40k 9th edition, : App released page 413

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**Trickstick**

Daedalus81 wrote:
1.5 marines, aggressors, eliminators, primaris - yes. Averages are also one thing. Ignoring a model that CAN wipe your whole unit of Aggressors or Eliminators is another.

If it has a long enough range that's a lot of dead Guardsmen. Now that I think about it, how does this rule interact with Look out Sir? Could it murder officers and stuff?

**Ghaz**

It's more than just the guns on the Starstele.

If you’ve got a Convergence of Dominion nearby, your Necrons needn’t worry much about Combat Attrition, as they’ll be adding 2 to their Leadership characteristic within 6″ of any Starsteles – that’s Ld 12 on average if you’re keeping count! – while your enemies will face the wrath of their transdimensional abductors.

**Trickstick**

Nvm, it says "eligible unit".

**JNAProductions**

Daedalus81 wrote:
Sasori wrote:
AduroT wrote:
The Necrons get 3d3 shots, since there are three of them shooting. Also it’s supposed to have some way to teleport your guys around, as well as being able to itself be moved via a character.

The math was just done, it's about 1 1/2 dead marines per turn from all three.

1.5 marines, aggressors, eliminators, primaris - yes. Averages are also one thing. Ignoring a model that CAN wipe your whole unit of Aggressors or Eliminators is another.

Aggressors only take...

2 shots
4/3 hits
4/9 wounds
10/27 unsaved

So you'd need all three to kill ONE Aggressor (or Eradicator) on average.

Sure, one could POTENTIALLY wipe three Gravis units. (About a fifth of a percent chance of that happening, though.) Just like a single Ork Boy with a Shoota can technically one-shot a Librarian with his gun.

**Voss**

AduroT wrote:
The Necrons get 3d3 shots, since there are three of them shooting. Also it’s supposed to have some way to teleport your guys around, as well as being able to itself be moved via a character.

Nope. The stele themselves get teleported. They don't teleport units, they 'bolster' them (+2 leadership)

They might do other things as well (its hard to say for certain with a piecemeal write-up) but the original article refers to the Stele being teleported, and this backs that up.

**Mr. Burning**

yukishiro1 wrote:
You people are forgetting the key distinction: the Hammerfall is a Space Marines unit. This makes it completely balanced.

Sorry, not everybody can be the heroes.

I'm going to play one.

Set it up
Slide over to my opponent and say:

"Now witness the power of this fully armed and operational battle station"

**Daedalus81**

JNAProductions wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
Sasori wrote:
AduroT wrote:
The Necrons get 3d3 shots, since there are three of them shooting. Also it’s supposed to have some way to teleport your guys around, as well as being able to itself be moved via a character.

The math was just done, it's about 1 1/2 dead marines per turn from all three.

1.5 marines, aggressors, eliminators, primaris - yes. Averages are also one thing. Ignoring a model that CAN wipe your whole unit of Aggressors or Eliminators is another.
Aggressors only take...

2 shots
4/3 hits
4/9 wounds
10/27 unsaved

So you'd need all three to kill ONE Aggressor (or Eradicator) on average.

Sure, one could POTENTIALLY wipe three Gravis units. (About a fifth of a percent chance of that happening, though.) Just like a single Ork Boy with a Shoota can technically one-shot a Librarian with his gun.

Don't make a strawman. The odds of the latter is far less certain than the odds of the former. A couple dice rolling 3+ and then 5+ and then anything but a 6 is not out of the ordinary. Math hammer is great for general assessment and terrible for squaring with small sets when you get to the table.

**Rakdarian**

ClockworkZion wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
Final Faction Focus, this time on fortifications.

That Marine vunker ia busted already.

And no Web Way Gate? GW you're slipping.

Why do you say that? the bunker looks like a more expensive deathstorm droppod

Automatically Appended Next Post:

JNAProductions wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
Final Faction Focus, this time on fortifications.
So the Necrons get a 12" Assault d3 S4 AP-3 D3 weapon...

And the Marines get either 2d6 S6 shots, or 2 S10 AP-2 Dd6 shots.
As well as firing a Heavy Bolter at literally everything in range.

Balanced!

Isnt that assuming theyre going to be the same price?

do we know the price of hammerfell bunker?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Platuan4th wrote:
Tyran wrote:
Doesn't the Deathstorm drop pod basically has the same rule?

Yes, but this has both more weapons and more weapon choices than the Deathstorm's 2 types of shots and gives you an extra CP because it's a Fortification. I also doubt this bunker will only be T6 like the Deathstorm.

I guess the Deathstorm taking up a FA slot is worth something?

Actually it doesnt cost a CP. You dont gain it

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Trickstick wrote:
Sterling191 wrote:
Tyran wrote:
Doesn't the Deathstorm drop pod basically has the same rule?

On exceptionally short range guns. The deathstorm can generally plink a cluster, this bunker is poised to shoot an entire army each turn.

I highly doubt it will have 36" range bolters.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sasori wrote:
The structure itself is what moves, it doesn't move your units around, and it requires a cryptek action to do so.

It wouldn't be shocking that they didn't give all the rules out, it could well have more.

Arent they heavy bolter arrays? Id be surprised if they decide not to give them heavy bolter stats

**Sterling191**

Trickstick wrote:

I highly doubt it will have 36" range bolters.

On a unit that's already shown to have superpowered (literally their term) missiles at full range, you expect the heavy bolter array (again, their term) not to be a souped up pair of twin linked heavy bolters? That's optimism in a Marine unit not being stupidly statted in an edition where stupidly statted Marine units are the norm, not the exception.

**Rakdarian**

Eyjio wrote:
I really hate fortifications even conceptually and that thing gives me flashbacks to the bloody skyshield nonsense of 6e. Marines are already exasperating to play against with there "but wait, there's more" approach to rules; even if it's balanced I don't want to go through every sodding turn with my opponent figuring out everything that's in range of their death bunker, the inevitable argument over which armywide rules it benefits from, etc.

Also continuing the old trend of introducing completely needless, anti-fun randomness by having D3 shots on the Necron block. The shooting's not even good against anything, even assuming BS3+ like most Necron stuff, you're maybe killing an intercessor if you're really lucky. So, xenos get nothing of worth, marines get something with a thousand shots which is strictly better than everything else. Again. Wonderful, what a tremendous amount of fun.

Newbie here, what's the problem with fortifications conceptually

Edited for language - BrookM

**AduroT**

Since were all about math, how many dead marines do we get from the frag and krak missiles?

**Daedalus81**

Sterling191 wrote:
Trickstick wrote:

I highly doubt it will have 36" range bolters.

On a unit that's already shown to have superpowered (literally their term) missiles at full range, you expect the heavy bolter array (again, their term) not to be a souped up pair of twin linked heavy bolters? That's optimism in a Marine unit not being stupidly statted in an edition where stupidly statted Marine units are the norm, not the exception.

I'll make a bet with you. It's 3 shots, 36", shoot everything in range. Then it ups to 6 in Overwatch.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

AduroT wrote:
Since were all about math, how many dead marines do we get from the frag and krak missiles?

Against Aggressors Superkraks get 0.7 wounding hits with D6 damage where the Necrons get 1.1 with flat 3. Assuming both are BS3.

**Rinion**

Of course its a special heavy bolter array, dont want to make it expensive by just giving it 120pts of heavy bolters!

**Mixzremixzd**

So how many points are we looking at for the Primaris tactical bunker nuke to not be obnoxiously overpowered?

**Daedalus81**

Mixzremixzd wrote:
So how many points are we looking at for the Primaris tactical bunker nuke to not be obnoxiously overpowered?

Depends on how many shots you think it is shooting at each target. Do you think it is putting 24 shots into each unit?

Ever notice how a Ghost Ark has 10 Gauss Flayers on it, but instead of getting 10 shots they get 5, because it's actually a 'Gauss Flayer Array'?

**Sterling191**

Daedalus81 wrote:

I'll make a bet with you. It's 3 shots, 36", shoot everything in range. Then it ups to 6 in Overwatch.

Ill make another bet with you: I don't care.

The capacity to shoot at an entire enemy army every turn, especially with the changes to leadership and objectives is an abjectly broken thing. Particularly when it inevitably benefits from auras and stratagems.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Daedalus81 wrote:

Ever notice how a Ghost Ark has 10 Gauss Flayers on it, but instead of getting 10 shots they get 5, because it's actually a 'Gauss Flayer Array'?

Ever notice how a Ghost Ark doesnt get magically increasing numbers of shots depending on how many targets are within its range?

**Trickstick**

Mixzremixzd wrote:
So how many points are we looking at for the Primaris tactical bunker nuke to not be obnoxiously overpowered?

There are way too many unknown variables to even guess. How many wounds does it have? Is it bs 3+, or 4+ to represent machine spirits firing? Does it have some special deployment or targeting rules? Etc...

**Voss**

Mixzremixzd wrote:
So how many points are we looking at for the Primaris tactical bunker nuke to not be obnoxiously overpowered?

Land Raider base for 'I can shoots everything' rule, plus a whirlwind for stealing the launcher.

Keep in mind this is something that's deployed from orbit, so you can probably just plop it down in a central location where it can shoot everything and your opponent can't blow it off the board in prior turns.

**Mixzremixzd**

Daedalus81 wrote:
Mixzremixzd wrote:
So how many points are we looking at for the Primaris tactical bunker nuke to not be obnoxiously overpowered?

Depends on how many shots you think it is shooting at each target. Do you think it is putting 24 shots into each unit?

Ever notice how a Ghost Ark has 10 Gauss Flayers on it, but instead of getting 10 shots they get 5, because it's actually a 'Gauss Flayer Array'?

A Ghost Ark has 2 Gauss Flayer arrays for a total of 10 shots....

**broxus**

Virules wrote:
If ever the community needed a hero for points leaks, that time is now. In our darkest hour, who will rise to offer hope for a light in the darkness?

Exactly this!! Where are the points leaks?? Where is the hero willing to do the right thing and share?

**Daedalus81**

Mixzremixzd wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
Mixzremixzd wrote:
So how many points are we looking at for the Primaris tactical bunker nuke to not be obnoxiously overpowered?

Depends on how many shots you think it is shooting at each target. Do you think it is putting 24 shots into each unit?

Ever notice how a Ghost Ark has 10 Gauss Flayers on it, but instead of getting 10 shots they get 5, because it's actually a 'Gauss Flayer Array'?

A Ghost Ark has 2 Gauss Flayer arrays for a total of 10 shots....

I stand corrected.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sterling191 wrote:

Ill make another bet with you: I don't care.

The capacity to shoot at an entire enemy army every turn, especially with the changes to leadership and objectives is an abjectly broken thing. Particularly when it inevitably benefits from auras and stratagems.

With what range? At what points? Is 3 HB shots really putting everything over the edge? Are you really keeping a captain back for a heavy bolter? Which stratagems? How does it deploy?

**Xenomancers**

Daedalus81 wrote:
Mixzremixzd wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
Mixzremixzd wrote:
So how many points are we looking at for the Primaris tactical bunker nuke to not be obnoxiously overpowered?

Depends on how many shots you think it is shooting at each target. Do you think it is putting 24 shots into each unit?

Ever notice how a Ghost Ark has 10 Gauss Flayers on it, but instead of getting 10 shots they get 5, because it's actually a 'Gauss Flayer Array'?

A Ghost Ark has 2 Gauss Flayer arrays for a total of 10 shots....

I stand corrected.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sterling191 wrote:

Ill make another bet with you: I don't care.

The capacity to shoot at an entire enemy army every turn, especially with the changes to leadership and objectives is an abjectly broken thing. Particularly when it inevitably benefits from auras and stratagems.

With what range? At what points? Is 3 HB shots really putting everything over the edge? Are you really keeping a captain back for a heavy bolter? Which stratagems?

This was an FAQ. RAW in the Necron codex it was 1 array that had rapid fire 5 - not 2 weapons.

**Daedalus81**

Xenomancers wrote:

This was an FAQ. RAW in the Necron codex it was 1 array that had rapid fire 5 - not 2 weapons.

Nah codex actually says 2.

**tneva82**

Daedalus81 wrote:
Mixzremixzd wrote:
So how many points are we looking at for the Primaris tactical bunker nuke to not be obnoxiously overpowered?

Depends on how many shots you think it is shooting at each target. Do you think it is putting 24 shots into each unit?

Ever notice how a Ghost Ark has 10 Gauss Flayers on it, but instead of getting 10 shots they get 5, because it's actually a 'Gauss Flayer Array'?

Umm...rapid fire 10. Rapid fire 1 per gun. 2 arrays each 5 guns(per side) each.

Lovely platform. Too bad it has warrior repair rule tax. Warriors junk so you want just ghost arks without warriors

**Mixzremixzd**

I think the thing that irks me the most is comparing the Necron fortification with the Primaris bunker, at least with what was revealed so far, the Convergence requires so much "finesse" and bending over backwards to make it even remotely useful. Short range weapons, +2 ld for an army with ld 10, only 1 Starstele teleports but you're sacrificing your Cryptek doing anything for a turn as it is an ACTION, can't cap objectives cause its a building...

Whereas the bunker SEEMINGLY looks like a haha down comes by square plastic in the middle of a smaller table to shoot your entire army with heavy bolters...every turn. No finesse, no tactics just Primaris being more straightforward and better than everyone else.

**Sterling191**

Daedalus81 wrote:

With what range? At what points? Is 3 HB shots really putting everything over the edge? Are you really keeping a captain back for a heavy bolter? Which stratagems? How does it deploy?

If you cant seem to grasp why a weapon with a 36 inch range on a deep strikeable platform that can fire at everything within range is a bad fething idea, then that's your problem. But we both knew that going into this lovely little chat.

**Manous**

The more I learn about the new "indomitus marines" (especially their special rules and point costs) and their subsequent releases the more I am tempted to boycott any games including these units.

**Trickstick**

I can see the +2 ld being really useful, if the Necrons get some crazy new pseudo-psyker thing that runs off LD. Like a cryptek power or something.

**Tyran**

The bunker is an extremely binary unit.

Against a infantry MSU army it is likely going to be amazing, against a Knight Army it is useless.

**tneva82**

Manous wrote:
The more I learn about the new "indomitus marines" (especially their special rules and point costs) and their subsequent releases the more I am tempted to boycott any games including these units.

Oh i'm already avoid games with marines mode. They are just tom broken. That or keep super anti marine list with me if i face marines