Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
I am disappointed that the army builder requires the subscription. That is the part that should be free. It would be good for the game if there was easily accessible, standardised list builder so everyone would be on the same page. Paying for the access to actual rule content would be fine.
Crimson wrote: I am disappointed that the army builder requires the subscription. That is the part that should be free. It would be good for the game if there was easily accessible, standardised list builder so everyone would be on the same page. Paying for the access to actual rule content would be fine.
Remember, Warhammer is for everyone, except for poor people.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/10 08:08:17
Crimson wrote: I am disappointed that the army builder requires the subscription. That is the part that should be free. It would be good for the game if there was easily accessible, standardised list builder so everyone would be on the same page. Paying for the access to actual rule content would be fine.
Remember, Warhammer is for everyone, except for poor people.
That's why poor people have their Jolly roger flag up xD
In my experience, the majority of players actually use PL.
Yes, I tend to concur. Most of the new players who come to our club use power level as their army construction tool.
Me and my friends use power level most of the time. It's just easier. I don't want to spend 30 mins totaling up my army list. Of course its exploitable, but that is simply a matter of having respect for your opponent - however I accept that is much easier when playing socially.
Hodge-Podge says: Run with the Devil, Shout Satan's Might. Deathtongue! Deathtongue! The Beast arises tonight!
In my experience, the majority of players actually use PL.
Yes, I tend to concur. Most of the new players who come to our club use power level as their army construction tool.
Me and my friends use power level most of the time. It's just easier. I don't want to spend 30 mins totaling up my army list. Of course its exploitable, but that is simply a matter of having respect for your opponent - however I accept that is much easier when playing socially.
I mean, that path just seems like it leads to list tailoring to me. I make a list and play it regardless of opponent, and if the list fails to perform, I change the list. I'll even have a couple so I can have a low power list (I have gotten this one wrong a few time) to play with a new person.
And I full on paper math that gak.
I dunno, I find power level pretty much worthless for a good time game, especially now. It pretty much pigeonholes me into taking utter filth or just not bothering playing because so much of the power level is so skewed. Like, I love sternguard when I played marines. I even tried making that ultramarine vigilus detachment work (it did not, I lost every game). Sternguard are absolutely rumbled by power levels, and they aren't that great in points.
I'd tell you to switch to points, it's a better system for gauging army power levels. I mean power level you may as well use AoS's old wound matching system or something.
Lord of Deeds wrote:So let me know if I have this straight;
1) Right now I buy a printed codex for $40 USD ($30 for SM supplements) 2) Right now if I want a digital version, its $34.99 for ePub or $37.99 enhanced
So to have both print and digital it’s $75 – $78 for a typical codex, of which there are 23? (Excluding the 6 SM supplements).
Spoiler:
If I want an online/automated list builder, its BattleScribe for $1.49 / yr. per* *I know it can be used for free, but they do ask for support, which I myself currently do pay for the supporter pass for both PC and iOS.
With the Warhammer 40K app
1) Digital Version of codex comes with printed version. Price not known, but I think it is safe to assume that the price of the 9th edition codices will be higher than $40, but lower than the combined $75-$78 above. – Conclusion is this will be better value than currently IF you were buying both print and digital versions. However, it is an inferior value if you were buying only one or the other.
For subscriber version since USD price not mentioned, let’s just guess $6 / month since GW always inflates the current exchange rate.
2) This is harder to compare apples to apples as it gives more than just a list builder. It provides digital versions of all 8th ed. codices, a ~$950 USD value if purchased today which will likely take more than 30 months before all are updated again assuming one codex a month vs. $180 total for the app during that same time frame – Conclusion is this is outstanding value assuming you don’t already have say more than 27 8th edition codices or supplements already. Value declines significantly if you had no interest in having say more than 5 8th edition codices or already own all the 8th edition codices you want in whatever is your preferred format.
3) If only interested in the list building feature, no contest in a straight price to price comparison with BattleScribe. But we know that BattleScribe is not perfect and caveat emptor, and is dependent on the un-paid and very committed community members who try their best to keep the data files updated. There is also typically a lag between codex release and BattleScribe being updated. One good thing about Battescribe has always been the relative ease with which lists could be shared or published across multiple media. The value that I assume the GW app will offer is, a) It’s official (don't discount this aspect), b) It will be updated the same day a codex is released, c) It will have less errors (FAQ/Errata history of GW notwithstanding), d) will hopefully be more user and mobile firendly and aligned visually with the force org system and e) have support for sharing/publishing your list. – Conclusion from a price only standpoint, this is an inferior value to what is currently available and not a good enough reason alone to subscribe to the app, however final assessment of value is highly dependent on the actual finished GW product
Obviously you don’t subscribe based on what if’s and vague promises of future improvements, but my guess of features on the short list to be added to app;
1) Match scorer 2) Dice app 3) Open War cards / Mission generator 4) Crusade journal 5) Campaign management 6) Support for other 40K games, e.g. Kill Team, Adeptus Titanicus, Aeronautica Imperialis, and may be even Necromunda?
I am looking forward to the app, and just based on the value of the digital versions of 8th edition codices will likely subscribe from day 1 and probably through whatever point that I am no longer referring to 8th edition codices are an ongoing basis.
The cost of the app is not the initial price. It's the long term lock in.
Let's say 9th edition goes 4 years and the app costs $6 a month. Paying $72 a year x 4 years = $288.
Sounds reasonable, there's some value if you get access to every Codex. Of course, that only lasts as long as GW chooses to keep the price at that level. Once you move off books, they can do whatever they want. After a few years, I expect the cost would be much higher than the cost of physical books.
Looks like a Trojan Horse for consumers.
Lord of Deeds wrote:GW is paying people to make their version and need revenue to offset that expense. Not to say that comparisons to BattleScribe are not worthwhile, but BattleScribe is not paying anyone and the 40k data files would not be free* if it wasn't for the philanthropy and dedication of a relatively few committed 40k enthusiasts.
Finally I don’t think GW is going to go after BattleScribe. There is already the precedent with Lone Wolf Development, so GW knows where they stand legally.
In terms of copyright law, anyone is free to take facts out of a book and reprint them elsewhere. That's part of why BS can exist, also it's a generic army list builder that works with multiple systems.
Extracting data out of an app can violate the DMCA. GW could start issuing take down notices to Github to pull the files, and Github would have to comply or face massive fines. Even if it's actually legal, do you think Github is going to stand up for a project that consists of a few XML files? Probably not.
I own Codexes but get everything I need out of Battlescribe. The app seems to be a way to monetize something I'm getting for free, and to make something I like illegal. Would not use it.
Aaranis wrote:Jesus Christ we just want the point costs for armies, let us play 9th Edition already, we have the core rules, the leaked missions, JUST LET US PLAAAY. I don't want to play broken 8th anymore. I'm so sick of this teasing and drawing everything at length for MONTHS. Why does it take two weeks to take preorders while it's usually one week ? Seriously half the summer will be gone and we're still with drip-fed informations we already know.
Just release a PDF already Jesus. Nobody's buying stuff except Marine and Necrons players who ordered Indomitus, the rest of us are too scared to buy boxes that will be possibly useless in two weeks. What's the point of waiting dragging everything for so long ?
Giving me time to process the changes is valuable. I'm not playing right now due to lockdowns and stores going out of business, but I hope to be ready when 9th edition is actually released.
My armies are CSM, DG, TS, Chaos Knights, Grey Knights, DW, and Guard. CSM are my favorite, feels like the new rules put them at a severe disadvantage. The new Charge rules, Morale rules and Detachment mechanics leave me feeling a little lost on what to do with my 8th edition lists.
One of my lists (Daemon Primarchs) is invalidated, there's no way to actually use it anymore.
My Black Legion gunline is mostly intact, but there's reasons it probably won't work as well in 9th. It depends on beatsticks crushing anything that gets close, the new rules around multicharge mean it's going to be a lot harder to tie up opponents while the gunline shoots. While I run Abaddon, I have to worry about Morale and unit coherency now. The new Detachment rules mean I will have to consider a Brigade or start with fewer CP.
My Death Guard list needs to be overhauled. It's mostly infantry, now it needs more MSU, armor and heavy weapons. I'm not sure how I will organize the detachments, still haven't read the PA book.
My Chaos Knights seem to have benefited from the new rules, they're going to be a little harder to charge. But I won't really know until I get some games in, my most frequent opponents are NuMarines, Orks and Dark Eldar. I don't have a good sense what's going on with those armies.
As for the TS and Imperial lists, I haven't started thinking about what the new edition means for them. All I really know is soup is off the menu, or will be served sparingly.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/10 10:08:59
In my experience, the majority of players actually use PL.
Yes, I tend to concur. Most of the new players who come to our club use power level as their army construction tool.
Me and my friends use power level most of the time. It's just easier. I don't want to spend 30 mins totaling up my army list. Of course its exploitable, but that is simply a matter of having respect for your opponent - however I accept that is much easier when playing socially.
The last time I even heard of a powerlevel game being played in our area was in the index era. We honestly forget PL is even a thing sometimes
The last time I even heard of a powerlevel game being played in our area was in the index era. We honestly forget PL is even a thing sometimes
Which again, isn't that surprising given you (by your flag at least) appear to be from the US.
It's not exactly unknown that large parts of the states have been on their own trajectory for a good chunk of 8th Edition, not using Maelstrom, not using Chapter Approved missions, not using RAW terrain rules, not using PL, not using Open War decks, etc., etc.., etc..,
Part of the reason GW brought in so many US community "names" was surely in no small part of trying to closer align the US customers again with the "rest" of the 40K community.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/10 12:35:47
The last time I even heard of a powerlevel game being played in our area was in the index era. We honestly forget PL is even a thing sometimes
Which again, isn't that surprising given you (by your flag at least) appear to be from the US.
It's not exactly unknown that large parts of the states have been on their own trajectory for a good chunk of 8th Edition, not using Maelstrom, not using Chapter Approved missions, not using RAW terrain rules, not using PL, not using Open War decks, etc., etc.., etc..,
Part of the reason GW brought in so many US community "names" was surely in no small part of trying to closer align the US customers again with the "rest" of the 40K community.
They would get a lot further in that initiative if they were to sanction tournaments and offer prize support. If they had GW-sanctioned tournaments in the states where they used everything you just mentioned, it would give the US playerbase a taste of the game using those mechanics and more tournaments would start to follow suit.
WH40K Death Guard 5100 pts.
Daemons 3000 pts.
DT:70+S++G+M-B-I--Pw40K90-D++A++/eWD?R++T(D)DM+
28 successful trades in the Dakka Swap Shop! Check out my latest auction here!
The last time I even heard of a powerlevel game being played in our area was in the index era. We honestly forget PL is even a thing sometimes
Which again, isn't that surprising given you (by your flag at least) appear to be from the US.
It's not exactly unknown that large parts of the states have been on their own trajectory for a good chunk of 8th Edition, not using Maelstrom, not using Chapter Approved missions, not using RAW terrain rules, not using PL, not using Open War decks, etc., etc.., etc..,
Part of the reason GW brought in so many US community "names" was surely in no small part of trying to closer align the US customers again with the "rest" of the 40K community.
They would get a lot further in that initiative if they were to sanction tournaments and offer prize support. If they had GW-sanctioned tournaments in the states where they used everything you just mentioned, it would give the US playerbase a taste of the game using those mechanics and more tournaments would start to follow suit.
Given the threads and polls here on dakka, I'm afraid to say you're flat wrong on this one. It was discussed, even suggested by ITC to use CA missions and the US scene dumped all over it because it was too random and didn't allow them to build a list to the missions/control how they scored.
Slipspace wrote: Huge swing and a miss for me. What's really frustrating is a truly forward-looking company would realise an app is a fantastic opportunity for customer research since GW could see all the data on army building for everyone that uses it. If they'd charged £2 a month I might have considered it but this is just a terrible deal all round. Looks like they're getting pretty solidly criticised for it on social media and other forums too, as they should.
yeah i dont get that... see which units are used and which arent, should be pretty valuable information for a company that sells minis and is trying to balance rules... It would also swing away from the tournament driven balancing. See what units people actually field.. they could prompt surveys in the app too like "why are/arent you using unit x" or god forsake a feedback option... i really don't get how such an oppurtunity gets missed... other companies would rip their leg off to get to such important data
and yes 5€ per month is pretty steep in todays app market... i really hope those quicklinks to rules and points also work if you didnt buy the codecies you're referencing... if not i really dont see any reason to get the app
They would get a lot further in that initiative if they were to sanction tournaments and offer prize support. If they had GW-sanctioned tournaments in the states where they used everything you just mentioned, it would give the US playerbase a taste of the game using those mechanics and more tournaments would start to follow suit.
Given the threads and polls here on dakka, I'm afraid to say you're flat wrong on this one. It was discussed, even suggested by ITC to use CA missions and the US scene dumped all over it because it was too random and didn't allow them to build a list to the missions/control how they scored.
Erm, that's not what I said. I didn't say ask people if they wanted to do it. I said do it. People will attend a GW event, regardless of ruleset. At said GW event, employ all of the aforementioned rules that ITC, etc. don't use. Give people a different perspective than ITC rules. Some will walk away enjoying it more.
You're right, you can't talk people into doing something different. You have to show them.
WH40K Death Guard 5100 pts.
Daemons 3000 pts.
DT:70+S++G+M-B-I--Pw40K90-D++A++/eWD?R++T(D)DM+
28 successful trades in the Dakka Swap Shop! Check out my latest auction here!
Which, if you remember, wasn't for the points, but the art.
Because art is a much easier legal case. It would have been an easy win for GW if it had gone to court.
But with BS, are they going to claim they copyrighted numbers? Even the names aren't copyrighted but trademarked, which has different protections that wouldn't truly apply here.
EDIT: And it is a much harder case because BS has never published 40k data. It isn't like a forum in which what we post is published, it isn't truly a platform but an application, pure software. If the user wants to see 40k data on it that is on the users that created and loaded that data on BS. It would be like trying to sue a media player app because you can play pirated movies on it.
This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2020/07/10 15:35:02
They would get a lot further in that initiative if they were to sanction tournaments and offer prize support. If they had GW-sanctioned tournaments in the states where they used everything you just mentioned, it would give the US playerbase a taste of the game using those mechanics and more tournaments would start to follow suit.
Given the threads and polls here on dakka, I'm afraid to say you're flat wrong on this one. It was discussed, even suggested by ITC to use CA missions and the US scene dumped all over it because it was too random and didn't allow them to build a list to the missions/control how they scored.
Erm, that's not what I said. I didn't say ask people if they wanted to do it. I said do it. People will attend a GW event, regardless of ruleset. At said GW event, employ all of the aforementioned rules that ITC, etc. don't use. Give people a different perspective than ITC rules. Some will walk away enjoying it more.
You're right, you can't talk people into doing something different. You have to show them.
From what people were sating on here, the impression is that they honestly wouldn't go to it.
Too much hassle to organize an event across the ocean.
Just invite a couple of big names from US to your playtesting group, make it look like the new missions cater to the ITC crowd and make a few accouncements in streaming. Done.
Given the threads and polls here on dakka, I'm afraid to say you're flat wrong on this one. It was discussed, even suggested by ITC to use CA missions and the US scene dumped all over it because it was too random and didn't allow them to build a list to the missions/control how they scored.
CA19 was the first real consideration. Then....pandemic.
And let's be honest. You guys weren't doing straight maelstrom that whole time.
They would get a lot further in that initiative if they were to sanction tournaments and offer prize support. If they had GW-sanctioned tournaments in the states where they used everything you just mentioned, it would give the US playerbase a taste of the game using those mechanics and more tournaments would start to follow suit.
Given the threads and polls here on dakka, I'm afraid to say you're flat wrong on this one. It was discussed, even suggested by ITC to use CA missions and the US scene dumped all over it because it was too random and didn't allow them to build a list to the missions/control how they scored.
Erm, that's not what I said. I didn't say ask people if they wanted to do it. I said do it. People will attend a GW event, regardless of ruleset. At said GW event, employ all of the aforementioned rules that ITC, etc. don't use. Give people a different perspective than ITC rules. Some will walk away enjoying it more.
You're right, you can't talk people into doing something different. You have to show them.
From what people were sating on here, the impression is that they honestly wouldn't go to it.
There are GW sanctioned GTs in the US, not many but they're there. The general consensus is that they don't matter all that much compared to adepticon, nova, and LVO. Also, GW does do prize support for a lot of the independent events.
Sidebar for pumaface, this isn't a repro health class teaching teenagers what a condom is, the US playerbase is fully aware of those mechanics and games, there are local and regional metas all over the country that don't use ITC rules at all. Michigan, for example, is almost entirely adepticon inspired rules until october when the Michigan GT happens. Having seen all of the available permutations of rulesets and missionpacks, North America has decided ITC is the most popular. It's not a question of people not knowing any other way to play, or even being forced to use ITC (as a bunch of whiners on this board would like you to believe) it's a simply the majority of people within attendence range of your event liking ITC.
People don't use powerlevel in the US because it sucks. It's broken down over time so that it's largely useless even for casual games. During Indexes and the first wave of codexes you could have perfectly fine games with PL, but too much stuff has changed since that era for any game where players are actually interested in winning to be worth playing.
Maelstrom is fine and sees actually a lot of use in local events and pick up games for creating a fast and unpredictable gaming environment. It's terrible for larger events because better players can lose hardcore to just drawing "grab the objective your opponent deployed triple plagueburst crawlers and 200 cultists on" over and over again. No one uses open war decks because every other game is over in less time than it takes to deploy. I watched two guys play 5 or 6 full open war games in like 45 minutes because they kept pulling win cons that were super easy for one guy to get.
Not for nothing, but there weren't actually RAW terrain rules in 8th. Infantry just got +1 save from the table sometimes. Honestly, the game is fine without the ITC ruins rule...but there's a reason every tournament in America was using ruins to block LoS and it's not because they all just really love Reece. Melee that didn't deepstrike was DoA without it, especially in the Ironhands era.
It's simple supply and demand. If the new GW missions and tournament packs, crusade rules, terrain rules, etc, are good enough, people will adopt them. If not, they'll stick to ITC(or whatever local meta your area uses). If PL becomes not utter gak again, people will use PL for their friendly games. As of now, even that isn't really possible.
Just called my local store an they are already out for the indomitus boxset... and it was supposed to start tomorrow ! This is going to be a nightmare like the Sister boxset.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/10 15:50:51
Given the threads and polls here on dakka, I'm afraid to say you're flat wrong on this one. It was discussed, even suggested by ITC to use CA missions and the US scene dumped all over it because it was too random and didn't allow them to build a list to the missions/control how they scored.
CA19 was the first real consideration. Then....pandemic.
And let's be honest. You guys weren't doing straight maelstrom that whole time.
We used the CA 19 maelstrom missions in a few local events (Ewar were gak, I'm sorry Ewar has ALWAYS been gak until the new book missions which I like quite a bit) and they were fun. Not sure how they translated to larger events because...yunno...pandemic, but they were great for what we did.
North America will go with whatever they like the best. That's just what NA does.
I actually love the collectors one, but the price is ludicrous.
Cant believe that this collector rule book which only has a fancier cover then the rulebook in the indomitus box set is actually $10 US more then the box set! The last few collector rule books came with art books, coins, maps posters etc at least.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/10 15:58:52
WhiteDog wrote: Just called my local store an they are already out for the indomitus boxset... and it was supposed to start tomorrow ! This is going to be a nightmare like the Sister boxset.
Same here. Any one who has ALREADY pre-ordered (pre-order pre-ordered) has their copy, but for tomorrow -- ya know, the ACTUAL preorder -- they're all out. They're not accepting any new orders.
WH40K Death Guard 5100 pts.
Daemons 3000 pts.
DT:70+S++G+M-B-I--Pw40K90-D++A++/eWD?R++T(D)DM+
28 successful trades in the Dakka Swap Shop! Check out my latest auction here!
Death Guard 5100 pts.
Daemons 3000 pts.
