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I fail to see how the fact that your army is bad at generating CP, should make me happy about the new CP system. Or not worry tha the CP are going to be short. For all we know GW could of course do -1CP to each stratagems, but even after the last PA I have my doubts about GW and buffing.

You use 6-9 CP pre game, and this gives you good relics, upgrades etc. My army needs stratagems every turn to function. Imagine your MW jetbikes had to use a 2-3CP stratagem to do MW, or otherwise they would be doing shuriken shots.

My bikes needs 3CP a turn or they die...

We still don't know how much (if any) CP you can gain during the course of the game in the Command Phase.

That being said, I bet there is a decent chance that units that need X CP to be effective/survive may be more cost effective in the future. Knowing how much CP armies have to play with, I doubt GW will assign revised points values assuming you have more CP than is reasonable. Time will tell.

So, assuming just 1cp generated per round, with only 4 rounds, which is probably a reasonable floor for CP. That gives you 16CP over a 2k game.

I think that's an increase in CP for a very large fraction of armies out there given it's at least 1 more than you'd get with a brigade.

Presumably these CP-vacuum CSM lists are running brigade+battalion, or 3x battalion, for folks to be seeing this as a massive decrease or constraint over the current system?

[If you start with 12, generate 1 CP a round in the command phase, and recover one CP a round when you spend them, over the course of five rounds you are going to have 22 CP. I do not get what you guys are whining about, just for showing up you'll get the CP that used to require double battalion or a brigade. To top that off you'll be playing at smaller scales, which require less CP.

Dakka will literally whine about anything, "How dare you give me list building option and a ton of CP, I like the crappy way it's done now, why does it have to change".

Karol wrote:
I fail to see how the fact that your army is bad at generating CP, should make me happy about the new CP system. Or not worry tha the CP are going to be short. For all we know GW could of course do -1CP to each stratagems, but even after the last PA I have my doubts about GW and buffing.

You use 6-9 CP pre game, and this gives you good relics, upgrades etc. My army needs stratagems every turn to function. Imagine your MW jetbikes had to use a 2-3CP stratagem to do MW, or otherwise they would be doing shuriken shots.

Dude... really ? GK are solid post PA and certainly are no longer bottom tier.
Your army has a power that generates 1 Cp every turn.. So in reality you get extra 4 cp in a 5 turn game.

Thats like anyone saying they cant use the most OP start every phase so it all sucks..

I’m wondering if battalions and brigades giving you extra CP each turn would be the best use for their 8th mechanic.

Karol wrote:
I fail to see how the fact that your army is bad at generating CP, should make me happy about the new CP system. Or not worry tha the CP are going to be short. For all we know GW could of course do -1CP to each stratagems, but even after the last PA I have my doubts about GW and buffing.

You use 6-9 CP pre game, and this gives you good relics, upgrades etc. My army needs stratagems every turn to function. Imagine your MW jetbikes had to use a 2-3CP stratagem to do MW, or otherwise they would be doing shuriken shots.

ridiculous strategem pileup should not be the answer to balancing a unit. A bad unit shouldn't be made good through giving them the ability to mega combo for 6 cp once in a game. It makes it very difficult to balance this unit at all.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
My bikes needs 3CP a turn or they die...

*looks at your sig* Ah, so, Harli bikes.

The fact that you need 3 CPs a turn to keep your bikes alive tells me two things:

1. It's not a problem with CPs or CP generation, it's a problem with the bike rules.
2. Things are far too "killy" in 8th Ed. Everything is so lethal, and high RoF, mid-strength mid-to-high damage weapons are too prevalent.

More things need to case D1 rather than D2, D3 or Dd3. 6+ To Wound needs to be more prevalent (S5 shouldn't wound T9 on a 5+).

Bitharne wrote:
I’m wondering if battalions and brigades giving you extra CP each turn would be the best use for their 8th mechanic.

This assumes that such things still exist. Plus GW seem to be divorcing detachments from CPs (which is a good thing).

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
My bikes needs 3CP a turn or they die...

*looks at your sig* Ah, so, Harli bikes.

The fact that you need 3 CPs a turn to keep your bikes alive tells me two things:

1. It's not a problem with CPs or CP generation, it's a problem with the bike rules.
2. Things are far too "killy" in 8th Ed. Everything is so lethal, and high RoF, mid-strength mid-to-high damage weapons are too prevalent.

More things need to case D1 rather than D2, D3 or Dd3. 6+ To Wound needs to be more prevalent (S5 shouldn't wound T9 on a 5+).

Bitharne wrote:
I’m wondering if battalions and brigades giving you extra CP each turn would be the best use for their 8th mechanic.

This assumes that such things still exist. Plus GW seem to be divorcing detachments from CPs (which is a good thing).

Yes 8th is way to killy. The problem is every one and their freaking moms has either multi D weapons and/or massive rerolls, -1/4++ only goes so far. Remember they are only T4 too.

Sure maybe they are the problem, I always said they needed either T5 or 4w, b.c when GW updated the bikes, almost every bike got double the wounds (Reavers, Skyrunners, shining spears, attack bikes, etc..) all double their wounds. But 4w vs 3w isn't going to help vs 2D weapons.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

stratigo wrote:

Karol wrote:
I fail to see how the fact that your army is bad at generating CP, should make me happy about the new CP system. Or not worry tha the CP are going to be short. For all we know GW could of course do -1CP to each stratagems, but even after the last PA I have my doubts about GW and buffing.

You use 6-9 CP pre game, and this gives you good relics, upgrades etc. My army needs stratagems every turn to function. Imagine your MW jetbikes had to use a 2-3CP stratagem to do MW, or otherwise they would be doing shuriken shots.

ridiculous strategem pileup should not be the answer to balancing a unit. A bad unit shouldn't be made good through giving them the ability to mega combo for 6 cp once in a game. It makes it very difficult to balance this unit at all.

I fully agree, i was just showing that other armies are in the same boat. But i personally hope stratagems are seen less often and over off damage of the game is at least 25% less.

It's very interesting concept.

The current iteration (well, I guess the previous as well) allows for slapping CP cost in addition to the point cost to certain powerful "unique" models. Consider special characters with powerful Buff Auras: Slap CP price on the model and suddenly having the buff aura with real CP cost reduces your potential for other combo wombos.

This same way could also find the right balance for FW models, which usually have been overpriced to oblivion, mostly. Put a CP cost there, and find the right balance between stats&abilities and point cost. So the unit is allowed to be good, but then reduces your potential for other combos through CP use.

I'm a little doubtful whether they will take this approach, but I keep my fingers crossed.

Ghorgul wrote:
It's very interesting concept.

The current iteration (well, I guess the previous as well) allows for slapping CP cost in addition to the point cost to certain powerful "unique" models. Consider special characters with powerful Buff Auras: Slap CP price on the model and suddenly having the buff aura with real CP cost reduces your potential for other combo wombos.

This same way could also find the right balance for FW models, which usually have been overpriced to oblivion, mostly. Put a CP cost there, and find the right balance between stats&abilities and point cost. So the unit is allowed to be good, but then reduces your potential for other combos through CP use.

I'm a little doubtful whether they will take this approach, but I keep my fingers crossed.

I'd gladly pay cp to get some of the old Legacies of Ruin back for my fellblade. Particularly the ones that gave it "preferred enemy space marines".

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Spoiler:

Ghorgul wrote:
It's very interesting concept.

The current iteration (well, I guess the previous as well) allows for slapping CP cost in addition to the point cost to certain powerful "unique" models. Consider special characters with powerful Buff Auras: Slap CP price on the model and suddenly having the buff aura with real CP cost reduces your potential for other combo wombos.

This same way could also find the right balance for FW models, which usually have been overpriced to oblivion, mostly. Put a CP cost there, and find the right balance between stats&abilities and point cost. So the unit is allowed to be good, but then reduces your potential for other combos through CP use.

I'm a little doubtful whether they will take this approach, but I keep my fingers crossed.

I'd gladly pay cp to get some of the old Legacies of Ruin back for my fellblade. Particularly the ones that gave it "preferred enemy space marines".

I'd gladly pay CP just for my FW too be pointed fairly and not feel like I'm hamstringing myself when I want to play with my cool stuff.
Is quietly glad he doesn't have a falchion and Acrastus class Knight sitting on shelf.

We had malefic lords OK that was a do but also pre Rule of three which would have still been broke but not as spamable.

Outside of Marines which to be fair even the ubiquitous leviathan wasn't exactly broken untill codex 2.0 and that's just a hot broken mess of its own making.

Well, I guess compared to a falchion or acrastus my fellblade is cheap, a whole 100 points cheaper than the falchion. Yeah points is the number one thing I was hoping they'd fix. Surely they won't raise those prices.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Well, I guess compared to a falchion or acrastus my fellblade is cheap, a whole 100 points cheaper than the falchion. Yeah points is the number one thing I was hoping they'd fix. Surely they won't raise those prices.

Sadly I wouldn't count on it as Knight's already got a V1 update and all that did was strip away all the special rules, make statlines worse and keep them all the same point's.

Ice_can wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Spoiler:

Ghorgul wrote:
It's very interesting concept.

The current iteration (well, I guess the previous as well) allows for slapping CP cost in addition to the point cost to certain powerful "unique" models. Consider special characters with powerful Buff Auras: Slap CP price on the model and suddenly having the buff aura with real CP cost reduces your potential for other combo wombos.

This same way could also find the right balance for FW models, which usually have been overpriced to oblivion, mostly. Put a CP cost there, and find the right balance between stats&abilities and point cost. So the unit is allowed to be good, but then reduces your potential for other combos through CP use.

I'm a little doubtful whether they will take this approach, but I keep my fingers crossed.

I'd gladly pay cp to get some of the old Legacies of Ruin back for my fellblade. Particularly the ones that gave it "preferred enemy space marines".

I'd gladly pay CP just for my FW too be pointed fairly and not feel like I'm hamstringing myself when I want to play with my cool stuff.
Is quietly glad he doesn't have a falchion and Acrastus class Knight sitting on shelf.

We had malefic lords OK that was a do but also pre Rule of three which would have still been broke but not as spamable.

Outside of Marines which to be fair even the ubiquitous leviathan wasn't exactly broken untill codex 2.0 and that's just a hot broken mess of its own making.

You know, funny how the IG psyker is a better malefic lord and still around 40 pts right...
So how broken was it really.

I tend to play 1500 point games with Chaos Daemons. The change to CP kills of some of the available builds. 6CP just isn't enough to make Khorne Daemons functional. The only thing that made them work was deep striking and rolling 3d6+1" to charge. Without that they are stuck with 8" movement cavalry, and 10" movement beasts. They are dead in the water. Now I can shelve 1/4 of my codex. 9th edition may provide other benefits, but I am highly skeptical.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Spoiler:

Ice_can wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Ghorgul wrote:
It's very interesting concept.

The current iteration (well, I guess the previous as well) allows for slapping CP cost in addition to the point cost to certain powerful "unique" models. Consider special characters with powerful Buff Auras: Slap CP price on the model and suddenly having the buff aura with real CP cost reduces your potential for other combo wombos.

This same way could also find the right balance for FW models, which usually have been overpriced to oblivion, mostly. Put a CP cost there, and find the right balance between stats&abilities and point cost. So the unit is allowed to be good, but then reduces your potential for other combos through CP use.

I'm a little doubtful whether they will take this approach, but I keep my fingers crossed.

I'd gladly pay cp to get some of the old Legacies of Ruin back for my fellblade. Particularly the ones that gave it "preferred enemy space marines".

I'd gladly pay CP just for my FW too be pointed fairly and not feel like I'm hamstringing myself when I want to play with my cool stuff.
Is quietly glad he doesn't have a falchion and Acrastus class Knight sitting on shelf.

We had malefic lords OK that was a do but also pre Rule of three which would have still been broke but not as spamable.

Outside of Marines which to be fair even the ubiquitous leviathan wasn't exactly broken untill codex 2.0 and that's just a hot broken mess of its own making.

You know, funny how the IG psyker is a better malefic lord and still around 40 pts right...
So how broken was it really.

Never played against ML spam so not 100% sure on how it when down it sounded super nasty though, talking serious MW dumped on the opponent.
Ironically GW are going that way anyway with almost everything getting MW instead of just causes a wound to that unit. New Admech and Demons rules.

But yeah IG tend to be pretty consistent with their 1 for psychic barrier and nightshroud all the time.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Spoiler:

Ghorgul wrote:
It's very interesting concept.

The current iteration (well, I guess the previous as well) allows for slapping CP cost in addition to the point cost to certain powerful "unique" models. Consider special characters with powerful Buff Auras: Slap CP price on the model and suddenly having the buff aura with real CP cost reduces your potential for other combo wombos.

This same way could also find the right balance for FW models, which usually have been overpriced to oblivion, mostly. Put a CP cost there, and find the right balance between stats&abilities and point cost. So the unit is allowed to be good, but then reduces your potential for other combos through CP use.

I'm a little doubtful whether they will take this approach, but I keep my fingers crossed.

I'd gladly pay cp to get some of the old Legacies of Ruin back for my fellblade. Particularly the ones that gave it "preferred enemy space marines".

I'd gladly pay CP just for my FW too be pointed fairly and not feel like I'm hamstringing myself when I want to play with my cool stuff.
Is quietly glad he doesn't have a falchion and Acrastus class Knight sitting on shelf.

We had malefic lords OK that was a do but also pre Rule of three which would have still been broke but not as spamable.

Outside of Marines which to be fair even the ubiquitous leviathan wasn't exactly broken untill codex 2.0 and that's just a hot broken mess of its own making.

You know, funny how the IG psyker is a better malefic lord and still around 40 pts right...
So how broken was it really.

They don't become mini DP's tho....

The problem was people played with 9 of them, fishing for perils, and turning into monsters along with smite spam.

"If this model suffers Perils of the Warp and survives, immediately increase its WS to 2+, its Strength to 8 and its attacks to 5. Also, adjust the AP and Damage of its Bare hands to -2 and 2 Respectively"

This was on a T, 4w 4++ 40pt character.

So yes it "was" broken AF. Now with Ro3 and traits/strats all over, he could go down to 40pts again.

Actually that isn't how it works, you first had to Survive the perrils.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Actually that isn't how it works, you first had to Survive the perrils.

With D3 MW's on a 4 wound character, that is easy. Dont forget it was before Ro3, so you had lots of them.

Still doesn't change the fact that the malefic is a worse IG psyker for double the points.

Not to mention that i seriously doubt that even if he stayed at 40 pts would be an issue nowadays, considering the rest of the faction he is stuck in is approximately overpriced by 25 % accross the board and general power has spiked massively.

Also Ro3 in that case was a good thing

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Actually that isn't how it works, you first had to Survive the perrils.

With D3 MW's on a 4 wound character, that is easy. Dont forget it was before Ro3, so you had lots of them.

Sounds more like the issue wasn't so much the model and ability it was the ability to go absolutely ham all in on having 10-15 of them, but that's still true for multiple units now post RO3

Ice_can wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Actually that isn't how it works, you first had to Survive the perrils.

With D3 MW's on a 4 wound character, that is easy. Dont forget it was before Ro3, so you had lots of them.

Sounds more like the issue wasn't so much the model and ability it was the ability to go absolutely ham all in on having 10-15 of them, but that's still true for multiple units now post RO3

Right, thats why it double in points. But then Ro3 came out and they never went back down. B.c its a FW unit is most likely why it never went back down. Maybe in 9th it'll be updated.

But he was asking If it was that bad to nerf them back then, and the answer was yes, back then they were OP when you could take 400pts of them at 40pts.

you could do the same though with ig, the only thing that you couldn't do was spam brimstones.
which also got nerfed, so what was really the problem

Not Online!!! wrote:
you could do the same though with ig, the only thing that you couldn't do was spam brimstones.
which also got nerfed, so what was really the problem

B.c they both got nerf, they both where problems, the question was, "Was it really a problem to nerf them" and when they got nerf the answer was "yes".

Idk why we are even still talking about this lol. Are you scared 9th will start the same or something?

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
you could do the same though with ig, the only thing that you couldn't do was spam brimstones.
which also got nerfed, so what was really the problem

B.c they both got nerf, they both where problems, the question was, "Was it really a problem to nerf them" and when they got nerf the answer was "yes".

Idk why we are even still talking about this lol. Are you scared 9th will start the same or something?

yeah because i'd rather avoid having my R&H sit out another edition

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
you could do the same though with ig, the only thing that you couldn't do was spam brimstones.
which also got nerfed, so what was really the problem

B.c they both got nerf, they both where problems, the question was, "Was it really a problem to nerf them" and when they got nerf the answer was "yes".

Idk why we are even still talking about this lol. Are you scared 9th will start the same or something?

yeah because i'd rather avoid having my R&H sit out another edition

And i like to have my Corsairs back. At least you kept 90% of your units i lost 90% of mine.

Yes, I fully support non-power armor factions like corsairs. Trade you a corsair for a space wolf.

Its just FW was crap all of 8th, our only hope is that the GW team fix FW for Index 2.0