Daedalus81 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:


Their bikes grant them an additional +2A on the charge for reasons.

it matters because it is hilariously, patently obvious that GW is simply pushing every single new thing as "the biggest and the best" and then the new thing after that as "The bigestest and the besterest" and it immediately leads to extremely comical results.

marine bike 1A
OK that means the fancy-pantsy ravenwing bike needs 2A
Hmm not enough attack better give them all a bonus so 3A
Custode bikes come out gotta make sure those are 4A
New primaris special snowflake outriders gotta bump that bad boy up to 6A!

Say, how are we comparing to other factions now? How about I don't know Harlequins? oh, two of them on a bike throw 1/2 the attacks of the new primaris extra special big boy bikers?

This is the unrelenting escalating stupidity of primaris marines. GW spent 4 editions making marines, then special marines (BA And SW), then specialer marines (GK), then secret super all-veteran batman marines (DW), then marines so mariney they've got shiny golden codpieces and shoulderpads on their shoulderpads (Custodes) and now we have to one up THOSE fething guys with the new-new-new-new-NEW marines, or else nobody would think they're the biggest or the best anymore! It's gotten to the point where the comparison of the stats of the models in the very same box is just absolutely comical - they previewed the new necron warrior gun option and the shiny new PISTOL that the primaris lieutenant had was a stronger statline. Because of course he can't have a regular plasma pistol, we've made 18 primaris lieutenant models with plasma pistols so he's got to have a neo-volkite schmatulator.

Your whole concept falls flat on its face, because the new marine bikes do not meet the level of Custodes.

Bananas are 2+/4++ T6 with 4 attacks that are S6 AP3 D3 reroll wounds on the charge with WS2. Not to mention three times the shots with BS2. If your bar for better is a couple of S4 attacks then I dunno what to say.

What we got was a doubled up bike. Twice the wounds, twice the attacks (except in shooting), and likely twice the points. It just looks better.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Also, we are talking about a model throwing down 10 BS3+ S4 AP-1 attacks between its 30" range dakka and its melee attacks, and that's just A-OK on what is being speculated as a 40pt model.

I remember when land speeders had a heavy bolter on them and that was a fast antiinfantry scout vehicle. 3 shots.

But that's a loyalist marines primaris model. They need to be powerful and costed cheaply compared to all of us mooks. The "good guys" need to look awesome next to the other factions. How else do you expect all these new models to sell? They need to mow down all those evil hordes that totally dominated 8th at their expense.

Honestly, they may be 60ppm, but I doubt it. Loyalist marines will continue to dominate until other factions get their 9th edition codexes.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Also, we are talking about a model throwing down 10 BS3+ S4 AP-1 attacks between its 30" range dakka and its melee attacks, and that's just A-OK on what is being speculated as a 40pt model.

I remember when land speeders had a heavy bolter on them and that was a fast antiinfantry scout vehicle. 3 shots.

But that's a loyalist marines primaris model. They need to be powerful and costed cheaply compared to all of us mooks. The "good guys" need to look awesome next to the other factions. How else do you expect all these new models to sell? They need to mow down all those evil hordes that totally dominated 8th at their expense.

Honestly, they may be 60ppm, but I doubt it. Loyalist marines will continue to dominate until other factions get their 9th edition codexes.

the_scotsman wrote:


So it's just cool that every other faction in the game including custodes gets +1W for their bikers and once again primaris marines throw a pile of dice every turn and make everything else in the game look ridiculously weak? That's normal now? We're a couple editions removed from "space wolves are just marines +1, they get free chainswords AND boltguns? Chainswords and boltguns, ridiculous!" and now we've got the new assault intercessors with their assault 2 bolt carbines and 4 AP-1 melee attacks on the charge and everyone is just like... "Meh, I guess a basic tactical marine is just a genestealer with a boltgun for a dick, that's fine. Loyalist space marines just fight like a pair of chaos space marines I guess, nobody's gonna use them because they can't squat 30" away from enemy troops and make Tau blush with how good they are at being stationary gun turrets. Speaking of which cant wait to find out the stats for the new space marine stationary gunship and GW's reasoning for why it's got BS2+ rerollable and an extra special twin autocannon that gets 18 shots."

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Also, we are talking about a model throwing down 10 BS3+ S4 AP-1 attacks between its 30" range dakka and its melee attacks, and that's just A-OK on what is being speculated as a 40pt model.

I remember when land speeders had a heavy bolter on them and that was a fast antiinfantry scout vehicle. 3 shots.

But that's a loyalist marines primaris model. They need to be powerful and costed cheaply compared to all of us mooks. The "good guys" need to look awesome next to the other factions. How else do you expect all these new models to sell? They need to mow down all those evil hordes that totally dominated 8th at their expense.

Honestly, they may be 60ppm, but I doubt it. Loyalist marines will continue to dominate until other factions get their 9th edition codexes.

Like how Aggressors started at W2? Or Primaris didn't have an extra attack on the charge? Or an AP1 CS? And they couldn't get two shots at full range if they stood still? And no fancy traits of doctrines?

Those good guys? Are we now suddenly expecting GW to walk back all the changes that made marines more worthwhile even if they went overboard?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Also, we are talking about a model throwing down 10 BS3+ S4 AP-1 attacks between its 30" range dakka and its melee attacks, and that's just A-OK on what is being speculated as a 40pt model.

I remember when land speeders had a heavy bolter on them and that was a fast antiinfantry scout vehicle. 3 shots.

But that's a loyalist marines primaris model. They need to be powerful and costed cheaply compared to all of us mooks. The "good guys" need to look awesome next to the other factions. How else do you expect all these new models to sell? They need to mow down all those evil hordes that totally dominated 8th at their expense.

Honestly, they may be 60ppm, but I doubt it. Loyalist marines will continue to dominate until other factions get their 9th edition codexes.

Like how Aggressors started at W2? Or Primaris didn't have an extra attack on the charge? Or an AP1 CS? And they couldn't get two shots at full range if they stood still? And no fancy traits of doctrines?

Those good guys? Are we now suddenly expecting GW to walk back all the changes that made marines more worthwhile even if they went overboard?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:


So it's just cool that every other faction in the game including custodes gets +1W for their bikers and once again primaris marines throw a pile of dice every turn and make everything else in the game look ridiculously weak? That's normal now? We're a couple editions removed from "space wolves are just marines +1, they get free chainswords AND boltguns? Chainswords and boltguns, ridiculous!" and now we've got the new assault intercessors with their assault 2 bolt carbines and 4 AP-1 melee attacks on the charge and everyone is just like... "Meh, I guess a basic tactical marine is just a genestealer with a boltgun for a dick, that's fine. Loyalist space marines just fight like a pair of chaos space marines I guess, nobody's gonna use them because they can't squat 30" away from enemy troops and make Tau blush with how good they are at being stationary gun turrets. Speaking of which cant wait to find out the stats for the new space marine stationary gunship and GW's reasoning for why it's got BS2+ rerollable and an extra special twin autocannon that gets 18 shots."

A pile of dice as compared to what? What were Centurions throwing for dice? Why is it offensive to see bikes trade the dice of aggressors for speed and durability?

Two Primaris Intercessors do what now? Four AP1 shots from 30" and 6 S4 attacks on W4...for...40 points. For what reason would you take a W3 bike that has the same number of shots and melee attacks and likely costs more points and won't see cover as much as Intercessors?

the_scotsman wrote:

You are highlighting the problem here. Primaris stuff HAS to continually top itself, and it HAS to top existing marine stuff, so it becomes this escalating scale of ridiculousness that devolves into pure comedy.

The longest-range static gunline troop in the game throws 3A per model, uh oh, what the actual feth are we going to do to make people want to use these mobile bikers, or this melee version? We're going to have to make them actually ludicrous or nobody is going to even give them a second thought!

The Space Marine obsolescence curve has gotten so bonkers that there are PRIMARIS MARINE models you'd never consider taking because they're so out of date! What does a reiver do that the half-dozen other plastic kits they've shoved out since then in the exact same role of boltgun/melee primaris trooper doesn't do better? How could you possibly go about creating a role for reivers to fill that isn't taken up by the 4 different kinds of intercessor and 2 different kinds of infiltrator? Everything has to keep escalating and escalating and escalating because they just. can't. stop. won't. stop. making. new. space. marines!

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I get that you don't like that Primaris 'come with more stuff', but its sort of necessary to even make Primaris a worthwhile concept to begin with.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I get that you don't like that Primaris 'come with more stuff', but its sort of necessary to even make Primaris a worthwhile concept to begin with.

Viola! That's because they're NOT a good concept to begin with.

Buuuut Imagine instead of making them 2W, they were T5 and we kept the old wound chart. S3 wounds them on 6+, S4 on a 5+ and S5 on a 4+. Then Outrider could ave been T6 2W and so on. You cut down on the inflation necessary to engage them, which in turn leaves more breathing room for the other units in the game. But you still make them doubly tough vs. Guardsmen, and so the old Marine's vs. horde scenario works out better.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I get that you don't like that Primaris 'come with more stuff', but its sort of necessary to even make Primaris a worthwhile concept to begin with.

Viola! That's because they're NOT a good concept to begin with.

Buuuut Imagine instead of making them 2W, they were T5 and we kept the old wound chart. S3 wounds them on 6+, S4 on a 5+ and S5 on a 4+. Then Outrider could ave been T6 2W and so on. You cut down on the inflation necessary to engage them, which in turn leaves more breathing room for the other units in the game. But you still make them doubly tough vs. Guardsmen, and so the old Marine's vs. horde scenario works out better.

There's a whole pile of unintended consequences to that experiment. The 'inflation necessary to engage them' is commensurate with their cost. You don't suddenly struggle to kill an LRBT over a predator just because it is T8 unless your list lacks a proper answer to anti-tank. If you have D2 weapons for Primaris you have the proper weapon for bikes, but instead of killing two marines you kill one bike - and for every bike there will be two less (or more) Intercessors.

the_scotsman wrote:
As we all know, heavily pushing a T8 5++ superheavy to be a part of normal play had no consequence of escalating antitank weaponry and the mortal wound mechanic and in no way caused ordinary vehicles without invulns to feel super crappy to play.

So I cant see how making primaris a central part of the game could ever do that to infantry.

 Insectum7 wrote:
I really don't see the problem with that, and you solve the problem of things like Heavy Bolters, heck, Bolters and Gauss Rifles, not being able to one-shot Primaris. Besides, you take D2 weapons because everything uses wounds now, including tanks. So D2 ramains useful regardless of whether Primaris are around or not.

the_scotsman wrote:
As we all know, heavily pushing a T8 5++ superheavy to be a part of normal play had no consequence of escalating antitank weaponry and the mortal wound mechanic and in no way caused ordinary vehicles without invulns to feel super crappy to play.

So I cant see how making primaris a central part of the game could ever do that to infantry.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
I really don't see the problem with that, and you solve the problem of things like Heavy Bolters, heck, Bolters and Gauss Rifles, not being able to one-shot Primaris. Besides, you take D2 weapons because everything uses wounds now, including tanks. So D2 ramains useful regardless of whether Primaris are around or not.

And then Primaris aren't 20 points.

yukishiro1 wrote:
But that's ignoring why all those other things happened. All those other things happened because they were trying to make a 2W troop choice work, and to make that work, you need to vastly inflate their offense as well as their defense or you just end up with a troops choice that is hard to kill but doesn't actually do anything to kill anybody else. Which is not Space Marines (TM). And then you also end up with 3W and 4W elite infantry that has to have truly absurd levels of lethality for their points cost or there is just no point to them compared to the already lethal base troops.

The whole thing is just bad.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Also, you're talking to a guy who think classics are plenty worth their points, so you're barking up the wrong tree saying they'd move to the dust bin.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Also, you're talking to a guy who think classics are plenty worth their points, so you're barking up the wrong tree saying they'd move to the dust bin.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
No, they didn't "do the exact same thing 6 months before the marine codex as they do now". They didn't have doctrines, multi part chapter tactics, super doctrines, bolter discipline, or shock assault. They added all that and then dropped their price. That made them play just a little bit different. They piled on too many rules too fast, and made a troops choice that is better than many elites options. That's the problem. If intercessors were an elites choice they wouldn't be so bad.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Also, you're talking to a guy who think classics are plenty worth their points, so you're barking up the wrong tree saying they'd move to the dust bin.

There is far less difference between a T4 and T5 model than there is a W1 and W2 model.

What incentive do I have to use a 12 point T4 model over a 13 or 14 point T5 model with the same weapons? Conversely -- is it worth losing a wound for 8 points for more flexibility? There's a lot more distinction to be made there.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
No, they didn't "do the exact same thing 6 months before the marine codex as they do now". They didn't have doctrines, multi part chapter tactics, super doctrines, bolter discipline, or shock assault. They added all that and then dropped their price. That made them play just a little bit different. They piled on too many rules too fast, and made a troops choice that is better than many elites options. That's the problem. If intercessors were an elites choice they wouldn't be so bad.

It'd still be bad, since Imperial Marines don't really need CP to do their things.

They help, of course, but their units stand on their own, by and large. Compare that to a lot of other armies, and, well...

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
No, they didn't "do the exact same thing 6 months before the marine codex as they do now". They didn't have doctrines, multi part chapter tactics, super doctrines, bolter discipline, or shock assault. They added all that and then dropped their price. That made them play just a little bit different. They piled on too many rules too fast, and made a troops choice that is better than many elites options. That's the problem. If intercessors were an elites choice they wouldn't be so bad.

 Insectum7 wrote:


We have an example, and that's Sternguard. They are 14 points, have an additional attack and better gun. They're a great unit. This change would be one less AP, but one higher toughness.