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Also, like at this point in time I feel like dedicated heavy weapon infantry being able to move and fire is just all over the place, so like, how severe is it? Basically it hits embedded weapons.

This does solve the issue of "Retributors are angry, and therefore suffer no accuracy loss when moving and hip firing, but a tank with guided top-attack missiles [or at the very least stabilizers for a main gun] suddenly has issues shooting straight.

Aash wrote:
I mentioned this in the news and rumours thread, but that thread is moving so quickly I thought I’d post it here.

What’s everyone’s thoughts on the new rule for heavy weapon infantry? Seems a pretty major change that will change the way a lot of units function.

8th edition heavy weapons are -1 to hit if the MODEL moves. 9th edition heavy weapons get -1 to hit if the UNIT moves (only for infantry).

Personally I think that’s a big change. What do you all think?

It makes the fact that my Retributors already ignore the -1 a lot stronger.

I love the favt that predators and necrons doom scythes become way better in my opinion.

 Khornate25 wrote:
I love the favt that predators and necrons doom scythes become way better in my opinion.

Oh it’s a massive boon to a lot of vehicles. Especially those focused on speed. My land speeders are going to love it.

I think this thread is more focused on the infantry side of the change.

For the most part, if you were giving foot sloggers heavy weapons they were not going to be shuffling around much anyway. It will impact moving spare bodies around, but honestly it’s mostly corner cases. I don’t think anyone is going to be rewriting their lists over this, or sending models down to the swap shelf.

I think it might be a rule about bookeeping in a competetive setting. It makes it clear what the penalty is and there will be less "forgetful fudging" over individual models. My UM doctrined marines get to ignore it in Tactical Doctrine anyways, because super-doctrines are bonkers.

Aash wrote:
What do you all think?

I think the person who wrote that new rule forgot about the current one.

 JNAProductions wrote:
It helps avoid silly congalines where the heavy weapon guy stands still and everyone else moves forward to grab an objective or something.

The HW guy covering his squad as they advance is a silly situation, is it?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Aash wrote:
What do you all think?

I think the person who wrote that new rule forgot about the current one.

 JNAProductions wrote:
It helps avoid silly congalines where the heavy weapon guy stands still and everyone else moves forward to grab an objective or something.

The HW guy covering his squad as they advance is a silly situation, is it?

GW don't like it because it's gaming the system and coubter intuitive to new players this one guy basically can't even be touched or he gets -1 to hit while the rest of the squad can run around in a giant conga line to him. Gamy mechanic because they didn't intend people to explote their writing the way they did.

Also -1 to hit, so 4+ or 5+ for most armies is still way better than the snapshooting 6's only of everyone who likes to complains favourite 7th edition.

I'll be honest and say I didn't even notice we could leave the heavy weapon stationary in a unit to avoid the -1 in 8th. It wasn't really something that came up much to notice it though.

It's a price I'll happily pay to get my Sentinel walkers running and gunning again, as well as multi meltas on hellhounds now not being entirely useless too.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
It helps avoid silly congalines where the heavy weapon guy stands still and everyone else moves forward to grab an objective or something.

The HW guy covering his squad as they advance is a silly situation, is it?

It isn't a silly situation, but it's a skirmish game mechanic hiding in too large of a wargame.

 Insectum7 wrote:
I think it might be a rule about bookeeping in a competetive setting. It makes it clear what the penalty is and there will be less "forgetful fudging" over individual models. My UM doctrined marines get to ignore it in Tactical Doctrine anyways, because super-doctrines are bonkers.

My thought exactly. It is easier to have to remember did unit X move rather than did model A in uint X move, especially for your opponent.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
It isn't a silly situation, but it's a skirmish game mechanic hiding in too large of a wargame.

So what feels more natural: The HW being able to fire as normal when other people around him move, or the HW guy forgetting how to use his gun properly because one guy shifted forward to get into range?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
It isn't a silly situation, but it's a skirmish game mechanic hiding in too large of a wargame.

So what feels more natural: The HW being able to fire as normal when other people around him move, or the HW guy forgetting how to use his gun properly because one guy shifted forward to get into range?

The ability to leave the HW guy behind (maybe with a guard) and move forwards with everyone else.

But only Space Marines can do that

Once upon a time Guard squads could leave their HW team behind.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
It isn't a silly situation, but it's a skirmish game mechanic hiding in too large of a wargame.

So what feels more natural: The HW being able to fire as normal when other people around him move, or the HW guy forgetting how to use his gun properly because one guy shifted forward to get into range?

The ability to leave the HW guy behind (maybe with a guard) and move forwards with everyone else.

But only Space Marines can do that

Eh?

He's talking about Combat Squads.

I am talking about com-

Yes.

I like the change not for fluff sake, but for my sake.Trying to keep track of whether or not I moved the heavy weapon guy (or making sure I didn't) over 5-6 units was enough of a pain, watching my opponent for the same reason? Ridiculous. (and if you never had to do this, good for you.)

If you were planning on firing the HW guy, wouldn't the default be "I better not move him!".

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I am talking about com-

Yes.

Ah. Well, that's not quite accurate as it's not done freely and it's not just the heavy weapon model. But sorta. It's nowhere near the 2nd Ed IG Heavy Weapons team becoming independent ability that was alluded to.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
If you were planning on firing the HW guy, wouldn't the default be "I better not move him!".

Yes, always.

Hasn't GW flip flopped the squad vs model heavy weapon penalty every single edition? It'd be bad form to stop now. I really don't care on the infantry side, both approaches have their upsides.

I definitely like the change from the vehicle side, maybe one day I can field a land speeder again.

bort wrote:
Hasn't GW flip flopped the squad vs model heavy weapon penalty every single edition? It'd be bad form to stop now. I really don't care on the infantry side, both approaches have their upsides.

I definitely like the change from the vehicle side, maybe one day I can field a land speeder again.

I think this change really makes small skimmers look much more interesting based on whats revealed so far. Especially if the boards are about to get a lot more dense, mobility should hopefully come into its own.

 Argive wrote:
I think this change really makes small skimmers look much more interesting based on whats revealed so far. Especially if the boards are about to get a lot more dense, mobility should hopefully come into its own.

Viva la Vyper?

That'd be nice. I haven't used a Land Speeder in ages.

Ice_can wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Aash wrote:
What do you all think?

I think the person who wrote that new rule forgot about the current one.

 JNAProductions wrote:
It helps avoid silly congalines where the heavy weapon guy stands still and everyone else moves forward to grab an objective or something.

The HW guy covering his squad as they advance is a silly situation, is it?

GW don't like it because it's gaming the system and coubter intuitive to new players this one guy basically can't even be touched or he gets -1 to hit while the rest of the squad can run around in a giant conga line to him. Gamy mechanic because they didn't intend people to explote their writing the way they did.

Also -1 to hit, so 4+ or 5+ for most armies is still way better than the snapshooting 6's only of everyone who likes to complains favourite 7th edition.

So people gamed that rule for 3 editions and GW just noticed ? They must not have cared too much then.

Obviously this is good news for vehicles of all types, bad news for infantry.

Makes sense why some dedicated heavy weapon groups can move and fire with no penalty, makes you wonder if you'll see more squads like that gain rules to let them move and shoot fine. I don't really mind too much as they can still fire and if there is a limit to modifiers that sounds good to me as well. The big issue is flat costs for units heavy weapons makes this less cool than in edition past. However, that may change some coming up.

It doesn't make any sense why squads would jostle the heavy weapon all the time, I don't think its gamey at all that other squad members would move around and let him stand still to fire, for me makes less sense they'd always elbow him. This may all be a rather dumb talking point as if you need to do actions to take objectives its possible those squads we are speaking of will spend lots of time doing other things other than shooting most turns anyways so this may all be an academic problem and if so I don't see why infantry would need to suffer a step back while vehicles get multiple steps forward. Why change the rule back to old editions when they thought it worked great for three editions ?

They never can seem to get their head around if they want vehicles to move, shoot, move and shoot or anything in between. I wonder how they'll totally change around in 10th edition and even through the course of this edition. Heres the thing, Land raider Crusaders will be good, how long will it take them to nerf vehicles shooting again because GW can't allow any Land raiders to be worth it. I say like half a year before they nerf vehicle shooting.

Ice_can wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Aash wrote:
What do you all think?

I think the person who wrote that new rule forgot about the current one.

 JNAProductions wrote:
It helps avoid silly congalines where the heavy weapon guy stands still and everyone else moves forward to grab an objective or something.

The HW guy covering his squad as they advance is a silly situation, is it?

GW don't like it because it's gaming the system and coubter intuitive to new players this one guy basically can't even be touched or he gets -1 to hit while the rest of the squad can run around in a giant conga line to him. Gamy mechanic because they didn't intend people to explote their writing the way they did.

Also -1 to hit, so 4+ or 5+ for most armies is still way better than the snapshooting 6's only of everyone who likes to complains favourite 7th edition.

Gamey mechanic is unintuitive rules. Model not moving not suffering penalty is intuitive. It's what you would expect from logical point of view. Its direct opposite of gamey rule

I hope that termintors get a rule to ignore the -1 to hit. Or that teleporting in or gating doesn't count as having moved.

Karol wrote:
I hope that termintors get a rule to ignore the -1 to hit. Or that teleporting in or gating doesn't count as having moved.

They had it for a long time. DIdn't help much. Maybe it will now? 2W is the kiss of death though.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
It isn't a silly situation, but it's a skirmish game mechanic hiding in too large of a wargame.

So what feels more natural: The HW being able to fire as normal when other people around him move, or the HW guy forgetting how to use his gun properly because one guy shifted forward to get into range?

It's a matter of consistency. If a vehicle pivots around its corner such that its footprint on the table changes the whole vehicle is deemed to have "moved", even if some bits of the model didn't physically move. If an infantry unit moves some models but not others such that the unit's footprint on the table changes the whole unit is deemed to have "moved", even if some individual models didn't physically move. The game is an abstraction. If you want to argue about the irrationality of penalizing the whole unit if some of the unit moved we should talk about the irrationality of energy-shield bubbles working on units with one model toeing into the radius no matter how insane a geometry of the shield that creates, or using a single pose of a model for line of sight for the enemy but then ignoring it yourself when shooting through other members of your unit, or the fact that if I crack my Knights off their bases suddenly they can attack upper floors of buildings just fine without needing to spend CP, or any number of other things. There are games with no bizarre abstractions, but they're skirmish games where you're simulating a fight between two squads of 5-10 guys. They're fun but that's another genre of game, which isn't one GW is designing here. And isn't one they're interested in designing, given how many bizarre abstractions still litter Kill-Team.

The tyranids have exactly 1 heavy weapon and it is on an infantry model which is often taken in a one bug squad.

Literally nothing changes for the hyve players.

Spoletta wrote:
The tyranids have exactly 1 heavy weapon and it is on an infantry model which is often taken in a one bug squad.

Literally nothing changes for the hyve players.

A little more than that. Tyranid heavy weapons exist on Exocrines, Tyrannofexes, Hive Guard, and Biovores (plus a couple of the forgeworld beasties). Only the Hive Guard and Biovores are infantry though.
But yes, the vast majority of tyranid ranged weapons are Assault.