Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

yukishiro1 wrote:
How does driving a rhino into a unit of drones get you anywhere? Why would the T'au player even care?

Negate overwatch for units that follow the Rhino into combat.

But it doesn't. That's the whole point of FTGG. All it does is negate overwatch from the drones that don't even have weapons.

You can still FTGG against a charging unit even if the unit being charged is already in combat. That only stops overwatch from the unit in combat, not from anyone who can FTGG.

He's in his own meta where his hyper fragile geared out marines never get shot at. I wouldn't question it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

yukishiro1 wrote:
But it doesn't. That's the whole point of FTGG. All it does is negate overwatch from the drones that don't even have weapons.

THis is the same reason the angel's wing sucks vs Tau. But as I said, just don't question it. Rhino bumper cars works for him.

yukishiro1 wrote:
How does driving a rhino into a unit of drones get you anywhere? Why would the T'au player even care?

How is any drone alive in turn 2 vs a space marine army?

At least here by putting them behind ruin out of LOS.

tneva82 wrote:
At least here by putting them behind ruin out of LOS.

TFCs go for gold on that one.

yukishiro1 wrote:
But it doesn't. That's the whole point of FTGG. All it does is negate overwatch from the drones that don't even have weapons.

You can still FTGG against a charging unit even if the unit being charged is already in combat. That only stops overwatch from the unit in combat, not from anyone who can FTGG.

It stops Overwatch from any unit the Rhino contacts. . . thus, reducing Overwatch. Potentially blocking LOS too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
He's in his own meta where his hyper fragile geared out marines never get shot at. I wouldn't question it.

Of course they get shot at. I just try to be the one that shoots first.

Not to digress from the topic, but I'd also like to point out, against 70% of the tau's list, the primaris are just as durable as normal marines. 6 -2 2D is the mainstay of most tau forces, and it shreds primaris just as easily as it does tacticals. The tacticals however, lose less firepower per model lost until you get to the SGT/Special at the end.

Sure SMS and firewarriors exist, but they can be mitigated by things like rhinos (which are absolute champs at soaking HBCs as well)

So, this is interesting- this was originally in the text for the Overwatch reveal, but has since been deleted:



Was GW originally planning to make Tau follow the same rules, but responded to backlash? Or did the left hand just not know what the right was doing?

 catbarf wrote:

Was GW originally planning to make Tau follow the same rules, but responded to backlash? Or did the left hand just not know what the right was doing?

gak - anything is possible at this point. We did know of Day 0 FAQs though, so, whether Stu / WHC were in the dark about that is hard to know.

It would have been the writers at Warhammer Community that would be in the dark.

They've talked in the past about how they usually get four or five weeks notice of things to write about. So it's likely they've been working from home, same as the rest of the world.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

Was GW originally planning to make Tau follow the same rules, but responded to backlash? Or did the left hand just not know what the right was doing?

gak - anything is possible at this point. We did know of Day 0 FAQs though, so, whether Stu / WHC were in the dark about that is hard to know.

FAQs aren't printed material, they're digital (yes, I know I'm stating the obvious), so they could be making changes right up to the release. Things could be quite fluid.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

Was GW originally planning to make Tau follow the same rules, but responded to backlash? Or did the left hand just not know what the right was doing?

gak - anything is possible at this point. We did know of Day 0 FAQs though, so, whether Stu / WHC were in the dark about that is hard to know.

FAQs aren't printed material, they're digital (yes, I know I'm stating the obvious), so they could be making changes right up to the release. Things could be quite fluid.

True, creating a PDF out of a document takes just a minute or two, depending on the settings and methods used.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
At least here by putting them behind ruin out of LOS.

TFCs go for gold on that one.

Or Eliminators. Or both. Few other armies can deal with the drones though. Realistically here we have one OP mechanic beating the other. ILOS weapons that practically auto hit and can shoot twice vs Bodyguards that work while OLOS and reduce damage to one. Both mechanics could do with an extreme nerf. No bodygaurd units should work out of LOS and ILOS weapons should not hit at the same rate as in LOS.

On the topic of over-watch...Removing it across the board I was thinking okay that is great. Because most the CC units had a mechanic to ignore overwatch anyways and the rest of the time over-watch rarely did anything. maybe do 2 or 3 wounds a turn if they charged mutliple units. Then they came out with the new tau rules and cover rules and I am just scratching my head. How exactly do you take the army with the most absurd overwatch...make it really easy to get over-watch on 5's and allow them to do it exclusively?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
At least here by putting them behind ruin out of LOS.

TFCs go for gold on that one.

Or Eliminators. Or both. Few other armies can deal with the drones though. Realistically here we have one OP mechanic beating the other. ILOS weapons that practically auto hit and can shoot twice vs Bodyguards that work while OLOS and reduce damage to one. Both mechanics could do with an extreme nerf. No bodygaurd units should work out of LOS and ILOS weapons should not hit at the same rate as in LOS.

On the topic of over-watch...Removing it across the board I was thinking okay that is great. Because most the CC units had a mechanic to ignore overwatch anyways and the rest of the time over-watch rarely did anything. maybe do 2 or 3 wounds a turn if they charged mutliple units. Then they came out with the new tau rules and cover rules and I am just scratching my head. How exactly do you take the army with the most absurd overwatch...make it really easy to get over-watch on 5's and allow them to do it exclusively?

I wish there was consistancy in the Bodyguard rule. theres what at least 4 different versions? 1 of those versions lets lascannons potentially kill 6 models in 1 shot. the death guard varient should be how all bodyguard rules work, the hit just transfered to them like how a look out sir should be

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
At least here by putting them behind ruin out of LOS.

TFCs go for gold on that one.

Or Eliminators. Or both. Few other armies can deal with the drones though. Realistically here we have one OP mechanic beating the other. ILOS weapons that practically auto hit and can shoot twice vs Bodyguards that work while OLOS and reduce damage to one. Both mechanics could do with an extreme nerf. No bodygaurd units should work out of LOS and ILOS weapons should not hit at the same rate as in LOS.

On the topic of over-watch...Removing it across the board I was thinking okay that is great. Because most the CC units had a mechanic to ignore overwatch anyways and the rest of the time over-watch rarely did anything. maybe do 2 or 3 wounds a turn if they charged mutliple units. Then they came out with the new tau rules and cover rules and I am just scratching my head. How exactly do you take the army with the most absurd overwatch...make it really easy to get over-watch on 5's and allow them to do it exclusively?

Without psy phase and CC phase how exactly did you expect them to play in an edition where long range alpha strike is gone and you have to engage the opponent in close quarters or concede?

The new terrain rules, board size and strategic reserves completely change the way the game is played. Without Overwatch the T'au would have been sitting ducks. Ducks that can't fly and shoot.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Because most the CC units had a mechanic to ignore overwatch anyways....

Such as? I played three armies in 8th (Orks, drukhari, space wolves) and none of them has a single unit/stratagem/ability that invalidates overwatch.

 Blackie wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Because most the CC units had a mechanic to ignore overwatch anyways....

Such as? I played three armies in 8th (Orks, drukhari, space wolves) and none of them has a single unit/stratagem/ability that invalidates overwatch.

Same, my GK only way to avoid overwatch was to charge a unit with two units.

 Blackie wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Because most the CC units had a mechanic to ignore overwatch anyways....

Such as? I played three armies in 8th (Orks, drukhari, space wolves) and none of them has a single unit/stratagem/ability that invalidates overwatch.

Drukari = Vexator mask
Spacewoofs = Suppressors like all marines

Orks I dont know well enough to know their answer but 2 out of the three armies you listed certainly have answers.

Ice_can wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Because most the CC units had a mechanic to ignore overwatch anyways....

Such as? I played three armies in 8th (Orks, drukhari, space wolves) and none of them has a single unit/stratagem/ability that invalidates overwatch.

Drukari = Vexator mask
Spacewoofs = Suppressors like all marines

Orks I dont know well enough to know their answer but 2 out of the three armies you listed certainly have answers.

Good spot. Suppressors were only added in march with Sage of the Beast, and I forgot about the Mask since other relics are basically auto-takes. The poster I quoted said "MOST CC UNITS" though, and here I only see a single unit in the SW roster (a pretty Meh one) and a single option for the drukhari army. The mask works only for the specific haemonculus, who is something that unlikely wants to charge as it's basically played by letting him march behind Grots, Wracks and Talos.

For both armies it's more effective to assault and suffer overwatch than relying on those two options. They are real options indeed that I forgot, but none of them is a real answer, maybe Suppressor but mostly against Tau, I fail to see how they could be worth taking in any possible TAC list.

Suppressors dont work vs tau well. SW dont need to stop ow, because wulfen are damn near immortal.

Spoletta wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
At least here by putting them behind ruin out of LOS.

TFCs go for gold on that one.

Or Eliminators. Or both. Few other armies can deal with the drones though. Realistically here we have one OP mechanic beating the other. ILOS weapons that practically auto hit and can shoot twice vs Bodyguards that work while OLOS and reduce damage to one. Both mechanics could do with an extreme nerf. No bodygaurd units should work out of LOS and ILOS weapons should not hit at the same rate as in LOS.

On the topic of over-watch...Removing it across the board I was thinking okay that is great. Because most the CC units had a mechanic to ignore overwatch anyways and the rest of the time over-watch rarely did anything. maybe do 2 or 3 wounds a turn if they charged mutliple units. Then they came out with the new tau rules and cover rules and I am just scratching my head. How exactly do you take the army with the most absurd overwatch...make it really easy to get over-watch on 5's and allow them to do it exclusively?

Without psy phase and CC phase how exactly did you expect them to play in an edition where long range alpha strike is gone and you have to engage the opponent in close quarters or concede?

The new terrain rules, board size and strategic reserves completely change the way the game is played. Without Overwatch the T'au would have been sitting ducks. Ducks that can't fly and shoot.

Which edition is this? Because there's nothing to suggest that long range alphastrike is AT ALL gone or that you have to engage the opponent in close quarters. The new terrain rules are on the whole less detrimental to shooting than ITC's terrain rules are. It's just not a binary 'can see can't see' mechanic. The new outflank rule is better for shooting units than melee units, the smaller board size means that every gun in your army is likely to be in range to pop your opponent.

I agree that the new rules will absolutely change the way the game is played in a lot of ways, but saying long range alpha strike is gone is REALLY premature.

Is it premature? Yeah sure, but we are discussing something that we don't have yet in our hands, so everything we say on the matter is premature.

Are there signs that point to long range alpha strikes being gone? Hell yeah, and you named a big one yourself in your answer.

Not to mention that it was already mostly death in CA19 missions. Castling was a sure way to lose against good players. IH were really good because they were the most mobile marines, not the best at castling.

By the way, the new LoS rules are MORE restrictive than ITC rules. ITC rules only had the first floor being LoS blocking, here the obscuring element is infinitely high, so even taller pieces can be protected.

Spoletta wrote:
Is it premature? Yeah sure, but we are discussing something that we don't have yet in our hands, so everything we say on the matter is premature.

Are there signs that point to long range alpha strikes being gone? Hell yeah, and you named a big one yourself in your answer.

Not to mention that it was already mostly death in CA19 missions. Castling was a sure way to lose against good players. IH were really good because they were the most mobile marines, not the best at castling.

By the way, the new LoS rules are MORE restrictive than ITC rules. ITC rules only had the first floor being LoS blocking, here the obscuring element is infinitely high, so even taller pieces can be protected.

IH weren't 'the most mobile armies' at all. That's blatantly false. They absolutely castled. They could move and shoot so they weren't totally static, but most modern 'castle' lists aren't truly stationary.

Obscuring is only applied to some terrain pieces and only blocks LoS if it's taller than 5". ITC ruins applied to almost all structures and a single 3" floor blocks LoS. I would still argue that as far as protecting things from alphastrike, the ITC rule is more impactful.

Long range alphastriking is never going to be gone, you'll just see Alphastrike lists choosing to go second to force you to either give up a turn of scoring or move out into the open. Which I guess would technically make it a 'beta strike' but that's just semantics at that point.

Read again what I said. Not "The most mobile Army", but "The most mobile marine".

Among the new marines IH were definitely the most mobile.

IH flyers were the cornerstone of competitive IH, without that they could not clear targets from objectives.

Note also that the "1st floor blocks LoS" wasn't an ITC only rule.