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Select Unit, Select Target, Apply Stratagem. Roll CP Regen (Possibly) Apply Modifiers.

Roll #1: To Hit
Roll #2: Re-roll To Hit
Roll #3: To Wound
Roll #4: Re-roll To Wound
Roll #5: To Save
Roll #6: Re-Roll To Save
Roll #7: Damage
Roll #8: Re-roll Damage
Roll #9: Extraneous Ability (Feel No Pain style Mechanics)
Roll #10: Re-Roll Extraneous Ability


So, this is actually pretty silly when you think about ti. You've got potentially 14 things that need to be done, most of them with random die rolls to determine the outcome of ONE action via a unit. People like to talk about how slow the game is, well this bloat is the reason why and I'm shocked that I hadn't picked up on it before until I sat down and counted up all the actions. There is just too much access to re-rolls in the game, making the dice much more easy to manipulate into have a better outcome. Some of this clearly could be cut, things like random damage for example. Just switch every gun to fixed damage.

Also, I just realized, Roll # of shots/Re-roll # of shots should be at the top of the list too, making this potentially 16 things! That's insane!

So you've listed 10 things (though used number 3 twice to make it look like 9 things) then added two in the blurb.

That's not 14 or 16. It's 12.

#2, the second #3, #5, #7 and #9, plus one of the mentions in the blurb only happen if the first roll fails, which means the odds of having to do all 12 are super, super rare. Average is 2-3 rerolls and you've mentioned six!

Also, 9th could end up changing some of this- we just don't know yet.

You are right it's technically possible in the current edition though. Can't argue that.

I'm happy to remove re-rolls from the game. Before quarantine I played some games of 2nd Ed. again, and the lack of rerolls was both shocking and refreshing. If you missed, you missed, and that was that.

Calling this 14 things is rather hyperbolic. It's patently obvious that you have to pick a unit and a target of the attack, so those hardly count. It 's not like you expect to random roll dice and have models randomly removed from the board.

Listing To-Hit, To-Wound, Armor Save, Damage, and FNP-Style rolls twice because their might be a re-roll is also stretching the number out purely to elicit outrage.

So really, there are 3 must dos after selecting the unit and target. Well, after selecting the unit, the weapon, the target, making sure the target is in range and in LOS. To-Hit, To-Wound, and Armor Save. Most weapons have flat damage, so you often don't roll damage. Most models don't have a way to avoid losing wounds after their Armor Save. Sometimes you will be able to re-roll some of those rolls, but not that often beyond To-Hit rolls (and usually only rolls of 1).

Still, nice try to make the game seem more time consuming than it really is

What about exploding hits rolls/exploding hits rerolls? Resolving extra-effects-on-6-to-wound mechanics? Guns with more random stats other than just shots/damage?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 alextroy wrote:
...Listing To-Hit, To-Wound, Armor Save, Damage, and FNP-Style rolls twice because their might be a re-roll is also stretching the number out purely to elicit outrage...

I think it's fair to list hit rolls/wound rolls twice since there are passive auras that let you blanket reroll all of them, but while it's technically possible to CP-reroll one of the other three it's probably not common enough to bother with.

This list is only marginally valid if both sides are playing loyalist marines. No other faction gets that many rerolls.

 Insectum7 wrote:
I'm happy to remove re-rolls from the game. Before quarantine I played some games of 2nd Ed. again, and the lack of rerolls was both shocking and refreshing. If you missed, you missed, and that was that.

Yes. I hope that rerolls will be limited in the new edition

PenitentJake wrote:
So you've listed 10 things (though used number 3 twice to make it look like 9 things) then added two in the blurb.

That's not 14 or 16. It's 12.

#2, the second #3, #5, #7 and #9, plus one of the mentions in the blurb only happen if the first roll fails, which means the odds of having to do all 12 are super, super rare. Average is 2-3 rerolls and you've mentioned six!

Also, 9th could end up changing some of this- we just don't know yet.

You are right it's technically possible in the current edition though. Can't argue that.

I am including select unit, select target, spend CP, reroll CP and Role to Recoop CP in this list. All of these happen in that order.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
This list is only marginally valid if both sides are playing loyalist marines. No other faction gets that many rerolls.

Which is part of the problem. I'd vote (if given the choice) for NO re rolls of any kind, especially not to save.

 Togusa wrote:
Also, I just realized, Roll # of shots/Re-roll # of shots should be at the top of the list too, making this potentially 16 things! That's insane!

Don't forget exploding attacks, and saves against add-on damage (i.e. if you roll 6 to wound the target also takes 1 mortal wound), and someone could bodyguard that hit ...

As a long time wargamer, and a hobbyist game designer...I fething loathe re-rolls. Do I mind one or two in a game? Sure. Special ability for your character to set you apart? Okay. GW has a history of leaning VERY heavily into this, and I cannot fething stand it.

It's not about time for me, it's about the notion that a re-roll...removes all the drama of the actual dice roll. In 40K, particularly 8th edition it leads to ruining moments that should be a big deal.

Did you roll a '6' to explode while in a crazy location, will this massive explosion change the face of the entir- "I'm gonna re-roll it."...oh...okay. Did you roll double '6's for a Knight to explode!? Wow, you could almo- "I'm gonna re-roll one of them...". Oh. It diminishes the importance of a unit's actual statistic and just adds a layer of lazy onto everything.

It's like the fun police of dice rolls. Now you could argue that perhaps you view it in the other direction...maybe you fail something and re-roll to get it, but that's almost more annoying. If you have a 2+ ability to do something and roll a '1'...that should be the exciting, game changing moment. But we know that rolling two '1's in a row is a microscopic chance, so we lose the excitement of that failure. Take a squad for example, with a 2+ to hit...and it's at a game critical moment. You have eight attacks, needing 3+. In a fluke dice roll you fail 6/8 of those rolls. Well that's a pretty crazy moment and now the game might change. But allowing a re-roll to that removes so much risk and interest, it just smooths over any outlying chances into boredom.

Now to the mathhammer/competitive crowd, a re-roll is nothing more than a change to an Excel spreadsheet box, and is simply a mathematical machination to be calculated. For the players who are playing the game for enjoyment and story, it's a literal mathhammer...that is squashing all of the cool moments - the ones you feared when originally reading the rulebook. I remember thinking "Oh man, vehicles blow up! Psykers can explode!" etc. How much of that actively happened in 8th edition? Hardly any, unless a wounded vehicle was off in the distance and the player didn't care about it. Any of these instances were squashed immediately with re-roll stratagems.

To me, re-rolling something in a game is about the most boring/lazy/uninspiring thing you can do.

it strikes me that re-rolls and Mortal Wounds are very similar from a design perspective.

They're a straightforward and easy to grasp special rule that allows you to represent a wide range of abilities.

if you broke down special rules into the mechanics they use, there aren't a lot of options if they relate to dice:

Modifiers (+/-) to rolls
Re-rolls
Extra rolls
Roll X number of dice and Pick Y

And as GW loves to feed the community's need for special rules on every unit to show how unique they are compared to others, liberally using the limited range of options is what they do.


I am a big fan of minimalist game design, in that it should only take a single special rule to reflect the uniqueness of a unit, rather than the 3+ some units have.

But this is all part of the spectacle of GW's miniatures, their rules are evocative and cool conceptually. and they also have so many units that they have to keep finding ways to distinguish them from one another.

 Togusa wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:
So you've listed 10 things (though used number 3 twice to make it look like 9 things) then added two in the blurb.

That's not 14 or 16. It's 12.

#2, the second #3, #5, #7 and #9, plus one of the mentions in the blurb only happen if the first roll fails, which means the odds of having to do all 12 are super, super rare. Average is 2-3 rerolls and you've mentioned six!

Also, 9th could end up changing some of this- we just don't know yet.

You are right it's technically possible in the current edition though. Can't argue that.

I am including select unit, select target, spend CP, reroll CP and Role to Recoop CP in this list. All of these happen in that order.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
This list is only marginally valid if both sides are playing loyalist marines. No other faction gets that many rerolls.

Which is part of the problem. I'd vote (if given the choice) for NO re rolls of any kind, especially not to save.

What attack sequence could possibly occur without selecting a unit to fire? Or a target? Spending CP and reroll CP aren't seperate steps unless you're doing two seperate stratagems, which is not at all a part of the actual attack sequence, and the vast majority of Armies can't recoop CP at all and even the ones that do don't run it that often since the nerfs.

This is like saying X-Wing is a gak game because you have to turn your dial to the left, and then turn your dial to left, and then turn your dial to the left, then select the correct movement for what you want to do, then set the dial down, then turn slightly, then extend your arm, then move your arm into a position near your template, then lower your hand to the template, then make contact with the correct template, then grasp the correct template, then move the template in front of the ship, etc, etc, Thusly the Attack Sequence in X-wing is 190 steps so the game must be bad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elbows wrote:
As a long time wargamer, and a hobbyist game designer...I fething loathe re-rolls. Do I mind one or two in a game? Sure. Special ability for your character to set you apart? Okay. GW has a history of leaning VERY heavily into this, and I cannot fething stand it.

It's not about time for me, it's about the notion that a re-roll...removes all the drama of the actual dice roll. In 40K, particularly 8th edition it leads to ruining moments that should be a big deal.

Did you roll a '6' to explode while in a crazy location, will this massive explosion change the face of the entir- "I'm gonna re-roll it."...oh...okay. Did you roll double '6's for a Knight to explode!? Wow, you could almo- "I'm gonna re-roll one of them...". Oh. It diminishes the importance of a unit's actual statistic and just adds a layer of lazy onto everything.

It's like the fun police of dice rolls. Now you could argue that perhaps you view it in the other direction...maybe you fail something and re-roll to get it, but that's almost more annoying. If you have a 2+ ability to do something and roll a '1'...that should be the exciting, game changing moment. But we know that rolling two '1's in a row is a microscopic chance, so we lose the excitement of that failure. Take a squad for example, with a 2+ to hit...and it's at a game critical moment. You have eight attacks, needing 3+. In a fluke dice roll you fail 6/8 of those rolls. Well that's a pretty crazy moment and now the game might change. But allowing a re-roll to that removes so much risk and interest, it just smooths over any outlying chances into boredom.

Now to the mathhammer/competitive crowd, a re-roll is nothing more than a change to an Excel spreadsheet box, and is simply a mathematical machination to be calculated. For the players who are playing the game for enjoyment and story, it's a literal mathhammer...that is squashing all of the cool moments - the ones you feared when originally reading the rulebook. I remember thinking "Oh man, vehicles blow up! Psykers can explode!" etc. How much of that actively happened in 8th edition? Hardly any, unless a wounded vehicle was off in the distance and the player didn't care about it. Any of these instances were squashed immediately with re-roll stratagems.

To me, re-rolling something in a game is about the most boring/lazy/uninspiring thing you can do.

Your only looking at the positive side of the coin. The negative is there too. With no rerolls or other ways to increase your odds, it means the game becomes even less about player ability than it already is.

What is really dramatic and exciting to one player is stupid RNG bullgak to another. It's like slot machines. Some people love slot machines because of the drama of pulling the lever and having money pour out, I personally HATE slot machines and view them as being about as fun as throwing money down a toilet. There's no agency there. It's why I prefer blackjack; it's still ultimately up to the luck of the draw if you win or not, but there are things you do to improve your odds.

Also, in your example, there's only drama in those specific rolls. You're completely ignoring the 2.5 hours BEFORE that roll where one guy averaged about 2.2 across all of his rolls because it just happened that his luck was that crappy that day. Didn't matter that he had played better, positioned better, planned better, he had a legitimate string of low rolls so there was nothing he could do. Or the 45 minutes after that 6 gets rolled on an explosion and wipes out a quarter of your army where you've already lost but you just chug along because you lost enough of your army to know you're gonna lose but not so much that you wouldn't look like a dick for asking for a rerack.

That knight blowing up and killing half your army is dramatic in the moment, but 99% of the people here would just end up posting about it 2 months later as a codifying example of why 40k is poorly designed game.

Community need for special rules ... I don’t recall asking for those.

 alextroy wrote:
Calling this 14 things is rather hyperbolic. It's patently obvious that you have to pick a unit and a target of the attack, so those hardly count. It 's not like you expect to random roll dice and have models randomly removed from the board.

Listing To-Hit, To-Wound, Armor Save, Damage, and FNP-Style rolls twice because their might be a re-roll is also stretching the number out purely to elicit outrage.

So really, there are 3 must dos after selecting the unit and target. Well, after selecting the unit, the weapon, the target, making sure the target is in range and in LOS. To-Hit, To-Wound, and Armor Save. Most weapons have flat damage, so you often don't roll damage. Most models don't have a way to avoid losing wounds after their Armor Save. Sometimes you will be able to re-roll some of those rolls, but not that often beyond To-Hit rolls (and usually only rolls of 1).

Still, nice try to make the game seem more time consuming than it really is

Guess reading comprehension isn't your strong point since OP says clearly POSSIBLE.

Yes it's possible to have less. It's also possible to have all this. If you spent more than 5 sec reading OP you would have seen it

 alextroy wrote:
Calling this 14 things is rather hyperbolic. It's patently obvious that you have to pick a unit and a target of the attack, so those hardly count. It 's not like you expect to random roll dice and have models randomly removed from the board.

Listing To-Hit, To-Wound, Armor Save, Damage, and FNP-Style rolls twice because their might be a re-roll is also stretching the number out purely to elicit outrage.

So really, there are 3 must dos after selecting the unit and target. Well, after selecting the unit, the weapon, the target, making sure the target is in range and in LOS. To-Hit, To-Wound, and Armor Save. Most weapons have flat damage, so you often don't roll damage. Most models don't have a way to avoid losing wounds after their Armor Save. Sometimes you will be able to re-roll some of those rolls, but not that often beyond To-Hit rolls (and usually only rolls of 1).

Still, nice try to make the game seem more time consuming than it really is

Listing the rerolls is perfectly valid because they DO come into play and CAN add to the length of the action. Did you read my post at all? I said this is POSSIBLE. I didn't say it's true 100% of the time. I also didn't say that each part adds 'X" amount of time. It might only take 1 second to choose a target for your attack. That's fine. It's when you add it all up and then multiply this action by 10-15 per turn for 1-7 turns (Potentially) that it starts to become a problem.

Also, I'm not interested in outrage. I'm simply interested in discussing how to shorten this issue, chiefly by removing rerolls from the game.

My average game time is 2 hours and 20 minutes, and we rarely make it beyond the third turn (about 43% of the time). I don't know about you, but that's a long time for a game that could be played in under two hours.

ERJAK,

You're assuming that you're limited to the way GW writes rules (read: relatively poorly). There are hundreds of mechanics that can reward player's actual strategic/tactical/gaming skills...re-rolling is simply the laziest and most boring version of such. Relying heavily on stuff like re-rolls, you may as well speed up the game and remove the rules that happen on rare dice rolls altogether - it's wasted paper/pages in the rulebook if it never actually happens in the game. I made no argument that 40K was a good rule set from the outset, just that it's a mediocre one...hindered even more by the lazy use of re-rolls.

 alextroy wrote:
Calling this 14 things is rather hyperbolic. It's patently obvious that you have to pick a unit and a target of the attack, so those hardly count. It 's not like you expect to random roll dice and have models randomly removed from the board.

Listing To-Hit, To-Wound, Armor Save, Damage, and FNP-Style rolls twice because their might be a re-roll is also stretching the number out purely to elicit outrage.

So really, there are 3 must dos after selecting the unit and target. Well, after selecting the unit, the weapon, the target, making sure the target is in range and in LOS. To-Hit, To-Wound, and Armor Save. Most weapons have flat damage, so you often don't roll damage. Most models don't have a way to avoid losing wounds after their Armor Save. Sometimes you will be able to re-roll some of those rolls, but not that often beyond To-Hit rolls (and usually only rolls of 1).

Still, nice try to make the game seem more time consuming than it really is

But it is not stretching. If the most played army is marines, and it has access and its both known for its access to multiple types of re-rolls, then re-rolls are are a part of the game that people see a lot.

And this is just general stuff. Imagine playing vs tau with their shields, or a psychic heavy army like GK or 1ksons, a ton of dice rolling is done that doesn't add much to the game, besides those gatcha moments when you fail a roll, and then a CP bought re-rolls for an important psychic power roll .

As 8e codexes will be compatible with 9e rules... I don't see re-rolls going away anytime soon.

But yeah, I hope they'll be severely reduced in 10e.

 Elbows wrote:
As a long time wargamer, and a hobbyist game designer...I fething loathe re-rolls. Do I mind one or two in a game? Sure. Special ability for your character to set you apart? Okay. GW has a history of leaning VERY heavily into this, and I cannot fething stand it.

It's not about time for me, it's about the notion that a re-roll...removes all the drama of the actual dice roll. In 40K, particularly 8th edition it leads to ruining moments that should be a big deal.

Did you roll a '6' to explode while in a crazy location, will this massive explosion change the face of the entir- "I'm gonna re-roll it."...oh...okay. Did you roll double '6's for a Knight to explode!? Wow, you could almo- "I'm gonna re-roll one of them...". Oh. It diminishes the importance of a unit's actual statistic and just adds a layer of lazy onto everything.

It's like the fun police of dice rolls. Now you could argue that perhaps you view it in the other direction...maybe you fail something and re-roll to get it, but that's almost more annoying. If you have a 2+ ability to do something and roll a '1'...that should be the exciting, game changing moment. But we know that rolling two '1's in a row is a microscopic chance, so we lose the excitement of that failure. Take a squad for example, with a 2+ to hit...and it's at a game critical moment. You have eight attacks, needing 3+. In a fluke dice roll you fail 6/8 of those rolls. Well that's a pretty crazy moment and now the game might change. But allowing a re-roll to that removes so much risk and interest, it just smooths over any outlying chances into boredom.

Now to the mathhammer/competitive crowd, a re-roll is nothing more than a change to an Excel spreadsheet box, and is simply a mathematical machination to be calculated. For the players who are playing the game for enjoyment and story, it's a literal mathhammer...that is squashing all of the cool moments - the ones you feared when originally reading the rulebook. I remember thinking "Oh man, vehicles blow up! Psykers can explode!" etc. How much of that actively happened in 8th edition? Hardly any, unless a wounded vehicle was off in the distance and the player didn't care about it. Any of these instances were squashed immediately with re-roll stratagems.

To me, re-rolling something in a game is about the most boring/lazy/uninspiring thing you can do.

Completely agree. It's exacerbated by the narrow range of stats and dice results too, to the point where pretty much all characters hit on 2s and often get to re-roll 1s. I've played a few games of 8th without re-rolls and even more without the 3 core strats and in either case the game was better for it. Having dice results matter does not remove skill, nor does the fact that removing re-rolls means luck plays more of a part. What you end up with is simply a slightly different mindset required to play the game with more contingency planning. The biggest problem with how some armies work is that modern 40k removes any requirement to guess ranges as everything is premeasured, then they flattened the wound chart so there are far fewer low wound chances in the game, then they provided so many re-rolls and accuracy buffs alongside fire rate inflation that dice results are known before they're rolled almost to the same accuracy as ranges are.

Re-rolls seem to add to the "feel bad" moments in the game too. Just when you think you've survived against the odds your opponent re-rolls those 1s to hit, then when the damage roll comes up short you get a command re-roll there as well. It's just...dull. I can't remember the last time I played a regular game of 8th and morale mattered because even in the unlikely event someone rolls high they just re-roll it and everything is fine. Same with vehicle explosions. If it would be too devastating it just gets re-rolled. Re-rolls and the command re-roll also significantly add to the power of alpha strikes because burning all those CPs early to fire twice, do extra damage, do extra mortal wounds etc, becomes much more of a sure thing when you know you're going to be hitting 90%+ of the time. What's especially odd is that the proliferation of re-rolls is really an 8th edition thing, yet nobody complained about the potential vagaries of the dice back then.

 Elbows wrote:
As a long time wargamer, and a hobbyist game designer...I fething loathe re-rolls. Do I mind one or two in a game? Sure. Special ability for your character to set you apart? Okay. GW has a history of leaning VERY heavily into this, and I cannot fething stand it.

It's not about time for me, it's about the notion that a re-roll...removes all the drama of the actual dice roll. In 40K, particularly 8th edition it leads to ruining moments that should be a big deal.

Did you roll a '6' to explode while in a crazy location, will this massive explosion change the face of the entir- "I'm gonna re-roll it."...oh...okay. Did you roll double '6's for a Knight to explode!? Wow, you could almo- "I'm gonna re-roll one of them...". Oh. It diminishes the importance of a unit's actual statistic and just adds a layer of lazy onto everything.

It's like the fun police of dice rolls. Now you could argue that perhaps you view it in the other direction...maybe you fail something and re-roll to get it, but that's almost more annoying. If you have a 2+ ability to do something and roll a '1'...that should be the exciting, game changing moment. But we know that rolling two '1's in a row is a microscopic chance, so we lose the excitement of that failure. Take a squad for example, with a 2+ to hit...and it's at a game critical moment. You have eight attacks, needing 3+. In a fluke dice roll you fail 6/8 of those rolls. Well that's a pretty crazy moment and now the game might change. But allowing a re-roll to that removes so much risk and interest, it just smooths over any outlying chances into boredom.

Now to the mathhammer/competitive crowd, a re-roll is nothing more than a change to an Excel spreadsheet box, and is simply a mathematical machination to be calculated. For the players who are playing the game for enjoyment and story, it's a literal mathhammer...that is squashing all of the cool moments - the ones you feared when originally reading the rulebook. I remember thinking "Oh man, vehicles blow up! Psykers can explode!" etc. How much of that actively happened in 8th edition? Hardly any, unless a wounded vehicle was off in the distance and the player didn't care about it. Any of these instances were squashed immediately with re-roll stratagems.

To me, re-rolling something in a game is about the most boring/lazy/uninspiring thing you can do.

100% agree. It is the main reason the SM codex is a disaster.

This is like arguing with someone about housework.

"I gather the dirty dishes! I put soap in the basin! I fill the basin with water! I put the dishes in the water! I get a sponge from the cupboard! I soak the sponge in water!" etc etc

Any action can sound laboured if you want it to.

No idea why GW doesn't just make fixed stuff instead of re-rolls, just like dark reapers .

Marines didn't move, so they hit on +2. You are shoting at someone with a RG or AL style of rule, you hit them on +4 or +5.

Stuff like banner, captins or chapter master style auras or buffs could be more simple stuff.
Being able to fire at the not closest unit, getting +1A etc Maybe even make rules less like auras and more unit specific. So lets say we remove the double fight or double shot stratagems, but specific characters could have litanies, orders etc with which they could target a single unit per turn and buff them. And to avoid 3 IG Lt or ad mecha priest making a knight or a banblade shot fourt times per turn, all it would take is to make such targeting once per turn or once per phase.

Less rolling, less taking up time, but there is still unit synergy and people have stuff to do. Only now it is actual stuff, not moving your army as a 40 model blob with characters on the inside. Choices would have to be made, do I shot twice with the chaff killers making a charge easier, or maybe I shot with the anti tank stuff twice, so opponent stuff doesn't blow me up or counter charges with a monster.

On top of that sometimes the number of rolls are just crazy, and I include the new GK stuff among this stuff. Do we realy need aggressors double taping with hundrades of dice , re-rolling stuff? doesn't add to the game, slows it down considerably and is really not fun to see someone roll 30 dice 5 times, re-rolling hits and wounds

Re-rolls have nothing to do with core rules, they come with the codexes. So no, 9th edition won't reduce them appriately because 8th edition codexes would still be valid.

It's crazy that SM roll more dice than orks, but that's the sad reality

 jeff white wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
I'm happy to remove re-rolls from the game. Before quarantine I played some games of 2nd Ed. again, and the lack of rerolls was both shocking and refreshing. If you missed, you missed, and that was that.

Yes. I hope that rerolls will be limited in the new edition

I think people that hope for this are setting themselves up for disappointment. If they are planning on keeping all datasheets valid going forward, anyway. rerolls are already limited to rerolling 1 time, I don't know if there's a way they could easily limit them thru the core rules when practically every reroll is a datasheet ability.

I think people that hope for this are setting themselves up for disappointment. If they are planning on keeping all datasheets valid going forward, anyway. rerolls are already limited to rerolling 1 time, I don't know if there's a way they could easily limit them thru the core rules when practically every reroll is a datasheet ability.

Agreed. I'm not . Fan if the quantity of re-rolls either. They're a primary reason the game takes so long now. Sure, you can only reroll an action one time, but when you can units that can reroll ponce at almost every phase, and those units are surprisingly common, well, 8th ed is basically what you get. lol Play a 2000pt game under 8th ed rules, but leave out re-rolls and strategems and watch how much faster the game goes. But since GW decided it was army size that was taking so long - I'm not holding my breath on re-rolls getting a correction.

I actually liked most of 8th, but had already started to dislike re-rolls not long after the first marine codex came out.

For me, Rerolls should need to justify their existence by being actually impactful.

That is to say, I would eliminate any and all instances of 'reroll 1s' because more than anything it acts as a time-killing mechanic.

Also, and very much related, Auras need to die altogether. Either make them like the ones Necron Overlords and have them only able to affect a single unit per turn or, better yet, scrap Stratagems as well and instead implement something akin to the Command mechanic from Age of Sigmar.

 Togusa wrote:
My average game time is 2 hours and 20 minutes, and we rarely make it beyond the third turn (about 43% of the time). I don't know about you, but that's a long time for a game that could be played in under two hours.

If this is true, you are doing something wrong.

I'm not saying the rules don't make this happen, but that you are making the wrong choices before you even put a model on the table. You either need to set aside more time for the game size you are playing or game at a point level that you can actually finish the game in the time you will have.

"The fault, ..., is not in our stars, But in ourselves"

If this is true, you are doing something wrong.

I'm not saying the rules don't make this happen, but that you are making the wrong choices before you even put a model on the table. You either need to set aside more time for the game size you are playing or game at a point level that you can actually finish the game in the time you will have.

"The fault, ..., is not in our stars, But in ourselves"

Experienced tournament players are having trouble completing on time and this is the edition where we introduced chess clocks .... Admittedly IDK what point level Togusa is playing at, but it's not uncommon for games of 8th to take that long or longer ...

Say it with me.....

STREAMLINED!!

ERJAK wrote:
This is like saying X-Wing is a gak game because you have to turn your dial to the left, and then turn your dial to left, and then turn your dial to the left, then select the correct movement for what you want to do, then set the dial down, then turn slightly, then extend your arm, then move your arm into a position near your template, then lower your hand to the template, then make contact with the correct template, then grasp the correct template, then move the template in front of the ship, etc, etc, Thusly the Attack Sequence in X-wing is 190 steps so the game must be bad.

That's a completely false equivalence.

If OP had taken that route, they would be saying you need to look at the rulebook to determine number of shots, separate out a number of dice equal to the number of shots, place all the dice in the hand, close the fist, shake the fist, open the fist while shaking, count all dice that reached the required value...

They didn't list the rote mechanical steps needed to carry out an attack in 40K, they listed the discrete logical steps. And there are a lot of them compared to other systems. The basic system isn't egregious, but when stratagems and re-rolls get involved it slows way down.

I'll compare with Starship Troopers, written by Andy Chambers:

-Select unit
-Select target
-Roll to hit
-Roll saves (if relevant)
-Remove models that fail saves, Flinch models that pass saves

Or Bolt Action:

-Select unit
-Select target
-Target reacts (optional)
-Roll to hit
-Roll damage
-Remove casualties, roll for morale

40K has a bunch more logical steps involved than either comparably-scaled skirmish game, and each step has the potential to get slowed down by re-rolls.

I feel like people telling OP that 'well those don't happen EVERY time' or 'well those are basic things' are completely missing the point. Compare to, like, 3rd Ed where you have no damage rolls, few or no rerolls, and no stratagems to interrupt the sequence, and it's a pretty stark difference.