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Everything does look better at BS 2+, which is partially why I don't think marines should have it on any unit. Seem more appropriate for Eldar and Tau.

Martel732 wrote:
Everything does look better at BS 2+, which is partially why I don't think marines should have it on any unit. Seem more appropriate for Eldar and Tau.

2nd Ed Dreadnought had that sweet BS of 6 and a Targeter for a base of 0 to hit.

Martel732 wrote:
Everything does look better at BS 2+, which is partially why I don't think marines should have it on any unit. Seem more appropriate for Eldar and Tau.

Yeah let the shooting armies shoot even better, jesus you think before you post sometimes?

 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Everything does look better at BS 2+, which is partially why I don't think marines should have it on any unit. Seem more appropriate for Eldar and Tau.

2nd Ed Dreadnought had that sweet BS of 6 and a Targeter for a base of 0 to hit.

Doesn't mean I agree with it. Eldar and Tau should have better targeting than marines in my view.


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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Everything does look better at BS 2+, which is partially why I don't think marines should have it on any unit. Seem more appropriate for Eldar and Tau.

Yeah let the shooting armies shoot even better, jesus you think before you post sometimes?

They should shoot better than marines. And pay for it. Are you thinking before you post?

Martel732 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Everything does look better at BS 2+, which is partially why I don't think marines should have it on any unit. Seem more appropriate for Eldar and Tau.

2nd Ed Dreadnought had that sweet BS of 6 and a Targeter for a base of 0 to hit.

Doesn't mean I agree with it. Eldar and Tau should have better targeting than marines in my view.

Why, after griping about Lascannon inneffectiveness, are you now griping about platforms that make Lascannons more effective?

 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Everything does look better at BS 2+, which is partially why I don't think marines should have it on any unit. Seem more appropriate for Eldar and Tau.

2nd Ed Dreadnought had that sweet BS of 6 and a Targeter for a base of 0 to hit.

Doesn't mean I agree with it. Eldar and Tau should have better targeting than marines in my view.

Why, after griping about Lascannon inneffectiveness, are you now griping about platforms that make Lascannons more effective?

bsw
Because they don't make the lascannon itself better conceptually. It's pushing the math from the wrong end imo. BS 2+ and reroll armada also just helps the mid str high RoF weapons just as much.

It's a valuable tool against heavy targets at longer ranges. As much as you complain about -3 save mod being without value, it remains the weapon of choice against those pesky Leman Russ Command tanks or the ever growing amount of Repulsor-chassis vehicles out there, being about three times as effective against such targets than the Autocannon, for not 3x more the cost, not accounting for the platform, which makes the Autocannon even less lethal for the points.

I assume 5++ or 4++ on all targets. There's no other way to roll in my view. Because if you don't, and those show up, all your fancy AP goes down the toilet. And you paid out the ass for it because GW. Admittedly, -3 AP is not as readily wasted as -4 and above, but its really a RoF issue for me. And only one damage reroll per turn.

Theoretical simple scenario with Devastators to illustrate my point:
5 Devs, 4 Autocannons, 105 points.
5 Devs, 4 Lascannons, 165 points.

Against T8 3+.
Autocannons 4x.666x.333x.5x2 = 1.77 wounds (2.66 wounds vs. T7)
Lascannons 4x.666x.666x.83 = 5.15 wounds

So 60% more points including the platform, but a 3X return in wounds. You kill these common, high damage output targets waaay faster, even for the cost. Plus, the wounding on 3+ gives the common reroll-1s more benefit, since you reroll half your fails, and succeed the reroll 2/3ds of the time. As a bonus to that once a turn you can reroll a pesky 1 that comes up on your damage if you want. In my book, far, faaar superior to the Autocannon.


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Martel732 wrote:
I assume 5++ or 4++ on all targets. There's no other way to roll in my view. Because if you don't, and those show up, all your fancy AP goes down the toilet. And you paid out the ass for it because GW. Admittedly, -3 AP is not as readily wasted as -4 and above, but its really a RoF issue for me. And only one damage reroll per turn.

A 5++ is easily in-cover anyways. The 4++ hurts a bit, but not enough to disregard all the non-invuln things that I commonly see.

Against the T8 4++, the four Lascannons make 3.1 wounds, which is STILL more effective than the Autocannon for the cost.

T8 is the best possible scenario for the lascannons though. Replace with Drukhari raiders and cry. And I'd rather have 105 pt tied up in 5 wounds than 165. Your opponent gets a turn, too.

4++ more than hurts a bit. It basically neuters all AP based approaches into the ground.

Basically I'm hedging my bets and you are assuming the best possible scenario. imo.

 Blackie wrote:


No, the gitz are shooting, not the trukk. That -1 to hit doesn't affect the trukk.

Well, I mean the Gitz didn't move. The Trukk itself doesn't get a penalty for move and shoot with heavies (any longer). So in a gamey sense they don't either? Maybe? I dunno.

Devs can have autocannons?

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Devs can have autocannons?

No, but chaos can. I don't use devs because I don't like any of their weapons. Not sure I'd use AC devs, but I'd be more likely to use them than any of the other weapons.

Martel732 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Devs can have autocannons?

No, but chaos can. I don't use devs because I don't like any of their weapons. Not sure I'd use AC devs, but I'd be more likely to use them than any of the other weapons.

Hmm ok, but then why not said Havoc's...

Also gun is also only as goo as what it is on. No one is going to take Lascannons on Marines anyways b.c marines die in a second. Maybe in 9th with better cover rules and some LoS blocking.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Devs can have autocannons?

No, but chaos can. I don't use devs because I don't like any of their weapons. Not sure I'd use AC devs, but I'd be more likely to use them than any of the other weapons.

Hmm ok, but then why not said Havoc's...

Also gun is also only as goo as what it is on. No one is going to take Lascannons on Marines anyways b.c marines die in a second. Maybe in 9th with better cover rules and some LoS blocking.

Not according to Insectum. That's my second biggest reason. The platform is awful.

Martel732 wrote:
T8 is the best possible scenario for the lascannons though. Replace with Drukhari raiders and cry. And I'd rather have 105 pt tied up in 5 wounds than 165. Your opponent gets a turn, too.

4++ more than hurts a bit. It basically neuters all AP based approaches into the ground.

Basically I'm hedging my bets and you are assuming the best possible scenario. imo.

Yeah for DE this is 100% not the case, DE DL's are bad compare to DC (well they are actually equal, and better or worst very slightly against certain things. But b.c a Lance is 1 shot and DC is 3, DC is now a TAC weapon that always works).


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Martel732 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Devs can have autocannons?

No, but chaos can. I don't use devs because I don't like any of their weapons. Not sure I'd use AC devs, but I'd be more likely to use them than any of the other weapons.

Hmm ok, but then why not said Havoc's...

Also gun is also only as goo as what it is on. No one is going to take Lascannons on Marines anyways b.c marines die in a second. Maybe in 9th with better cover rules and some LoS blocking.

Not according to Insectum. That's my second biggest reason. The platform is awful.

LOL If he is playing with a dev squad with Lscannons, that unit is dead turn 1 vs anything i play no matter what, b.c its a easy kill for 1, and second it gets ride of something that is somewhat threatening. So i'll be happy to play him with him Devs anyday. There is a reason i like SoB Rets with HB, super cheap and still effective, in cover a lot of times i outrange with them doing pop shots and never getting shot at.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
T8 is the best possible scenario for the lascannons though. Replace with Drukhari raiders and cry. And I'd rather have 105 pt tied up in 5 wounds than 165. Your opponent gets a turn, too.

4++ more than hurts a bit. It basically neuters all AP based approaches into the ground.

Basically I'm hedging my bets and you are assuming the best possible scenario. imo.

Yeah for DE this is 100% not the case, DE DL's are bad compare to DC (well they are actually equal, and better or worst very slightly against certain things. But b.c a Lance is 1 shot and DC is 3, DC is now a TAC weapon that always works).

That's my point. Marines just don't have anything as good as a dissy cannon.


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He's got them in transports.

Martel732 wrote:
T8 is the best possible scenario for the lascannons though. Replace with Drukhari raiders and cry. And I'd rather have 105 pt tied up in 5 wounds than 165. Your opponent gets a turn, too.

4++ more than hurts a bit. It basically neuters all AP based approaches into the ground.

Basically I'm hedging my bets and you are assuming the best possible scenario. imo.

Or T8 is common in my meta, and I don't only take Lascannons. Las outperforms the Autocannon against probably 90% of vehicles/monsters I see. A Drukari Raider is a far more special case than T7 and T8. And I just did the math vs 4++, where the Las outperforms the Autocannon.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
T8 is the best possible scenario for the lascannons though. Replace with Drukhari raiders and cry. And I'd rather have 105 pt tied up in 5 wounds than 165. Your opponent gets a turn, too.

4++ more than hurts a bit. It basically neuters all AP based approaches into the ground.

Basically I'm hedging my bets and you are assuming the best possible scenario. imo.

Or T8 is common in my meta, and I don't only take Lascannons. Las outperforms the Autocannon against probably 90% of vehicles/monsters I see. A Drukari Raider is a far more special case than T7 and T8. And I just did the math vs 4++, where the Las outperforms the Autocannon.

Does it outperform it enough though? I guess I just don't care about T7 and T8. I care about invulns taking away my AP. I still face a lot of demons/drukhari before the lockdown. I'd say 66% of games where I splurge for AP weapons, it backfires. Now a lot of that is melta, but still.

In my view, marines can't afford to pay for AP they aren't getting. Maybe they can now, but it doesn't seem to work for BA at all.

Well then realize it's a meta-dependent situation and call it a day. I see Nids, Primaris, IG, Chaos, Custodes most commonly. We had a Ynnari soup player but he swapped to Chaos in the last year. But for Raiders the Stalker is ready-made tool for the job, and Las only barely underperforms the Autocannon against the Raider, so it's a hard sell to give them up when so far superior against the other armies I commonly face.

I still feel like I'd rather not have my lascannons on 1W bodies. If I were to use such a weapon.

Martel732 wrote:
I still feel like I'd rather not have my lascannons on 1W bodies. If I were to use such a weapon.

Then don't. I often don't. Lascannons are available on a huge array of platforms while Grav and Plasma are more limited. Both of those are only readily spammed on 1W models, and both are cheaper than Lascannons. My Lascannons are often on Razorbacks, and sometimes Tac squads that I expect to sit back.

Yeah I don't use tacs or razorbacks. I'm trying to think of a unit I use that can actually take one. It's been a long time since I fielded a lascannon. Sad because I have 6 razorbacks. None have TL lascannon though.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Blackie wrote:


No, the gitz are shooting, not the trukk. That -1 to hit doesn't affect the trukk.

Well, I mean the Gitz didn't move. The Trukk itself doesn't get a penalty for move and shoot with heavies (any longer). So in a gamey sense they don't either? Maybe? I dunno.

But the point is that the trukk doesn't have heavy weapons, the gitz do. If a trukk moved the unit embarked still counts as it has moved as well. The new heavy rule simply says that only infantries get a -1 to hit penalty if the move, not that vehicles can move and count as they were stationary. The trukk never gets the penalty in the first place. Unless there is some specific rule in the 9th rulebook about transports and units embarked that clearly states that units embarked don't count as moved as long as they stay inside, the gitz will get the penalty if their vehicle moves. In 8th if the vehicle moves, the unit cannot disembark and move because it counts like they already moved.




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 Amishprn86 wrote:


LOL If he is playing with a dev squad with Lscannons, that unit is dead turn 1 vs anything i play no matter what, b.c its a easy kill for 1, and second it gets ride of something that is somewhat threatening. So i'll be happy to play him with him Devs anyday. There is a reason i like SoB Rets with HB, super cheap and still effective, in cover a lot of times i outrange with them doing pop shots and never getting shot at.

True, that's why I embark my long fangs in a razorback (in a vehicle heavy list), so they are protected if I don't go first and they can shoot without penalties via stratagem anyway. Outflank work on them as well.


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Martel732 wrote:
Yeah I don't use tacs or razorbacks. I'm trying to think of a unit I use that can actually take one. It's been a long time since I fielded a lascannon. Sad because I have 6 razorbacks. None have TL lascannon though.

I always take all the 3 that I have, joined by the gunship and tipycally by a crusader as well (although it doesn't have lascannons, but it does provide saturation). Mostly equipped with twin ass cannons in 8th, in the last year only twin lascannon though due to meta shift. It's super easy to magnetize their weapons, the only problem is the lack of assault cannons in their kit, but they can be obtained by buying them from bitz sites or looking for spared bitz into termies or dreads kits.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:


and while move-and-fire at -1 with heavies isn't that bad on it's own, it does cause issue with BS4+ and 5+ armies, especially when their vehicles/Monsters are supposed to be mobile fire support. If you get dropped to hitting less than half shots whil moving, you are not mobile fire support(guard, Taj, Admech, Nids and stealer cults, DEldar, CEldar, and Orks to some degree, basically most armies).

Most of those armies aren't affect at all by the penalty though. Orks don't have a single vehicle that suffers that -1 penalty, there's basically just the gunwagon, which doesn't want to move anyway (it'll lose the ability to shoot twice), while drukhari's vehicles never suffer that penalty as "heavy weapons" become "assault weapons" if mounted on vehicles and coven monsters have assault or rapid fire weapons. Guard tanks have long range weapons and couldn't care less about moving, etc...

Guard: Sentinels. that should be all, but no; Russes often want to move, at least mine do.

Orks: Kila cans, and any of the Battlewagon variants, not just the gun wagon can have the old Big gunz, Mek Gunz(if you need to move) Wazzbomb blastjet.

Let's clean up the fact here a bit:
All battlewagon variants, kill tanks and the big trakk have the mobile fortress rule and ignore penalties for shooting heavy weapons. A gun wagon can still shoot twice when moving at half speed, it doesn't need to stand still.
The Wazbomm Blastajet has Mekbrain-enhanced Weapon-sights which ignores heavy weapon penalties in addition to giving the smasha +1 to hit.
Nauts, stompas and the meka dread have big 'n stompy, which ignores penalties among other things.

The only heavy weapon on kanz, grot tanks and grot mega-tanks is the grotzooka, which is worse than a big shoota right now, and even with the blast rule isn't exactly something you would spend 10 points on.
Mek guns and big guns can now move at full speed and shoot which is... 3"

So the only models to actually benefit from being able to move and shoot freely are the Big Mek on Warbike(legends) with a SAG, both squiggoths and the chinork who comes with two free deff guns (same weapon as lootas).
Outside of those models, only Badrukk, flash gits, lootas and the SAG have heavy weapons, all other ork vehicles and bikes are exclusively armed with assault weapons and pistols.

So while I agree with the original post, orks don't really give a gak about heavy weapons on vehicles. What's way more interesting is whether passengers of transports suffer penalties or not.

Well, i mean it'd be funny to see flashgitz driveby's.

Certainly not OP but still fun as hell to imagine some goldy wannabees in a heap of scrap driving around and dakkaing everything they see.

 Blackie wrote:
If a trukk moved the unit embarked still counts as it has moved as well.

Is that a new rule for 9th? I can't find it for 8th. If I'm missing it I'll happily be corrected if you could point me to it.

Drager wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
If a trukk moved the unit embarked still counts as it has moved as well.

Is that a new rule for 9th? I can't find it for 8th. If I'm missing it I'll happily be corrected if you could point me to it.

Its an 8th rule and 100% will be a 9th rule even if they didn't say yet.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Drager wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
If a trukk moved the unit embarked still counts as it has moved as well.

Is that a new rule for 9th? I can't find it for 8th. If I'm missing it I'll happily be corrected if you could point me to it.

Its an 8th rule and 100% will be a 9th rule even if they didn't say yet.

Could you point me to the rule? I can't find it. I've checked the battle primer and the open topped rule in my codex

Q: If a transport moves, do any models embarked inside it count
as also having moved?
A: Yes.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/30ead283.pdf