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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Actually no it doesn't. The logic is, if different Mks of Terminator armor get different because they "act different" in fluff, Power Armor needs the same treatment since they act different in fluff. Either you're wanting that consistency or you should admit that just because a different kit exists doesn't mean there's a justification for different rules.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in fi
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The Newman wrote:
[Absolutely nothing I said is a leap into non-logic. Different Terminator marks having slightly different rules makes more sense than different power armor marks all being under a single sheet. The lack of difference in power armor marks does not support the argument that the differences in terminator marks should be removed. If anything the opposite is true.

It is just pointless crazy bloat. Some options can be just visual. Just let the people choose the look they like.

   
Made in us
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Actually no it doesn't. The logic is, if different Mks of Terminator armor get different because they "act different" in fluff, Power Armor needs the same treatment since they act different in fluff. Either you're wanting that consistency or you should admit that just because a different kit exists doesn't mean there's a justification for different rules.

I don't want to make any assumptions since you didn't quote anything, but I'm guessing you're responding to me. Which is a little odd since you're saying pretty much exactly what I said.

I can see the argument for consolidating the Terminator marks into a single entry with all the options. I can see the argument for the different Power Armor marks to have small variations in their rules. What I can't see is the argument that Power Armor having the same rules for different marks justifies removing the differences between the terminator marks when "different model ~> different rules" is the rule and Power Armor is the exception, and that keeps getting held up as an example of why things should be consolidated.

It's not even really removing bloat if the new Terminator card can replicate any of the four existing cards.

   
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No. Stop creating more marine codexes. Bad! Down! Bad!

What else could you possibly want? Last edition there was: Space Marine Index, Space Marine Codex, Faction Codex, Vigilus, That one Chaos thing no one cares about, Prophecy of da wolf, other varies PA stuff that wasn't relevant about marines but somehow it was.

And now there's another codex release coming up.
   
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Actually no it doesn't. The logic is, if different Mks of Terminator armor get different because they "act different" in fluff, Power Armor needs the same treatment since they act different in fluff. Either you're wanting that consistency or you should admit that just because a different kit exists doesn't mean there's a justification for different rules.
Or you could argue that the inherent differences in Power Armour are not as pronounced as they are between the different marks of Terminator Armour.

Mk.VI has slightly better sensors than Mk.VII. Is that enough to justify a different rule compared to the speed differential between Cataphractii, Indomitus and Tartaros?

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
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I'm not sure how you even could give the different marks of power armour separate rules, given how many marine models have mixed or non-standard armour parts.

 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Actually no it doesn't. The logic is, if different Mks of Terminator armor get different because they "act different" in fluff, Power Armor needs the same treatment since they act different in fluff. Either you're wanting that consistency or you should admit that just because a different kit exists doesn't mean there's a justification for different rules.
Or you could argue that the inherent differences in Power Armour are not as pronounced as they are between the different marks of Terminator Armour.

Mk.VI has slightly better sensors than Mk.VII. Is that enough to justify a different rule compared to the speed differential between Cataphractii, Indomitus and Tartaros?

Ignore negative modifiers to hit. Bam done. So yes, we don't need the differing rules for the different Terminator armors. It's the pure definition of bloat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 insaniak wrote:
I'm not sure how you even could give the different marks of power armour separate rules, given how many marine models have mixed or non-standard armour parts.

So you would also need to argue there's no such thing as Terminator squads that are mixed ever. No Chapter has just three pieces of Tartaros and they won't be able to field ANY of them. Simply because there's not five!

Also you could do it because Mk3 and 4 have their own separate kits.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/16 01:22:30


CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in au
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also you could do it because Mk3 and 4 have their own separate kits.

But then what about any other models that are wearing parts of Mk3 or 4 armour? How much Mk3 would you need to be wearing to count as wearing Mk3?


Honestly, that's a level of detail that is completely unneccessary in a game on this scale. As is the terminator delineation, IMO.

 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 insaniak wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also you could do it because Mk3 and 4 have their own separate kits.

But then what about any other models that are wearing parts of Mk3 or 4 armour? How much Mk3 would you need to be wearing to count as wearing Mk3?


Honestly, that's a level of detail that is completely unneccessary in a game on this scale. As is the terminator delineation, IMO.

Exactly my point, thanks.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in pl
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 insaniak wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also you could do it because Mk3 and 4 have their own separate kits.

But then what about any other models that are wearing parts of Mk3 or 4 armour? How much Mk3 would you need to be wearing to count as wearing Mk3?


Honestly, that's a level of detail that is completely unneccessary in a game on this scale. As is the terminator delineation, IMO.


It gives marine players access to more rules and more unit types. Now terminator armoured units are in a bad state in general, but all they need is rules and point adjustments, and it could see wide use. What is bad in having more options for your army?

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
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Monticello, IN

At this point there really should be no other option but to rip the bandaid off and simply drop oldMarines. With the upcoming Primaris Bikers it's fairly obvious all the kits will be Primarified sooner rather than later. GW just needs to get that ball rolling faster and stop dragging it out.

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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Its AoS, it doesn't have to make sense.
 
   
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Karol wrote:
 insaniak wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also you could do it because Mk3 and 4 have their own separate kits.

But then what about any other models that are wearing parts of Mk3 or 4 armour? How much Mk3 would you need to be wearing to count as wearing Mk3?


Honestly, that's a level of detail that is completely unneccessary in a game on this scale. As is the terminator delineation, IMO.


It gives marine players access to more rules and more unit types. Now terminator armoured units are in a bad state in general, but all they need is rules and point adjustments, and it could see wide use. What is bad in having more options for your army?

If GW can't get one Terminator unit right, they shouldn't be attempting to make 4 of them.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
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Bristol

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Karol wrote:
 insaniak wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also you could do it because Mk3 and 4 have their own separate kits.

But then what about any other models that are wearing parts of Mk3 or 4 armour? How much Mk3 would you need to be wearing to count as wearing Mk3?


Honestly, that's a level of detail that is completely unneccessary in a game on this scale. As is the terminator delineation, IMO.


It gives marine players access to more rules and more unit types. Now terminator armoured units are in a bad state in general, but all they need is rules and point adjustments, and it could see wide use. What is bad in having more options for your army?

If GW can't get one Terminator unit right, they shouldn't be attempting to make 4 of them.


This. And, again, it introduces what is effectively a false choice for the player.

If you have 4 different versions of a unit but one of those versions is flat out better in every reasonable scenario then those other three might not as well be in there from a game design perspective as the player is effectively punished for taking them over the superior option. Give them all the same rules and nobody is punished for picking one particular model for their terminators over any other, which means that players can happily use whatever models they want, even mixing and matching those different marks within a unit.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/06/16 13:08:25


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Karol wrote:
 insaniak wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also you could do it because Mk3 and 4 have their own separate kits.

But then what about any other models that are wearing parts of Mk3 or 4 armour? How much Mk3 would you need to be wearing to count as wearing Mk3?


Honestly, that's a level of detail that is completely unneccessary in a game on this scale. As is the terminator delineation, IMO.


It gives marine players access to more rules and more unit types. Now terminator armoured units are in a bad state in general, but all they need is rules and point adjustments, and it could see wide use. What is bad in having more options for your army?


if ( MoreOptions == Good) then :
Grey knights power weapons are a good thing for the army.

i think most people can agree that these are non-choices, how often do you play with warding staves or daemon hammers? thats the kind of bloat that people talk about, same thing with power axe/maul/sword, theyre not real options.


I get that some people take suboptimal options (me included, especially for my night lords since theyre my fluffy army) but i'd rather the choices be mostly visual (which power weapon fits best with my theme)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/16 13:57:30


 
   
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 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Karol wrote:
 insaniak wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also you could do it because Mk3 and 4 have their own separate kits.

But then what about any other models that are wearing parts of Mk3 or 4 armour? How much Mk3 would you need to be wearing to count as wearing Mk3?


Honestly, that's a level of detail that is completely unneccessary in a game on this scale. As is the terminator delineation, IMO.


It gives marine players access to more rules and more unit types. Now terminator armoured units are in a bad state in general, but all they need is rules and point adjustments, and it could see wide use. What is bad in having more options for your army?

If GW can't get one Terminator unit right, they shouldn't be attempting to make 4 of them.


This. And, again, it introduces what is effectively a false choice for the player.

If you have 4 different versions of a unit but one of those versions is flat out better in every reasonable scenario then those other three might not as well be in there from a game design perspective as the player is effectively punished for taking them over the superior option. Give them all the same rules and nobody is punished for picking one particular model for their terminators over any other, which means that players can happily use whatever models they want, even mixing and matching those different marks within a unit.

This is exactly what I do. My csm terminators are a mix of cataphractii and tartaros, all with the same rules. It makes sense for a ragtag band of raiders, which is what they are. I don't understand why gw didn't go this route with the new csm terminators instead of making them all the newer indomutus pattern when csm should have older patterns. They understand that with basic power armour but not terminators.
   
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 Gadzilla666 wrote:

This is exactly what I do. My csm terminators are a mix of cataphractii and tartaros, all with the same rules. It makes sense for a ragtag band of raiders, which is what they are. I don't understand why gw didn't go this route with the new csm terminators instead of making them all the newer indomutus pattern when csm should have older patterns. They understand that with basic power armour but not terminators.


I can't wait for the Contekar to be released by FW so i can have actual NL themes termies in my army instead of running Scarab Occult "count-as"
   
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Port Carmine

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

I can't wait for the Contekar to be released by FW so i can have actual NL themes termies in my army instead of running Scarab Occult "count-as"


How do they relate to the Atramentar?

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 harlokin wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:

I can't wait for the Contekar to be released by FW so i can have actual NL themes termies in my army instead of running Scarab Occult "count-as"


How do they relate to the Atramentar?



I just started looking up NL lore but from what i understand, the Atramentars were actually part of the legion whilst the Contekar are basically "Mercenaries" within the legion that chose who they fight for. The contekar were part of the ruling elite of Nostromo.

I'm mostly saying that they fit the NL theme because of the model's looks, the previewed models wear Tartaros armor instead of the indomitus that regular chaos termies have.
   
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Port Carmine

Thanks for that, the Contekar models look great.

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Washington State

 bullyboy wrote:
With 9th, we are getting a slew of new units for Primaris marines..

Captain, Ancient, and Lt will probably just have options added to existing choices in single data slate
Judiciar
Assault Intercessors
Bladeguard Veterans
Eradicators
Outriders
Invader ATV
Firestrike turret
Landspeeder seen in other pictures

Now add that to existing options for marines, the codex is just going to get ridiculously out of control. At what point does GW branch off primaris into it's own dex and leave the old marines to current dex (before legends)?
I do understand that the Primaris line still has significant gaps and so you can't remove it just yet, but the choices are certainly getting out of hand.


Have you not been paying attention over the last three years? Many of the older Space Marine models are no longer being produced, and many more are only "made to order". I would not be surprised at all if the new Space Marine Codex was nothing but Primaris, with the older Space Marine line getting the Legendary rules online with no codex. All the pieces are in place. While I thought Space Marines wern't gonna get squatted until at least 10th edition, it looks like GW is moving up that time lime.

The largest holes in the Primaris line are about to be filled. Dedicated close combat units. Check. Fast attack bikes. Check. Devastators Check. What's left? Speeders? We've seen leaked, blurry images of a possible replacement. It's all there. The only question will be flyers- will we get new Stormnouns?

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 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:

This is exactly what I do. My csm terminators are a mix of cataphractii and tartaros, all with the same rules. It makes sense for a ragtag band of raiders, which is what they are. I don't understand why gw didn't go this route with the new csm terminators instead of making them all the newer indomutus pattern when csm should have older patterns. They understand that with basic power armour but not terminators.


I can't wait for the Contekar to be released by FW so i can have actual NL themes termies in my army instead of running Scarab Occult "count-as"

Why don't you just use the plastic tartoros kit instead of scarabs? If you like tartoros and Night Lords you should check out the Night Lords praetor from fw. Now that's a Night Lords terminator.
   
Made in ca
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 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:

This is exactly what I do. My csm terminators are a mix of cataphractii and tartaros, all with the same rules. It makes sense for a ragtag band of raiders, which is what they are. I don't understand why gw didn't go this route with the new csm terminators instead of making them all the newer indomutus pattern when csm should have older patterns. They understand that with basic power armour but not terminators.


I can't wait for the Contekar to be released by FW so i can have actual NL themes termies in my army instead of running Scarab Occult "count-as"

Why don't you just use the plastic tartoros kit instead of scarabs? If you like tartoros and Night Lords you should check out the Night Lords praetor from fw. Now that's a Night Lords terminator.


Because i also have a Thousand sons army .

And i already have the night lords praetor that i'm running as a termi lord.

i don't want to get a kit since i know i'll get the contekar once they release.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/16 16:27:41


 
   
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I'm thinking they will do a First Born separate book later in 9th and in 10th they will start with First Born and Primaris separate that the same time remove some of them to Legends making it the last edition for baby marines. This is a 9 ish year plan, i'm guess Marines will be all Primaris by towards the end of 10th.

   
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The current marine dex has 76 datasheets, and now we will be adding at least 8-9 more sheets for roughly 85 separate data sheets. This does not include Forgeworld, chapter specific sheets etc.

That's pure insanity really.
   
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 bullyboy wrote:
The current marine dex has 76 datasheets, and now we will be adding at least 8-9 more sheets for roughly 85 separate data sheets. This does not include Forgeworld, chapter specific sheets etc.

That's pure insanity really.


No, its a well a thought out sane business move.

GW customers are sometimes somewhat insane- they often have emotional attachments to their plastic model toys.

Their flagship product is 40k, with the flagship faction being Imperium, specifically Space Marines.

They are going to get rid of all the classic Marines within the next 4-5 years. All of them.

This is their transition and phase out, there has been only 1 new marine sculpt model in the past 4 years, and it was a replacement for a model that already existed as a special character. Slowly every classic marine option is being replace with an equivalent primaris option. When the something something is complete absolute primaris will mean classic marines become legends. Not only will GW no longer have to create new classic marines, which they are not and have not been doing, they will not have to continue supporting the legend sculpts and production.

This is a very sane, very well thought out, long term business plan to replace the highest grossing product for a company in a way their customer base will accept.



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/16 16:51:53


 
   
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Port Carmine

I suspect the plan would have been better received without the 'Primaris fluff'.....oh and if any of the vehicles actually looked good.

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The whole point of primaris is to completely replace the space marine line and void the old models so people have to buy new armies. They couldn't do it all at once because that would be too much even for frogs that are used to being boiled. So they started small, deliberately leaving large areas of the oldmarines range still mostly untouched. 8th was the "comfy warm temperatures" phase of the plan to boil the frogs. Nothing too extreme, nothing that couldn't plausibly be spun as "expanding" the range instead of "replacing it."

Now comes 9th, when the temperatures really get turned up now that people are used to the concept of primaris models, and even to the point of actually asking for their old models to be replaced with better primaris versions.

By the end of 9th, every single oldmarine will have a primaris alternative that is aggressively point costed at a more attractive level, and aggressively $ costed at a price point higher than the old model.

   
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Split the Codex, slowly drop support for Primaris. Rescale classic marines with new kits to CSM size.

Except Primaris look objectively better than the rescaled stuff. Also the statline makes more sense.

I love the way you use the word “objectively” like a person who has absolutely no idea what it means. It doesn’t just “add extra emphasis” to your entirely subjective opinion FYI.
   
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 Nitro Zeus wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Split the Codex, slowly drop support for Primaris. Rescale classic marines with new kits to CSM size.

Except Primaris look objectively better than the rescaled stuff. Also the statline makes more sense.

I love the way you use the word “objectively” like a person who has absolutely no idea what it means. It doesn’t just “add extra emphasis” to your entirely subjective opinion FYI.

Well it isn't really subjective to say Primaris are more realistic in scale to other models, more evenly proportioned, etc. You can LIKE Manlet Marines more because you refuse to look at anything new, but let's not pretend the models are better than Primaris.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Nitro Zeus wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Split the Codex, slowly drop support for Primaris. Rescale classic marines with new kits to CSM size.

Except Primaris look objectively better than the rescaled stuff. Also the statline makes more sense.

I love the way you use the word “objectively” like a person who has absolutely no idea what it means. It doesn’t just “add extra emphasis” to your entirely subjective opinion FYI.

Well it isn't really subjective to say Primaris are more realistic in scale to other models, more evenly proportioned, etc. You can LIKE Manlet Marines more because you refuse to look at anything new, but let's not pretend the models are better than Primaris.
But also "objectively", bigger models make the table look smaller, and make terrain features like buildings less realistically scaled, or ranges on guns more ridiculously short.

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