also no declaring charges at two units your between so you can go for a long charge while having a short charge to fall back on.

I am indeed a fool

sorry

I am indeed a fool

Doohicky wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Looks like characters will need to be played a bit smarter in the next edition.

Biggest concern, for me, is that wording at the start.

As in you can't target units that contain characters? As in characters can join units? As in deathstars? That's what I saw.

Characters are units already. If they weren't they'd be ineligible to be targetted by auras that target units.

I think it is for things like Celestine and her bodyguard. Means Celestine is still untargetable even with them as long as she isn't closest and within 3 of another unit

Its even stronger than that. As it refers to the unit containing a character, that means you can have one of her gemini within 3" to get protection as well .
So you have to kill a unit of sisters and then the gemini to be able to damage Celestine.

This isn't for "maybe killing 1 or 2 guardsmen" unless you're doing trash like has been mentioned elsewhere of using non-CC weapon attacks to tie an enemy unit up from shooting rather than actually killing them. It's for when an enemy unit that actually matters leaves combat after you surrounded them.

It won't get used unless it has a realistic chance of actually hurting that 'unit that actually matters'. So almost never.

Regarding the Cut Them Down. I would have preferred an inverse overwatch.

Basically a free melee activation, but without pile in nor consolidation and that only hits on 6s.

This would have made vastly more sense. And actually be worth 1cp most of the time.

I’m surprised that rules were revealed in the faction focus rather in a dedicated article.

I like the new restrictions on multi charges. I was happy with the changes to overwatch but was worried about there no longer being a mechanic to discourage Hail Mary multicharges. This has sorted that out for me.

The character targeting rule is a big improvement over 8th, my only concern is that it will further encourage blobbing together both for auras and for character protection. Hopefully some change to aura rules will help this (order style on one unit selected in the command phase, or a unit can only benefit from one aura at a time would both work for me)

I’m a little concerned by the hints about morale. It will punish large units seems off, and apparently it will also punish small units, so mid sized is best. But then it’s compared to the blast rules which they claim also favour mid sized, but I thought that blast favoured MSU, I'm a little confused. Also, I want morale to mean something and have a genuine impact on the game, but the passing remark that “failing a morale check is devastating” is a bit worrying. I was hoping with the hints at an attrition system that morale would do something other than add to the lethality or effectively take a unit out of action entirely. I’m still holding out hope, but it looks like it isn’t going that way.

Doohicky wrote:
I think it is for things like Celestine and her bodyguard. Means Celestine is still untargetable even with them as long as she isn't closest and within 3 of another unit

She is only untargetable if she is within range of ANOTHER unit, her bodyguards no longer protect her as they are only a 2 model unit, thus negating the entire reason the unit exists.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Looks like characters will need to be played a bit smarter in the next edition.

Biggest concern, for me, is that wording at the start.

As in you can't target units that contain characters? As in characters can join units? As in deathstars? That's what I saw.

Nothing says characters can join units, you're just extrapolating based on previous editions.

A character alone IS a unit.
A character with minion(s) (fabius, mekboys, etc) are also a unit

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Man Basilisk and Manticora have become the best snipers of the game!


I understand what they wanted to fix with this rule but I believe they are going too hard on the other extreme, this will make characters extremely vulnerable.

How? I don't think they can ignore the targeting rule.

Tell me what character can survive 3 manticores or 3 basilisk firing at everything thats 3" of him and then him (And thats easy on the first turn. The moment you start moving you won't have that much units at 3" of all of your characters) . Or any kind of character that maybe you would use alone with LOS blocking terrain.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Doohicky wrote:
I think it is for things like Celestine and her bodyguard. Means Celestine is still untargetable even with them as long as she isn't closest and within 3 of another unit

She is only untargetable if she is within range of ANOTHER unit, her bodyguards no longer protect her as they are only a 2 model unit, thus negating the entire reason the unit exists.

Geminae Superiora became useless the moment they were separated from Celestine, but they have the bodyguard rule, they can still soak wounds for Celestine.

 Latro_ wrote:
haha it is quite funny though because as i'm reading it.

If you had say two daemon princes side by side that are an equal distance from the enemy firer, you cant shoot either of them no matter how close you are?!

no because the thing says you ignore other character models right at the bottom of the rule why are we doing big text?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Its even stronger than that. As it refers to the unit containing a character, that means you can have one of her gemini within 3" to get protection as well .
So you have to kill a unit of sisters and then the gemini to be able to damage Celestine.

Ok, let's break this down.

Celetine and the Geminae are on the field, 12" away from any other units.

I can shoot Celestine, because she is not within 3" of a valid unit to protect her.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Are you really going to sit there and pretend that a Dreadnought, 5 Deathwing Knights, or 10 Banshees are probably not going to have killed a 10 Guardsman squad after having shot, successfully charged, and then fought them?

Once again:
Roll one D6 for each model from your army that is within Engagement Range of that enemy unit.

This isn't for "maybe killing 1 or 2 guardsmen" unless you're doing trash like has been mentioned elsewhere of using non-CC weapon attacks to tie an enemy unit up from shooting rather than actually killing them. It's for when an enemy unit that actually matters leaves combat after you surrounded them.

 xttz wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

"Cut Them Down" ...

Once more 9E-compatible faction rules start appearing i fully expect to see unit- or weapon-specific traits that affect this stratagem. Much like how some units can still trigger overwatch on 5+, you could easily see specialist units doing the same with Cut Them Down. Lash Whips anyone?

Ayup--or just more unit or weapon specific traits that let you strike when an enemy falls back.

OK, maybe not DW knights, but banshees and a single dreadnought will do jack to most units, and the chance of actually hurting them further with 1CP is minimal and a waste, but apparently you're the only one that can't see that. So tell me, why are your 20 conscripts better at causing MW on a retreating foe than a single Bloodthirster? I'll wait.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Its even stronger than that. As it refers to the unit containing a character, that means you can have one of her gemini within 3" to get protection as well .
So you have to kill a unit of sisters and then the gemini to be able to damage Celestine.

Ok, let's break this down.

Celetine and the Geminae are on the field, 12" away from any other units.

I can shoot Celestine, because she is not within 3" of a valid unit to protect her.

The Gemini and Celestine are part of the same unit, right? So no, you can't shoot directly at Celestine. You shoot at her unit and the Gemini takes the hits.

On the morale thing very early on Stu Black mentioned a word 'attrition' when talking about morale.

I'm assuming how that morale tests even being taken has some sort of negative effect on the unit for the rest of the game over loosing models. This would impact bigger units more.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Doohicky wrote:
I think it is for things like Celestine and her bodyguard. Means Celestine is still untargetable even with them as long as she isn't closest and within 3 of another unit

She is only untargetable if she is within range of ANOTHER unit, her bodyguards no longer protect her as they are only a 2 model unit, thus negating the entire reason the unit exists.

Yes I know. That's why it ends with the bit in bold. The another unit I refer to is something other than the bodyguards

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Looks like characters will need to be played a bit smarter in the next edition.

Biggest concern, for me, is that wording at the start.

As in you can't target units that contain characters? As in characters can join units? As in deathstars? That's what I saw.

Characters are units already. If they weren't they'd be ineligible to be targetted by auras that target units.

It is covering units like Fabius Bile; a character with an assistant following him around.

You guys are probably right, that's probably what it is. I hope it is.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
haha it is quite funny though because as i'm reading it.

If you had say two daemon princes side by side that are an equal distance from the enemy firer, you cant shoot either of them no matter how close you are?!

no because the thing says you ignore other character models right at the bottom of the rule why are we doing big text?

because i'm a massive massive 37 year old hyper idiot when new rules come out and i dont read them fully and i'm working on it