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yukishiro1 wrote: I think GW is smart enough these days to know that the easier they make it for people to use the models they buy from them at a huge markup, the better. Going after BS doesn't help them sell models, and that's their core business.
Honestly, they'd probably make more money if they just released the rules - 100% of them - online for free, with the books just for people who want a hard copy. One of the biggest barriers to getting people involved in the game is "ok, you're interested in 40k? Pony up $100 for the rules before you can even play any games."
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Gadzilla666 wrote: Is it possible that the reason for the delay is that they are updating the existing codexes? Not just points but making plasma explode on natural 1s etcetera?
No. If that was the case, they would say so, to smooth things over. There is zero reason for them to abandon their release schedule with no explanation if there is a good explanation.
It's also possibly not worth all the good will they've gained back to go after BattleScribe, but I'm not one of their businesses analysts.
Speaking of, I'm pretty confident they've done market research and analysis on the benefit of making the rules free.
With the Core rules being free and available in the app, I wouldn't be surprised if you can buy the codexs for cheaper in the app, like AoS. That would reduce the cost of entry, and entice some people to start using the app subscription.
They offer that? How much cheaper are the AoS codexes in the app?
yukishiro1 wrote: I think GW is finally starting to get that the best way to stop people going outside its own ecosystem is just to, well, make it easy to stay inside. Giving the rules away free online is the logical next step on this, as the ridiculous prices charged for the rules are by far the number one reason people go to outside sources to get their material.
The app is probably the first step in this direction. Yes, they still want to sell people new $40 books if they can, but what they really want people to do is get used to the idea of paying $60 a year for the rules, and that this is a "deal," when really they ought to just be releasing rules updates for free.
Yeah, I could see GW attempting that strategy, and with how it is currently I don’t know how many it will appeal to. But if it were 60 bucks a year and I got access to every codex and supplement release I would be okay with that.
yukishiro1 wrote: I think GW is finally starting to get that the best way to stop people going outside its own ecosystem is just to, well, make it easy to stay inside. Giving the rules away free online is the logical next step on this, as the ridiculous prices charged for the rules are by far the number one reason people go to outside sources to get their material.
The app is probably the first step in this direction. Yes, they still want to sell people new $40 books if they can, but what they really want people to do is get used to the idea of paying $60 a year for the rules, and that this is a "deal," when really they ought to just be releasing rules updates for free.
Not sure this holds up. This is going in the exact opposite direction (charging people twice, and one of those on an ongoing basis). That's a far cry from heading towards free rules.
Its actually worse than Microsoft charging a 'service fee' for a year's subscription to MS Office, rather than just buying the current version forever. This is the worst of both worlds, and no amount of justification allows it to make any sort of sense at the consumer end.
Oh, I agree. But that was kinda my point. They know what way the wind is blowing in general but think they've found a smart way to turn it to their advantage and double-bill people while also locking them into their app.
Whether it works depends on how boiled the frogs are. If it works, they'll just make even more money and double down on charging people for rules. If it doesn't work, they can transition to just giving stuff away for "free" via the subscription, and still get money that way - and people will even praise them for being "generous" for doing it. It's a win/win at this point.
yukishiro1 wrote: I think GW is smart enough these days to know that the easier they make it for people to use the models they buy from them at a huge markup, the better. Going after BS doesn't help them sell models, and that's their core business.
Honestly, they'd probably make more money if they just released the rules - 100% of them - online for free, with the books just for people who want a hard copy. One of the biggest barriers to getting people involved in the game is "ok, you're interested in 40k? Pony up $100 for the rules before you can even play any games."
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Gadzilla666 wrote: Is it possible that the reason for the delay is that they are updating the existing codexes? Not just points but making plasma explode on natural 1s etcetera?
No. If that was the case, they would say so, to smooth things over. There is zero reason for them to abandon their release schedule with no explanation if there is a good explanation.
It's also possibly not worth all the good will they've gained back to go after BattleScribe, but I'm not one of their businesses analysts.
Speaking of, I'm pretty confident they've done market research and analysis on the benefit of making the rules free.
With the Core rules being free and available in the app, I wouldn't be surprised if you can buy the codexs for cheaper in the app, like AoS. That would reduce the cost of entry, and entice some people to start using the app subscription.
They offer that? How much cheaper are the AoS codexes in the app?
16 bucks a pop before tax. I think it ends up being around 18 when you account for that. I don't really even buy the hard copies for AoS anymore, since I use the app for everything.
yukishiro1 wrote: I think GW is smart enough these days to know that the easier they make it for people to use the models they buy from them at a huge markup, the better. Going after BS doesn't help them sell models, and that's their core business.
Honestly, they'd probably make more money if they just released the rules - 100% of them - online for free, with the books just for people who want a hard copy. One of the biggest barriers to getting people involved in the game is "ok, you're interested in 40k? Pony up $100 for the rules before you can even play any games."
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gadzilla666 wrote: Is it possible that the reason for the delay is that they are updating the existing codexes? Not just points but making plasma explode on natural 1s etcetera?
No. If that was the case, they would say so, to smooth things over. There is zero reason for them to abandon their release schedule with no explanation if there is a good explanation.
It's also possibly not worth all the good will they've gained back to go after BattleScribe, but I'm not one of their businesses analysts.
Speaking of, I'm pretty confident they've done market research and analysis on the benefit of making the rules free.
With the Core rules being free and available in the app, I wouldn't be surprised if you can buy the codexs for cheaper in the app, like AoS. That would reduce the cost of entry, and entice some people to start using the app subscription.
They offer that? How much cheaper are the AoS codexes in the app?
16 bucks a pop before tax. I think it ends up being around 18 when you account for that. I don't really even buy the hard copies for AoS anymore, since I use the app for everything.
Thanks for the info. If they do that it might make this worthwhile.
yukishiro1 wrote: I think GW is finally starting to get that the best way to stop people going outside its own ecosystem is just to, well, make it easy to stay inside. Giving the rules away free online is the logical next step on this, as the ridiculous prices charged for the rules are by far the number one reason people go to outside sources to get their material.
The app is probably the first step in this direction. Yes, they still want to sell people new $40 books if they can, but what they really want people to do is get used to the idea of paying $60 a year for the rules, and that this is a "deal," when really they ought to just be releasing rules updates for free.
The rules are already available for free to download right now, not sure how you are reasoning this out to $60/year for them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/10 04:25:23
I like the idea of the app and subscription model a lot. I think it would be great if we eventually got it to the stage that the rules went digital and the books that were released were nice "lore books" detailing the various factions and the universe at large. They could make for a great collection that wouldn't be outdated by new rules and you could slowly build up a definite "library" of sorts, that catalogue and describe the 40k Universe.
The first rule of unarmed combat is: don’t be unarmed.
ClockworkZion wrote:People freaking out about Battlescribe are barking up the wrong tree. Battlescribe doesn't make the datafiles for the games within. It's just a shell that loads independently sourced datafiles for people to use to make their lists. Just like the Lone Wolf Army Builder we had for years during Kirby's days of C&Ding everything and everyone.
Plus Battlescribe has AoS datafiles despite their being and AoS armt builder and GW hasn't said anything about that.
Lone Wolf Army Builder had a licens from GW to do it and the AoS Army Builder is free to use
so not really the same, but only future will tell
going after the platform that makes hosting the illegal content possible is a thing. I know that BS that it that way to be save from any claims in the first place but this does not prevent anyone from starting something (outcome is a different story anyway)
ClockworkZion wrote:Thinking of GW's legal team, the only thing I've heard them doing since Chapterhouse was sending Arch Warhammer a.CJD about his use of "Warhammer" as it is damaging GW's trademark to be associated with him.
Fluffhammer, German community project for updated 8th edition rules (still required the original stuff to be played) got a letter to shut their website down some weeks ago
yukishiro1 wrote: I think GW is finally starting to get that the best way to stop people going outside its own ecosystem is just to, well, make it easy to stay inside. Giving the rules away free online is the logical next step on this, as the ridiculous prices charged for the rules are by far the number one reason people go to outside sources to get their material.
The app is probably the first step in this direction. Yes, they still want to sell people new $40 books if they can, but what they really want people to do is get used to the idea of paying $60 a year for the rules, and that this is a "deal," when really they ought to just be releasing rules updates for free.
The rules are already available for free to download right now, not sure how you are reasoning this out to $60/year for them.
the free rules are missing an important part, so you have to either buy the book or get the App to play the game
which is the way to get people using the App in the first place as it provides free stuff that you can't get somewhere else
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/10 05:58:09
Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise
ClockworkZion wrote:People freaking out about Battlescribe are barking up the wrong tree. Battlescribe doesn't make the datafiles for the games within. It's just a shell that loads independently sourced datafiles for people to use to make their lists. Just like the Lone Wolf Army Builder we had for years during Kirby's days of C&Ding everything and everyone.
Plus Battlescribe has AoS datafiles despite their being and AoS armt builder and GW hasn't said anything about that.
Lone Wolf Army Builder had a licens from GW to do it and the AoS Army Builder is free to use
so not really the same, but only future will tell
going after the platform that makes hosting the illegal content possible is a thing. I know that BS that it that way to be save from any claims in the first place but this does not prevent anyone from starting something (outcome is a different story anyway)
ClockworkZion wrote:Thinking of GW's legal team, the only thing I've heard them doing since Chapterhouse was sending Arch Warhammer a.CJD about his use of "Warhammer" as it is damaging GW's trademark to be associated with him.
Fluffhammer, German community project for updated 8th edition rules (still required the original stuff to be played) got a letter to shut their website down some weeks ago
yukishiro1 wrote: I think GW is finally starting to get that the best way to stop people going outside its own ecosystem is just to, well, make it easy to stay inside. Giving the rules away free online is the logical next step on this, as the ridiculous prices charged for the rules are by far the number one reason people go to outside sources to get their material.
The app is probably the first step in this direction. Yes, they still want to sell people new $40 books if they can, but what they really want people to do is get used to the idea of paying $60 a year for the rules, and that this is a "deal," when really they ought to just be releasing rules updates for free.
The rules are already available for free to download right now, not sure how you are reasoning this out to $60/year for them.
the free rules are missing an important part, so you have to either buy the book or get the App to play the game
which is the way to get people using the App in the first place as it provides free stuff that you can't get somewhere else
Fair point, but BS doesn't host the files, currently GitHub does.
And I hadn't heard about Fluffhammer. Surprised that news wasn't bigger.
yukishiro1 wrote: I think GW is finally starting to get that the best way to stop people going outside its own ecosystem is just to, well, make it easy to stay inside. Giving the rules away free online is the logical next step on this, as the ridiculous prices charged for the rules are by far the number one reason people go to outside sources to get their material.
The app is probably the first step in this direction. Yes, they still want to sell people new $40 books if they can, but what they really want people to do is get used to the idea of paying $60 a year for the rules, and that this is a "deal," when really they ought to just be releasing rules updates for free.
The rules are already available for free to download right now, not sure how you are reasoning this out to $60/year for them.
the free rules are missing an important part, so you have to either buy the book or get the App to play the game
which is the way to get people using the App in the first place as it provides free stuff that you can't get somewhere else
Right, so we can do exactly what we did before (+free digital codex) while people who prefer using the app method can do that instead. It is like having a menu only for oranges, then they add apples to the menu as well as the oranges.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/10 06:04:39
And I hadn't heard about Fluffhammer. Surprised that news wasn't bigger.
I have no details and they made no big news about, I just recognised it after I could not get on the website any more, asked the people what happend and they only information I got was that GW send a C+D and they removed it
no one made anything big out of it (don't know if this was part of the letter or other reasons)
just guessing that this has something to do with The Old World game GW coming up with
And I hadn't heard about Fluffhammer. Surprised that news wasn't bigger.
I have no details and they made no big news about, I just recognised it after I could not get on the website any more, asked the people what happend and they only information I got was that GW send a C+D and they removed it
no one made anything big out of it (don't know if this was part of the letter or other reasons)
just guessing that this has something to do with The Old World game GW coming up with
Aaranis wrote: Jesus Christ we just want the point costs for armies, let us play 9th Edition already, we have the core rules, the leaked missions, JUST LET US PLAAAY. I don't want to play broken 8th anymore. I'm so sick of this teasing and drawing everything at length for MONTHS. Why does it take two weeks to take preorders while it's usually one week ? Seriously half the summer will be gone and we're still with drip-fed informations we already know.
Just release a PDF already Jesus. Nobody's buying stuff except Marine and Necrons players who ordered Indomitus, the rest of us are too scared to buy boxes that will be possibly useless in two weeks. What's the point of waiting dragging everything for so long ?
You could play Power Level if you're that desperate.
And I'm picking up the Apoc Eldar box from.my FLGS tonight, so some of us are still working on army projects.
Power Level is getting revised too (supposedly) and is not really great for Matched Play. I'll just wait, but I'm more upset about that senseless teasing they do every time they release something and drag it down forever. I should just chill out.
I'm angry because we essentially have half of 9th and it's going to stay that way for a long time still. And oh yeah, putting the points behind yet another paywall is a bad move.
What we can learn from this. Gw should have kept silent of 9th longer. Make first hint about it in july.
If you are referring to Chapterhouse, neither side came out very well in the end. However, the only reason Chapterhouse even made it that far was because they had pro-bono representation from one of the most prestigious lawfirms in the country. Chapterhouse still ended up shutting down in the end. Would battlescribe be willing to take that risk?
Opposed to what just roll over and die?
Beats taking tons of loans and dying anyway with additional loans to cover.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/10 06:38:08
Galas wrote: People spent all of 8th complaining about elite units not being worth it because cheap was better... now cheap is not better and we complaint?
Like. Didn't thousand sons players wanted to play rubrics instead of Tzaangors?
I understand. All units should have a place. But I believe people is overeacting. And even if they aren't, who cares? In tops 4-5 months things will change and the "meta" will shake again just like in 8th.
There was a time were it was worth the shoot to buy the most OP stuff because it would be OP 4-6 years. Now it is at most 8 months before it gets nerfed. Is much more productive to try and improve your skill as a player, and not care that much about the power spikes of certain units.
\
at the start of 8th.... elite troops sucked hordes were very much the way to go.
And this was, in fact, bad for the game.
Now, however, we are in the primaris era. Primaris marines have fully supplanted hordes of chaff as being useful. Hordes are no longer the obvious way to go. And this is also bad, but not because hordes are no longer as effective, but because primaris are way too effective.
Also nerfing the gak out of cultists is hardly going to make chaos space marines not suck giant balls. Which I think is what's really gonna stick in the craw of chaos players. Rubrics are not, actually, suddenly playable in any competitive sense. People would fething love it if they could break out their chaos marines and not be handicapping themselves. But they cannot. Nerfing cultists does nothing but hurt chaos because it isn't like GW's decided to make CSM not suck. And, mate, they are certainly not going to give CSM better points than tacticals, and GW's trying real hard to kill tacticals dead.
I’m sure read / saw something a while back that, certainly in the US, you can’t actually copyright game mechanics, including the rules. You can only copyright the fluffier stuff, e.g. names (providing they’re not too generic), artwork, etc. Might make it very difficult to even go after the BattleScribe data files.
Zed wrote: *All statements reflect my opinion at this moment. if some sort of pretty new model gets released (or if I change my mind at random) I reserve the right to jump on any bandwagon at will.
I agree it's probably a bit of a kneejerk reaction overall, the root of the problem stems in that they've not made the rubrics better, they just make a blob of tzaangors worse. If you got 2nd to last in a race of 100 people, the guy who got 50th position being disqualified doesn't make you any more likely to be on the podium.
No, the root of the problem is that people insist upon copy/pasting netlists and riding the coattails of people that are deemed as "good" because of tournament performances and crap like that. They insist upon getting things in one initial swoop for starting an army, rather than playing slowgrows and building things up while experimenting with what they like.
Kanluwen wrote: The "why" of the change is because people whined, and now that they got their wish they'll whine again.
It's an endless cycle of whining.
In the grim darkness of the far future there is only salt.
When your logic is bad, just accuse your opponent of whining!
"Conscripts are overpowered!"
--Conscripts and Commissars get nerfed into the ground
"Guard are overpowered!"
--Guard get nerfed with a points bump to BS3+ unit weapons
all the while people are outright explaining that the issue is the Command Point generation being handed out to other factions via Guard and that a simple fix is forbidding Guard from granting CPs to other factions...whole thing is ignored.
So yeah, you can keep saying "when your logic is bad, just accuse your opponent of whining!"...but it is not necessarily wrong.
"Never ever ask for better rules! Ever!"
Conscript nerf was good for the game. They probably nerfed commissars too hard the other way, but it was better than nigh immortal blobs of infantry.
I mean, on one hand we can accept 40k is just forever broken and a fundamentally terrible game. Or we can demand GW tries to make a better one. Which do you think is better?
I'm always for better rules. I just don't always agree with the internet where the problems are.
I also have strong opinions about points too, but it's all in the name of wanting a game that has more room to be fine tuned properly.
That said, I sincerely hope we get the day one FAQs when the pre-order goes live so we can at least start getting any idea how our armies will be changing even if we don't know about the points yet.
Jadenim wrote: I’m sure read / saw something a while back that, certainly in the US, you can’t actually copyright game mechanics, including the rules. You can only copyright the fluffier stuff, e.g. names (providing they’re not too generic), artwork, etc. Might make it very difficult to even go after the BattleScribe data files.
not only in the US, rules cannot, but the wording can and the idea behind if it is something new
hence why GW does not use the obvious stuff but makes it different even if the outcome is the same (so that hey have something new no one has used before)
yet going to court is something different as just because you are right does not mean you win and you need the money to do so in the first place
Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise
kodos wrote: For now it is not even a list builder as the feature is marked with "coming soon"
ClockworkZion wrote: Well they pointed out that the books will be updated for all FAQs and the like, so that's a nice sales pitch for the app alone.
so now we pay for bug-fix
Go reread that article. If you buy have the 9th ed codex, then you can access it on the app for free. All FAQs will be added for free as well. You only have yo pay to get all the 8th ed books when it launches.
It's actually ambiguous enough wording that you can read it as "And you need to subscribe to see your points". Which would be insane, but, also, super GW.
ClockworkZion wrote: Well they pointed out that the books will be updated for all FAQs and the like, so that's a nice sales pitch for the app alone.
No it isn't. 'We fixed the errors we made, and you can have them for free or pay for them' is incoherent.... unless they get into scummy business practices and stop providing access to the error-fixes for free. And then they're just being jerks (and possibly violating laws about selling faulty products)
If you're buying the books then you get a free digital copy, which gets free digital updates to match the FAQs which is great for quick reference during games. I don't get this claim where paying for the updates is coming from.
I am betting however, that not subscribing will rip all the hyperlinks out of the book you bought. Cause that is a super app style grift.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/10 07:18:28
Sasori wrote: Even if they are 100% right, companies still have to fight it in court. This is (Sadly) a pretty common tactic.
I think they recently c+d'd "popular rule encyclopaedia that I'm not sure I can name on Dakka". I believe they laughed because they are in Russia.
The funny thing is, it's not actually clear at all if wahapedia (which I found literally today weirdly) is breaching any copyrights or trademarks, and, like, communities like dakka are so friggen scared of being smacked with suits they'd knuckle under immediately from mentioning the very existence of it.
Because a large corporation can trivially dump a million plus dollars to bury your ass, and here in America, can do it for no cost to themselves if they file in the right state. Hope you like losing all your money to legal fees, even when you win. This is a totally fair and equal balance of power a free market relies upon of course.
darthryan wrote: I expect battlescribe to get hit with a stop using our rules or we will sue you letter in the next few weeks
Battlescribe doesn't officially supports 40k rules, it is the community who makes 40k modules for Battlescribe.
It would be like trying to sue Excel, it wouldn't get anywhere and would be laughed out of court.
There are a few key differences here.
GW doesn't actually need to win or even be in the right to succeed. The threat of a C&D and a lawsuit is often enough from larger companies to get what they want.
Even if they are 100% right, companies still have to fight it in court. This is (Sadly) a pretty common tactic.
And judges can sanction lawyers and fine plaintiffs for filing frivolous lawsuits exactly so things like this don't happen.
Like I said, just pick a state here in America where such lawsuits are allowed. There's plenty. The company would have to royally piss a judge off for the judge to fine them.
Even if GW has no legal recourse to go after Battlescribe, they can still do so. It still requires Battlescribe to get representation for their case, and there are a lot of costs for that. Maybe they can recoup those later, maybe not. Going after Microsoft, and going after some tiny company are completely different kinds of animals.
There is a very good chance that if GW sent battlescribe a C&D, they would just fold, even if Battlescribe are legally in the right. The cost and resources to fight something like this are a major ask for a few indie developers.
If GW truly believed that they would have sued Battlescribe ages ago like they did with the 40k list builder at the start of 8th.
Which, if you remember, wasn't for the points, but the art.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/10 07:34:34
darthryan wrote: I expect battlescribe to get hit with a stop using our rules or we will sue you letter in the next few weeks
Battlescribe is merely the platform. All the datafiles are community made.
Note that the US has been generally moving in legislative spaces to increasingly allow corporations to sue platforms for content hosted on, but not created by said platform. So, it may be that in a few years battlescribe will be liable. Maybe.
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ClockworkZion wrote: You could us PL and play the Open War Mission or one of the Crusade missions.
I get we live in a world where we want everything immediately but if we just want to get a handle on the new game system we can start playing it now.
Sasori wrote: GW doesn't actually need to win or even be in the right to succeed. The threat of a C&D and a lawsuit is often enough from larger companies to get what they want.
Even if they are 100% right, companies still have to fight it in court. This is (Sadly) a pretty common tactic.
The last time GW tried that it backfired pretty spectacularly. There is no way they'll want to head down that route again.
GW may have lost most of those suits
But chapterhouse is still just as dead today.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/10 07:42:09
yukishiro1 wrote: I think GW is smart enough these days to know that the easier they make it for people to use the models they buy from them at a huge markup, the better. Going after BS doesn't help them sell models, and that's their core business.
Honestly, they'd probably make more money if they just released the rules - 100% of them - online for free, with the books just for people who want a hard copy. One of the biggest barriers to getting people involved in the game is "ok, you're interested in 40k? Pony up $100 for the rules before you can even play any games."
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gadzilla666 wrote: Is it possible that the reason for the delay is that they are updating the existing codexes? Not just points but making plasma explode on natural 1s etcetera?
No. If that was the case, they would say so, to smooth things over. There is zero reason for them to abandon their release schedule with no explanation if there is a good explanation.
No no, you don't understand. GW has to make you pay that much. Else you might get some of the dirty underclass (And, note who gets to be the undercass) playing the game and it's no longer a luxury product. Or some gak.
AduroT wrote: Chapterhouse didn’t even die gracefully. It just... stopped delivering product, while still leaving a function web store up and taking money.
Smaller corporations aren't usually less corrupt than larger ones, no.
4000+
6000+ Order. Unity. Obedience.
Thousand Sons 4000+
If they do that it might make this worthwhile.
