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This is an interesting point of discussion for myself, as I see Cawl as a heretic, so-called "Primaris" marines as heresy, and what I read about Cawl (reinforced on this short Community write-up) only confirms my suspicions that he is being mislead by the foul voices of Chaos!
So, rejoice in this simple poll - Hero or Heretic? You decide!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/25 20:06:24
Technically speaking he's 100% heretic. The man swore allegiance to Horus after all. Granted he was lying to avoid bolter related health problems but why let facts get in the way of a good witch hunt?
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
Considering that the Emperor has directly spoken to Cawl to tell him to keep doing what he's doing, and that he's said himself that he has no desire to be Fabricator-General (unlike the Cawl Inferior), he's definitely not a heretic. Obviously, I think he's done some shady things (xenotech and probably used traitor geneseed), but considering that the most 'holy' people in the Imperium are inadvertently reading Lorgar's scripture, I don't think it's a dealbreaker.
Heresy is in the eyes of the beholder.
Who's perspective should this be reviewed?
The inquisition itself cannot get this straight, the Puritan faction can be the most destructive force in the universe.
I think hero for these reasons:
- He has suffered for his work, he simply runs out of room and has to re-connect to stored memories to conduct his multiple "cells" of research. He contains the driven mind but is a fragmented psyche.
- He toiled for thousands of years to complete the great work of the Primaris creation as per what was close to the Emperor's last wish.
- He performed many of his tasks to bring back Guilliman under the watchful eye of Inquisitor Greyfax and St. Celestine and did not get executed. No small feat reading up on Greyfax (she was ready at any moment to take out Celestine).
- The Emperor spoke to him through another's memories long ago from a soul merging: "The Emperor explained to the future Cawl in the memory that it would be his responsibility to continue His work, and must continue to do so even on the day that Cawl came to believed that he had betrayed all that the Emperor stood for."
- It was stated he had data on "hundreds of xenos races that he helped drive to extinction.
- Cawl was authorised to utilise new technology and new configurations of ancient devices to refit Guilliman's flagship, the Macragge's Honour
The list kinda goes on.
He could have dealt a killing blow to the Empire but instead has supported it in the most pivotal times and locations imaginable.
A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte
pm713 wrote: Technically speaking he's 100% heretic. The man swore allegiance to Horus after all. Granted he was lying to avoid bolter related health problems but why let facts get in the way of a good witch hunt?
For which he was put on trial on Ryza, and found innocent.
Everyone in the imperium is a heretic in someone's eyes.
Hell, if the emperor himself came back and said "I'm not a god, do not worship me."....Well, you can try to image the resultant kerfuffle. But you probably couldn't even come close to what it'd actually be.
Cawl did what was needed to be done. He pledged loyalty to abbadon with his mechadendrites crossed behind his back. He apparently made a deal with a necron (Trazyn, I believe) to get the secret of activating the cadian pylons and closing the EoT forever. Not his fault abbadon pulled a spoiler move on that but he was going to do it anyway. Cawl's only possible fault was not starting a year or two earlier.
There was a 40krpg called "only war" in which one of the books was supposedly annoted by a woman in the guard anhd given to you, the reader, apparently after her death. One of the notes she made was about the umpteenth time something was refereed to as heresy. She wrote "What isn't?" next to it.
Yeah, that about sums it up. If people knew Guilleman burned monarchia because it was a city dedicated to worshiping the emperor as a god they'd call him a heretic.
The imperium couldnt survive without the admech, and they're ALL heretics.
"But the universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed..."
By which standards? By the standards of the current 40k setting the imperium should consider him a heretic and if RG wasn’t about I expect he would have been.
Cawl has worked with the Emperor directly, and has a mandate as old as the Imperium itself. Chaos influence? No chance - he is driven by science and is interested in the material.
Not a heretic.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/26 08:33:25
pm713 wrote: Technically speaking he's 100% heretic. The man swore allegiance to Horus after all. Granted he was lying to avoid bolter related health problems but why let facts get in the way of a good witch hunt?
For which he was put on trial on Ryza, and found innocent.
Image of the Cawl and the Ad Mech finding Cawl innocent. M42, colourised.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/26 08:42:12
Games Workshop Delenda Est.
Users on ignore- 53.
If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them.
pm713 wrote: Technically speaking he's 100% heretic. The man swore allegiance to Horus after all. Granted he was lying to avoid bolter related health problems but why let facts get in the way of a good witch hunt?
For which he was put on trial on Ryza, and found innocent.
Really? I didn't know that. Why Ryza? Seems very un-admech to do something sensible. I'd expect them to find out he technically said the words and immediately start shooting.
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
pm713 wrote: Technically speaking he's 100% heretic. The man swore allegiance to Horus after all. Granted he was lying to avoid bolter related health problems but why let facts get in the way of a good witch hunt?
For which he was put on trial on Ryza, and found innocent.
Really? I didn't know that. Why Ryza? Seems very un-admech to do something sensible. I'd expect them to find out he technically said the words and immediately start shooting.
He was heading there after leaving Trisolian - I assume it's the nearest major Forgeworld.
Spoiler:
The actuary-judicium was not much to look at, but held Cawl’s fate in its various mechanical pseudo-hands. It was a brain in a cylinder of faintly luminous fluid that rose up from the desk when activated, and slid back inside when its business was concluded. Nothing that possessed charisma, even in the odd reality of the Cult. Cawl had no idea if it lived in the office permanently, wedded to its job, or if it had access to some sort of chassis that could carry it about on other business. He had no idea, either, what sex it had once possessed. Such beings were so far past gender it hardly mattered, but he found himself fascinated by the question. During every session the actuary had with Cawl, Cawl speculated on the matter to stave off the worst of his boredom. There wasn’t much else he could do. They chained him to the chair in the interview room. He couldn’t even pace about. It didn’t take much to restrain him; he was mostly human, and only a couple of manacles were required to hold him in place.
Eight socket ports ringed the actuary’s upper assembly, where, under a smooth ring of metal that matched the desk top, various life-supporting machineries were concentrated. From seven of the ports long, banded, metal data tethers connected the actuary to a flock of servo-skulls that whooped and buzzed and darted about, staring at Cawl with cold, glass eyes and taking it in turns to probe at him on every wavelength. The eighth port was sealed over with a riveted cap that loudly proclaimed it inactive. This had been done for entirely obvious reasons – eight was an unpopular number after the Great Heresy War, it being held sacred by the apostates of the Dark Mechanicum. Any whiff of treachery was to be avoided. And that was precisely why Cawl was in so much trouble.
The actuary’s nerves hung from the stubby remains of its spinal column in rootlike profusion, each delicately linked to a golden wire. Disturbingly, despite its headlong desire to purge itself of all flesh, the actuary had opted to retain its startlingly green eyes, which floated in the suspension liquid, moored to the foreparts of the brain by carefully preserved optic nerves. Tiny ducted propellers had been attached to the bloodshot whites to enable the eyes to keep station and look about. It was an unsuccessful augmentation, for the eyes floated in the fluid not quite level with one another. Cawl found them completely repulsive to look at, but he did his best to keep his nerve and hold the actuary’s necessarily unblinking stare.
‘Subject 3199876,’ the actuary blared. A servo-skull fitted with a voxmitter spoke for it. The language processor was harsh and the speaker poorly modulated. Cawl’s cell was a silent space of white noise and EM waves intended to block every kind of data projection from the human voice to laser pulse. He would have found the actuary’s voice grating under normal circumstances, but after his lengthy, enforced meditations, it was unbearable. ‘Data has come to light regarding your claim of innocence.’ ‘It is not a claim,’ said Cawl irritably. ‘It is a fact.’ He tried hard to keep his eyes on the floating orbs in the tank, but their unevenness made it a task that bred headaches. ‘Do you recognise this individual?’ A servo-skull opened chromium-plated jaws. A compact hololithic projector emerged with a click, and sketched a poor quality light sculpt of a heavily augmented adept into the space between them. Cawl peered at it. ‘You do not recognise this individual?’ barked the actuary again. ‘He is a member of the Cult Destructor of the Myrmidonae.’ Cawl peered some more. ‘You do not recognise it.’ The actuary seemed almost disappointed. ‘Your case is suspended.’ ‘Wait! Give me a moment,’ said Cawl. ‘He looks familiar, but it’s hard to tell, because your projection matrix is very badly aligned if I’m completely honest, and the resolution is, quite frankly, as one adept to another, very low.’ The actuary squalled in irritation. ‘Do you recognise him or not?’ ‘Yes,’ said Cawl, and sat back. The manacles binding his wrists to either side of the chair clinked. ‘I do. I fought alongside him and his myrmidon clade on Trisolian A-4, in the agrifields, before Hester Aspertia Sigma-Sigma turned traitor and handed over control to the Warmaster. They saved me from the Night Lords. I repaired one of his followers.’ ‘Did you do so from gratitude, or was it a cloak for treachery?’ ‘I was doing my duty!’ Cawl’s jaw clenched so tightly it hurt. ‘We were fighting the traitors!’ The actuary emitted a pleased bleep. ‘Do you know his designation?’ ‘I…’ said Cawl. ‘No, I don’t. I’m sure he canted it to me, but I’ve had a few data purges since then, most of them at the hands of your careless staff.’ ‘They are investigatory exloads, not purges.’ ‘You should try telling that to your adepts,’ said Cawl. ‘My augment hurts. I didn’t even know that was possible.’ ‘Your memcore is non-standard. There have been difficulties.’ ‘Yes, well, but it did work. Now it does not.’ ‘Then you do not recall him.’ ‘Not digitally, no, but I remember him in the organic sense. Why? Is he a traitor too? Is this more evidence to damn me in the Adeptus Mechanicus’ eyes? I’ve told you before. I didn’t even know the war was over when we got here. I’m telling you the truth.’ ‘We took this image from your own memcore.’ ‘So why are you asking if I remembered him?’ Cawl said tetchily. All his meetings with the actuary tended to follow the same, maddeningly circuitous logic. ‘As part of the judicial processes against apostate members of the Cult Mechanicus, all data is being harvested and will be kept for all time. By the will of the Omnissiah, Motive Force and Machine-God, let it be. This individual was investigated. This individual was contacted regarding your supposed innocence.’‘And?’ said Cawl wearily, who wanted to get it all over with. ‘His name is Theodulus Pallisar. He is of Cult-Hierophant rank within the destructor brotherhoods.’ ‘That is his current rank?’ asked Cawl. ‘Yes,’ said the actuary smugly. ‘That is quite a high rank?’ hazarded Cawl. ‘Yes,’ said the actuary. ‘And… he is not a traitor?’ said Cawl. A servo-skull floated down close to Cawl’s face and looked him straight in the eye. ‘Far from it. He is, Belisarius Cawl, a war hero,’ it said. The skull’s innards flashed in time with its words. The servo-skull floated back up. A bank of machines behind the desk made a noisy clattering. ‘He vouched for you. Your story has been subjected to the ninth degree of inquisition. It holds up.’ The actuary took a pompous pause. ‘By the power vested in me by the ruling synod of Ryza, who in turn draw their authority from the most holy auspices of the Machine-God Himself, you are free to go.’
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/26 14:15:11
pm713 wrote: Technically speaking he's 100% heretic. The man swore allegiance to Horus after all. Granted he was lying to avoid bolter related health problems but why let facts get in the way of a good witch hunt?
For which he was put on trial on Ryza, and found innocent.
Really? I didn't know that. Why Ryza? Seems very un-admech to do something sensible. I'd expect them to find out he technically said the words and immediately start shooting.
He was heading there after leaving Trisolian - I assume it's the nearest major Forgeworld.
Spoiler:
The actuary-judicium was not much to look at, but held Cawl’s fate in its various mechanical pseudo-hands. It was a brain in a cylinder of faintly luminous fluid that rose up from the desk when activated, and slid back inside when its business was concluded. Nothing that possessed charisma, even in the odd reality of the Cult. Cawl had no idea if it lived in the office permanently, wedded to its job, or if it had access to some sort of chassis that could carry it about on other business. He had no idea, either, what sex it had once possessed. Such beings were so far past gender it hardly mattered, but he found himself fascinated by the question. During every session the actuary had with Cawl, Cawl speculated on the matter to stave off the worst of his boredom. There wasn’t much else he could do. They chained him to the chair in the interview room. He couldn’t even pace about. It didn’t take much to restrain him; he was mostly human, and only a couple of manacles were required to hold him in place.
Eight socket ports ringed the actuary’s upper assembly, where, under a smooth ring of metal that matched the desk top, various life-supporting machineries were concentrated. From seven of the ports long, banded, metal data tethers connected the actuary to a flock of servo-skulls that whooped and buzzed and darted about, staring at Cawl with cold, glass eyes and taking it in turns to probe at him on every wavelength. The eighth port was sealed over with a riveted cap that loudly proclaimed it inactive. This had been done for entirely obvious reasons – eight was an unpopular number after the Great Heresy War, it being held sacred by the apostates of the Dark Mechanicum. Any whiff of treachery was to be avoided. And that was precisely why Cawl was in so much trouble.
The actuary’s nerves hung from the stubby remains of its spinal column in rootlike profusion, each delicately linked to a golden wire. Disturbingly, despite its headlong desire to purge itself of all flesh, the actuary had opted to retain its startlingly green eyes, which floated in the suspension liquid, moored to the foreparts of the brain by carefully preserved optic nerves. Tiny ducted propellers had been attached to the bloodshot whites to enable the eyes to keep station and look about. It was an unsuccessful augmentation, for the eyes floated in the fluid not quite level with one another. Cawl found them completely repulsive to look at, but he did his best to keep his nerve and hold the actuary’s necessarily unblinking stare.
‘Subject 3199876,’ the actuary blared. A servo-skull fitted with a voxmitter spoke for it. The language processor was harsh and the speaker poorly modulated. Cawl’s cell was a silent space of white noise and EM waves intended to block every kind of data projection from the human voice to laser pulse. He would have found the actuary’s voice grating under normal circumstances, but after his lengthy, enforced meditations, it was unbearable. ‘Data has come to light regarding your claim of innocence.’ ‘It is not a claim,’ said Cawl irritably. ‘It is a fact.’ He tried hard to keep his eyes on the floating orbs in the tank, but their unevenness made it a task that bred headaches. ‘Do you recognise this individual?’ A servo-skull opened chromium-plated jaws. A compact hololithic projector emerged with a click, and sketched a poor quality light sculpt of a heavily augmented adept into the space between them. Cawl peered at it.
‘You do not recognise this individual?’ barked the actuary again. ‘He is a member of the Cult Destructor of the Myrmidonae.’
Cawl peered some more. ‘You do not recognise it.’ The actuary seemed almost disappointed. ‘Your case is suspended.’ ‘Wait! Give me a moment,’ said Cawl. ‘He looks familiar, but it’s hard to tell, because your projection matrix is very badly aligned if I’m completely honest, and the resolution is, quite frankly, as one adept to another, very low.’ The actuary squalled in irritation. ‘Do you recognise him or not?’ ‘Yes,’ said Cawl, and sat back. The manacles binding his wrists to either side of the chair clinked. ‘I do. I fought alongside him and his myrmidon clade on Trisolian A-4, in the agrifields, before Hester Aspertia Sigma-Sigma turned traitor and handed over control to the Warmaster. They saved me from the Night Lords. I repaired one of his followers.’ ‘Did you do so from gratitude, or was it a cloak for treachery?’ ‘I was doing my duty!’ Cawl’s jaw clenched so tightly it hurt. ‘We were fighting the traitors!’ The actuary emitted a pleased bleep. ‘Do you know his designation?’ ‘I…’ said Cawl. ‘No, I don’t. I’m sure he canted it to me, but I’ve had a few data purges since then, most of them at the hands of your careless staff.’ ‘They are investigatory exloads, not purges.’ ‘You should try telling that to your adepts,’ said Cawl. ‘My augment hurts. I didn’t even know that was possible.’ ‘Your memcore is non-standard. There have been difficulties.’ ‘Yes, well, but it did work. Now it does not.’ ‘Then you do not recall him.’ ‘Not digitally, no, but I remember him in the organic sense. Why? Is he a traitor too? Is this more evidence to damn me in the Adeptus Mechanicus’ eyes? I’ve told you before. I didn’t even know the war was over when we got here. I’m telling you the truth.’ ‘We took this image from your own memcore.’ ‘So why are you asking if I remembered him?’ Cawl said tetchily. All his meetings with the actuary tended to follow the same, maddeningly circuitous logic. ‘As part of the judicial processes against apostate members of the Cult Mechanicus, all data is being harvested and will be kept for all time. By the will of the Omnissiah, Motive Force and Machine-God, let it be. This individual was investigated. This individual was contacted regarding your supposed innocence.’‘And?’ said Cawl wearily, who wanted to get it all over with. ‘His name is Theodulus Pallisar. He is of Cult-Hierophant rank within the destructor brotherhoods.’ ‘That is his current rank?’ asked Cawl. ‘Yes,’ said the actuary smugly. ‘That is quite a high rank?’ hazarded Cawl. ‘Yes,’ said the actuary. ‘And… he is not a traitor?’ said Cawl. A servo-skull floated down close to Cawl’s face and looked him straight in the eye. ‘Far from it. He is, Belisarius Cawl, a war hero,’ it said. The skull’s innards flashed in time with its words. The servo-skull floated back up. A bank of machines behind the desk made a noisy clattering. ‘He vouched for you. Your story has been subjected to the ninth degree of inquisition. It holds up.’ The actuary took a pompous pause. ‘By the power vested in me by the ruling synod of Ryza, who in turn draw their authority from the most holy auspices of the Machine-God Himself, you are free to go.’
Well there you go. I thought he was specifically summoned somewhere for trial rather than just turning up there rather hence the confusion.
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
Easy: If Cawl's plans work, he is obviously executing the Emperor's will, if they fail or produce too much of a backlash, burn him at the stake.
It's not like the Imperium of Man is really built on the principles of it's own propaganda. Like every imperium, it lives and falls by who has the power to hold it up or bring it down.
I think the Adepts of Mars would have a really, really hard time pressing charges (or however you go about it).
Even if Cawl didn’t have Guilliman’s backing, you also have to take into account his efforts did not centre on his own power. The Primaris project was never about him having his own personal army.
Every study, invention, improvement have all (so far) been deployed for the betterment of the Imperium.
Anyone trying to persecute/prosecute him would also need to persuade the 1,000 Chapters that received sorely needed and highly effective reinforcements, not to mention any brothers that crossed the Rubicon Primaris.
How many Warzones have Cawl’s new and improved Space Marines saved? How many attacks utterly blunted my the superior Primaris doing battle with now weedier Renegades and Traitors? How many regiments of Astra Miltarum etc have remained in fighting shape as a result?
And to date we’re told not a single Primaris has turned. Not one. Despite near constant exposure to the forces and influence of Chaos.
Cawl is vindicated by his success.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
According to Emperor if he still alive Cawl is heresy, spat on Emperor’s best creators.. Now it’s Cawl’s best creators so Emperor’s soul are prison in golden thrones. Just like C’tan to Necron.
Cawl do not loyal to Chao, loyal to human but more machines than mankind’s.
I’ll bet you that if Cawl found Necron immortal technology, he would use it on himself.
Solidcrash wrote: According to Emperor if he still alive Cawl is heresy, spat on Emperor’s best creators.. Now it’s Cawl’s best creators so Emperor’s soul are prison in golden thrones. Just like C’tan to Necron.
Cawl do not loyal to Chao, loyal to human but more machines than mankind’s.
I’ll bet you that if Cawl found Necron immortal technology, he would use it on himself.
.... say what?
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Solidcrash wrote: According to Emperor if he still alive Cawl is heresy, spat on Emperor’s best creators.. Now it’s Cawl’s best creators so Emperor’s soul are prison in golden thrones. Just like C’tan to Necron.
Cawl do not loyal to Chao, loyal to human but more machines than mankind’s.
I’ll bet you that if Cawl found Necron immortal technology, he would use it on himself.
Ishagu wrote: Cawl has worked with the Emperor directly, and has a mandate as old as the Imperium itself. Chaos influence? No chance - he is driven by science and is interested in the material.
Not a heretic.
Driven by science? Tzeentch would like to know your location.
Cawl is a force for good in the galaxy, but he is also absolutely a heretic. His push for innovation and progress spits in the face of the Imperium's dogma - he's a heretic, but let's just say that the Imperium could use some Change if it's ever going to improve.
