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MJRyder wrote: Agreed ^. It also makes the game far more accessible to new players.
I really don't think that's a particular hang up of new players.
Maybe not on its own, but speaking from personal experience teaching my own teens to play 40k, it's much easier to remember that unit A or B moved than keeping track of each individual model. Especially when they don't have the attention span to finish a 1000pt game in a single sitting.
Seriously, I've all but stopped playing with my oldest son because he loses interest after turn 2 just about every game. And it's 90% how complicated the game is, 10% because video games have spoiled him. Well, maybe 50/50
With all that you already have to keep track of, one less thing can make a difference. Several things less to keep track of is even better.
MJRyder wrote: Agreed ^. It also makes the game far more accessible to new players.
I really don't think that's a particular hang up of new players.
Intermediate players is probably a fairer description, trying to take narrative or less experienced competitive playerd through some of the ways that the 8th edition rules could be gamed was never an easy or fun task and alot of it boiled down to that's dumb it just be simpler.
I gest some people might enjoy micro managing coherency and conga lines and all of the idd exploits but they where a PITA to explain to people and resulted in a lot of feel bad gotcha moments that in the grand scheme of 8th added minimal tactical choice and a lot of rules lawyering.
^Imo the mechanic could swing either way for new players. I wouldn't be surprised if someone was put off that they couldn't avoid the penalty by having that model stand still. I think the biggest hurdle for new players is game size, and the most successful intro games I've run/seen have tended to be just a couple squads in size, in which case it's not an issue.
I agree that the ruling is at least partly for the sake of bookkeeping, I just don't think it's a sticking point for new players.
That said, I would not be surprised if the other impetus for the rule is to help differentiate vehicles and infantry more, for either A: (cynical) to keep the rules churn going, and B: (positive) because tanks and infantry really should behave quite differently.
Martel732 wrote: I've got dozens of heavy weapon marines. This is fine in my book. A vehicle mounted autocannon should have an advantage over a dude slinging one.
I wonder if the point values between the two will differ as a result.
To bad Death Guard don't get any heavy weapons for their infantry though...
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Aash wrote: I mentioned this in the news and rumours thread, but that thread is moving so quickly I thought I’d post it here.
What’s everyone’s thoughts on the new rule for heavy weapon infantry? Seems a pretty major change that will change the way a lot of units function.
8th edition heavy weapons are -1 to hit if the MODEL moves. 9th edition heavy weapons get -1 to hit if the UNIT moves (only for infantry).
Personally I think that’s a big change. What do you all think?
I like this.
For me, it's a lot more interesting of a game if the units hit on higher numbers, rather than seeing everyone boosting to the point that rolling is nearly unneeded. I mean I can set up my oblits to roll on a 2+ re-rolling 1s which is pretty stupid. Why even roll at that point?
With more negative modifiers, units won't be quite as effective in mass and I feel like tanks and walkers will be much more viable, especially since (rightfully) they don't have this problem now!
Times were different in the 80's- no net, no smartphones, and videogames were sprite based side scrollers.
But wow.
I played my first game of AD&D in grade 3, and was regularly GMing for the adults in my life as well as my friends within the year; I would have been 10 by then.
I wrote my first RPG when I was 12, based on the old Micronaut toys and comics.
It is utterly alien to me that people think Warhammer 40k is hard to play or teach. I had a grade 7/8 split class, intensive support, meaning every student had been diagnosed with either a behavioural disorder or learning disability. I taught them all how to build scenery, how to use textured paint, how to dry brush. We built a non-scale model of Vimy Ridge for history class one day and played 40k on it.
Granted, I was never a typical kid- I hated sports and outdoors, and I think I was reading Stephen King by the time I turned 12- not bragging about the reading level here; it's well documented that King's writing typically reads at the grade 5 level- it's the subject matter that gets most people when I tell them stories of my youth.
In my first practicum placement to become a teacher, my associate teacher told me something I've never forgotten. He said, "These kids will rise... Or sink... To meet your expectations."
I don't understand why some people are upset by this change. The VAST majority of INFANTRY units either don't have access to Heavy weapons, are mostly Heavy weapons (Devs/Havocs) or have the OPTION to just not take that 1 Heavy.
As many have pointed out, we had this rule in previous editions, and in those editions, the majority of Infantry still didn't carry heavy weapons. So that was true back then as well. The thing is, even with that being true, it heavily contributed to static game play. My issue with this change is that, one of the common complaints of 8th is that movement doesn't seem to matter like it should. One of the complaints of the last several editions is that static gunlines are both very powerful, too prevelant, and un-fun to play against. This rule helps contribute to BOTH of those problems.
IMO, as adjustments go, the bad points outweigh any potential good points (and even the "good" points are dubious) here.
Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug
Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..."
^I don't think it will contribute THAT much to static gunlines. The prior-to-8th restrictions on shooting were far greater, and <8th didn't feel particularly static. Plus it looks like 9th ed Vehicles will be trucking around firing just fine.
if GW makes tanks, vehicles and armed transports much better then infantry on foot, this ain't going to be much of a problem.
Game will be dynamic, with lots of movment and no accuracy lost.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
and while move-and-fire at -1 with heavies isn't that bad on it's own, it does cause issue with BS4+ and 5+ armies, especially when their vehicles/Monsters are supposed to be mobile fire support. If you get dropped to hitting less than half shots whil moving, you are not mobile fire support(guard, Taj, Admech, Nids and stealer cults, DEldar, CEldar, and Orks to some degree, basically most armies).
Most of those armies aren't affect at all by the penalty though. Orks don't have a single vehicle that suffers that -1 penalty, there's basically just the gunwagon, which doesn't want to move anyway (it'll lose the ability to shoot twice), while drukhari's vehicles never suffer that penalty as "heavy weapons" become "assault weapons" if mounted on vehicles and coven monsters have assault or rapid fire weapons. Guard tanks have long range weapons and couldn't care less about moving, etc...
and while move-and-fire at -1 with heavies isn't that bad on it's own, it does cause issue with BS4+ and 5+ armies, especially when their vehicles/Monsters are supposed to be mobile fire support. If you get dropped to hitting less than half shots whil moving, you are not mobile fire support(guard, Taj, Admech, Nids and stealer cults, DEldar, CEldar, and Orks to some degree, basically most armies).
Most of those armies aren't affect at all by the penalty though. Orks don't have a single vehicle that suffers that -1 penalty, there's basically just the gunwagon, which doesn't want to move anyway (it'll lose the ability to shoot twice), while drukhari's vehicles never suffer that penalty as "heavy weapons" become "assault weapons" if mounted on vehicles and coven monsters have assault or rapid fire weapons. Guard tanks have long range weapons and couldn't care less about moving, etc...
Yeah, and those were many of the viable vehicles. IG is getting a lot of buffs, but we need to see the rest of the rules and point values.
^I don't think it will contribute THAT much to static gunlines. The prior-to-8th restrictions on shooting were far greater, and <8th didn't feel particularly static. Plus it looks like 9th ed Vehicles will be trucking around firing just fine.
Yeah. I mean, I'm not claiming it's a huge effect or a major contributing factor or anything like that. Just that, if anything, the most likely effect this will have will be to either further contribute to people simply not taking troops (something that seems more and more likely with each preview of 9th), and/or that it will contribute to static game play. I can't really think of any legit "positives" for it, so to me, it just feels like a solution looking for a problem.
Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug
Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..."
considering valkyries were penalized for moving, and obtained advantages for hovering, it was better for that aircraft to stand still than actually fly around the battlefield.
Also the fact that some aircraft simply had better bs scores to compensate, while others did not have the -1 modifier. This is overall a positive change IMO.
^I don't think it will contribute THAT much to static gunlines. The prior-to-8th restrictions on shooting were far greater, and <8th didn't feel particularly static. Plus it looks like 9th ed Vehicles will be trucking around firing just fine.
Yeah. I mean, I'm not claiming it's a huge effect or a major contributing factor or anything like that. Just that, if anything, the most likely effect this will have will be to either further contribute to people simply not taking troops (something that seems more and more likely with each preview of 9th), and/or that it will contribute to static game play. I can't really think of any legit "positives" for it, so to me, it just feels like a solution looking for a problem.
Ehh, I'd wait until we see the full rule set and point value before making any judgement call on that front. Tanks could shoot way up in price, Infantry might get double-cover bonuses. Who knows?
Still hoping every model in the squad can use a grenade in CC against Vehicles a-la 1st-through-fething-6th edition.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/10 23:38:09
I find myself going back and forth on this, but generally lean to this being a positive change.
On the one hand, in 8th it's fair to assume that a heavy weapon has stayed still while the rest of its unit has moved. It wasn't too hard to see whether an opponent has moved their heavy weapons models.
On the other hand, it helps to speed the game up by stopping players from carefully conga-lining to take objectives/get in range of auras/etc.
When 8th edition changed the way blast weapons or vehicle facings worked, the time saving wasn't in the use of blast weapons or checking armour facings/firing arcs. The time saving was in the preparation; players would always spend minutes spreading their units out to maximum coherency to avoid blasts, or angling their tanks just so in order to get the right armour facings.
I see this change as being along the same lines. While I do prefer the current rule (where only the model mattered for moving), changing it to be unit-based cuts out one of those little things that everyone does, and is one less thing to have to be extra careful about.
The ultimate effect IMHO is that heavy weapons will be relegated to heavy specialists (Devastators, HWS, Havocs, etc) and vehicles, while line infantry like Tacticals and CSM will be given mostly Assault weapons so they can move up and take objectives without finessing individual model movement, like they're supposed to.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/10 23:56:49
Cheex wrote: The ultimate effect IMHO is that heavy weapons will be relegated to heavy specialists (Devastators, HWS, Havocs, etc) and vehicles, while line infantry like Tacticals and CSM will be given mostly Assault weapons so they can move up and take objectives without finessing individual model movement, like they're supposed to.
Speaking as a guy who ran heavy weapons in his Tactical squads when they couldn't even fire if one model in the squad moved, and couldn't target separate units with the heavy weapon, you're very wrong. The increase in range and damage output provided by the Heavy Weapon is still extremely high, and extremely worthwhile.
Cheex wrote: The ultimate effect IMHO is that heavy weapons will be relegated to heavy specialists (Devastators, HWS, Havocs, etc) and vehicles, while line infantry like Tacticals and CSM will be given mostly Assault weapons so they can move up and take objectives without finessing individual model movement, like they're supposed to.
Speaking as a guy who ran heavy weapons in his Tactical squads when they couldn't even fire if one model in the squad moved, and couldn't target separate units with the heavy weapon, you're very wrong. The increase in range and damage output provided by the Heavy Weapon is still extremely high, and extremely worthwhile.
I don't think marine heavy weapons are that great. At least, not enough to justify their cost on a 1W guy.
Still hoping every model in the squad can use a grenade in CC against Vehicles a-la 1st-through-fething-6th edition.
<Cries in melta bomb>
Even if it’s just one guy in the squad, a well placed krack grenade or melta bomb gives the humble footslogger a chance against tough stuff. If not in CC, at least be able to replace a pistol shot when stuck in and shooting
Insectum7 wrote:
Cheex wrote: The ultimate effect IMHO is that heavy weapons will be relegated to heavy specialists (Devastators, HWS, Havocs, etc) and vehicles, while line infantry like Tacticals and CSM will be given mostly Assault weapons so they can move up and take objectives without finessing individual model movement, like they're supposed to.
Speaking as a guy who ran heavy weapons in his Tactical squads when they couldn't even fire if one model in the squad moved, and couldn't target separate units with the heavy weapon, you're very wrong. The increase in range and damage output provided by the Heavy Weapon is still extremely high, and extremely worthwhile.
Heavy weapons in forward deployed tac squads have served me well. They tend to be forgotten and have made me some game winning shots. This was more relevant with armor facings and directional wounds. Slapping a krack missile into someone’s flank could yield solid results.
And I’ll admit, there are games where the guy with the ML did nothing but shoot his pistol on the move and then eventually die. But those were the minority.
Cheex wrote: The ultimate effect IMHO is that heavy weapons will be relegated to heavy specialists (Devastators, HWS, Havocs, etc) and vehicles, while line infantry like Tacticals and CSM will be given mostly Assault weapons so they can move up and take objectives without finessing individual model movement, like they're supposed to.
Speaking as a guy who ran heavy weapons in his Tactical squads when they couldn't even fire if one model in the squad moved, and couldn't target separate units with the heavy weapon, you're very wrong. The increase in range and damage output provided by the Heavy Weapon is still extremely high, and extremely worthwhile.
I don't think marine heavy weapons are that great. At least, not enough to justify their cost on a 1W guy.
Csm like our chaincannons and auto cannons. Good for chewing up infantry or plinking at distant targets while sitting on objectives respectively.
Cheex wrote: The ultimate effect IMHO is that heavy weapons will be relegated to heavy specialists (Devastators, HWS, Havocs, etc) and vehicles, while line infantry like Tacticals and CSM will be given mostly Assault weapons so they can move up and take objectives without finessing individual model movement, like they're supposed to.
Speaking as a guy who ran heavy weapons in his Tactical squads when they couldn't even fire if one model in the squad moved, and couldn't target separate units with the heavy weapon, you're very wrong. The increase in range and damage output provided by the Heavy Weapon is still extremely high, and extremely worthwhile.
I don't think marine heavy weapons are that great. At least, not enough to justify their cost on a 1W guy.
Csm like our chaincannons and auto cannons. Good for chewing up infantry or plinking at distant targets while sitting on objectives respectively.
The EMPRAH marines don't get those. Two single shot crap weapons. A third is mostly single shot with a terrible blast mode. That leaves plasma cannon, grav cannon, heavy bolter. I just don't find any of those weapons inspiring anymore. Grav cannons are good in a primaris meta, but if draw demons or Drukhari, you are so boned.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/11 01:10:15
Insectum7 wrote: Las, Plas, Grav are the loyalist triumvirate of goodness. Modify for your chapter tactics. Plasma might be getting even better with blast.
Lascannons are pure crap. The other two are decent, but grav is a real gamble at its pricepoint. They're even less good on 1W models.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/06/11 01:41:47
Cheex wrote: The ultimate effect IMHO is that heavy weapons will be relegated to heavy specialists (Devastators, HWS, Havocs, etc) and vehicles, while line infantry like Tacticals and CSM will be given mostly Assault weapons so they can move up and take objectives without finessing individual model movement, like they're supposed to.
Speaking as a guy who ran heavy weapons in his Tactical squads when they couldn't even fire if one model in the squad moved, and couldn't target separate units with the heavy weapon, you're very wrong. The increase in range and damage output provided by the Heavy Weapon is still extremely high, and extremely worthwhile.
I don't think marine heavy weapons are that great. At least, not enough to justify their cost on a 1W guy.
Csm like our chaincannons and auto cannons. Good for chewing up infantry or plinking at distant targets while sitting on objectives respectively.
The EMPRAH marines don't get those. Two single shot crap weapons. A third is mostly single shot with a terrible blast mode. That leaves plasma cannon, grav cannon, heavy bolter. I just don't find any of those weapons inspiring anymore. Grav cannons are good in a primaris meta, but if draw demons or Drukhari, you are so boned.
Well, us filthy heretics have to have something you loyalist dogs don't. Maybe it's time you traded your Twilight Marines for some with a bit more of a Vlad Tepes flavor.
No, I'm fine with it. Marine heavy weapons used to be better than they are now. The CSM toys just translate better in 8th. ACs are particularly useful.
Insectum7 wrote: Las, Plas, Grav are the loyalist triumvirate of goodness. Modify for your chapter tactics. Plasma might be getting even better with blast.
Lascannons are pure crap. The other two are decent, but grav is a real gamble at its pricepoint. They're even less good on 1W models.
We're just gonna have to agree to disagree then, noted grumbler. Good range and wounding T8 on a 3+ leaving only a roll of 2 without a reroll is good stuff.
Insectum7 wrote: Las, Plas, Grav are the loyalist triumvirate of goodness. Modify for your chapter tactics. Plasma might be getting even better with blast.
Lascannons are pure crap. The other two are decent, but grav is a real gamble at its pricepoint. They're even less good on 1W models.
We're just gonna have to agree to disagree then, noted grumbler. Good range and wounding T8 on a 3+ leaving only a roll of 2 without a reroll is good stuff.
One shot is an absolute deal breaker. It doesn't matter what you're wounding on. It's much better vs the Imperium than its actual foes.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/11 02:02:20
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