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Kayback wrote:
Am I the only one who doesn't get the heavy Gothic aesthetic of the Primaris?

In the old Marines you're entering a 10 000 year history of venerated relics and technology that's bordering on Cargo Cult, you don't know any better because the mysticism surrounding both the tech and the relics is ingrained deeply into the ethos of the Chapter you are joining. You have relics, you have saints and iconography, history and everything that you're joining.

Along come Primaris. New out the vat with brand new equipment but the iconography and traditions of ages past?

Seems.... Illogical.

Still this vat thing... Can't we already be done with this misinformation? Maybe read a marine codex or something?

The Primaris are now just normal marines, recruited and trained by the chapters, and have been for over a century. Also, some are upgraded older marines. Only the first batch were from Mars, and they were not vat-grown either.

Maybe I wasn't clear, but as a new recruit or especially on planets that tithe recruits you're joining an old institution. You're brought up into that institution and molded by it.

As a fully fledged Marine with battle gear that's newer than they are using, stepping into the field then I don't see the old traditions being maintained.

New traditions may be built up over time, but that's something you can see. Cain's book talks about that, doing away with the 301 + 296 traditions and building traditions as the 597th. While that isn't really the same having a flood of new members who aren't recruits molded by the Chapter... I just don't see the old traditions surviving that.

Yet the Primaris seem to have doubled down on the GrimDarkGothic.



Even these guys


When you compare it to the "streamlined" fighty Marines:


I dunno. It just seems like they rolled in the bits box of icons, relics, skulls and spare armour pieces as opposed to a newly developed and deployed fighting force.

 Crimson wrote:

Still this vat thing... Can't we already be done with this misinformation? Maybe read a marine codex or something?

The Primaris are now just normal marines, recruited and trained by the chapters, and have been for over a century. Also, some are upgraded older marines. Only the first batch were from Mars, and they were not vat-grown either.

I'll grant you the "vat thing" was hyperbole and maybe I overused it. But the initial influx was definitely not reared in the Chapter.

Kayback wrote:
Maybe I wasn't clear, but as a new recruit or especially on planets that tithe recruits you're joining an old institution. You're brought up into that institution and molded by it.

Yes, and that is what the current primaris are.

As a fully fledged Marine with battle gear that's newer than they are using, stepping into the field then I don't see the old traditions being maintained.

in an nutshell - the entirety of human society in 40K is GrimDarkGothic, not just the old space marines.

Crispy78 wrote:
40K is GrimDarkGothic, not just the old space marines.

Yeah but the Primaris seem to have taken it to 11, for no real reason.

But maybe I'm just over thinking it. I was enjoying the sleeker, more focused fighting aspect look of the Primaris. Now they seem almost like a caricature of the legacy Marines.

Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:Sure. I've always thought of the UM as being pretty decked out in glitz, though, and DA as being shadowy Illuminati in cloaks with like obscured markings kind of guys.

Plenty of Chapters are decked out in finery - Dark Angels included. They're still a very proud Chapter, but it's more of an aloof, detached pride. Deathwing Terminators, for example, definitely have their glitz and glam.

In all fairness, MOST Chapters have a great deal of bling for their Veteran units (which is what the Bladeguard are), the real question being what form that bling takes - Chapters like the Space Wolves and White Scars will absolutely have bling and personal markings, but in a different fashion - furs, topknots, hanging skulls and totems, etc. Looking at the Bladeguard, it's really only the tabard, helmet, and shield shape that don't look super congruous with the Wolves and Scars - a thin layer of green stuff over the top of the tabard with a fur texture, a more rounded shield, and a bare head from an upgrade sprue would go a long way.

Some examples I've found of photoshopping other Chapters onto the examples we've seen look promising:

I definitely don't think the glitz on the bladeguard is very space wolf looking. I'll probably have to find a way to convert them to have axes and roundshields or something suitably vikingry.

Honestly, a furred tabard, a headswap, and shield would be enough for my tastes.

Nevelon wrote:

Kayback wrote:
Am I the only one who doesn't get the heavy Gothic aesthetic of the Primaris?

In the old Marines you're entering a 10 000 year history of venerated relics and technology that's bordering on Cargo Cult, you don't know any better because the mysticism surrounding both the tech and the relics is ingrained deeply into the ethos of the Chapter you are joining. You have relics, you have saints and iconography, history and everything that you're joining.

Along come Primaris. New out the vat with brand new equipment but the iconography and traditions of ages past?

Seems.... Illogical.

Keep in mind that while the chapters are ancient, the marines themselves are not. Cassius is the oldest Ultramarine, and is 400 years old (ish, depending on timeline) and has seen multiple chapter masters.

IIRC the indominus crusade was a lengthy affair. You have primaris marines who might have started vat-fresh, but after 100 years fighting alongside their brothers, earned their veterancy. So why would a chapter not treat them the same way they would the rest of their kin? The old relics might not fit, but the chapter’s techmarines and artisans can work something up to match the valor of their larger brothers. Might incorperate fragments of old stuff, or new-forged to match the nature of the primaris.

Exactly - Primaris might be "new" on a galactic scale, but when they were introduced, they're be plenty of non-Primaris being inducted at the same time, and still will be non-Primaris inducted during and after the Indomitus Crusade. By this point in the timeline, Primaris Marines are, by and large, well integrated into their Chapters, and would be honoured respectively - and we know how Space Marines like to bling up their Veterans.

Kayback wrote:I was enjoying the sleeker, more focused fighting aspect look of the Primaris. Now they seem almost like a caricature of the legacy Marines.

You're comparing Bladeguard Veterans to line troopers. You'd have the same thing if you were comparing Sternguard Veterans to Tactical Marines - Veterans get all the bling, whereas the baseline Marines get minimal amounts of bling.

This isn't a "Primaris are all too blingy!" case - you're looking at explicitly Veteran units, and expecting them to look like regular troops, which is something that the Marine aesthetic doesn't really do.

If you start considering that the Bladeguard are probably First Company Vets (or in that echelon), them being so blinged up makes a lot of sense. They don't represent the rank-and-file, who *do* have that focused aspect. If you want that sleek, unadorned look, don't take any Bladeguard Vets, or convert some.

I was excited for new models for my marines, I might buy the bikes and maybe a Judiciar but most of the other models are pretty uninteresting for me. The new invaders seems pretty terrible and I am not planning on buying them at all.

 Crimson wrote:

Kayback wrote:
Am I the only one who doesn't get the heavy Gothic aesthetic of the Primaris?

In the old Marines you're entering a 10 000 year history of venerated relics and technology that's bordering on Cargo Cult, you don't know any better because the mysticism surrounding both the tech and the relics is ingrained deeply into the ethos of the Chapter you are joining. You have relics, you have saints and iconography, history and everything that you're joining.

Along come Primaris. New out the vat with brand new equipment but the iconography and traditions of ages past?

Seems.... Illogical.

Still this vat thing... Can't we already be done with this misinformation? Maybe read a marine codex or something?

The Primaris are now just normal marines, recruited and trained by the chapters, and have been for over a century. Also, some are upgraded older marines. Only the first batch were from Mars, and they were not vat-grown either.

So, every single Cawl-made Primaris is dead?

I'm not disagreeing with you, but that is what you are implying. There are bound to be plenty of them left still in the chapters.

 Grimtuff wrote:

So, every single Cawl-made Primaris is dead?

I'm not disagreeing with you, but that is what you are implying. There are bound to be plenty of them left still in the chapters.

Overwhelming majority will be normally recruited ones, and when we are talking about the chapter culture then that's what matters.

Cawl's initial Primaris are weird.

The Awoken(the title given to them in the Codex Space Marines fluff) were heavily indoctrinated and basically intended for one of the specific roles(Close Support, Battleline, Fire Support). Most are implied to have been recruited from the ranks of initiates from the Legions, experimented upon for the Primaris treatments and then put into stasis if it was successful. They're what formed the ranks of Intercessors, Hellblasters, Reivers, and Aggressors early on. Since their integration with their parent Chapters, they retain the roles they had but most are starting to adopt Chapter quirks.

pm713 wrote:
Having seen the new turret/quadbike my mind has definitely changed. I went from "I'm not a fan but they look alright" to "they're awful and I hate them".

The only new thing I've seen recently I like is the Starcraft ripoff.

OK so idk if YOU know this but Starcraft was an original comissioned by GamesWorkshop as a standalone game, but then they backed out of the project and the company (Blizzard PRETTY sure) ran with it and remade some of the assets. So to call it a "Starcraft" ripoff would be like calling LEGO a ripoff of MEGABLOX or ROBLOX a ripoff of Minecraft.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm really excited for the new Chaplain model and am a huge fan of the Lieutenant with the shield and the shield models. I don't run any melee units in my Imperial Fist list, but that LT + those shield units makes me want to throw them on the board and walk them up with Tor Gardon or the other guy and just smash. Not a fan of the bikes though, never have been they just don't FEEL right? Like they have hover tech why not integrate that into the bikes....

 Kanluwen wrote:
Cawl's initial Primaris are weird.

The Awoken(the title given to them in the Codex Space Marines fluff) were heavily indoctrinated and basically intended for one of the specific roles(Close Support, Battleline, Fire Support). Most are implied to have been recruited from the ranks of initiates from the Legions, experimented upon for the Primaris treatments and then put into stasis if it was successful. They're what formed the ranks of Intercessors, Hellblasters, Reivers, and Aggressors early on. Since their integration with their parent Chapters, they retain the roles they had but most are starting to adopt Chapter quirks.

They sort of referenced this in the Warhammer Daily today when they were talking about the new Primaris having all the bling; the wave from Cawl at the beginning of the Crusade were basically just dropped into their Chapters, where as by now, the Indomitus Crusade has been going for 200 years, so they've absorbed the culture of their chapters and in most cases are fully integrated, hence more chapter specific customization of armour and weapons.

Whether you like the changing aesthetic or not, I do think it's cool that it is actually linked to the story and that it is a conscious design choice, rather than just a "Hey, lets try something wacky- how about bones on the shield?"

Okay. It's a HALO ripoff. Better?

Rahdok wrote:

OK so idk if YOU know this but Starcraft was an original comissioned by GamesWorkshop as a standalone game, but then they backed out of the project and the company (Blizzard PRETTY sure) ran with it and remade some of the assets. So to call it a "Starcraft" ripoff would be like calling LEGO a ripoff of MEGABLOX or ROBLOX a ripoff of Minecraft.

This is not true. When initially planning Warcraft, Blizzard was negotiating with GW for a Warhammer Fantasy licence. Blizzard didn't manage to acquire licence, but had already made some art assets, and decided to make the game anyway, thus Warcraft was born. And as ripping-off GW had worked well for them, Blizzard later decided to rip-off 40K too, and made Starcraft. But there weren't any negotiations with GW then.

Kanluwen wrote:Cawl's initial Primaris are weird.

The Awoken(the title given to them in the Codex Space Marines fluff) were heavily indoctrinated and basically intended for one of the specific roles(Close Support, Battleline, Fire Support). Most are implied to have been recruited from the ranks of initiates from the Legions, experimented upon for the Primaris treatments and then put into stasis if it was successful. They're what formed the ranks of Intercessors, Hellblasters, Reivers, and Aggressors early on. Since their integration with their parent Chapters, they retain the roles they had but most are starting to adopt Chapter quirks.

Pretty much, yeah. Another distinction is that the first batch of Primaris weren't actually trained for any role other than the one they were assigned to. Aka, if you were trained as an Intercessor, you would only fight as an Intercessor. This is in contrast to the later batches of Primaris, who were trained to take on any role, and utilise the modular nature of their armour more fully.

And yes, while the initial batches of Primaris were more generic (although they definitely had strong knowledge and some traits of their original Legions), when they became more fully integrated into the Chapters, they took on far more features and styles from their new family.

Think of it sort of like the Clone army in Star Wars - the initial Phase I Clones had very little individuality and had very plain, unmarked armour, with only Legion commanders having coloured markings. However, as the war grew on, clones grew more individualistic, made personalised markings, and increasingly took on nicknames, and even the way ranks and Legions were identified on the battlefield changed. I imagine a similar thing is occurring with Primaris Marines from that first batch.

 Crimson wrote:

Rahdok wrote:

OK so idk if YOU know this but Starcraft was an original comissioned by GamesWorkshop as a standalone game, but then they backed out of the project and the company (Blizzard PRETTY sure) ran with it and remade some of the assets. So to call it a "Starcraft" ripoff would be like calling LEGO a ripoff of MEGABLOX or ROBLOX a ripoff of Minecraft.

This is not true. When initially planning Warcraft, Blizzard was negotiating with GW for a Warhammer Fantasy licence. Blizzard didn't manage to acquire licence, but had already made some art assets, and decided to make the game anyway, thus Warcraft was born. And as ripping-off GW had worked well for them, Blizzard later decided to rip-off 40K too, and made Starcraft. But there weren't any negotiations with GW then.

I think it worked out for Blizzard.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:


Think of it sort of like the Clone army in Star Wars - the initial Phase I Clones had very little individuality and had very plain, unmarked armour, with only Legion commanders having coloured markings. However, as the war grew on, clones grew more individualistic, made personalised markings, and increasingly took on nicknames, and even the way ranks and Legions were identified on the battlefield changed. I imagine a similar thing is occurring with Primaris Marines from that first batch.

Huh. Good point.

Kayback wrote:
Maybe I wasn't clear, but as a new recruit or especially on planets that tithe recruits you're joining an old institution. You're brought up into that institution and molded by it.

As a fully fledged Marine with battle gear that's newer than they are using, stepping into the field then I don't see the old traditions being maintained.

New traditions may be built up over time, but that's something you can see. Cain's book talks about that, doing away with the 301 + 296 traditions and building traditions as the 597th. While that isn't really the same having a flood of new members who aren't recruits molded by the Chapter... I just don't see the old traditions surviving that.

Yet the Primaris seem to have doubled down on the GrimDarkGothic.



Even these guys


When you compare it to the "streamlined" fighty Marines:


I dunno. It just seems like they rolled in the bits box of icons, relics, skulls and spare armour pieces as opposed to a newly developed and deployed fighting force.

 Crimson wrote:

Still this vat thing... Can't we already be done with this misinformation? Maybe read a marine codex or something?

The Primaris are now just normal marines, recruited and trained by the chapters, and have been for over a century. Also, some are upgraded older marines. Only the first batch were from Mars, and they were not vat-grown either.

I'll grant you the "vat thing" was hyperbole and maybe I overused it. But the initial influx was definitely not reared in the Chapter.

I think it's important to remember that Primaris are nothing more than a long and worded attempt at replacing the marine range.

Make no mistake, while the result has been to dress everything up in fancy language and rewrite aspects of the lore, the end goal is that marines are now taller. Nothing more, nothing less. So it makes sense that they are starting to look like their older cousins rather than some new sleek weird design. They sell well, the product has been proven so now GW will take to adding in the bits that make marines look like marines.

To be honest I wish GW had just squatted the old marines and re-released them. At this rate it's taken nearly 3 years to get Primaris armies to be almost playable outside of super fluff games. Designing a thematic army is extremely difficult because huge swaths of roles are left unfilled and we don't know what is coming year to year.

Also, at this point we've had a major Marine release each year since launch. For a time we all thought it was going to follow the armor patterns, Phobos/Gravis, Etc. But it looks like that will not be the case (at least not in order) which I find to be interesting. We're still missing a Primaris MBT, Jump Pack Infantry and some a lot of characters (Where is out tech marine?).

But you can't use your classic marines as the new tall marines. And armies that can't take primaris get no updates, even when GW says that marines get a ton of updates.

And it doesn't look as if in the future people are going to be able to use their classic models at all. That doesn't seem to have been the case in the past. I have seen people play with really small rhinos, with oblits that are the size of my strike marines.
So even if one ignores the lore, people still aren't happy about the change. Not many people want to rebuy a whole army, just because GW decided marines should be taller and have bigger bases.

You don't consider the repulsor executioner to be a MBT?

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
You don't consider the repulsor executioner to be a MBT?

Fair, I supposed. I mean a Predator equivalent though, no transport capacity.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:
But you can't use your classic marines as the new tall marines. And armies that can't take primaris get no updates, even when GW says that marines get a ton of updates.

And it doesn't look as if in the future people are going to be able to use their classic models at all. That doesn't seem to have been the case in the past. I have seen people play with really small rhinos, with oblits that are the size of my strike marines.
So even if one ignores the lore, people still aren't happy about the change. Not many people want to rebuy a whole army, just because GW decided marines should be taller and have bigger bases.

There are three people in our local group who run their mini-marines as primaris, so I don't see it as being much of a problem. I'm not going to not play someone because they show up, ready to proxt old termies as aggressors, old tacticals as intercessors, etc. As long as they pay the proper points and have a way to indicate what is what, it's fine by me.

 Togusa wrote:
(Where is out tech marine?).

Sitting in a chair.

Karol wrote:
But you can't use your classic marines as the new tall marines. .

You can't?

That's weird, I can. Certainly as much as I can run my rogue trader era harlequins as current edition harlequins - just gotta tell my opponent what's what, and something might look slightly different (my powerfists are called harlequins' caresses now, my shadowseer doesn't have a lightning claw anymore, my laspistols are shuriken pistols, etc) but it rarely takes more than a second and a little bit of consistency to get things straight.

It seems like they're pretty steadily working their way thru the space marine range and creating primaris analogues to most of the classic marine models. They're not 100% done yet, and they've got some unique units like Suppressors and Invictors but for the most part its like

"Gosh what classic marine models should I use for these hellbasters? Maybe the ones with plasma guns and plasma cannons?"

"Hmm what classic marine models could i use for these Outriders?"

"I wonder what unit is analogous to an aggressor? It'd have to have some kind of high-output bolt weapon and a powerfist or something..."

All my UM are Tacticool Vanguard units anyway, so I can just skip the Gothic Bling for now.

Even before Vanguard were a thing, I was adding ammo pouches and grenade bandouliers onto my Intercessors, opting for a modern age Military Special Forces look.

I even like the Reivers silly Lara Croft twin hip gun holsters.

When I first saw the Vanguard I thought to myself "GW STOLE MY IDEA!", and then gave a big thumbs up.

I can’t believe all the vat grown primaris are dead, also what about the new primaris Only chapter. And has the production of mini marines stopped (in lore)

There were no vat grown Primaris mentioned.

The Awoken were literally Astartes from the Heresy, experimented upon in secret by Cawl and held in stasis with extensive indoctrination for them to have their roles. Guilliman's return set into motion Cawl bringing them forwards.

The Awoken who could not be united with a parent Chapter did get used in founding Primaris Chapters like the Rift Stalkers(Raven Guard).

mrFickle wrote:
I can’t believe all the vat grown primaris are dead, also what about the new primaris Only chapter. And has the production of mini marines stopped (in lore)

They might cover this in the new Crusade of Fire Book series (and also as a plug to start introducing the new models)

mrFickle wrote:
I can’t believe all the vat grown primaris are dead,

There was never any vat-grown marines. Cawl's first batch of Primaris were trained on Mars though. Some of them must still be around, though they would be in minority by now.

also what about the new primaris Only chapter.

They recruit normally.

And has the production of mini marines stopped (in lore)

There probably are some holdouts that continue to still make them for some bizarre reasons, but logically there are no reason to do so. Almost all new marines are primaris, and the old style marines can now get the upgraded into primaris. There really is no reason for non-primaris marines to exist any more.

Kayback wrote:
Am I the only one who doesn't get the heavy Gothic aesthetic of the Primaris?

In the old Marines you're entering a 10 000 year history of venerated relics and technology that's bordering on Cargo Cult, you don't know any better because the mysticism surrounding both the tech and the relics is ingrained deeply into the ethos of the Chapter you are joining. You have relics, you have saints and iconography, history and everything that you're joining.

Along come Primaris. New out the vat with brand new equipment but the iconography and traditions of ages past?

Seems.... Illogical.

I dunno, it's often the newbies who are the biggest try-hards in any organization, and who double down hardest on the "traditions."

My personal theory is that the Primaris marines all suffer from nagging self-doubt and insecurity issues. They can sense on some vague level how their existence doesn't fit with the rest of the 40k universe, that they are a fish out of water that really shouldn't exist in an IP based on a degraded Imperium that reveres old technology and methodology it can no longer produce. And here they are, popped out of a mold bright and shiny and better than everything that came before. It must be unsettling to know you're breaking the universe that was previously set up. So they try harder than everybody to fit in...but like all try-hards, the harder they try, the more they just end up standing out. Hence the Primario Kart.

But things change. Old tech that can't be maintained or replaced runs out of credibility as a narrative.