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Sgt. Cortez wrote: Overall 8th already felt like it was very focused on Marine releases, even more than before. If they started with faction specific Primaris units now I think they'll really stretch the patience of their customers. I'm pretty sure it's coming at some point, but after the debacle of the Marine Codex and its supplements last year where they lost a lot of good will from the other 20 factions in the game I think releasing even more Marines could generate the next shitstorm for GW. And after the ridiculous App, strange points and Indomitus I don't think that's what they want to have right now.
Was 8th Marine focused? Any more than previous editions. Off the top of my head, I can remember big releases for the following; Genestealer Cults, Eldar, Dark Eldar, tonnes of Chaos stuff finally updated, and new stuff, Slaaneshi Daemons, a bunch of Ork buggies etc, Admech, and plastic sisters.
Any more than previous editions? You kidding my dude?
in 7th, if I'm remembering correctly, we got the following for loyalist space marines:
-Deathwatch (which was 4 kits, veterans watch master artemis and flyer)
-A new flyer kit
-The new assault marine and devastator kits
-Guilliman and Gk grandmaster guy
-Space wolf wulfen, flyer, santa sleigh
Unless i'm forgetting something, that was all of 7th edition. Which I'd remind you was longer than 8th. I count 12 marine kits across all the marine sub-factions, counting the two loyalists in their triumvirate box as two kits.
Now let's look at 8th edition:
primaris wave 1, at the launch of the edition: Librarian, Apothecary, 2 captains, 4 lieutenants, Intercessors, Reivers, Repulsor, Hellblasters, Aggressors, Redemptor, Inceptors. So, 15.
Primaris wave 2, mid-edition: Another captain, another librarian, another lieutenant, calgar and his 2 buds, Khan, blood angel guy, dark angel guy, space wolf guy, shrike, iron father brokenos, imp fist fatso, salamander guy, eliminators, suppressors, invictus warsuit, inceptors/infiltrators, primaris rhino thingy. 17 kits. not counting the upgrade kits for every chapter.
Primaris wave 3, toward the end of the edition to now: Tigurius, ragnar, assault intercessors, eradicators, blade veterans, blade veteran ancient, primario kart, primaris bikers, primaris techmarine, primaris turret with the dude on it, primaris drop pod turret. 11 kits that we know of so far.
so that's....forty-three, I think?
compare to the sisters "entire army relaunch" they did: Rhino, Immolator, Exorcist, Sisters squad, repentia, seraphim, arco-flags, retributors, hospitallier, dialogus, canoness, pen engine, triumph, lady in a big pulpit thingy, banner lady. 15 kits.
If you remember "big releases for eldar and dark eldar" which were both count 'em one kit and one character, and you don't remember that we had three waves of primaris stuff the size of the sisters' entire model relaunch, I really gotta question your awareness.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/15 12:05:21
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Sgt. Cortez wrote: Overall 8th already felt like it was very focused on Marine releases, even more than before. If they started with faction specific Primaris units now I think they'll really stretch the patience of their customers. I'm pretty sure it's coming at some point, but after the debacle of the Marine Codex and its supplements last year where they lost a lot of good will from the other 20 factions in the game I think releasing even more Marines could generate the next shitstorm for GW. And after the ridiculous App, strange points and Indomitus I don't think that's what they want to have right now.
Was 8th Marine focused? Any more than previous editions. Off the top of my head, I can remember big releases for the following; Genestealer Cults, Eldar, Dark Eldar, tonnes of Chaos stuff finally updated, and new stuff, Slaaneshi Daemons, a bunch of Ork buggies etc, Admech, and plastic sisters.
Marines had about 30 new releases in 8th (going by what you can buy on the GW page now, doesn't include books), one could add all the lieutenants that aren't for sale on the GW page and also the SM heroes series.
Dark Eldar had 2
Eldar 2
Tau 1
Chaos Daemons 12
Admech 5
Orks: 8
Genestealers: Not familiar with them, don't know what was in 8th and what before
Death Guard: 20, but that includes all variants of Plague marines (which are 6 alone)
CSM: about 15, hard to count as there's a lot of units that aren't available on their own yet, but if you'd count those the Marine number would be much higher, too.
SoB: about 20
So, to conclude, the two factions that were made from scratch (SoB and Death Guard) might compete with Primaris (20 each compared to minimum 30(there are a lot of things ignored when counting Primaris while the numbers on the other factions are pretty exact)) - which were additions to the already largest and newest range in the game.
What makes the feeling about Primaris dominance even stronger is that they feature in most boxsets, had three waves compared to one of other factions and had a load of supplements while CSM for example, which got a pretty sizeable release, had their kits stuck to multipart in a starterbox and a lazy Codex 2.0 that included nothing more than a Vigilus patch.
8th edition has been in general much more prolific in miniature terms. You don't have to look at absolute numbers, but at relative ones.
7th had 12 marine kits, but also didn't have much else. A few tyranids monsters and a few more kits for the fall of Cadia. Admech were 6th or 7th?
8th had the primaries, but also the Orktober, the GSC, the sisters, some Aeldari, new greater demons, the rogue trader forces, new admech stuff, inquisitors and a lot more stuff which I'm sure I'm forgetting.
Not sure if the point stands, or even like this the marines are still hugely more represented, just pointing out that you are providing the wrong data.
Spoletta wrote: 8th edition has been in general much more prolific in miniature terms. You don't have to look at absolute numbers, but at relative ones.
7th had 12 marine kits, but also didn't have much else. A few tyranids monsters and a few more kits for the fall of Cadia. Admech were 6th or 7th?
8th had the primaries, but also the Orktober, the GSC, the sisters, some Aeldari, new greater demons, the rogue trader forces, new admech stuff, inquisitors and a lot more stuff which I'm sure I'm forgetting.
Not sure if the point stands, or even like this the marines are still hugely more represented, just pointing out that you are providing the wrong data.
See Cortez' reply regarding relative numbers of releases in 8th.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
TBHGW is in general pumping out many more miniatures than before. I mean. In this past three years with 40k, AoS, Necromunda, Bloodbowl, Adeptus Titanicus, Aeronautica Imperialis, Blackstone Fortress, etc... they have produced more plastic kits than probably in the 10 years prior.
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: Overall 8th already felt like it was very focused on Marine releases, even more than before. If they started with faction specific Primaris units now I think they'll really stretch the patience of their customers. I'm pretty sure it's coming at some point, but after the debacle of the Marine Codex and its supplements last year where they lost a lot of good will from the other 20 factions in the game I think releasing even more Marines could generate the next shitstorm for GW. And after the ridiculous App, strange points and Indomitus I don't think that's what they want to have right now.
Was 8th Marine focused? Any more than previous editions. Off the top of my head, I can remember big releases for the following; Genestealer Cults, Eldar, Dark Eldar, tonnes of Chaos stuff finally updated, and new stuff, Slaaneshi Daemons, a bunch of Ork buggies etc, Admech, and plastic sisters.
Any more than previous editions? You kidding my dude?
in 7th, if I'm remembering correctly, we got the following for loyalist space marines:
-Deathwatch (which was 4 kits, veterans watch master artemis and flyer)
-A new flyer kit
-The new assault marine and devastator kits
-Guilliman and Gk grandmaster guy
-Space wolf wulfen, flyer, santa sleigh
Unless i'm forgetting something, that was all of 7th edition. Which I'd remind you was longer than 8th. I count 12 marine kits across all the marine sub-factions, counting the two loyalists in their triumvirate box as two kits.
Now let's look at 8th edition:
primaris wave 1, at the launch of the edition: Librarian, Apothecary, 2 captains, 4 lieutenants, Intercessors, Reivers, Repulsor, Hellblasters, Aggressors, Redemptor, Inceptors. So, 15.
Primaris wave 2, mid-edition: Another captain, another librarian, another lieutenant, calgar and his 2 buds, Khan, blood angel guy, dark angel guy, space wolf guy, shrike, iron father brokenos, imp fist fatso, salamander guy, eliminators, suppressors, invictus warsuit, inceptors/infiltrators, primaris rhino thingy. 17 kits. not counting the upgrade kits for every chapter.
Primaris wave 3, toward the end of the edition to now: Tigurius, ragnar, assault intercessors, eradicators, blade veterans, blade veteran ancient, primario kart, primaris bikers, primaris techmarine, primaris turret with the dude on it, primaris drop pod turret. 11 kits that we know of so far.
so that's....forty-three, I think?
compare to the sisters "entire army relaunch" they did: Rhino, Immolator, Exorcist, Sisters squad, repentia, seraphim, arco-flags, retributors, hospitallier, dialogus, canoness, pen engine, triumph, lady in a big pulpit thingy, banner lady. 15 kits.
If you remember "big releases for eldar and dark eldar" which were both count 'em one kit and one character, and you don't remember that we had three waves of primaris stuff the size of the sisters' entire model relaunch, I really gotta question your awareness.
People get so triggered about this.
Like I said, 8th wasn’t any more Marine focused than previous editions. You said yourself 7th was mostly Marine releases. We’ve had way more releases for other factions over the period of 8th edition. It’s obvious that GW are trying to replace finecast kits, but they aren’t going to stop releasing the stuff that makes them the most money.
Marines will always have their main attention, it’s never been any different, people need to get over this already.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/15 13:02:17
I loved all those Tyranid releases in 8th and 7th.
Seriously eldar players know nothing of the horrors of failcast. You never had to suffer through resin venomthropes, lictors or warrior boneswords & lashwhips.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: Overall 8th already felt like it was very focused on Marine releases, even more than before. If they started with faction specific Primaris units now I think they'll really stretch the patience of their customers. I'm pretty sure it's coming at some point, but after the debacle of the Marine Codex and its supplements last year where they lost a lot of good will from the other 20 factions in the game I think releasing even more Marines could generate the next shitstorm for GW. And after the ridiculous App, strange points and Indomitus I don't think that's what they want to have right now.
Was 8th Marine focused? Any more than previous editions. Off the top of my head, I can remember big releases for the following; Genestealer Cults, Eldar, Dark Eldar, tonnes of Chaos stuff finally updated, and new stuff, Slaaneshi Daemons, a bunch of Ork buggies etc, Admech, and plastic sisters.
Off the top of my head I remember that each time one of them got something, space marines got at least a single release on average. As a chaos player I am grateful for the chaos overhaul of the model line, but still... The fact that people are playing with models that are of drinking age (I’m looking at you Eldar) even though the entire space marine range is being overhauled with primaricrap equivalents.... and the blatant rules pandering to space marines, along with the fact that space marines sucked the flavor out of every other army... people are eventually going to get bored of seeing every game end with “and the space marines saved the day again!” Or eventually get bored of space marine vs space marine combat... Heck if I was a space marine player I don’t even know if I can stand flipping through the darn elites section of the codex. My head hurts just from seeing the massive roster of units there. They got more elites than some armies have codex entries. And they still add more... it’s exhausting to watch marines hijack the meta over and over again. And to see their roster grow bigger and bigger.
Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. -Kurt Vonnegut
Sgt. Cortez wrote: Overall 8th already felt like it was very focused on Marine releases, even more than before. If they started with faction specific Primaris units now I think they'll really stretch the patience of their customers. I'm pretty sure it's coming at some point, but after the debacle of the Marine Codex and its supplements last year where they lost a lot of good will from the other 20 factions in the game I think releasing even more Marines could generate the next shitstorm for GW. And after the ridiculous App, strange points and Indomitus I don't think that's what they want to have right now.
Was 8th Marine focused? Any more than previous editions. Off the top of my head, I can remember big releases for the following; Genestealer Cults, Eldar, Dark Eldar, tonnes of Chaos stuff finally updated, and new stuff, Slaaneshi Daemons, a bunch of Ork buggies etc, Admech, and plastic sisters.
Any more than previous editions? You kidding my dude?
in 7th, if I'm remembering correctly, we got the following for loyalist space marines:
-Deathwatch (which was 4 kits, veterans watch master artemis and flyer)
-A new flyer kit
-The new assault marine and devastator kits
-Guilliman and Gk grandmaster guy
-Space wolf wulfen, flyer, santa sleigh
Unless i'm forgetting something, that was all of 7th edition. Which I'd remind you was longer than 8th. I count 12 marine kits across all the marine sub-factions, counting the two loyalists in their triumvirate box as two kits.
Now let's look at 8th edition:
primaris wave 1, at the launch of the edition: Librarian, Apothecary, 2 captains, 4 lieutenants, Intercessors, Reivers, Repulsor, Hellblasters, Aggressors, Redemptor, Inceptors. So, 15.
Primaris wave 2, mid-edition: Another captain, another librarian, another lieutenant, calgar and his 2 buds, Khan, blood angel guy, dark angel guy, space wolf guy, shrike, iron father brokenos, imp fist fatso, salamander guy, eliminators, suppressors, invictus warsuit, inceptors/infiltrators, primaris rhino thingy. 17 kits. not counting the upgrade kits for every chapter.
Primaris wave 3, toward the end of the edition to now: Tigurius, ragnar, assault intercessors, eradicators, blade veterans, blade veteran ancient, primario kart, primaris bikers, primaris techmarine, primaris turret with the dude on it, primaris drop pod turret. 11 kits that we know of so far.
so that's....forty-three, I think?
compare to the sisters "entire army relaunch" they did: Rhino, Immolator, Exorcist, Sisters squad, repentia, seraphim, arco-flags, retributors, hospitallier, dialogus, canoness, pen engine, triumph, lady in a big pulpit thingy, banner lady. 15 kits.
If you remember "big releases for eldar and dark eldar" which were both count 'em one kit and one character, and you don't remember that we had three waves of primaris stuff the size of the sisters' entire model relaunch, I really gotta question your awareness.
People get so triggered about this.
Like I said, 8th wasn’t any more Marine focused than previous editions. You said yourself 7th was mostly Marine releases. We’ve had way more releases for other factions over the period of 8th edition. It’s obvious that GW are trying to replace finecast kits, but they aren’t going to stop releasing the stuff that makes them the most money.
Marines will always have their main attention, it’s never been any different, people need to get over this already.
I think you misunderstood Scotsman's point. Scotsman listed the new Marine kits in 7th... not the kits total. You had a large Tau refresh, Tyranids got some stuff right before the start, Harlequins, yadda yadda... in relative terms, way more of a Xenos-focused edition than 8th. If you won't acknowledge that then there's no point to even discuss.
If that was the case you wouldn't be posting big blocks of Math Hammer to "prove" your various points.
We can analyse units/weapons and so on by reading the rules for them because we have had the experience of playing games and because sometimes comparisons are bleedingly obvious.
Daedalus81 wrote: BRB guys. Gonna go buy stock in straw and poles. The market is booming!
You really don't get Doobie's post. That's fine. Most of the newer folk don't.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: Overall 8th already felt like it was very focused on Marine releases, even more than before. If they started with faction specific Primaris units now I think they'll really stretch the patience of their customers. I'm pretty sure it's coming at some point, but after the debacle of the Marine Codex and its supplements last year where they lost a lot of good will from the other 20 factions in the game I think releasing even more Marines could generate the next shitstorm for GW. And after the ridiculous App, strange points and Indomitus I don't think that's what they want to have right now.
Was 8th Marine focused? Any more than previous editions. Off the top of my head, I can remember big releases for the following; Genestealer Cults, Eldar, Dark Eldar, tonnes of Chaos stuff finally updated, and new stuff, Slaaneshi Daemons, a bunch of Ork buggies etc, Admech, and plastic sisters.
Any more than previous editions? You kidding my dude?
in 7th, if I'm remembering correctly, we got the following for loyalist space marines:
-Deathwatch (which was 4 kits, veterans watch master artemis and flyer)
-A new flyer kit
-The new assault marine and devastator kits
-Guilliman and Gk grandmaster guy
-Space wolf wulfen, flyer, santa sleigh
Unless i'm forgetting something, that was all of 7th edition. Which I'd remind you was longer than 8th. I count 12 marine kits across all the marine sub-factions, counting the two loyalists in their triumvirate box as two kits.
Now let's look at 8th edition:
primaris wave 1, at the launch of the edition: Librarian, Apothecary, 2 captains, 4 lieutenants, Intercessors, Reivers, Repulsor, Hellblasters, Aggressors, Redemptor, Inceptors. So, 15.
Primaris wave 2, mid-edition: Another captain, another librarian, another lieutenant, calgar and his 2 buds, Khan, blood angel guy, dark angel guy, space wolf guy, shrike, iron father brokenos, imp fist fatso, salamander guy, eliminators, suppressors, invictus warsuit, inceptors/infiltrators, primaris rhino thingy. 17 kits. not counting the upgrade kits for every chapter.
Primaris wave 3, toward the end of the edition to now: Tigurius, ragnar, assault intercessors, eradicators, blade veterans, blade veteran ancient, primario kart, primaris bikers, primaris techmarine, primaris turret with the dude on it, primaris drop pod turret. 11 kits that we know of so far.
so that's....forty-three, I think?
compare to the sisters "entire army relaunch" they did: Rhino, Immolator, Exorcist, Sisters squad, repentia, seraphim, arco-flags, retributors, hospitallier, dialogus, canoness, pen engine, triumph, lady in a big pulpit thingy, banner lady. 15 kits.
If you remember "big releases for eldar and dark eldar" which were both count 'em one kit and one character, and you don't remember that we had three waves of primaris stuff the size of the sisters' entire model relaunch, I really gotta question your awareness.
People get so triggered about this.
Like I said, 8th wasn’t any more Marine focused than previous editions. You said yourself 7th was mostly Marine releases. We’ve had way more releases for other factions over the period of 8th edition. It’s obvious that GW are trying to replace finecast kits, but they aren’t going to stop releasing the stuff that makes them the most money.
Marines will always have their main attention, it’s never been any different, people need to get over this already.
Lol. I didn't "say myself" that 7th was mostly marine focused. In both 7th and 6th marines got about the same fraction of releases as other factions, and a lot of the marine releases were just for the little marine sub-factions like deathwatch and space wolves.
In 8th, there were a massive amount of marine releases that they then had to put in more releases to make sure they proliferated out to every little special snowflake sub-faction codex of marines. They got 2 codexes, a codex for every sub-faction, and a supplement book for every founding chapter.
In terms of both rules and models there were far, far FAR more marines in 8th as a fraction of the total releases in that edition than any other edition I have played in or heard of. They absolutely did ramp up production of new models in general, but just like was the norm in previous editions, plenty of factions saw absolutely diddly squat all edition long, or got like a single character clampack.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Kirasu wrote: I think it's important to discount redundant models for marines as well. 13 primaris lieutenants is really just 1 new kit (IE a primaris lieutenant).
that's an interesting way to look at things.
Can I have 11 different kits for ork warbosses with different wargear? That'd be sick.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Kirasu wrote: I think it's important to discount redundant models for marines as well. 13 primaris lieutenants is really just 1 new kit (IE a primaris lieutenant).
that's an interesting way to look at things.
Can I have 11 different kits for ork warbosses with different wargear? That'd be sick.
If at least the Lieteneauts primaris had different wargear... the sad thing is that barring 2-3 the other 10 have the same wargear.
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
I think some of us can dial it down a notch please, Ta.
The focus on the primaris stuff might well be somewhat vexing but as it is the replacement of the biggest selling line it is gonna take a while.
One of the surprises for me of this edition is that we didn't get "endless physic affects" /similar.
Given we've just had an entire series of books released about the increase in psykers and s forth I would've thought a 40k equivalent of the spell models would've been a shoo-in --- but I guess we'll have to wait longer for a giant glowing green foot of Mork -- or maybe even Gork -- to stomp around the table.
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
reds8n wrote: Given we've just had an entire series of books released about the increase in psykers and s forth I would've thought a 40k equivalent of the spell models would've been a shoo-in --- but I guess we'll have to wait longer for a giant glowing green foot of Mork -- or maybe even Gork -- to stomp around the table.
I did find it amusing that the entire effect of the great "psychic awakening" for the largest human faction was "well, you get 1 stratagem for a unit no one takes!".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/15 14:10:47
Sgt. Cortez wrote: Overall 8th already felt like it was very focused on Marine releases, even more than before. If they started with faction specific Primaris units now I think they'll really stretch the patience of their customers. I'm pretty sure it's coming at some point, but after the debacle of the Marine Codex and its supplements last year where they lost a lot of good will from the other 20 factions in the game I think releasing even more Marines could generate the next shitstorm for GW. And after the ridiculous App, strange points and Indomitus I don't think that's what they want to have right now.
Was 8th Marine focused? Any more than previous editions. Off the top of my head, I can remember big releases for the following; Genestealer Cults, Eldar, Dark Eldar, tonnes of Chaos stuff finally updated, and new stuff, Slaaneshi Daemons, a bunch of Ork buggies etc, Admech, and plastic sisters.
Any more than previous editions? You kidding my dude?
in 7th, if I'm remembering correctly, we got the following for loyalist space marines:
-Deathwatch (which was 4 kits, veterans watch master artemis and flyer)
-A new flyer kit
-The new assault marine and devastator kits
-Guilliman and Gk grandmaster guy
-Space wolf wulfen, flyer, santa sleigh
Unless i'm forgetting something, that was all of 7th edition. Which I'd remind you was longer than 8th. I count 12 marine kits across all the marine sub-factions, counting the two loyalists in their triumvirate box as two kits.
Now let's look at 8th edition:
primaris wave 1, at the launch of the edition: Librarian, Apothecary, 2 captains, 4 lieutenants, Intercessors, Reivers, Repulsor, Hellblasters, Aggressors, Redemptor, Inceptors. So, 15.
Primaris wave 2, mid-edition: Another captain, another librarian, another lieutenant, calgar and his 2 buds, Khan, blood angel guy, dark angel guy, space wolf guy, shrike, iron father brokenos, imp fist fatso, salamander guy, eliminators, suppressors, invictus warsuit, inceptors/infiltrators, primaris rhino thingy. 17 kits. not counting the upgrade kits for every chapter.
Primaris wave 3, toward the end of the edition to now: Tigurius, ragnar, assault intercessors, eradicators, blade veterans, blade veteran ancient, primario kart, primaris bikers, primaris techmarine, primaris turret with the dude on it, primaris drop pod turret. 11 kits that we know of so far.
so that's....forty-three, I think?
compare to the sisters "entire army relaunch" they did: Rhino, Immolator, Exorcist, Sisters squad, repentia, seraphim, arco-flags, retributors, hospitallier, dialogus, canoness, pen engine, triumph, lady in a big pulpit thingy, banner lady. 15 kits.
If you remember "big releases for eldar and dark eldar" which were both count 'em one kit and one character, and you don't remember that we had three waves of primaris stuff the size of the sisters' entire model relaunch, I really gotta question your awareness.
People get so triggered about this.
Like I said, 8th wasn’t any more Marine focused than previous editions. You said yourself 7th was mostly Marine releases. We’ve had way more releases for other factions over the period of 8th edition. It’s obvious that GW are trying to replace finecast kits, but they aren’t going to stop releasing the stuff that makes them the most money.
Marines will always have their main attention, it’s never been any different, people need to get over this already.
Lol. I didn't "say myself" that 7th was mostly marine focused. In both 7th and 6th marines got about the same fraction of releases as other factions, and a lot of the marine releases were just for the little marine sub-factions like deathwatch and space wolves.
In 8th, there were a massive amount of marine releases that they then had to put in more releases to make sure they proliferated out to every little special snowflake sub-faction codex of marines. They got 2 codexes, a codex for every sub-faction, and a supplement book for every founding chapter.
In terms of both rules and models there were far, far FAR more marines in 8th as a fraction of the total releases in that edition than any other edition I have played in or heard of. They absolutely did ramp up production of new models in general, but just like was the norm in previous editions, plenty of factions saw absolutely diddly squat all edition long, or got like a single character clampack.
Yeah sorry, I misinterpreted what you said, you only listed the marine kits for 7th so I thought that’s what you were getting at.
You’re right about them ramping up production and releases, we’ve seen far more releases in general over the last 3 years or so, including lots of stuff for the non Marine factions. I don’t think there’s any point people getting their knickers in a twist about the amount of Marine releases there are though, that’s just the way it is, they are the poster boys, and that just isn’t going to change, no matter how many people stamp their feet about the amount of finecast still in the Eldar product line.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/15 14:21:48
Kirasu wrote: I think it's important to discount redundant models for marines as well. 13 primaris lieutenants is really just 1 new kit (IE a primaris lieutenant).
I don't. That's a huge part of the problem!
If the 20-odd primaris kits were actually a dozen or so primaris kits, they'd be far less of a problem. Instead they've constantly been an opportunity cost in terms of releases.
A primaris LT with a half a dozen weapon options would never have been the derisive joke it became.
We're already seeing the same with primaris chaplains. We're getting our second foot chaplain, and soon a chaplain on bike. Which itself is a missed opportunity, because it begs the existence of a captain on bike, LT on bike, librarian on bike, phobos LT on bike, etc.
Add a few bits in the kit so you could do all of those from the same box and it wouldn't feel nearly so bad.
They really needed to do a lot more of the primaris line like they did incursors/Infilitrators. Starting with the intercessors/hellblasters and going all the way to the repulsor/executioner (which might help with the ridiculous price tags on those)
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/15 14:25:33
No, they have absolutely no idea what their clients want and how to run their business.
But I would love to see the numbers showing their different LTs were loss leaders. I am sure they saw themselves losing money on the 5th LT and said “keep spinnng them up for 10 more”
Also what is with treating all marines as exactly the same, seems like a bad faith presentation of data, statistical manipulation. If 1 kit can be used by 5-10 different books than it will naturally sell more than a model only used by 1 book. Meanwhile certain kits will only realistically be used by other subsections of those 5-10 books.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2020/07/15 14:30:50
People who stopped buying GW but wont stop bitching about it are the vegans of warhammer
You would have thought that a multipose, multioption kit would be a much better investment than so many different models. With the setup costs for plastic moulding being what they are, they must be selling so many of these LTs to make a profit.
I would think a multi pose modular kit would be much harder to design and fit on a sprue than a single posse that can practically be cut almost anywhere to get them to fit together.
Especially since most of the LTs were limited from my understanding/special events ones so not worried about long term stocking amongst other logistical issues. Mail out once and done.
I don’t like all the LTs, I think they are all stupid. Doesn’t mean I know enough to claim it is bad business.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/15 14:34:38
People who stopped buying GW but wont stop bitching about it are the vegans of warhammer
Sgt. Cortez wrote: Overall 8th already felt like it was very focused on Marine releases, even more than before. If they started with faction specific Primaris units now I think they'll really stretch the patience of their customers. I'm pretty sure it's coming at some point, but after the debacle of the Marine Codex and its supplements last year where they lost a lot of good will from the other 20 factions in the game I think releasing even more Marines could generate the next shitstorm for GW. And after the ridiculous App, strange points and Indomitus I don't think that's what they want to have right now.
Was 8th Marine focused? Any more than previous editions. Off the top of my head, I can remember big releases for the following; Genestealer Cults, Eldar, Dark Eldar, tonnes of Chaos stuff finally updated, and new stuff, Slaaneshi Daemons, a bunch of Ork buggies etc, Admech, and plastic sisters.
Any more than previous editions? You kidding my dude?
in 7th, if I'm remembering correctly, we got the following for loyalist space marines:
-Deathwatch (which was 4 kits, veterans watch master artemis and flyer)
-A new flyer kit
-The new assault marine and devastator kits
-Guilliman and Gk grandmaster guy
-Space wolf wulfen, flyer, santa sleigh
Unless i'm forgetting something, that was all of 7th edition. Which I'd remind you was longer than 8th. I count 12 marine kits across all the marine sub-factions, counting the two loyalists in their triumvirate box as two kits.
Now let's look at 8th edition:
primaris wave 1, at the launch of the edition: Librarian, Apothecary, 2 captains, 4 lieutenants, Intercessors, Reivers, Repulsor, Hellblasters, Aggressors, Redemptor, Inceptors. So, 15.
Primaris wave 2, mid-edition: Another captain, another librarian, another lieutenant, calgar and his 2 buds, Khan, blood angel guy, dark angel guy, space wolf guy, shrike, iron father brokenos, imp fist fatso, salamander guy, eliminators, suppressors, invictus warsuit, inceptors/infiltrators, primaris rhino thingy. 17 kits. not counting the upgrade kits for every chapter.
Primaris wave 3, toward the end of the edition to now: Tigurius, ragnar, assault intercessors, eradicators, blade veterans, blade veteran ancient, primario kart, primaris bikers, primaris techmarine, primaris turret with the dude on it, primaris drop pod turret. 11 kits that we know of so far.
so that's....forty-three, I think?
compare to the sisters "entire army relaunch" they did: Rhino, Immolator, Exorcist, Sisters squad, repentia, seraphim, arco-flags, retributors, hospitallier, dialogus, canoness, pen engine, triumph, lady in a big pulpit thingy, banner lady. 15 kits.
If you remember "big releases for eldar and dark eldar" which were both count 'em one kit and one character, and you don't remember that we had three waves of primaris stuff the size of the sisters' entire model relaunch, I really gotta question your awareness.
People get so triggered about this.
Like I said, 8th wasn’t any more Marine focused than previous editions. You said yourself 7th was mostly Marine releases. We’ve had way more releases for other factions over the period of 8th edition. It’s obvious that GW are trying to replace finecast kits, but they aren’t going to stop releasing the stuff that makes them the most money.
Marines will always have their main attention, it’s never been any different, people need to get over this already.
Lol. I didn't "say myself" that 7th was mostly marine focused. In both 7th and 6th marines got about the same fraction of releases as other factions, and a lot of the marine releases were just for the little marine sub-factions like deathwatch and space wolves.
In 8th, there were a massive amount of marine releases that they then had to put in more releases to make sure they proliferated out to every little special snowflake sub-faction codex of marines. They got 2 codexes, a codex for every sub-faction, and a supplement book for every founding chapter.
In terms of both rules and models there were far, far FAR more marines in 8th as a fraction of the total releases in that edition than any other edition I have played in or heard of. They absolutely did ramp up production of new models in general, but just like was the norm in previous editions, plenty of factions saw absolutely diddly squat all edition long, or got like a single character clampack.
Yeah sorry, I misinterpreted what you said, you only listed the marine kits for 7th so I thought that’s what you were getting at.
You’re right about them ramping up production and releases, we’ve seen far more releases in general over the last 3 years or so, including lots of stuff for the non Marine factions. I don’t think there’s any point people getting their knickers in a twist about the amount of Marine releases there are though, that’s just the way it is, they are the poster boys, and that just isn’t going to change, no matter how many people stamp their feet about the amount of finecast still in the Eldar product line.
Random factoid, here's a chunk of the releases for 7th (missing a year as warseer packed in before 8th came out)
Spoiler:
July 2016: Stormcloud Attack: Faith & Heresy/The Eldritch & the Beast/The Ancient & the Greater Good
Space Marines - Mark IV Tactical Marines
Space Marines - Cataphractii Terminators
Space Marines - Contemptor Dreadnought
Space Marines - Terminator Captain
Space Marines - Chaplain
June 2016: Lost Patrol
Tyranids - Broodlord
Imperial Guard - Techpriest Enginseer
April 2016: Angels of Death (6th/7th edition)
Space Marines - Imperial Space Marine
Space Marines - Captain
February 2016: War Zone Fenris: Curse of the Wulfen + Deathwatch: Overkill
Space Wolves - Ulrik the Slayer
Space Wolves - Iron Priest
Space Wolves - Wulfen
Tyranids - Genestealer Patriarch
Tyranids - Genestealer Primus
Tyranids - Genestealer Magus
Tyranids - Genestealer Familiars
Tyranids - Purestrain Genestealers
Tyranids - Genestealer Hybrids
Tyranids - Genestealer Aberrants
Space Marines - Deathwatch
November 2015: Tau Empire (6th/7th edition) + War Zone Damocles: Kauyon + Horus Heresy: Betrayal at Calth
Tau - Drones
Tau - Commander
Tau - XV8 Crisis Battlesuits
Space Marines/Chaos - Terminator Captain
Space Marines/Chaos - Cataphractii Terminators
Space Marines/Chaos - Contemptor Dreadnought
Space Marines/Chaos - MKIV Space Marines
Chaos - Dark Apostle
Blood Angels - Jump Pack Chaplain
Imperial Guard - Techpriest Enginseer
October 2015
Chaos - Skarbrand
Tau - KV128 Stormsurge
Tau - XV95 Ghostkeel
Tau - Ethereal
Tau - Fire Warriors
June 2015: Adeptus Mechanicus Cult Mechanicus (6th/7th edition) + Space Marines (6th/7th edition)
Adeptus Mechanicus - Tech-Priest Dominus
Adeptus Mechanicus - Corpuscarii Electro-Priests
Adeptus Mechanicus - Fulgurite Electro-Priests
Space Marines - Assault Marines
Space Marines - Devastators
Space Marines - Terminator Librarian
April 2015: Adeptus Mechanicus Skitarii (6th/7th edition) + Eldar Craftworlds (6th/7th edition)
Adeptus Mechanicus - Skitarii Vanguard/Rangers
Adeptus Mechanicus - Ironstrider Ballistarius/Sydonian Dragoon
Adeptus Mechanicus - Sicarian Ruststalkers/Sicarian Infiltrators
Adeptus Mechanicus - Onager Dunecrawler
Eldar - Autarch
Eldar - Windriders
Eldar - Farseer/Warlock Skyrunner
March 2015: Khorne Daemonkin (6th/7th edition)
Chaos - Bloodthirster
February 2015: Harlequins (6th/7th edition)
Eldar - Harlequins
Eldar - Solitaire
Eldar - Skyweavers
Eldar - Starweaver/Voidweaver
Eldar - Shadowseer
Eldar - Death Jester
January 2015: Necrons (6th/7th edition)
Necrons - Overlord
October 2014: Dark Eldar (6th/7th edition) + Haemonculus Covens (6th/7th edition)
Dark Eldar - Voidraven Bomber
Dark Eldar - Archon
Dark Eldar - Succubus
September 2014
Dark Eldar - Haemonculus
Dark Eldar - Wracks
August 2014: Space Wolves (6th/7th edition) + Champions of Fenris (6th/7th edition) + Grey Knights (6th/7th edition)
Space Wolves - Stormfang/Stormwolf
Space Wolves - Venerable Dreadnought/Bjorn the Fell-Handed/Murderfang
Space Wolves - Logan Grimnar on Stormrider
July 2014: WAAAGH! Ghazghkull (6th/7th edition) + Sanctus Reach: Stormclaw
Orks - Mega-Armoured Nobz + Mega-Armoured Mek
Orks - Warboss
Space Wolves - Wolf Lord Krom
June 2014: Orks (6th/7th edition)
*Orks - Gorkanaut/Morkanaut
*Orks - Flash Gitz
Orks - Mek Gunz
Orks - Big Mek with Shokk Attack Gun
Orks - Mek
Orks - Painboy
May 2014: Warhammer 40,000 (6.5/7th edition)
Space Marines - Terminator Captain
In short: mostly marines still (29 between the subfactions where as the next biggest winner was nids at 12) between start of 7th and July 2016.
reds8n wrote: The focus on the primaris stuff might well be somewhat vexing but as it is the replacement of the biggest selling line it is gonna take a while.
Take a while for what? To completely replace the line? And then what? You really think the flood of primaris models is going to stop? Maybe, when they decide to replace them with ULTRAMARIS MARINES and start the whole process over, but not before. I heard people saying a similar thing when they were updating the entire mini-marine line to plastic. Just wait, once they finish getting the whole space marine line into plastic then they can move on to plastic aspect warriors! Well, they finished. And look what happened.
Kirasu wrote: I think it's important to discount redundant models for marines as well. 13 primaris lieutenants is really just 1 new kit (IE a primaris lieutenant).
Why? No it's 13 new kits.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
Trickstick wrote: You would have thought that a multipose, multioption kit would be a much better investment than so many different models. With the setup costs for plastic moulding being what they are, they must be selling so many of these LTs to make a profit.
Since GW produces everything in house and also uses the possibility of cheaper aluminium molds the design is the expensive part
hence why we see copy&paste poses a lot, as they re-use basic designs, re-scale it if necessary and add specific elements on top of it
they don't need to sell a lot of the LT's to make it the cheaper option it is more like the other way around, if they sell too much it gets more expensive
Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise
reds8n wrote: The focus on the primaris stuff might well be somewhat vexing but as it is the replacement of the biggest selling line it is gonna take a while.
Take a while for what? To completely replace the line? And then what? You really think the flood of primaris models is going to stop? Maybe, when they decide to replace them with ULTRAMARIS MARINES and start the whole process over, but not before. I heard people saying a similar thing when they were updating the entire mini-marine line to plastic. Just wait, once they finish getting the whole space marine line into plastic then they can move on to plastic aspect warriors! Well, they finished. And look what happened.
It'll slow down a little and become a stream rather than a flood with some luck, but it's normal, people seem to play up to it far worse than they ever used to previously.
Didn’t they release some plastic aspect warriors? Or were you expecting them to do it all at once?
Aspect warriors are a costly unit to upgrade(side note:I am 100% surprised they didn’t make the biker kit a hybrid shining spears set) since each plastic kit requires completely seperate sprues(no multi kit capability) to do them justice for a unit that might only get bought 1-2 per eldar player(if that).
Now compare that to the multi-kit for a marine army. Codex marines, dark angels, blood angels, space wolves etc players will buy 1. In addition they might buy multiple because they have different flavors of marines. Now you are looking at 2-4 per marine player(possibly). Just from a business decision it makes a lot more sense to release 1 marine kit than 5 aspects. My dad plays almost every variety of marines and while he doesn’t buy it for all of them, I know for his 30k armies he has 20-30 rhinos as an example.
just from an ease of design, your designers can probably design a marine in their sleep at this point. Heck they probably have a primaris marine template they can just make modifications too. Eldar aspects? Each one probably has to be freshly deigned from the ground up.
We also have to accept that competitive players, while they are the most vocal, they do not represent the entirety of GW player base nor necessarily the majority of the player base. Collectors, painters, etc garage hammer are also huge parts of the hobby and I can’t say for sure but I feel like their priorities are different.
Contrary to what everyone says warhammer as a middle class hobby is not very expensive. You might think it is expensive for what you get(it is) but after a certain point you focus on per hour over anything else. Per hour it is probably one of the cheaper hobbies in the middle class range you can get into(IMO).
5 beers at a bar can easily be $50 with tips for one person. That’s not even considering cocktails, 3 of those with tips is easy $50. For that same price I can get a 5 man kit that will easily take 3-5 hours just to build and paint. That’s before including playing time and other aspects of the hobby that just playing the hobby enable(such as conversing on the forums, list building and strategy sessions, going to national events, etc.)
I wish they were less blatant about the phasing out of old marines, but at the end of the day it is what it is. I hope they fix the firstborn prices very soon but I am not gonna hold my breath.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/15 15:35:54
People who stopped buying GW but wont stop bitching about it are the vegans of warhammer
If that was the case you wouldn't be posting big blocks of Math Hammer to "prove" your various points.
We can analyse units/weapons and so on by reading the rules for them because we have had the experience of playing games and because sometimes comparisons are bleedingly obvious.
Daedalus81 wrote: BRB guys. Gonna go buy stock in straw and poles. The market is booming!
You really don't get Doobie's post. That's fine. Most of the newer folk don't.
I consistently maintain that math hammer is a tool and not a be all end all to how to approach the game, but I wouldn't expect people who make straw men all day long to actually try to understand someone else's position.
Renegades - 
