Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hey, so a mate has challenged me to pure 'old marine' vs 'primaris marine' battle. Rules are this: he can only take primaris key-worded units or those that can transport them, I get all the old marine and FW units. He is going to play Ultramarines. We are look at 2k. We are cool with 'counts as', so $$$ cost of units not a factor. I will be running a Raven Guard successor chapter, or pure Raven Guard.


If you were me, and wanted to field the most competitive 'meta' but purely 'old marine' list, what would you take? My initial thoughts are to take the (generally) lower points cost of old marine units to get real potential for board control, but open to other ideas.


So far, my thinking has extended to ‘what would I take instead of intercessors?’ and I have come up with either 5-man tactical squads with (1) sgt with storm bolter, 1 marine with heavy bolter (72 points vs 85) or (2) sgt with combi plasma, 1 marine with grav-cannon and amp (91 points vs 85) or (3) sgt with combi plasma, 1 marine with heavy bolter (81 points vs 85) and maybe terminators instead of aggressors.

Hit me up with suggestions! Thanks!

Sniper cloaked scouts and FW Dreads/Artillery.

Thanks dude. Any thoughts on troop or elite choices?

 Eldarain wrote:
Sniper cloaked scouts and FW Dreads/Artillery.

 XeonDragon wrote:
Thanks dude. Any thoughts on troop or elite choices?

 Eldarain wrote:
Sniper cloaked scouts and FW Dreads/Artillery.

Using the Raven Guard ambush to push a blob of Hammer/Shield Terminators into the enemy.

flood the board w bodies, treat them like a horde army. use artillery, whirlwinds & devs in pods. Sternguard as well

I use only classic marines and get good results. Classics can bring a ton of high AP, D2 and D3D damage, and I lean on Plasma Cannons, Guns and Grav Cannons. Three Devastator Squads can unleash 60 Grav Cannon shots in their first strike. I would consider leveraging this sort of thing heavily. I like Pods to guarantee first strike.

The Leviathan Dreadnought will also pump out a ton of D2 damage. I'd consider that unit, too. Personally I don't like it, as I don't run FW, but others like it a lot.

For more dedicated anti-armor (anti Repulsor), I like to group up a bunch of. Razorbacks with twin-Lascannon and HK launcher, buffed with rerolls. 6 Lascannons with UM Relic Oath rerolls and Devastator Doctrine average a Repulsor knockout. That's before they fire HK missiles. Six Razorbacks plus Chapter Master and Lt. Rerolls ought to get you 2 Repulsor chassis kills or so.

Racerguy180 wrote:
flood the board w bodies, treat them like a horde army. use artillery, whirlwinds & devs in pods. Sternguard as well

Thanks, I like the idea of using thunderfire cannons/whirlwinds and drop pod shenanigans


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:
I use only classic marines and get good results. Classics can bring a ton of high AP, D2 and D3D damage, and I lean on Plasma Cannons, Guns and Grav Cannons. Three Devastator Squads can unleash 60 Grav Cannon shots in their first strike. I would consider leveraging this sort of thing heavily. I like Pods to guarantee first strike.

The Leviathan Dreadnought will also pump out a ton of D2 damage. I'd consider that unit, too. Personally I don't like it, as I don't run FW, but others like it a lot.

Thanks, they are some really great ideas there. I love drop pod shenanigans. Point about plasma well taken. Leviathan Dreadnought looks like it might be worth it... what about a dreadnought chaplain?

 Insectum7 wrote:
I use only classic marines and get good results. Classics can bring a ton of high AP, D2 and D3D damage, and I lean on Plasma Cannons, Guns and Grav Cannons. Three Devastator Squads can unleash 60 Grav Cannon shots in their first strike. I would consider leveraging this sort of thing heavily. I like Pods to guarantee first strike.

The Leviathan Dreadnought will also pump out a ton of D2 damage. I'd consider that unit, too. Personally I don't like it, as I don't run FW, but others like it a lot.

This is good advice. I read "meta" as metal so my Terminator suggestion probably isn't the best option you can go for.

I don't know about a Chaplain dreadnought, not sure I can get those as I play UM.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eldarain wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
I use only classic marines and get good results. Classics can bring a ton of high AP, D2 and D3D damage, and I lean on Plasma Cannons, Guns and Grav Cannons. Three Devastator Squads can unleash 60 Grav Cannon shots in their first strike. I would consider leveraging this sort of thing heavily. I like Pods to guarantee first strike.

The Leviathan Dreadnought will also pump out a ton of D2 damage. I'd consider that unit, too. Personally I don't like it, as I don't run FW, but others like it a lot.

This is good advice. I read "meta" as metal so my Terminator suggestion probably isn't the best option you can go for.

Lol, Terminators are pretty metal, haha.

I wouldn't count them out. They can do absolutely hideous damage. Terminators with the Fury of the First (?) Strat, the one that gives them +1 to hit, with the additional UM reroll Strat, plus Lightning claws which reroll to wound and +1 attack, gets you 41 2+ to hit, fully rerollabe attacks. Thats a potential 41x.96x.75 hits. You can also give them the Assault Doctrine with another strat, giving them a -4 AP. That's 29.52 wounds against T4 Primaris. THEN, if you're in a good position, you can use the Fight Twice stratagem. You can easily kill two full squads in a turn, more if you connect with more squads and they fumble their counter attack. The problem is that they're hard to deliver.

Thunder Hammers hit harder, but overkill most Primaris a bit as every hit does 3 wounds, and costs more. Dont let that stop you though. They'll obliterate whatever they touch.

The advantage of regular marines is their ability to hide special weapons in squads of ablative bodies. The best way to take advantage of that is to spam plasma and grav.

Also note that if Primaris want to run a decent amount of high str low ap weapons, then you may end up facing something like triple executioner. So bring some good AV firepower.

 Insectum7 wrote:
I don't know about a Chaplain dreadnought, not sure I can get those as I play UM.

All space marine armies can have a Chaplain Dreadnought. It's in the forgeworld index for space marines.

 ph34r wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
I don't know about a Chaplain dreadnought, not sure I can get those as I play UM.

All space marine armies can have a Chaplain Dreadnought. It's in the forgeworld index for space marines.

Ahh thanks. Yeah I'm pretty unfamiliar with FW offerings other than a few units I come across at my store. (Leviathans everywhere)

Yeah, my buddy and I have agreed that unless it has primaris as a keyword, or transports them, it's off-limits

 ph34r wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
I don't know about a Chaplain dreadnought, not sure I can get those as I play UM.

All space marine armies can have a Chaplain Dreadnought. It's in the forgeworld index for space marines.

Centurions, grav devastators, small captains and thunder fire cannons. Sounds like meta marines to me. Chaplain dreadnoughts and Leviathan if you still have points.

I'm pretty sure he'll bring the executioners along. What do you think about using Rhinos or Razorbacks to transport tactical marines up the board? I'd save the drop pods for grav devastators, stern/vangaurd vets.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
The advantage of regular marines is their ability to hide special weapons in squads of ablative bodies. The best way to take advantage of that is to spam plasma and grav.

Also note that if Primaris want to run a decent amount of high str low ap weapons, then you may end up facing something like triple executioner. So bring some good AV firepower.

 XeonDragon wrote:
I'm pretty sure he'll bring the executioners along. What do you think about using Rhinos or Razorbacks to transport tactical marines up the board? I'd save the drop pods for grav devastators, stern/vangaurd vets.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
The advantage of regular marines is their ability to hide special weapons in squads of ablative bodies. The best way to take advantage of that is to spam plasma and grav.

Also note that if Primaris want to run a decent amount of high str low ap weapons, then you may end up facing something like triple executioner. So bring some good AV firepower.

I like and use both, but I find you really have to have a plan with Rhinos in particular, and be familiar with how to use transports. Razorback I use more as fire support, and to reduce my number of drops during deployment so I can get the bonus to go first.

So, even if you are absolutely sure you want to be and only ultramarines,

Consider this an advertiesment for iron hands' ability to win your armor duel.

Iron hands brings the spearhead to support your efforts.
1 chaplain dreadnaught (2 lascannons)
1 tech marine (+1 to hit aura)
3 thunderfire cannon
1 mortise dreadnaught with 4 lascannon (march of the ancients, character, protected from damage)
I think this costs about 690 total so far -- so you could also throw in (for the lol's) a company champion and a relic whirlwind (both are elite slots and oyu need the champion to bring the relic).

The champion give the group a bit of coutnercharge (with the axe of medusa on the techmarine command slot guy, you got actually decent countercharge when you remember that chaplain dread can punch), but the relic whirlwind is 3d3 6/-2/2 of primaris slaughtering joy, firing at +1 to hit. Since you are of course a bunch of iron hands, give the iron stone for your champion to carry, to protect your most easily sighted and thus least LOS protected whirlwind.

Result is, you can reasonably blow up his executioner with 1 round of lascannon shots, rip into his eliminator pile with the thunderfires, freeze up the really heavy elite super duper trooper centurions and aggressors he thought he would bring down on you like the hammer of god, and basically, mess his poop up.

When that repulsor dies, normally there is a nice stratgegem to fire its big guns back at you, but now, its going to die, and the things kiling it can't be targeted (ok, the whirlwind relic is the optional part of this plan that may not be worth including, and could be. But I digress). Hide the rest of your army and you will have been able to pull his 324ish points of armor without the armor accompishing a damn thing, poof, and you can repeat that feat (although by turn 2, its likely he can draw a bead on something!) with the same long ranged, lascannons the second turn. I don't know many people who would bring a third repulsive executioner but if they do, you would LOVE killing that, too, on turn 3.

You still have more than a thousand points of marines to buy, probably mostly 1 wound models with stormshields and thunderhammers, chaplains, and that ancient who gives you 2 attacks in melee when you die. Veterans with plasma guns and stormshields. Those grav dev squads your momma told you to always take a reload cherub for. Stuff like that. But your backline -- I think the iron hands can give you an excellent option for backfield play, that would be fairly decent even in a competitive meta army right now. I think.

Thanks for that - my buddy is going to play Ultramarines, I was looking at Raven Guard or a successor of it, but this is thought provoking, thanks

Dukeofstuff wrote:
So, even if you are absolutely sure you want to be and only ultramarines,

Consider this an advertiesment for iron hands' ability to win your armor duel.

Iron hands brings the spearhead to support your efforts.
1 chaplain dreadnaught (2 lascannons)
1 tech marine (+1 to hit aura)
3 thunderfire cannon
1 mortise dreadnaught with 4 lascannon (march of the ancients, character, protected from damage)
I think this costs about 690 total so far -- so you could also throw in (for the lol's) a company champion and a relic whirlwind (both are elite slots and oyu need the champion to bring the relic).

The champion give the group a bit of coutnercharge (with the axe of medusa on the techmarine command slot guy, you got actually decent countercharge when you remember that chaplain dread can punch), but the relic whirlwind is 3d3 6/-2/2 of primaris slaughtering joy, firing at +1 to hit. Since you are of course a bunch of iron hands, give the iron stone for your champion to carry, to protect your most easily sighted and thus least LOS protected whirlwind.

Result is, you can reasonably blow up his executioner with 1 round of lascannon shots, rip into his eliminator pile with the thunderfires, freeze up the really heavy elite super duper trooper centurions and aggressors he thought he would bring down on you like the hammer of god, and basically, mess his poop up.

When that repulsor dies, normally there is a nice stratgegem to fire its big guns back at you, but now, its going to die, and the things kiling it can't be targeted (ok, the whirlwind relic is the optional part of this plan that may not be worth including, and could be. But I digress). Hide the rest of your army and you will have been able to pull his 324ish points of armor without the armor accompishing a damn thing, poof, and you can repeat that feat (although by turn 2, its likely he can draw a bead on something!) with the same long ranged, lascannons the second turn. I don't know many people who would bring a third repulsive executioner but if they do, you would LOVE killing that, too, on turn 3.

You still have more than a thousand points of marines to buy, probably mostly 1 wound models with stormshields and thunderhammers, chaplains, and that ancient who gives you 2 attacks in melee when you die. Veterans with plasma guns and stormshields. Those grav dev squads your momma told you to always take a reload cherub for. Stuff like that. But your backline -- I think the iron hands can give you an excellent option for backfield play, that would be fairly decent even in a competitive meta army right now. I think.

This is a really cool premise for a game- I really want to know how your game turns out.

Thanks, I will let you all know

PenitentJake wrote:
This is a really cool premise for a game- I really want to know how your game turns out.

BA and SW can do just fine without primaris, as most of their specialist units are not primaris. Codex SM chapters have a much harder time.

yukishiro1 wrote:
BA and SW can do just fine without primaris, as most of their specialist units are not primaris. Codex SM chapters have a much harder time.

Not sure why you'd say that. The crazy buffs in the Codex chapters aren't exclusive to Primaris or anything. My UM feel crazy strong.

yukishiro1 wrote:
BA and SW can do just fine without primaris, as most of their specialist units are not primaris. Codex SM chapters have a much harder time.

I don't think that's going to work in 9th. BA at least is codex: tripoint. The exact unit is more of a detail. SW had primaris early in the form of Wulfen.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
BA and SW can do just fine without primaris, as most of their specialist units are not primaris. Codex SM chapters have a much harder time.

Not sure why you'd say that. The crazy buffs in the Codex chapters aren't exclusive to Primaris or anything. My UM feel crazy strong.

Because your list has serious flaws vs the field. The primaris UM have fewer flaws vs the field. Putting expensive equipment on 1W models backfires as much as it helps, even if it hasn't happened to you yet.

^Elaborate?

Edit: Oh nevermind, it's just Martel.

Why? It's worked for you, and the meta outside your group doesn't matter. You've made that clear. When your stuff starts dying it bleeds points fast. If you can't see why that's a problem, I don't know what to tell you.

Martel732 wrote:
Why? It's worked for you, and the meta outside your group doesn't matter. You've made that clear. When your stuff starts dying it bleeds points fast. If you can't see why that's a problem, I don't know what to tell you.

I wouldn't be suprised if it was the opposiie case. There are far more units available to classics over Primaris. Key things too, like Leviathans, Stalkers, Relic Scorpius, Thunderfires. Primaris are squeezed for vehicle options in comparison. Primaris are capable fielding lots of 2W infantry, it's true. Thankfully Classics have loads and loads of D2 options.

Wulfen aren't primaris. Sang guards aren't primaris. They're kinda primaris equivalents in the roles they play, but they aren't actually primaris, so presumably you could take them in the oldmarine list.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Why? It's worked for you, and the meta outside your group doesn't matter. You've made that clear. When your stuff starts dying it bleeds points fast. If you can't see why that's a problem, I don't know what to tell you.

I wouldn't be suprised if it was the opposiie case. There are far more units available to classics over Primaris. Key things too, like Leviathans, Stalkers, Relic Scorpius, Thunderfires. Primaris are squeezed for vehicle options in comparison. Primaris are capable fielding lots of 2W infantry, it's true. Thankfully Classics have loads and loads of D2 options.

the only thing primaris have over standard marines right now is intercessors, which are mostly good because they have a VERY compeitive points cost

Well I'm no expert on Primaris units as I don't look closely at their units in the codex, but I could certainly see that being true. The main advantages of classics is A: the collection is far past "mature" and has a unit for everything, and B: the units themselves are more flexible, allowing far more tailoring. Even Intercessors find themselves in the middle between Bikes and Sternguard, and Bikes and Sternguard can equip with Specials.

as of now being able to throw in specials & attach an attack bike into the squad, the Astartes bikes should be pretty effective on a unit/unit basis.