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Those secondaries seem super unbalanced compared to the ITC ones. The reaper clone can only be maxed against someone with 150+ models. But you get 15 points from killing 5 11W vehicles, or from killing 2 knights.

Meanwhile to max recon you have to have a unit wholly in each board quarter every single turn of the game.

4 points a round for kill more, but first strike is capped at 8 points, and slay the warlord is capped at 6.

So weird.

Will update as more people post, but I think this summarizes a lot of what we didn't know. Didn't include things that were previewed by GW themselves:

Reinforcements can come in after T3. Strategic Reserves always come in on a board edge. Which one depends on if it's T2 or T3. Reinforcements are not the same thing as Reserves. Not all reinforcement are reserves, but all reserves are reinforcements.

Melee units can only fight if they are within Engagement Range or within 1/2" of a friendly model that, is itself, within 1/2" of an enemy model (isn't that the same thing?)

You must maintain coherency after a Pile-In.

Attack Sequence change in that you must continue to allocate attacks to the same model until it is dead. No spreading around allocation of wounds to different models.

To Hit and To Wound are both capped at -1/+1

Insane Bravery is once PER BATTLE

Command Re-roll is the entire test, not just one dice.

Units can target other units that heroically intervened this turn.

All specialist detachments (Spearhead, Vanguard, Outrider) cost 3CP. There doesn't appear to be an Airwing Detachment.

Aircraft cannot be move-blocked. If they cannot move, they enter reserve.

There are rules for objective markers.

Mission points are 45 for Primary, 45 for Secondary and 10 for having your army painted for 100 pts. per mission.

You can fall back into a transport.

Weapons are based on unit movement, not model movement.

Storm Shields now are 4++ and +1 to the model's Sv characteristic.

Plasma kills on an UNMODIFIED 1.

Deny the Witch doesn't appear to have a range.

 sinthes wrote:
Has anybody found a reference to the rule of 3 in the rule book ? Me and my friend haven't seen it so it looks like it's unrestrained armys once again.

It’s in there, including reference to how it applies to GSC and the various daemon princes.

Fallback hasn't changed.

You can still target the tip of a spike even if the entire rest of a minis is completely behind a flat wall.

This is such bull gak...

 puma713 wrote:
Will update as more people post, but I think this summarizes a lot of what we didn't know. Didn't include things that were previewed by GW themselves:

Reinforcements can come in after T3. Strategic Reserves always come in on a board edge. Which one depends on if it's T2 or T3. Reinforcements are not the same thing as Reserves. Not all reinforcement are reserves, but all reserves are reinforcements.

Melee units can only fight if they are within Engagement Range or within 1/2" of a friendly model that, is itself, within 1/2" of an enemy model (isn't that the same thing?)

You must maintain coherency after a Pile-In.

Attack Sequence change in that you must continue to allocate attacks to the same model until it is dead. No spreading around allocation of wounds to different models.

To Hit and To Wound are both capped at -1/+1

Insane Bravery is once PER BATTLE

Command Re-roll is the entire test, not just one dice.

Units can target other units that heroically intervened this turn.

All specialist detachments (Spearhead, Vanguard, Outrider) cost 3CP. There doesn't appear to be an Airwing Detachment.

Aircraft cannot be move-blocked. If they cannot move, they enter reserve.

There are rules for objective markers.

Mission points are 45 for Primary, 45 for Secondary and 10 for having your army painted for 100 pts. per mission.

You can fall back into a transport.

The matched play (or is it tournament?) mission leaks have reinforcements/strategic reserves destroyed if they don’t enter by battle round 3, unless they leave the table during the game (eg flyers)

yukishiro1 wrote:
Those secondaries seem super unbalanced compared to the ITC ones. The reaper clone can only be maxed against someone with 150+ models. But you get 15 points from killing 5 11W vehicles, or from killing 2 knights.

Meanwhile to max recon you have to have a unit wholly in each board quarter every single turn of the game.

4 points a round for kill more, but first strike is capped at 8 points, and slay the warlord is capped at 6.

So weird.

Hmm? 10 points for W10+ models. Need to score 150 total.

The others I can only imagine are for some weird situation that they're the most achievable option. I can't think of those scenarios so, *shrug*.

Recon is an easy lazy score for 10. 15 would be really hard.

Yeah, for reaper, you get 10 points for a 10W+ model. So it could be 100 1W infantry + 5 tanks. Still going to be a pretty rare list where you can max it, since it's 1 point per model (10 for 10W+), not 1 point per wound.

These secondaries are just...bad. Why didn't they just use the ITC ones if this is the best they could come up with? They're not perfect, but they're much better balanced than these.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Yeah, for reaper, you get 10 points for a 10W+ model. So it could be 100 1W infantry + 5 tanks. Still going to be a pretty rare list where you can max it, since it's 1 point per model (10 for 10W+), not 1 point per wound.

These secondaries are just...bad. Why didn't they just use the ITC ones if this is the best they could come up with? They're much better balanced than these.

Really it looks like someone Baised the out of the secondrys to make certain amies and builds auto give them away will other's will be impossible to maximise score against.

If my Guard army takes a Baneblade it doesn't gain the benefits of the Regiment I have. I have to take 3 superheavies (minimum) to have them share my Regiment.

Was it this way in 8th?

Aash wrote:

 puma713 wrote:

Spoiler:

Will update as more people post, but I think this summarizes a lot of what we didn't know. Didn't include things that were previewed by GW themselves:

Reinforcements can come in after T3. Strategic Reserves always come in on a board edge. Which one depends on if it's T2 or T3. Reinforcements are not the same thing as Reserves. Not all reinforcement are reserves, but all reserves are reinforcements.

Melee units can only fight if they are within Engagement Range or within 1/2" of a friendly model that, is itself, within 1/2" of an enemy model (isn't that the same thing?)

You must maintain coherency after a Pile-In.

Attack Sequence change in that you must continue to allocate attacks to the same model until it is dead. No spreading around allocation of wounds to different models.

To Hit and To Wound are both capped at -1/+1

Insane Bravery is once PER BATTLE

Command Re-roll is the entire test, not just one dice.

Units can target other units that heroically intervened this turn.

All specialist detachments (Spearhead, Vanguard, Outrider) cost 3CP. There doesn't appear to be an Airwing Detachment.

Aircraft cannot be move-blocked. If they cannot move, they enter reserve.

There are rules for objective markers.

Mission points are 45 for Primary, 45 for Secondary and 10 for having your army painted for 100 pts. per mission.

You can fall back into a transport.

The matched play (or is it tournament?) mission leaks have reinforcements/strategic reserves destroyed if they don’t enter by battle round 3, unless they leave the table during the game (eg flyers)

Gotcha, thanks!

Can you score victory points from models that are destroyed during the Morale phase?

Also, do we revert back to understrength units not requiring an Auxiliary Detachment?
Edit: Nevermind, detachments do say whether they can include understrength units or not, good.

If you guys have skipped the crusade stuff dont, its pretty good!
https://imgur.com/a/HkV9euC

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
If my Guard army takes a Baneblade it doesn't gain the benefits of the Regiment I have. I have to take 3 superheavies (minimum) to have them share my Regiment.

Was it this way in 8th?

Yep. Superheavy Auxiliaries don't gain Regimental Doctrines. You could also take them in Supreme Command and get Regimental Doctrines, however.

Ice_can wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Yeah, for reaper, you get 10 points for a 10W+ model. So it could be 100 1W infantry + 5 tanks. Still going to be a pretty rare list where you can max it, since it's 1 point per model (10 for 10W+), not 1 point per wound.

These secondaries are just...bad. Why didn't they just use the ITC ones if this is the best they could come up with? They're much better balanced than these.

Really it looks like someone Baised the out of the secondrys to make certain amies and builds auto give them away will other's will be impossible to maximise score against.

They do seem extremely gameable, in addition to just being weird and unbalanced generally. No matter what angle I look at them from, they look like a bit of a hot mess.

Weapons are once again based on unit movement, not model movement. So if one guy moves in your squad, all heavy weapons are -1 to hit, even if they stayed stationary.

Storm Shields now are 4++ and +1 to the model's Sv characteristic.

 Latro_ wrote:
If you guys have skipped the crusade stuff dont, its pretty good!
https://imgur.com/a/HkV9euC

There's some gems in there like Daemon Princes, Hive Tyrants, and Tank Commanders not having access to the Characters table.

I think To Wound also being capped at -1/+1 is a bigger deal than it's being given credit for. It adds protection for those tougher units that were getting slaughtered by buffed-up units. While you can still increase strength, adding To Wound modifiers has helped units deal with monsters/titans in the past.

Stacking more than +1 to wound was pretty rare anyhow, though.

If they really wanted to reduce lethality/overly though units,and I'm just spit-balling here, maybe it would have been better to cap offensive/defensive modifiers to 1 each, EG you can have -1 to hit but then no more +1 T too, or you get +1 to wound but then no more rerolls to hit.

9th is set up in most ways to be deadlier than 8th (certainly deadlier than ITC 8th). The change to modifiers was designed primarily to nerf -to hit - again, a change to make the game deadlier.

If they had wanted to tackle deadliness, rerolls would have been the first port of call. But they left those completely intact.

You know, now that I read the Fight phase more carefully, I DON'T think chargers go before everyone. They just go before everyone in YOUR army. So, if you have a mix of units in melee and a units that charged, your units that charged go first in YOUR activation.

Look at the rules for the Fight Phase:

Games Workshop wrote:
Fight Phase

Starting with the player whose turn is not taking place, the players must alternate selecting an eligible unit from their army and fighting with it. An eligible unit is one that is within Engagement Range of an enemy unit and/or made a charge move in the same turn."

What this says to me is this:

On my turn, I charge your unit. We also have another unit locked in combat. Since it is my turn, according to the Fight Phase rules, you select an eligible unit first. Since you don't have any chargers, you select the unit that just got charged to fight. Now, it's my activation and I must select my chargers because they go before other units. Once I do that, then we resolve the other combat. If not, then why include the above language at all?

yukishiro1 wrote:
Stacking more than +1 to wound was pretty rare anyhow, though.

Except for the Death Guard. This is a pretty heavy nerf to them.

 puma713 wrote:
You know, now that I read the Fight phase more carefully, I DON'T think chargers go before everyone. They just go before everyone in YOUR army. So, if you have a mix of units in melee and a units that charged, your units that charged go first in YOUR activation.

Look at the rules for the Fight Phase:

Games Workshop wrote:
Fight Phase

Starting with the player whose turn is not taking place, the players must alternate selecting an eligible unit from their army and fighting with it. An eligible unit is one that is within Engagement Range of an enemy unit and/or made a charge move in the same turn."

What this says to me is this:

On my turn, I charge your unit. We also have another unit locked in combat. Since it is my turn, according to the Fight Phase rules, you select an eligible unit first. Since you don't have any chargers, you select the unit that just got charged to fight. Now, it's my activation and I must select my chargers because they go before other units. Once I do that, then we resolve the other combat. If not, then why include the above language at all?

Chargers still fight first. What the change means is that whoever charged doesn't also get to activate a non-charger right after their chargers. It'll go Friendly Chargers > Enemy "Fight First" > If still chargers/fight first left, goto 10 > Enemy Non-Charger > Friendly Non-Charger > if units left to fight, goto 40

The 1/2 inch with 1/2 inch rule allows models on 50 or bigger bases fight without having to get within an inch of the enemy now. It allows for things like a squad of 6 60mm bases to both maintain coherency with each other and still have the back rank fight.

 puma713 wrote:
You know, now that I read the Fight phase more carefully, I DON'T think chargers go before everyone. They just go before everyone in YOUR army. So, if you have a mix of units in melee and a units that charged, your units that charged go first in YOUR activation.

Look at the rules for the Fight Phase:

Games Workshop wrote:
Fight Phase

Starting with the player whose turn is not taking place, the players must alternate selecting an eligible unit from their army and fighting with it. An eligible unit is one that is within Engagement Range of an enemy unit and/or made a charge move in the same turn."

What this says to me is this:

On my turn, I charge your unit. We also have another unit locked in combat. Since it is my turn, according to the Fight Phase rules, you select an eligible unit first. Since you don't have any chargers, you select the unit that just got charged to fight. Now, it's my activation and I must select my chargers because they go before other units. Once I do that, then we resolve the other combat. If not, then why include the above language at all?

You're missing a page (they're out of order in the leak). Another one starts with 'Charging Units Fight First' (in all caps, because all subsections are all caps),as far as I can tell, in the book it is the next page after the one you're quoting.

The bullet point for this section is simply:
units that made a charge move this turn fight before all other units

There is a lot of this in the rules, to be honest.
they present the general rule, then present exceptions.
Its... fine as a format, but the piecemeal approach leads to people getting confused about how things work when they haven't read the next relevant section. (Aircraft in particular are very much the posterboys for this)

mightymconeshot wrote:
The 1/2 inch with 1/2 inch rule allows models on 50 or bigger bases fight without having to get within an inch of the enemy now. It allows for things like a squad of 6 60mm bases to both maintain coherency with each other and still have the back rank fight.

That was already true. The rule is the same as it used to be, except nerfed to 1/2" and 1/2" instead of 1" and 1".

Assault Terminators are about to take a bit of a hit. I wonder how much they went up.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 puma713 wrote:

Spoiler:

You know, now that I read the Fight phase more carefully, I DON'T think chargers go before everyone. They just go before everyone in YOUR army. So, if you have a mix of units in melee and a units that charged, your units that charged go first in YOUR activation.

Look at the rules for the Fight Phase:

Games Workshop wrote:
Fight Phase

Starting with the player whose turn is not taking place, the players must alternate selecting an eligible unit from their army and fighting with it. An eligible unit is one that is within Engagement Range of an enemy unit and/or made a charge move in the same turn."

What this says to me is this:

On my turn, I charge your unit. We also have another unit locked in combat. Since it is my turn, according to the Fight Phase rules, you select an eligible unit first. Since you don't have any chargers, you select the unit that just got charged to fight. Now, it's my activation and I must select my chargers because they go before other units. Once I do that, then we resolve the other combat. If not, then why include the above language at all?

Chargers still fight first. What the change means is that whoever charged doesn't also get to activate a non-charger right after their chargers. It'll go Friendly Chargers > Enemy "Fight First" > If still chargers/fight first left, goto 10 > Enemy Non-Charger > Friendly Non-Charger > if units left to fight, goto 40

I get that, but that's not what the Fight Phase rules say. I agree with you that the intention is for chargers to go before everyone, because it alludes to that earlier in the rules, but in the Fight Phase it makes no mention of chargers going first. Even the bullet points start with "Starting with your opponent..."

"Starting with your opponent..." and your chargers going first are mutually exclusive.

Ew, measuring 1/2 inches is such an ugly rule. They're harder to see on tape measures, and for things like melee ranges and pile-ins etc I tend to favour hard plastic widgets for greater accuracy, which often only have whole inches marked.

Fortunately I randomly have a widget with a 1/2 inch end for some long-forgotten or defunct game system, so I finally get to use that. Yay?

I understand most people just hover a tape measure miles above the models and eyeball it, but I don't like doing that.

Nah, it just means start with your opponent's charging units. There are none? Ok, then move to your charging units.

It's badly written because it isn't possible there could be any of your opponent's units that charged during your turn, but it still works RAW.