40k 9th edition, : App released page 413

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**BaconCatBug**

Only in matched play!

So, the Daemon Princes hiding each other thing, that's 100% true. You only ignore other characters for the purposes of the closest rule. Two Daemon Princes 1" from each other, with a unit of cultists 5" away, if the cultists are closer, the Daemon Princes can't be shot.

Dode sums it up nicely here:

Spoiler:

**the_scotsman**

still a vast, vast reduction in weird gamey situations from the current rule. you're always going to be able to set up some kind of bizarre 'unimmersive' situation - it is a wargame using miniatures on a tabletop and not an actual war, after all - but it's much, MUCH less likely to be wacky than it once was.

**BaconCatBug**

It's a lot more confusing. Honestly, just say "Cannot be targeted if within 2" of another friendly unit, other than CHARACTERS."

Here is the Daemon Prince situation explained. Yes, it's stupid. Let's hope this gets patched Day 1 because it's beyond unintuitive.

Spoiler:

**Ghaz**

the_scotsman wrote:
Ghaz wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Sorry, wait - why is heavy weapons movement by model and not by unit MORE consistent?

If I Advance with one model can I then shoot with the other models' non-Assault type shooting weapons later that turn?

Advancing is a unit action in 8th, so even if the model with the heavy weapon didn't move it still advanced.

yeah, that was my point. Most statuses carried forward from the movement phase were based on what the UNIT did, except for "did they move" which was based on what the MODEL did.

the new rule makes the rules of "what did they do in the movement phase" more consistent, not less, which is what the person I was responded to claimed.

You missed my point that Advance has different wording than Movement in 8th edition:

Start your Movement phase by picking one of your units and moving each model in that unit until you’ve moved all the models you want to.

Advancing is done by units, Movement is done by models.

**the_scotsman**

Ghaz wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Ghaz wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Sorry, wait - why is heavy weapons movement by model and not by unit MORE consistent?

If I Advance with one model can I then shoot with the other models' non-Assault type shooting weapons later that turn?

Advancing is a unit action in 8th, so even if the model with the heavy weapon didn't move it still advanced.

yeah, that was my point. Most statuses carried forward from the movement phase were based on what the UNIT did, except for "did they move" which was based on what the MODEL did.

the new rule makes the rules of "what did they do in the movement phase" more consistent, not less, which is what the person I was responded to claimed.

You missed my point that Advance has different wording than Movement in 8th edition:

Start your Movement phase by picking one of your units and moving each model in that unit until you’ve moved all the models you want to.

Advancing is done by units, Movement is done by models.

And in 9th, we have seen that this is no longer the case in the wording of several rules. Units make a Normal Move or an Advance Move - see Aircraft, etc. Presumably, a Fall Back move, a Charge Move, a Heroic Intervention, etc will all be types of rules that can then have rules hung on them.

**Abadabadoobaddon**

BaconCatBug wrote:
It's a lot more confusing. Honestly, just say "Cannot be targeted if within 2" of another friendly unit, other than CHARACTERS."

Here is the Daemon Prince situation explained. Yes, it's stupid. Let's hope this gets patched Day 1 because it's beyond unintuitive.

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

I'd like to point out that nothing in the rule requires that the cultists need to be visible for this to work. In fact, if the cultists and daemon princes are the whole army and the cultists are behind obscuring terrain then nobody can be shot. Yay!

**yukishiro1**

Yeah look out sir is fundamentally broken. A lone death jester standing there can be shot even if he's not closest target, but two death jesters standing together can not be, as long as they're within 3" and there's something somewhere on the board closer.

Just means your characters now have to go around holding hands with another character and they're fine.

How did this make it through playtesting? Downright embarrassing.

edit: Oops, done goofed. It's gotta be a pair of vehicle or monster characters holding hands to break the rule.

**Abadabadoobaddon**

yukishiro1 wrote:
Yeah look out sir is fundamentally broken. A lone death jester standing there can be shot even if he's not closest target, but two death jesters standing together can not be, as long as they're within 3" and there's something somewhere on the board closer.

Just means your characters now have to go around holding hands with another character and they're fine.

How did this make it through playtesting? Downright embarrassing.

Are death jesters monsters, vehicles or 3 models each? If not, I don't think this works.

**cuda1179**

yukishiro1 wrote:
Yeah look out sir is fundamentally broken. A lone death jester standing there can be shot even if he's not closest target, but two death jesters standing together can not be, as long as they're within 3" and there's something somewhere on the board closer.

Just means your characters now have to go around holding hands with another character and they're fine.

How did this make it through playtesting? Downright embarrassing.

That's not how that works.

**the_scotsman**

yukishiro1 wrote:
Yeah look out sir is fundamentally broken. A lone death jester standing there can be shot even if he's not closest target, but two death jesters standing together can not be, as long as they're within 3" and there's something somewhere on the board closer.

Just means your characters now have to go around holding hands with another character and they're fine.

How did this make it through playtesting? Downright embarrassing.

Um...nope?

the reason people are talking about daemon princes is because you're never gonna get an INFANTRY character with a unit that has 3 or more models...

**Uriels_Flame**

Because their English is different from ours.

This rule has never had a good definition. If it is longer than half a page for one rule, maybe get rid of it.

Or go back to Warmaster and just have them provide the buffs and let the units do the work.

**yukishiro1**

Oh, hmm, I guess that's right. So it's gotta be two vehicle characters or monster characters holding hands.

**Ghaz**

the_scotsman wrote:
Ghaz wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Ghaz wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Sorry, wait - why is heavy weapons movement by model and not by unit MORE consistent?

If I Advance with one model can I then shoot with the other models' non-Assault type shooting weapons later that turn?

Advancing is a unit action in 8th, so even if the model with the heavy weapon didn't move it still advanced.

yeah, that was my point. Most statuses carried forward from the movement phase were based on what the UNIT did, except for "did they move" which was based on what the MODEL did.

the new rule makes the rules of "what did they do in the movement phase" more consistent, not less, which is what the person I was responded to claimed.

You missed my point that Advance has different wording than Movement in 8th edition:

Start your Movement phase by picking one of your units and moving each model in that unit until you’ve moved all the models you want to.

Advancing is done by units, Movement is done by models.

And in 9th, we have seen that this is no longer the case in the wording of several rules. Units make a Normal Move or an Advance Move - see Aircraft, etc. Presumably, a Fall Back move, a Charge Move, a Heroic Intervention, etc will all be types of rules that can then have rules hung on them.

Then my first post (where I specifically stated 8th edition) didn't make your 'point'?

**yukishiro1**

the_scotsman wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
Yeah look out sir is fundamentally broken. A lone death jester standing there can be shot even if he's not closest target, but two death jesters standing together can not be, as long as they're within 3" and there's something somewhere on the board closer.

Just means your characters now have to go around holding hands with another character and they're fine.

How did this make it through playtesting? Downright embarrassing.

Um...nope?

the reason people are talking about daemon princes is because you're never gonna get an INFANTRY character with a unit that has 3 or more models...

Well, not never. The Magus and Patriarch can both take two familiars, for example, which is enough to meet the requirements. But yes, it'll be rare to have the super friends holding hands means you can't target us thing come up.

**Niiai**

DanielFM wrote:
Niiai wrote:
Eldenfirefly wrote:
Leth wrote:
I hope tri-pointing is gone just from a gamey perspective. Never felt good doing it.

It resulted in melee twisting itself into ridiculous knots as well. Picture a bunch of orcs charging down a unit of guardmen. Maybe the whole squad could have made it into close combat. But instead, said massive orcs would touch with just one model and fight with that one model, do zero kills, let the guardsmen swing back with all their attacks, and then consolidate, hence tri pointing and preventing said squad from falling back. It was a valid tactic because you didn't want to get shot up in the opponent's turn. But narratively this is literally what happened based on the above.

Big squad of orcs charge down ten guardsmen. Orcs go :" wahhhhhhhh !!!!"

Then, orcs inexplicably make the charge, but halt just outside of melee range. "Wahhhhh!!!!! screeches to a halt, and only one orc swings".

The rest of the orcs, stand there like idiots, buff out their chests and taunt the guardsmen "Just swing at us! give us your best shot!"

Guardsmen pile in, swing their attacks, and take out a few orcs.

Now, the orcs consolidate into battle and tri point the guardsmen. They then kill them in the opponent phase.

I mean, its a good game play... but narratively, it was so stupid? I mean, look at the above. Why would the orcs do something like that in an actual battle field? lol It would make zero sense.... lol

So just to be shure, your interpetation of the battle through an abstract game system is that it is an litteral represrntation as well? So all units stand around and move one at a time, waiting their turn? Sounds rather stiff.

It's trying to make some "real life" sense out of gameplay. Tripointing is so far from what you would expect from a real battle it is no longer abstraction. It's completely detached from the feeling of a sci-fi battle. Chess is a very well designed, fun game. But abstraction is so strong it no longer bears any ressemblance to a real battle. Is that what you want?

If I wanted to play chess I would not play warammer 40K. But chess of a good game. So is Football (or soccer if you are in America.) The lodoistic elements should come over the narative element in a game system, in most cases.

**Jimbobbyish**

I feel like you guys are missing that fact that you ignore other character models when determining who is closer, the demon princes do not protect each other because you ignore one when targeting another.

**kodos**

Jimbobbyish wrote:
I feel like you guys are missing that fact that you ignore other character models when determining who is closer, the demon princes do not protect each other because you ignore one when targeting another.

And you missing the fact that the demon prince is not closer

a different unit is closer, the prince is just there to fullfill the secound request of a unit/monster/vehicle in 3"

**Aash**

Jimbobbyish wrote:
I feel like you guys are missing that fact that you ignore other character models when determining who is closer, the demon princes do not protect each other because you ignore one when targeting another.

I think the point being made is the 2 daemon princes satisfy the “within 3” of a Monster” part for each other, so provided that there is a third (not character) unit closer to the firing unit (in any direction, including out of LOS) to satisfy the “closest target” part of the rule, then neither daemon prince can be shot at.

**Jimbobbyish**

BaconCatBug wrote:
It's a lot more confusing. Honestly, just say "Cannot be targeted if within 2" of another friendly unit, other than CHARACTERS."

Here is the Daemon Prince situation explained. Yes, it's stupid. Let's hope this gets patched Day 1 because it's beyond unintuitive.

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

the example given ignores the last part of the rule, 2 demon princes can not protect each other because you ignore characters when determining who's closer. and the bit about being unable to target characters when non characters units are closer is not new.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Aash wrote:
Jimbobbyish wrote:
I feel like you guys are missing that fact that you ignore other character models when determining who is closer, the demon princes do not protect each other because you ignore one when targeting another.

I think the point being made is the 2 daemon princes satisfy the “within 3” of a Monster” part for each other, so provided that there is a third (not character) unit closer to the firing unit (in any direction, including out of LOS) to satisfy the “closest target” part of the rule, then neither daemon prince can be shot at.

the monster bit doesn't count if your ignoring the whole character model to begin with.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
being unable to target characters when non characters units are closer is not new.

**yukishiro1**

But that's not what it says. It says the opposite, that it does count. Now presumably the INTENT is that it doesn't, but that's not what the rule says.

**Aash**

Jimbobbyish wrote:
BaconCatBug wrote:
It's a lot more confusing. Honestly, just say "Cannot be targeted if within 2" of another friendly unit, other than CHARACTERS."

Here is the Daemon Prince situation explained. Yes, it's stupid. Let's hope this gets patched Day 1 because it's beyond unintuitive.

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

the example given ignores the last part of the rule, 2 demon princes can not protect each other because you ignore characters when determining who's closer. and the bit about being unable to target characters when non characters units are closer is not new.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Aash wrote:
Jimbobbyish wrote:
I feel like you guys are missing that fact that you ignore other character models when determining who is closer, the demon princes do not protect each other because you ignore one when targeting another.

I think the point being made is the 2 daemon princes satisfy the “within 3” of a Monster” part for each other, so provided that there is a third (not character) unit closer to the firing unit (in any direction, including out of LOS) to satisfy the “closest target” part of the rule, then neither daemon prince can be shot at.
the monster bit doesn't count if your ignoring the whole character model to begin with.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
being unable to target characters when non characters units are closer is not new.

In the examples given the DPs can’t be targeted because the cultists are closer AND each DP is within 3” of a monster (the other DP in both cases). If the situation was the same with the only difference being that the two DPs were more than 3” apart then they could both be targeted irrespective of the fact that the cultists are closer. So, the DPs are protecting each other.

Edit:
It doesn’t say anything about ignoring characters for determining if you are within 3” of a monster, vehicle or unit of 3 models or more. You only ignore characters to determine what the closest target is.

**Jimbobbyish**

Aash wrote:
Jimbobbyish wrote:
BaconCatBug wrote:
It's a lot more confusing. Honestly, just say "Cannot be targeted if within 2" of another friendly unit, other than CHARACTERS."

Here is the Daemon Prince situation explained. Yes, it's stupid. Let's hope this gets patched Day 1 because it's beyond unintuitive.

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

the example given ignores the last part of the rule, 2 demon princes can not protect each other because you ignore characters when determining who's closer. and the bit about being unable to target characters when non characters units are closer is not new.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Aash wrote:
Jimbobbyish wrote:
I feel like you guys are missing that fact that you ignore other character models when determining who is closer, the demon princes do not protect each other because you ignore one when targeting another.

I think the point being made is the 2 daemon princes satisfy the “within 3” of a Monster” part for each other, so provided that there is a third (not character) unit closer to the firing unit (in any direction, including out of LOS) to satisfy the “closest target” part of the rule, then neither daemon prince can be shot at.
the monster bit doesn't count if your ignoring the whole character model to begin with.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
being unable to target characters when non characters units are closer is not new.

In the examples given the DPs can’t be targeted because the cultists are closer AND each DP is within 3” of a monster (the other DP in both cases). If the situation was the same with the only difference being that the two DPs were more than 3” apart then they could both be targeted irrespective of the fact that the cultists are closer. So, the DPs are protecting each other.

Closer non character units protecting character units is not new, but if 2 DP are equally close to a SM unit, the SM can shoot either one. 2 DP ar both characters and monsters, if a character is close to a monster they cant be targeted unless that monster is also a character because it clearly says you ignore characters when determining who is closer.

**yukishiro1**

Again...but it doesn't say you can ignore characters for seeing who's within 3" or for purposes of targeting generally.

You're just wrong here on what the rule actually says.

**Aash**

Jimbobbyish wrote:
Aash wrote:
Jimbobbyish wrote:
BaconCatBug wrote:
It's a lot more confusing. Honestly, just say "Cannot be targeted if within 2" of another friendly unit, other than CHARACTERS."

Here is the Daemon Prince situation explained. Yes, it's stupid. Let's hope this gets patched Day 1 because it's beyond unintuitive.

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

the example given ignores the last part of the rule, 2 demon princes can not protect each other because you ignore characters when determining who's closer. and the bit about being unable to target characters when non characters units are closer is not new.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Aash wrote:
Jimbobbyish wrote:
I feel like you guys are missing that fact that you ignore other character models when determining who is closer, the demon princes do not protect each other because you ignore one when targeting another.

I think the point being made is the 2 daemon princes satisfy the “within 3” of a Monster” part for each other, so provided that there is a third (not character) unit closer to the firing unit (in any direction, including out of LOS) to satisfy the “closest target” part of the rule, then neither daemon prince can be shot at.
the monster bit doesn't count if your ignoring the whole character model to begin with.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
being unable to target characters when non characters units are closer is not new.

In the examples given the DPs can’t be targeted because the cultists are closer AND each DP is within 3” of a monster (the other DP in both cases). If the situation was the same with the only difference being that the two DPs were more than 3” apart then they could both be targeted irrespective of the fact that the cultists are closer. So, the DPs are protecting each other.

Closer non character units protecting character units is not new, but if 2 DP are equally close to a SM unit, the SM can shoot either one. 2 DP ar both characters and monsters, if a character is close to a monster they cant be targeted unless that monster is also a character because it clearly says you ignore characters when determining who is closer.

Yes, but a third unit that isn’t a character, closer to the firing unit satisfies the requirements for not being closest. The other requirement of the rule is to be within 3” of a monster, vehicle or unit of 3 or more models. There is no restriction on the monster, vehicle unit of 3+ requiring that to not be a character. So in the examples given, provided the 3rd not character unit is closer to the firing unit, then the DPs cannot be shot.

If there is no 3rd unit, then yes the DPs can be shot since no unit is satisfying the requirement to be closer and not a character.

**Crimson**

I really wish they would have gotten rid of all this closest nonsense. Even without all the bugs it causes, it is just annoying and leads to time consuming micromanaging of positions. Just being within three inches of friendly unit is easy and functional condition for protection.

**Dudeface**

Well, that's not hard to fix with some minor tweaking of the wording at least, but given how many times we've had to read it and double check, I'd hazard a fair guess that it's slipped through via reader preconditioning to existing character rules and the mind filling in the blanks for it make sense.

**yukishiro1**

Crimson wrote:
I really wish they would have gotten rid of all this closest nonsense. Even without all the bugs it causes, it is just annoying and leads to time consuming micromanaging of positions. Just being within three inches of friendly unit is easy and functional condition for protection.

No, they had to do that because of certain interactions, mostly with psychic-immune characters. If you let a Culexus or Cannoness with a Null Rod sit 3" in front of your force and still be untargetable, it makes you completely immune to the vast majority of psychic powers that deal MWs, for example.

**BorderCountess**

BaconCatBug wrote:
It's a lot more confusing. Honestly, just say "Cannot be targeted if within 2" of another friendly unit, other than CHARACTERS."

Here is the Daemon Prince situation explained. Yes, it's stupid. Let's hope this gets patched Day 1 because it's beyond unintuitive.

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Maybe I'm missing something, but isn't this how shooting at characters works RIGHT NOW?!

EDIT: Nevermind... a couple more readings tells me that if the Demon Princes spread out more they both become viable targets.

**lord_blackfang**

Kanluwen wrote:

LOL, imagine thinking this stratagem is trash while nonstop whining about Fall Back being such a big deal.

If it's SUCH A BIG ISSUE, then spoiler:
This stratagem should be a big deal to you. After all, it's a hard counter to Fall Back--which we know is a fairly big deal to Blast Weapon equipped units since they cannot utilize Blast Weapons on units within Engagement Range of them.

Hrmmmh, what kind of units usually come with Blast Weapons?

Spoiler: Dealing 1-2 MW on a lucky roll is not a hard counter to anything unless you are really struggling against units of single Gretchin. Which you very well might be, given the understanding of Warhammer you have displayed today.

**yukishiro1**

It's the power of love. Two Daemon Princes, claw in claw, united in unholy matrimony, glow with such happiness that they cannot be targeted with ranged weapons, as long as they remain together.