Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

yukishiro1 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:


If anything this kills the idea of MSU melee units in TAC lists as you need to be able to weather Overwatch. Additionally, it means Overwatch denial options are still very important as well.

No, it promotes the opposite. The way you beat FTGG if you don't have overwatch suppression is to use a MSU unit to force them to waste FTGG to wipe it, then charge with a second unit that can't be overwatched except by the primary thing you're charging. It is essentially impossible to "weather" FTGG; whatever you charge with first is going to die, unless they make the cardinal mistake of splitting fire and don't commit enough units to wipe the first charger.

You throw things in that can survive being shot at, like a tank, and use things to turn off the primary unit's overwatch (Suppressors, strats, ect) so even if they break your transport, you can walk in unshootable anyways.

Biggest thing that people have been missing in todays article -

The largest challenge for the T’au Empire in the new edition is the change to the Fly keyword. It no longer offers units the ability to Fall Back and shoot, which means you need to put extra effort into screening enemy charges and preventing your critical shooting units from being engaged in combat. Thankfully, screening is about to become much more effective.

No more shooting when falling back with FLY.

yukishiro1 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:
I hate playing against Tau for pretty much the reasons stratigo mentioned. Every other faction is playing Warhammer: 40k. Tau are playing a completely different game all together. We're all playing a strategy game, they're playing a rail shooter.

They can play one, but if they aren't trying to be mobile to cap objectives and the like, they're going to lose every game in the new edition.

Plus Crisis Suits just got nerfed by that fly change to boot.

T'au are already a very mobile faction, with excellent ability to hold the middle of the board. Look at the way Siegler plays T'au; he moves to the center of the board and forces you to stay away or else anything that comes within range and LOS just dies. Reducing the board size only buffed this. The changes to FLY and fall back barely touch T'au because if you're playing T'au and letting people get into combat with your main shooters, you've already lost. That's what all those shield drones and breachers are for.

This just encourages the T'au castle even more than it did in the past, sadly.

It's a step in the wrong direction for the faction. What T'au desperately needed was better melee capability and for more of their units to be made viable, not doubling down on the castle with drone shields strategy.

What they need is to emphasize the mobility game more and hard deamphasize drone. feth drones. Get rid of them (more meaningfully, drones need to be entirely reconceptualized away from ablative wounds into something not so detrimental to the game). Make breachers and crisis suits good. Make riptides and broadsides suck.

Heck, I'd give tau more abilities for mobility in the charge phase. Sure they can't hit for gak in combat, but they got some tricks they can pull in key moments to prevent an important wipe, or get to unexpected areas.

 EnTyme wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Gotta love the fact that Tau just flt ignore the overwatch limitations the second it got implemented

It's not like they were going to suddenly not suck in melee without a massive faction redesign, so this was inevitable.

Come on, Zion. You're just highlighting one of the major flaws of 40k with that argument. Melee is too binary, and that's what leads to so many issues people have with the game. Either your army is really good at it, or really bad at it. This means that the good melee armies can wipe the floor with bad melee armies if they manage to get into range, which leads GW to overcompensate by making shooting armies hyperspecialized at preventing CC armies from ever getting into contact.

Tau is the only army that is "really bad at it". Everyone else ranges from "okay at it" to "dominates the entire enemy army if they even touch one of your units".

Look, I get that people want to doom and gloom all day, but people were making melee units work in 8th despite how much harsher it was on melee. 9th has given melee some good buffs through better terrain, smaller table spaces for ranged units to be deployed in, the ability to come in from the board edge so you can protect the units during early game and hit the flanks, ect.

Melee isn't dead. It's may not be point and click, but I'm planting my flag on the idea that it's got gas in the tank to be really effective.

Kdash wrote:
Biggest thing that people have been missing in todays article -

The largest challenge for the T’au Empire in the new edition is the change to the Fly keyword. It no longer offers units the ability to Fall Back and shoot, which means you need to put extra effort into screening enemy charges and preventing your critical shooting units from being engaged in combat. Thankfully, screening is about to become much more effective.

No more shooting when falling back with FLY.

The problem is that, realistically, this only hurts the suits that people are already not taking and the tanks.... people are also not taking.

A riptide DGAF.

Commanders might be effected, but commanders that get hit in combat tend to be because they were launched as a missile into the enemy's backfield, and they were dead anyways.

So since fly units can't shoot after the fall back, it seems sending flyers off the board after they get tagged in melee might be a good tactic since they can't shoot anyways.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Gotta love the fact that Tau just flt ignore the overwatch limitations the second it got implemented

It's not like they were going to suddenly not suck in melee without a massive faction redesign, so this was inevitable.

Come on, Zion. You're just highlighting one of the major flaws of 40k with that argument. Melee is too binary, and that's what leads to so many issues people have with the game. Either your army is really good at it, or really bad at it. This means that the good melee armies can wipe the floor with bad melee armies if they manage to get into range, which leads GW to overcompensate by making shooting armies hyperspecialized at preventing CC armies from ever getting into contact.

Tau is the only army that is "really bad at it". Everyone else ranges from "okay at it" to "dominates the entire enemy army if they even touch one of your units".

Look, I get that people want to doom and gloom all day, but people were making melee units work in 8th despite how much harsher it was on melee. 9th has given melee some good buffs through better terrain, smaller table spaces for ranged units to be deployed in, the ability to come in from the board edge so you can protect the units during early game and hit the flanks, ect.

Melee isn't dead. It's may not be point and click, but I'm planting my flag on the idea that it's got gas in the tank to be really effective.

9th isn't less harsh, and 8th wasn't actually harsh. Melee was a very strong tool. People are down on it cause there are a lot of bad melee units and its harder to make a melee unit good than a shooting one. Shooting units just need a gun. Melee need muscle and delivery, and usually more defenses to work. But for the units that do, they are an extremely solid, and, at times, dominating, tool.

Except against tau, where you might as well not bother.

Kdash wrote:
Biggest thing that people have been missing in todays article -

The largest challenge for the T’au Empire in the new edition is the change to the Fly keyword. It no longer offers units the ability to Fall Back and shoot, which means you need to put extra effort into screening enemy charges and preventing your critical shooting units from being engaged in combat. Thankfully, screening is about to become much more effective.

No more shooting when falling back with FLY.

This ones pretty big! Bring back tanks!

stratigo wrote:

Kdash wrote:
Biggest thing that people have been missing in todays article -

The largest challenge for the T’au Empire in the new edition is the change to the Fly keyword. It no longer offers units the ability to Fall Back and shoot, which means you need to put extra effort into screening enemy charges and preventing your critical shooting units from being engaged in combat. Thankfully, screening is about to become much more effective.

No more shooting when falling back with FLY.

The problem is that, realistically, this only hurts the suits that people are already not taking and the tanks.... people are also not taking.

A riptide DGAF.

Commanders might be effected, but commanders that get hit in combat tend to be because they were launched as a missile into the enemy's backfield, and they were dead anyways.

I mean, unless the riptide cares about having its target dictated (here, shoot my Trukk, Riptide!) and about having 5+ to hit.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
And now he's an old geezer running around with a power klaw chasing after a wacky Ork Warboss and his Waagh!...he's not really "embodying" anything other than an old guy trying to keep others from having fun.

He's been Ghaz's tactical whetstone at least. I mean he can't fight Ghaz physically, but tactically he's pushed Ghaz and contributed to making the Beast of Armageddon even more dangerous for everyone else.

Ghaz best him and decided not to kill him because he enjoyed fighting him... that’s isn’t exactly mean he’s ghaz tactical whetstone..

stratigo wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Gotta love the fact that Tau just flt ignore the overwatch limitations the second it got implemented

It's not like they were going to suddenly not suck in melee without a massive faction redesign, so this was inevitable.

Come on, Zion. You're just highlighting one of the major flaws of 40k with that argument. Melee is too binary, and that's what leads to so many issues people have with the game. Either your army is really good at it, or really bad at it. This means that the good melee armies can wipe the floor with bad melee armies if they manage to get into range, which leads GW to overcompensate by making shooting armies hyperspecialized at preventing CC armies from ever getting into contact.

Tau is the only army that is "really bad at it". Everyone else ranges from "okay at it" to "dominates the entire enemy army if they even touch one of your units".

Look, I get that people want to doom and gloom all day, but people were making melee units work in 8th despite how much harsher it was on melee. 9th has given melee some good buffs through better terrain, smaller table spaces for ranged units to be deployed in, the ability to come in from the board edge so you can protect the units during early game and hit the flanks, ect.

Melee isn't dead. It's may not be point and click, but I'm planting my flag on the idea that it's got gas in the tank to be really effective.

9th isn't less harsh, and 8th wasn't actually harsh. Melee was a very strong tool. People are down on it cause there are a lot of bad melee units and its harder to make a melee unit good than a shooting one. Shooting units just need a gun. Melee need muscle and delivery, and usually more defenses to work. But for the units that do, they are an extremely solid, and, at times, dominating, tool.

Except against tau, where you might as well not bother.

So what it sounds like your saying is that people want point and click options, and when they don't have those they're "bad".

And Marines have at least a few ways to mess with Overwatch, so I could see them having some gas to deal with Tau.

Here's to hoping GW finally fixed that drone mess though. With all the complaining they can't think that this is a better option than just letting units take a couple drones as wargear and doing it that way.

It actually affects the Riptide depending on the gun, because I'm pretty sure the Ion accelerator is going to be blast so it doesn't gets to fire in melee and even the burst cannon is going to be firing at -1 and only at whatever tied it in melee.

gungo wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
And now he's an old geezer running around with a power klaw chasing after a wacky Ork Warboss and his Waagh!...he's not really "embodying" anything other than an old guy trying to keep others from having fun.

He's been Ghaz's tactical whetstone at least. I mean he can't fight Ghaz physically, but tactically he's pushed Ghaz and contributed to making the Beast of Armageddon even more dangerous for everyone else.

Ghaz best him and decided not to kill him because he enjoyed fighting him... that’s isn’t exactly mean he’s ghaz tactical whetstone..

Ghaz lost to him once, then came back sharper and beat him (only to get countered with massed Astartes).

 slave.entity wrote:

Kdash wrote:
Biggest thing that people have been missing in todays article -

The largest challenge for the T’au Empire in the new edition is the change to the Fly keyword. It no longer offers units the ability to Fall Back and shoot, which means you need to put extra effort into screening enemy charges and preventing your critical shooting units from being engaged in combat. Thankfully, screening is about to become much more effective.

No more shooting when falling back with FLY.

This ones pretty big! Bring back tanks!

Tanks don't care as they can shoot in melee, so better stay in CC and shoot something than fall back

The cap of -1 to hit is stupid. You have no point in not bringing Heavy weapons.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

gungo wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
And now he's an old geezer running around with a power klaw chasing after a wacky Ork Warboss and his Waagh!...he's not really "embodying" anything other than an old guy trying to keep others from having fun.

He's been Ghaz's tactical whetstone at least. I mean he can't fight Ghaz physically, but tactically he's pushed Ghaz and contributed to making the Beast of Armageddon even more dangerous for everyone else.

Ghaz best him and decided not to kill him because he enjoyed fighting him... that’s isn’t exactly mean he’s ghaz tactical whetstone..

Ghaz lost to him once, then came back sharper and beat him (only to get countered with massed Astartes).

He didn’t quite lose to him.. it was just an endless grind that was no longer fun...
Then second time beat him, let him live and a bunch of Astartes ruined his fun.
Orks like to kick but and win they get bored quickly when the fighting slows down even if they could tactically win by dragging out the fight.
In each case of armeggedon ghaz was like I’m done here. Left some peon warboss to continue the battle and ghaz went looking for more boys.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The cap of -1 to hit is stupid. You have no point in not bringing Heavy weapons.

There are always exceptions... I can’t beleive they will allow heavy weapons to move and shoot without additional penalties.

the_scotsman wrote:

stratigo wrote:

Kdash wrote:
Biggest thing that people have been missing in todays article -

The largest challenge for the T’au Empire in the new edition is the change to the Fly keyword. It no longer offers units the ability to Fall Back and shoot, which means you need to put extra effort into screening enemy charges and preventing your critical shooting units from being engaged in combat. Thankfully, screening is about to become much more effective.

No more shooting when falling back with FLY.

The problem is that, realistically, this only hurts the suits that people are already not taking and the tanks.... people are also not taking.

A riptide DGAF.

Commanders might be effected, but commanders that get hit in combat tend to be because they were launched as a missile into the enemy's backfield, and they were dead anyways.

I mean, unless the riptide cares about having its target dictated (here, shoot my Trukk, Riptide!) and about having 5+ to hit.

How the heck are you getting a truk into a riptide? Let's be realistic here man.

 kodos wrote:

 slave.entity wrote:

Kdash wrote:
Biggest thing that people have been missing in todays article -

The largest challenge for the T’au Empire in the new edition is the change to the Fly keyword. It no longer offers units the ability to Fall Back and shoot, which means you need to put extra effort into screening enemy charges and preventing your critical shooting units from being engaged in combat. Thankfully, screening is about to become much more effective.

No more shooting when falling back with FLY.

This ones pretty big! Bring back tanks!

Tanks don't care as they can shoot in melee, so better stay in CC and shoot something than fall back

I mean REAL tanks, you know, the ones with treads. Now we might actually have a reason to take non-FLY tanks.

gungo wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

gungo wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
And now he's an old geezer running around with a power klaw chasing after a wacky Ork Warboss and his Waagh!...he's not really "embodying" anything other than an old guy trying to keep others from having fun.

He's been Ghaz's tactical whetstone at least. I mean he can't fight Ghaz physically, but tactically he's pushed Ghaz and contributed to making the Beast of Armageddon even more dangerous for everyone else.

Ghaz best him and decided not to kill him because he enjoyed fighting him... that’s isn’t exactly mean he’s ghaz tactical whetstone..

Ghaz lost to him once, then came back sharper and beat him (only to get countered with massed Astartes).

He didn’t quite lose to him.. it was just an endless grind that was no longer fun...
Then second time beat him, let him live and a bunch of Astartes ruined his fun.
Orks like to kick but and win they get bored quickly when the fighting slows down even if they could tactically win by dragging out the fight.
In each case of armeggedon ghaz was like I’m done here. Left some peon warboss to continue the battle and ghaz went looking for more boys.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The cap of -1 to hit is stupid. You have no point in not bringing Heavy weapons.

There are always exceptions... I can’t beleive they will allow heavy weapons to move and shoot without additional penalties.

T..they already said infantry take a -1 to hit when moving and shooting with heavy weapons.

What more do you want?

 ClockworkZion wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:


If anything this kills the idea of MSU melee units in TAC lists as you need to be able to weather Overwatch. Additionally, it means Overwatch denial options are still very important as well.

No, it promotes the opposite. The way you beat FTGG if you don't have overwatch suppression is to use a MSU unit to force them to waste FTGG to wipe it, then charge with a second unit that can't be overwatched except by the primary thing you're charging. It is essentially impossible to "weather" FTGG; whatever you charge with first is going to die, unless they make the cardinal mistake of splitting fire and don't commit enough units to wipe the first charger.

You throw things in that can survive being shot at, like a tank, and use things to turn off the primary unit's overwatch (Suppressors, strats, ect) so even if they break your transport, you can walk in unshootable anyways.

Look, I'm not trying to be mean here...but have you actually played games against competitive T'au lists? Because this just doesn't work.

First of all, nobody takes suppressors, but even if they did, you can't turn off overwatch with them, because they have to destroy a model to do it, and there is no way you are ever going to destroy a model in any T'au unit that matters with drone shields taking the wounds on a 2+. The only thing this could possibly apply to is a crisis suit unit, but again, this just isn't going to work unless by some miracle you've already plinked off most of one suit's wounds and you get really lucky with one of your shots and plink off the last 2 wounds because they rolled a 1 on the saviour protocols roll.

If you charge in with a transport, they just don't shoot FTGG at it. Why on earth would they? All it'll be charging is a drone screen, and they don't care if your transport gets into contact with a drone screen; in fact, they want it to, since it takes up space that could be filled by your real melee. You do realize the can still FTGG even if you only declare a charge on a unit that's already in combat, right?

The only way to charge a T'au castle is with a unit that cannot be overwatched at. And even that will be mostly useless in 9th, thanks to the multi-charge nerf. In the past you could declare against the drones and the units being shielded behind, wipe the drones, then fight again against the primary target. In 9th, you can't do that. So you can charge their drones and wipe them...and then be unable to fight the real units you wanted to get to, so you just get blasted off the board on their turn.

yukishiro1 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:


If anything this kills the idea of MSU melee units in TAC lists as you need to be able to weather Overwatch. Additionally, it means Overwatch denial options are still very important as well.

No, it promotes the opposite. The way you beat FTGG if you don't have overwatch suppression is to use a MSU unit to force them to waste FTGG to wipe it, then charge with a second unit that can't be overwatched except by the primary thing you're charging. It is essentially impossible to "weather" FTGG; whatever you charge with first is going to die, unless they make the cardinal mistake of splitting fire and don't commit enough units to wipe the first charger.

You throw things in that can survive being shot at, like a tank, and use things to turn off the primary unit's overwatch (Suppressors, strats, ect) so even if they break your transport, you can walk in unshootable anyways.

Look, I'm not trying to be mean here...but have you actually played games against competitive T'au lists? Because this just doesn't work.

First of all, nobody takes suppressors, but even if they did, you can't turn off overwatch with them, because they have to destroy a model to do it, and there is no way you are ever going to destroy a model in any T'au unit that matters with drone shields taking the wounds on a 2+. The only thing this could possibly apply to is a crisis suit unit, but again, this just isn't going to work unless by some miracle you've already plinked off most of one suit's wounds and you get really lucky with one of your shots and plink off the last 2 wounds because they rolled a 1 on the saviour protocols roll.

If you charge in with a transport, they just don't shoot FTGG at it. Why on earth would they? All it'll be charging is a drone screen, and they don't care if your transport gets into contact with a drone screen; in fact, they want it to, since it takes up space that could be filled by your real melee. You do realize the can still FTGG even if you only declare a charge on a unit that's already in combat, right?

I haven't played a competetive Tau list like you described because not everyone plays against competetive boogeymen and builds to counter threats only seen at GT level tournaments.

 Nah Man Pichu wrote:

gungo wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

gungo wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
And now he's an old geezer running around with a power klaw chasing after a wacky Ork Warboss and his Waagh!...he's not really "embodying" anything other than an old guy trying to keep others from having fun.

He's been Ghaz's tactical whetstone at least. I mean he can't fight Ghaz physically, but tactically he's pushed Ghaz and contributed to making the Beast of Armageddon even more dangerous for everyone else.

Ghaz best him and decided not to kill him because he enjoyed fighting him... that’s isn’t exactly mean he’s ghaz tactical whetstone..

Ghaz lost to him once, then came back sharper and beat him (only to get countered with massed Astartes).

He didn’t quite lose to him.. it was just an endless grind that was no longer fun...
Then second time beat him, let him live and a bunch of Astartes ruined his fun.
Orks like to kick but and win they get bored quickly when the fighting slows down even if they could tactically win by dragging out the fight.
In each case of armeggedon ghaz was like I’m done here. Left some peon warboss to continue the battle and ghaz went looking for more boys.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The cap of -1 to hit is stupid. You have no point in not bringing Heavy weapons.

There are always exceptions... I can’t beleive they will allow heavy weapons to move and shoot without additional penalties.

T..they already said infantry take a -1 to hit when moving and shooting with heavy weapons.

What more do you want?

It doesn't stack you forgot.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:


If anything this kills the idea of MSU melee units in TAC lists as you need to be able to weather Overwatch. Additionally, it means Overwatch denial options are still very important as well.

No, it promotes the opposite. The way you beat FTGG if you don't have overwatch suppression is to use a MSU unit to force them to waste FTGG to wipe it, then charge with a second unit that can't be overwatched except by the primary thing you're charging. It is essentially impossible to "weather" FTGG; whatever you charge with first is going to die, unless they make the cardinal mistake of splitting fire and don't commit enough units to wipe the first charger.

You throw things in that can survive being shot at, like a tank, and use things to turn off the primary unit's overwatch (Suppressors, strats, ect) so even if they break your transport, you can walk in unshootable anyways.

Look, I'm not trying to be mean here...but have you actually played games against competitive T'au lists? Because this just doesn't work.

First of all, nobody takes suppressors, but even if they did, you can't turn off overwatch with them, because they have to destroy a model to do it, and there is no way you are ever going to destroy a model in any T'au unit that matters with drone shields taking the wounds on a 2+. The only thing this could possibly apply to is a crisis suit unit, but again, this just isn't going to work unless by some miracle you've already plinked off most of one suit's wounds and you get really lucky with one of your shots and plink off the last 2 wounds because they rolled a 1 on the saviour protocols roll.

If you charge in with a transport, they just don't shoot FTGG at it. Why on earth would they? All it'll be charging is a drone screen, and they don't care if your transport gets into contact with a drone screen; in fact, they want it to, since it takes up space that could be filled by your real melee. You do realize the can still FTGG even if you only declare a charge on a unit that's already in combat, right?

I haven't played a competetive Tau list like you described because not everyone plays against competetive boogeymen and builds to counter threats only seen at GT level tournaments.

Ok, that's fine. Not everyone has to play competitively. But it does mean you're not really in a position to talk about what to do to to beat FTGG in a competitive T'au list. There is no answer except a unit that can't be overwatched, and in 9th, that doesn't work either.

yukishiro1 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:


If anything this kills the idea of MSU melee units in TAC lists as you need to be able to weather Overwatch. Additionally, it means Overwatch denial options are still very important as well.

No, it promotes the opposite. The way you beat FTGG if you don't have overwatch suppression is to use a MSU unit to force them to waste FTGG to wipe it, then charge with a second unit that can't be overwatched except by the primary thing you're charging. It is essentially impossible to "weather" FTGG; whatever you charge with first is going to die, unless they make the cardinal mistake of splitting fire and don't commit enough units to wipe the first charger.

You throw things in that can survive being shot at, like a tank, and use things to turn off the primary unit's overwatch (Suppressors, strats, ect) so even if they break your transport, you can walk in unshootable anyways.

Look, I'm not trying to be mean here...but have you actually played games against competitive T'au lists? Because this just doesn't work.

First of all, nobody takes suppressors, but even if they did, you can't turn off overwatch with them, because they have to destroy a model to do it, and there is no way you are ever going to destroy a model in any T'au unit that matters with drone shields taking the wounds on a 2+. The only thing this could possibly apply to is a crisis suit unit, but again, this just isn't going to work unless by some miracle you've already plinked off most of one suit's wounds and you get really lucky with one of your shots and plink off the last 2 wounds because they rolled a 1 on the saviour protocols roll.

If you charge in with a transport, they just don't shoot FTGG at it. Why on earth would they? All it'll be charging is a drone screen, and they don't care if your transport gets into contact with a drone screen; in fact, they want it to, since it takes up space that could be filled by your real melee. You do realize the can still FTGG even if you only declare a charge on a unit that's already in combat, right?

I haven't played a competetive Tau list like you described because not everyone plays against competetive boogeymen and builds to counter threats only seen at GT level tournaments.

Ok, that's fine. Not everyone has to play competitively. But it does mean you're not really in a position to talk about what to do to to beat FTGG in a competitive T'au list. There is no answer except a unit that can't be overwatched, and in 9th, that doesn't work either.

Shock and Awe allows a Black Templar unit disembarking a LRC to be unable to be Overwatched. Warp Talons Deep Striking can't be Overwatched. There are tools to negate Tau's FTGG.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And even if someone plays "competitively" doesn't mean they face the same lists that make the top tables at GTs. Let's be honest, most players can't play those lists properly anyways.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Nah Man Pichu wrote:

gungo wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

gungo wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
And now he's an old geezer running around with a power klaw chasing after a wacky Ork Warboss and his Waagh!...he's not really "embodying" anything other than an old guy trying to keep others from having fun.

He's been Ghaz's tactical whetstone at least. I mean he can't fight Ghaz physically, but tactically he's pushed Ghaz and contributed to making the Beast of Armageddon even more dangerous for everyone else.

Ghaz best him and decided not to kill him because he enjoyed fighting him... that’s isn’t exactly mean he’s ghaz tactical whetstone..

Ghaz lost to him once, then came back sharper and beat him (only to get countered with massed Astartes).

He didn’t quite lose to him.. it was just an endless grind that was no longer fun...
Then second time beat him, let him live and a bunch of Astartes ruined his fun.
Orks like to kick but and win they get bored quickly when the fighting slows down even if they could tactically win by dragging out the fight.
In each case of armeggedon ghaz was like I’m done here. Left some peon warboss to continue the battle and ghaz went looking for more boys.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The cap of -1 to hit is stupid. You have no point in not bringing Heavy weapons.

There are always exceptions... I can’t beleive they will allow heavy weapons to move and shoot without additional penalties.

T..they already said infantry take a -1 to hit when moving and shooting with heavy weapons.

What more do you want?

It doesn't stack you forgot.

I didn't I just don't see the issue. People *loathed* invisibility in 6th/7th, and in 8th you could put together a decent number of stacking modifiers to basically replicate it. Now that they're capping it you're upset too?

Wow, for 1CP and a 300+ point unit I can deny Overwatch!
Also Warp Talons don't make a charge from Deep Strike unless you're running that Specialist Detachment, which is already 2CP to get the keyword and Warlord Trait.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nah Man Pichu wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Nah Man Pichu wrote:

gungo wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

gungo wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
And now he's an old geezer running around with a power klaw chasing after a wacky Ork Warboss and his Waagh!...he's not really "embodying" anything other than an old guy trying to keep others from having fun.

He's been Ghaz's tactical whetstone at least. I mean he can't fight Ghaz physically, but tactically he's pushed Ghaz and contributed to making the Beast of Armageddon even more dangerous for everyone else.

Ghaz best him and decided not to kill him because he enjoyed fighting him... that’s isn’t exactly mean he’s ghaz tactical whetstone..

Ghaz lost to him once, then came back sharper and beat him (only to get countered with massed Astartes).

He didn’t quite lose to him.. it was just an endless grind that was no longer fun...
Then second time beat him, let him live and a bunch of Astartes ruined his fun.
Orks like to kick but and win they get bored quickly when the fighting slows down even if they could tactically win by dragging out the fight.
In each case of armeggedon ghaz was like I’m done here. Left some peon warboss to continue the battle and ghaz went looking for more boys.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The cap of -1 to hit is stupid. You have no point in not bringing Heavy weapons.

There are always exceptions... I can’t beleive they will allow heavy weapons to move and shoot without additional penalties.

T..they already said infantry take a -1 to hit when moving and shooting with heavy weapons.

What more do you want?

It doesn't stack you forgot.

I didn't I just don't see the issue. People *loathed* invisibility in 6th/7th, and in 8th you could put together a decent number of stacking modifiers to basically replicate it. Now that they're capping it you're upset too?

People didn't like Invisibility because you could make half the army in your death star get it and that you couldn't use Templates against it, even though that's literally the perfect target.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Wow, for 1CP and a 300+ point unit I can deny Overwatch!
Also Warp Talons don't make a charge from Deep Strike unless you're running that Specialist Detachment, which is already 2CP to get the keyword and Warlord Trait.

For a guy who pirates all his GW material you sure like to act like you're really bought in and invested.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Wow, for 1CP and a 300+ point unit I can deny Overwatch!
Also Warp Talons don't make a charge from Deep Strike unless you're running that Specialist Detachment, which is already 2CP to get the keyword and Warlord Trait.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nah Man Pichu wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Nah Man Pichu wrote:

gungo wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

gungo wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
And now he's an old geezer running around with a power klaw chasing after a wacky Ork Warboss and his Waagh!...he's not really "embodying" anything other than an old guy trying to keep others from having fun.

He's been Ghaz's tactical whetstone at least. I mean he can't fight Ghaz physically, but tactically he's pushed Ghaz and contributed to making the Beast of Armageddon even more dangerous for everyone else.

Ghaz best him and decided not to kill him because he enjoyed fighting him... that’s isn’t exactly mean he’s ghaz tactical whetstone..

Ghaz lost to him once, then came back sharper and beat him (only to get countered with massed Astartes).

He didn’t quite lose to him.. it was just an endless grind that was no longer fun...
Then second time beat him, let him live and a bunch of Astartes ruined his fun.
Orks like to kick but and win they get bored quickly when the fighting slows down even if they could tactically win by dragging out the fight.
In each case of armeggedon ghaz was like I’m done here. Left some peon warboss to continue the battle and ghaz went looking for more boys.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The cap of -1 to hit is stupid. You have no point in not bringing Heavy weapons.

There are always exceptions... I can’t beleive they will allow heavy weapons to move and shoot without additional penalties.

T..they already said infantry take a -1 to hit when moving and shooting with heavy weapons.

What more do you want?

It doesn't stack you forgot.

I didn't I just don't see the issue. People *loathed* invisibility in 6th/7th, and in 8th you could put together a decent number of stacking modifiers to basically replicate it. Now that they're capping it you're upset too?

People didn't like Invisibility because you could make half the army in your death star get it and that you couldn't use Templates against it, even though that's literally the perfect target.

Doesn't sound that different from what they were doing in 8th.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The cap of -1 to hit is stupid. You have no point in not bringing Heavy weapons.

The problem is, in a D6 system where nothing hits on a 1+, only very few things hit on a 2+, and many of those most shooting centric armies are built around a 4+, and with generally almost no positive to-hiit modifiers in the game (for things like range, stabilization, large targets, spotting/guidance, etc), once you start stacking modifiers in there, it becomes trivial to shut down far too many armies and units and turn it into a game of fishing for 6's or being unable to do anything at all. Even a -1 to hit penalty can be enough to seriously defang many shooting armies in the current edition, a -2 is enough to make many simply non-functional and something some competitive builds already operate on as an "I-win" mechanic, while a -3 would make many literally incapable of acting entirely. GW's design space with such modifiers is extremely limited.

If the game were something more like "basic guardsmen hits on a 3+, shooting at an obscured tank behind cover with a lascannon at 19" and while moving, suffers -4 to hit from target being obscured behind cover and moving, but gets +1 for large target and another +1 for under half range, and so hits on a 5+", we'd have more space to work with and make such things useful. As we broadly don't have such modifiers however, capping modifiers at -1 is really the only way to keep from totally neutering many armies.

 Nah Man Pichu wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Wow, for 1CP and a 300+ point unit I can deny Overwatch!
Also Warp Talons don't make a charge from Deep Strike unless you're running that Specialist Detachment, which is already 2CP to get the keyword and Warlord Trait.

For a guy who pirates all his GW material you sure like to act like you're really bought in and invested.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Wow, for 1CP and a 300+ point unit I can deny Overwatch!
Also Warp Talons don't make a charge from Deep Strike unless you're running that Specialist Detachment, which is already 2CP to get the keyword and Warlord Trait.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nah Man Pichu wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Nah Man Pichu wrote:

gungo wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

gungo wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
And now he's an old geezer running around with a power klaw chasing after a wacky Ork Warboss and his Waagh!...he's not really "embodying" anything other than an old guy trying to keep others from having fun.

He's been Ghaz's tactical whetstone at least. I mean he can't fight Ghaz physically, but tactically he's pushed Ghaz and contributed to making the Beast of Armageddon even more dangerous for everyone else.

Ghaz best him and decided not to kill him because he enjoyed fighting him... that’s isn’t exactly mean he’s ghaz tactical whetstone..

Ghaz lost to him once, then came back sharper and beat him (only to get countered with massed Astartes).

He didn’t quite lose to him.. it was just an endless grind that was no longer fun...
Then second time beat him, let him live and a bunch of Astartes ruined his fun.
Orks like to kick but and win they get bored quickly when the fighting slows down even if they could tactically win by dragging out the fight.
In each case of armeggedon ghaz was like I’m done here. Left some peon warboss to continue the battle and ghaz went looking for more boys.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The cap of -1 to hit is stupid. You have no point in not bringing Heavy weapons.

There are always exceptions... I can’t beleive they will allow heavy weapons to move and shoot without additional penalties.

T..they already said infantry take a -1 to hit when moving and shooting with heavy weapons.

What more do you want?

It doesn't stack you forgot.

I didn't I just don't see the issue. People *loathed* invisibility in 6th/7th, and in 8th you could put together a decent number of stacking modifiers to basically replicate it. Now that they're capping it you're upset too?

People didn't like Invisibility because you could make half the army in your death star get it and that you couldn't use Templates against it, even though that's literally the perfect target.

Doesn't sound that different from what they were doing in 8th.

You mean 2-3 Eldar fliers that would be hard to hit? LOLk


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also not sure what your first post has to do with anything. Either my argument is valid or it's not.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Shock and Awe allows a Black Templar unit disembarking a LRC to be unable to be Overwatched. Warp Talons Deep Striking can't be Overwatched. There are tools to negate Tau's FTGG.

There are multiple ways to make units ignore overwatch. Those are bad example because those aren't competitive, but there are ways to do it.

The issue is that in 9th that doesn't get you anywhere, because of the multi-charge nerf. All you can do in 9th is charge the screen; your charge automatically fails if you declare against the unit behind it too because there's no way to get within 1". So you can charge the drone screen...but can't get to what's behind it to fight twice, because you didn't declare against it.

So 9th took away the sole way that you could actually charge a T'au castle.