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Martel732 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I've got dozens of heavy weapon marines. This is fine in my book. A vehicle mounted autocannon should have an advantage over a dude slinging one.

I wonder if the point values between the two will differ as a result.

Or is it baked into the fire platform?

I think perhaps no since many vehicles can go between blast and direct-fire weapons. Making the platform more could dissuade anything, but blast weapons. There was, however, a comment GW made and I can't remember if it was an article or a stream where they mentioned something about changing how points are distributed - or something to that effect. Or maybe I'm going nuts.

Martel732 wrote:

One shot is an absolute deal breaker. It doesn't matter what you're wounding on. It's much better vs the Imperium than its actual foes.

Guess what the meta is these days.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

One shot is an absolute deal breaker. It doesn't matter what you're wounding on. It's much better vs the Imperium than its actual foes.

Guess what the meta is these days.

But it wasn't for a long time. I get the impression you think grav is good in general. It's only good in a primaris meta, imo. And even then, you are putting them on paper dolls.

It's good against Leman Russes, CSM, Tau, Carnifexes, Jetbikes etc. It's pretty rare that an army doesnt have a reasonable target. Better than the Autocannon you laud so heavily against most vehicles and elites, then better against targets like lesser daemons just by virtue of number of shots.

I'm not sure its better for the cost. And I don't like the range at all. But it does get a lot of shots. It just needs to be cheaper or go on a better platform.

 Insectum7 wrote:
It's good against Leman Russes, CSM, Tau, Carnifexes, Jetbikes etc. It's pretty rare that an army doesnt have a reasonable target. Better than the Autocannon you laud so heavily against most vehicles and elites, then better against targets like lesser daemons just by virtue of number of shots.

Autocannons are also half the cost and strictly a solid D2. So that's comparing, for 20 points, 4 S7 AP-1 D2 to 4 S5 AP-3 D1/DD3. That's not even making mention of Autocannons having twice the range. If I had the option for them I'd take Devastators every time.

I still use Grav Cannons on Sternguard Lias bomb but when you reroll all shots you can forgive the price tag. Assuming all the squads are near of course.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm not sure its better for the cost. And I don't like the range at all. But it does get a lot of shots. It just needs to be cheaper or go on a better platform.

A Devastator squad under proper rerolls and Doctrine will knock out a Leman Russ on it's own without the Grav-Strat. 3 of them with UM Oath average a Castellan knockout. Tac Squads with GravC and Plasma out damage the same number of points as Primaris against a lot of targets, Including Primaris. They put up great numbers, you just gotta commit to delivering them.

Overcharged Plasma Cannons outperform Autocannons all day every day. Autocannons are. . . Fine. If you want to sit around doing meh damage from the backfield, hah!

"A Devastator squad under proper rerolls and Doctrine will knock out a Leman Russ on it's own without the Grav-Strat. 3 of them with UM Oath average a Castellan knockout. Tac Squads with GravC and Plasma out damage the same number of points as Primaris against a lot of targets, Including Primaris. They put up great numbers, you just gotta commit to delivering them."

Once. They do all this once and then die. That's my concern. You do you, but it seems like you are triple downing on the glass cannon properties of marines.

"Overcharged Plasma Cannons outperform Autocannons all day every day."

Until a -1 shows up. Or -2. I know they are shitcanning -2 though, and if they make plasma only on natural 1 for overheat, I'll probably consider them superior. Marine just can't afford to kill themselves.

I'm also considering AP past -2 to generally be a waste of points.

Victory requires no explanation. Defeat allows none. :p

 Insectum7 wrote:
Victory requires no explanation. Defeat allows none. :p

It requires plenty if it is to be replicated by others. That's a cop out. Explain how to proceed after the devs are wiped in a turn. I always feel like you are leaving out critical details in your exploits.

Martel732 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Victory requires no explanation. Defeat allows none. :p

It requires plenty if it is to be replicated by others. That's a cop out. Explain how to proceed after the devs are wiped in a turn. I always feel like you are leaving out critical details in your exploits.

I might, if you didn't have such a long history of being Eeyore and disregarding reasoning because 'BA wah.'

Hit first, hit hard, make a mess of the opponents plan, then shoot, assault, withdraw, repeat until either you've won or lost all your mans. Lots of bodies in the PA swarm. Cheap Transports aren't wasted ramming into things and removing their ability to shoot. Rerolls all day. Stack your Strats, Relics and Doctrine bonusses as hard as you can. Leverage Combat Squads when applicable. If your Devs die, your Devs die, it's fine as long as your grinding the opponent away faster.

Autocannons kill too slow, and there are lots of Autocannon alternatives, Stalkers, Whilwinds, Thunderfires, etc. I want lots of damage as fast as possible. Plasma, Grav and Las deliver on that front. Las is swingy but those 5s and 6s are sweet, and you can spend a reroll Strat on a clutch Damage roll if you need it.

But if the tacs and dev squads take transports, even the cheapest rhinos, they no longer out perform primaris at same points, because the cost of the rhino that is needed for the grav units to function takes them over the point cost. May as well start comparing them to primaris units in impulsors, and then thanks to the +4inv the primaris become super resilient comparing to the devs or tacticals.

the tactic sounds as if it works only if the opponent over commits and the las roll real high on damge, and the opponent doesn't roll DR or inv, or doesn't have stacking minus to hit.

Karol wrote:
But if the tacs and dev squads take transports, even the cheapest rhinos, they no longer out perform primaris at same points, because the cost of the rhino that is needed for the grav units to function takes them over the point cost.

Depends on how you pack 'em in the transports, your targets, and how you leverage the positioning.

That sounds very oversimpliified in one sense but embellished in another sense. Seems like a fancy way to say alpha strike and pray.

I"m also concerned that I've never seen a top vanilla list run this way.

That is a too big complication, too many ifs and the army stops being good and working. A good army, like the old castellan armies or IH pre nerf or eldar flyers lists played soliter most of the time. That is why they were so good. It didn't matter what the opponent had, unless it was a mirror or some specific match ups.

Any army or tactics, that comes with a list of stuff that have to happen and have to be done, to work is a bad one. I mean it could fall apart by something is simple as bad rolling or being limited by the rule of 3, or not enough target saturation.

a castellan list didn't care what the opponent had. It was taller them most terrain, its two smash captins had a good chance of killing what ever they touched, including a castellan an opponent had, and the castellan had , at worse, a very good chance to hurt most resilient units in the game real bad, and normal stuff just died.

The whole, I attack, then I hurt, then I withdraw, sounds like a history book and not w40k. you can't do those things in one turn. You can't even do thos things if opponent goes first and alfa strikes you, or is flyer build and your short range guns start shoting at -2 or -3 to hit.

See? This is why I don't try. Have fun complaining about your respective armies over and over again.

You need to be more specific. You're talking in platitudes and generalities.

And my point about this not matching other successful marine lists stands. I think its just too fragile.

I mean, Insectum seems confident in his tactics - And frankly I have somewhere between a 60-80% winrate using similar tactics (rhinos + Tacs) with marked differences (I use salamanders with Las/Meltaguns as opposed to his ultramarines with L/P/G) .

These aren't just baby seals either - I play in tournaments against some top tier players, which does drop my WR down quiet a bit. I can win going second or first, although some match-ups definitely favor one or the other.

These lists thrive at adapting to enemy lists because each individual unit has an inherent level of versatility. Its not that I care if opponents bring specific units, its that I can easily adapt strategy based on what they have.

Lets take Attack/Hurt/Withdraw. A tactic that I have employed in many games - Disembark from the rhino, plug meltas where I can, bolters and grenade else where - Attack - If the meltas are in range to hit good targets, great, else focus on wearing down screens, leaving a few targets for charging- Hurt - Charge and wrap squads so that they can't get shot - Withdraw.

Clear what I can on his turn to disengage and press forward

I think it will make vehicles more competitive, like land speeders etc. Some already have abilities that negate the -1 to hit with heavy weapons if you moved, this simply gives all the others the same.

So, it improves vehicles, leaves infantry in pretty much the same position.

Single shot lascannons aren't bad at all. They could be if their platforms were BS4+ with no re-rolls or worse.

But marines are BS3+ with tons of re-rolls. That single lascannon actually hurts like it had a better rate of fire. Doctrine also gives it AP-4.

I also play with regular SW dudes, can't stand primaris and I'll never gonna buy them. Never disappointed, despite SW aren't as powerful as vanilla marines, not in the slightest.

But I wouldn't make a comparison between regular marines and primaris, as primaris really look more competitive. The point is regular marines are still good enough to do well anyway, even if something else in their codex outperforms them. They could only real struggle against a pure optimized primaris army, but I refuse to play marines vs marines since 5th edition, so not my problem

The new rule that negates the -1 to hit penalty on vehicles is actually pretty big for marines. Land speeders and assault cannon razorbacks come to mind instantly. But I can also move Bjorn at let him it fire with his full BS2+ now.

I love my dark angel tacticals with heavy weapons sitting in cover shooting with native rerrolls of 1's, even with lass cannons. Normally the enemy needs to put effort into killing them not because they are resilient but because I always put them outside were the objetives and action is.

Considering CSM did for a while run Lascannon spam, often on msu CSM, it's honestly not a bad weapon for a MSU squad even when not in reach for rerolls.

Sure the AC is overall better when you don't play gunline and just want to plink away at some Primaris or light vehicles and pts wise but it's not a bad setup for marines to be MSU with a heavy weapon.

Also in regards to the ML, it wasn't bad this edition, just slightly overpriced for the versatility it offered, i can imagine that the ML doesn't really hike but will get blast rules on it's fragments rockets, which would make it quite the rude awakening.

MLs have always overpaid for versatility that never mattered. I field them because they are traditional, and I’ve got a billion of them. (And at one point were free in tac squads). In my literal decades of fielding them and poping missiles downrange, only once have I not regretted using a frag. Bunch of gaunts in the open, tight pack, and the dice were kind. Every other time I see the ideal target (light infantry large group, dense) I’d (like a sucker) give it a shot. And maybe kill a guy. Should have just used a krack missile.

And if all I’m shooting is kracks, why not go with the LC?

(because I’m a traditionalist fluff monkey)

My point in the undercanffinated ramble is that MLs have always been priced like frags were a viable option, and they never have been. Hopefully the blast rule will help make it so we get the flexibility we’ve been paying for. If they do jack the price up, at least it might actually do it’s job and be overpriced. So at least be effective, is not efficient.

But what gun is “best” will depend on the dance of rules and points, like it always does.

Well I tipycally give 4 ML to long fangs instead of lascannons because I'm constantly struggling with points and 20 points for me are a big deal.

I don't bother with the frag profile since 5th edition but against anything but T8 the krack ML deals basically the same damage of a lascannon, and with plasma, other platforms for lascannons (Stormfang Gunship, Bjorn, Razorbacks), power fists/thunder hammers I can deal with T8 anyway.

The blast rule makes ML even better, but at 20ppm they are already pricey and they can't go up in points.

I'm a fan of the missile launcher. It looks cool, I like the optional of versatility. I just wish the frag profile was a little beefier.

Vilehydra wrote:
I mean, Insectum seems confident in his tactics - And frankly I have somewhere between a 60-80% winrate using similar tactics (rhinos + Tacs) with marked differences (I use salamanders with Las/Meltaguns as opposed to his ultramarines with L/P/G) .

These aren't just baby seals either - I play in tournaments against some top tier players, which does drop my WR down quiet a bit. I can win going second or first, although some match-ups definitely favor one or the other.

These lists thrive at adapting to enemy lists because each individual unit has an inherent level of versatility. Its not that I care if opponents bring specific units, its that I can easily adapt strategy based on what they have.

Lets take Attack/Hurt/Withdraw. A tactic that I have employed in many games - Disembark from the rhino, plug meltas where I can, bolters and grenade else where - Attack - If the meltas are in range to hit good targets, great, else focus on wearing down screens, leaving a few targets for charging- Hurt - Charge and wrap squads so that they can't get shot - Withdraw.

Clear what I can on his turn to disengage and press forward

In a well-balanced game, I'd agree more. But meltas are awful as currently implemented. Also wrapping with fly isn't trivial. I don't think it can be reliable upon without it unless you are a horde. I'm pretty confident in my wrapping assessment because that's my entire codex. Also, salamanders at least have a defensive ability. Using oldbois with gear is triple downing on glass cannon status to me.

I just don't see how 1W oldbois with expensive gear can outlast anyone. So expensive, and so fragile.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blackie wrote:
Single shot lascannons aren't bad at all. They could be if their platforms were BS4+ with no re-rolls or worse.

But marines are BS3+ with tons of re-rolls. That single lascannon actually hurts like it had a better rate of fire. Doctrine also gives it AP-4.

I also play with regular SW dudes, can't stand primaris and I'll never gonna buy them. Never disappointed, despite SW aren't as powerful as vanilla marines, not in the slightest.

But I wouldn't make a comparison between regular marines and primaris, as primaris really look more competitive. The point is regular marines are still good enough to do well anyway, even if something else in their codex outperforms them. They could only real struggle against a pure optimized primaris army, but I refuse to play marines vs marines since 5th edition, so not my problem

The new rule that negates the -1 to hit penalty on vehicles is actually pretty big for marines. Land speeders and assault cannon razorbacks come to mind instantly. But I can also move Bjorn at let him it fire with his full BS2+ now.

No, it really doesn't. Go do the math on a single lascannon. The AP doesn't matter too often for my taste and its price tag. Rerolling 1s you get 0.77*0.77*3.5 (the best we can do)= 2 W. Or 1.4 W vs a 5++ or 2+. That's paying for a captain babysitter, an LT babysitter and the expensive ass lascannon.

 Blackie wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:


and while move-and-fire at -1 with heavies isn't that bad on it's own, it does cause issue with BS4+ and 5+ armies, especially when their vehicles/Monsters are supposed to be mobile fire support. If you get dropped to hitting less than half shots whil moving, you are not mobile fire support(guard, Taj, Admech, Nids and stealer cults, DEldar, CEldar, and Orks to some degree, basically most armies).

Most of those armies aren't affect at all by the penalty though. Orks don't have a single vehicle that suffers that -1 penalty, there's basically just the gunwagon, which doesn't want to move anyway (it'll lose the ability to shoot twice), while drukhari's vehicles never suffer that penalty as "heavy weapons" become "assault weapons" if mounted on vehicles and coven monsters have assault or rapid fire weapons. Guard tanks have long range weapons and couldn't care less about moving, etc...

Guard: Sentinels. that should be all, but no; Russes often want to move, at least mine do.

Orks: Kila cans, and any of the Battlewagon variants, not just the gun wagon can have the old Big gunz, Mek Gunz(if you need to move) Wazzbomb blastjet.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:


Guard: Sentinels. that should be all, but no; Russes often want to move, at least mine do.

Orks: Kila cans, and any of the Battlewagon variants, not just the gun wagon can have the old Big gunz, Mek Gunz(if you need to move) Wazzbomb blastjet.

Possibly Flash Gitz on a Trukk since "modifiers that apply to the Trukk apply to the unit".

 Kommissar Kel wrote:


Orks: Kila cans, and any of the Battlewagon variants, not just the gun wagon can have the old Big gunz, Mek Gunz(if you need to move) Wazzbomb blastjet.

Only one heavy weapon for kanz though, and that's the crappiest one. No one take grotzookas since ages. BWs of any kind never take a big gun, even if they actually can, in fact they even usually avoid the assault weapons as their only purpose is to transport units as fast as possible towards the enemy and ram something. They just don't have synergy.

Mek gunz, like you russes, may need to move only if they don't get any visuals on a target, but they have enough range to aim at everything, especially with the new smaller table's size. There's also no need to hide them (if you actually can) since it's impossible to hide the entire army and they're among the toughest models orks have considering their points value: if they soak shots instead of something more valuable, good for the ork player.

The blastajet has already got in its profile a rule that allows it to move and ignore the penalty for firing heavy weapons.

Seriously, the -1 penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons is basically never in play for orks vehicles. Tipycally only flash gitz may suffer it, but they're infantry so they'll keep the penalty anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:


Possibly Flash Gitz on a Trukk since "modifiers that apply to the Trukk apply to the unit".

No, the gitz are shooting, not the trukk. That -1 to hit doesn't affect the trukk.

Martel732 wrote:
No, it really doesn't. Go do the math on a single lascannon. The AP doesn't matter too often for my taste and its price tag. Rerolling 1s you get 0.77*0.77*3.5 (the best we can do)= 2 W. Or 1.4 W vs a 5++ or 2+. That's paying for a captain babysitter, an LT babysitter and the expensive ass lascannon.

Oath Relic = full re-rolls against a single target. So .888 x .888 x 3.5 = 2.75. On a Venerable Dreadnought or Signumed Devastator it's .96 x .888 x 3.5 for 2.98. Capatain and Lt. re-rolls for a Venerable is 2.6. Double Lascannon and Missile Launcher in that setup net you 7.38 total against REQ. Full rerolls get you to 8.4, a one shot Dreadnought or Carnifex kill.

Orrr, my favorite, 10 Razorbacks with Twin Lascannon and Hunter Killer get 65 wounds against a Leman Russ Equivalent, haha. For 1160 points plus a charachter to hold the relic. That was my go-to theory-build for knocking out a Castellan for a while. I don't quite have the models for that. . . yet.