Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Because you're way overstating auras. Warptime on multiple daemon prince level characters is STRONG not to mention all the other force multipliers available.

It's a good thing that DPs usually ended up as monstrous creatures and unable to join units with the IC rule then, isn't it?

Also, why are you only looking at 7th edition when it comes to the rules layout and USRs? Look at older editions of the game like 3rd or 5th edition and you'll see a very different less bloated game that had fewer stacking buffs and other proper absurdities. That said, there were a few particularly nasty lists that did need nerfs.

You can still pack a whole bunch of greater possessed, MoEs, abaddon, apostles, and lords.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:
Also, once you know what Daemonforged, Daemon, and IWND do you never need to look at that page again, you'll see it on a unit's entry.

But you're still looking on the unit entry - which is where *all* the rules for various effects are in 8th (except the faction specific ones, which I've already said I mostly just ignore) - which makes things a lot easier for beginners, and in the case of disputes as to what the rule means/says/does. All in one place, right where it's relevant at the moment of play.

There's nothing stopping GW to writing USRs into a unit's entry as they do now with keywords. They just somehow got away from putting all the rules on one page as the years went by. Having or not having rules on a single page has feth all to do with USRs and everything to do with good page layouts and a half-decent copy editor.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
You can still pack a whole bunch of greater possessed, MoEs, abaddon, apostles, and lords.

Clear Chain of Command: At the start of each game turn, select one attached IC to be that unit's leader. The unit benefits only from that character's special rules and abilities. Other ICs attached to that unit do not receive any benefit from the unit's leader but do retain their own special rules.

Fixed it for you.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:
Also, once you know what Daemonforged, Daemon, and IWND do you never need to look at that page again, you'll see it on a unit's entry.

But you're still looking on the unit entry - which is where *all* the rules for various effects are in 8th (except the faction specific ones, which I've already said I mostly just ignore) - which makes things a lot easier for beginners, and in the case of disputes as to what the rule means/says/does. All in one place, right where it's relevant at the moment of play.

There's nothing stopping GW to writing USRs into a unit's entry as they do now with keywords. They just somehow got away from putting all the rules on one page as the years went by. Having or not having rules on a single page has feth all to do with USRs and everything to do with good page layouts and a half-decent copy editor.

Which lends itself to the point - USRs don't make the game better. Good organization and fun rules do.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Which lends itself to the point - USRs don't make the game better. Good organization and fun rules do.

They make understanding a game and an opponent's units at a glance easier. If the game has two dozen USRs most players will quickly learn the one's their army uses and the ones that they commonly face. So if a new unit comes out or they play an army for the first time they can ask what units do and when the player says, "A lot of my units have Fleet, and these two can Deepstrike." That player has a good idea of what that army can do.

It also makes for easier balancing as two units with a similar role and the same USRs will only have stats, faction abilities, and one or two bespoke rules to differentiate them. If you give them a similar, but not exactly the same ability such as 'reroll hit rolls' versus 'reroll failed hit rolls' you've added another point to balance around.

Yea, we're well past that level of rules though. Love it or hate it the stratagems are the most difficult rules contention. A problem I've been aiming to fix, but I need to wait for the PA and 8.5/9 edition to shake out.

This totally screws Death Jesters. What's the point of them now? They're made to sit back on objectives and provide support fire since the rest of the harlequin army rockets forward at full speed. That is their sole purpose.

Shadowseers are also probably screwed by this. After catapulting a nearby unit with their spell, they'll usually be sitting out alone.

Solitaires less so, but still often on their own in no mans land waiting for the opportune time to strike.

This. Huge multi charging nerf. Getting shot in melee. Cap on modifiers. It all seems like hit after hit to harlequins.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
... (except the faction specific ones, which I've already said I mostly just ignore)...

Why are you ignoring them?

did people think the current character rules needed changing?

All needed to be said is that the screening unit also had to be visible and be the closest. Untargetable characters because theres a unit hiding behind a building was dumb but apart from that it made sense and felt quite intuitive.

Maybe its just me.

It was ruled that way after a few chapter-approveds because people were "rhino sniping" characters by moving their own units (rhinos, for example) to block out the closest units from visibility of the shooting unit.
But then they changed it so a single grot hiding in a basement could block targeting because it was "closest"

It was really a damned if you do, damned if you don't sort of rule. So yeah... it needed changing.

 Argive wrote:
did people think the current character rules needed changing?

Changing? No. Muddying? Certainly. What we need these rules to do is achieve a largely similar effect, but with far more words. The net result is largely the same, but now it takes longer to figure out.

 Argive wrote:
All needed to be said is that the screening unit also had to be visible and be the closest.

That's exactly what the core rule already is. It was changed early on for Matched Play because people were "LoS sniping" with their vehicles.

The rule for 9th is mostly fine and it makes more sense thematically. A Daemon Prince is no longer going to be rendered invisible because there was a Cultist behind, but closer to, the shooter. People are worried about it encouraging castling, but I would argue that players who are going to castle up their characters were going to do it anyway to maximise their auras.

The problem I have with this rule as written is how MONSTER/VEHICLE CHARACTERS with <=9 wounds can prevent each other from being shot at all, so long as there is another unit that is closer to the shooter. I hope this gets fixed.

I understand the worry for characters like Death Jesters, but let's not freak out until we know the full extent of the rules.

Yes, it needs changing. Friendly units within 3" should be able to intercept wounds for the character, just like bodyguards. For each wound the character would lose the intercepting unit rolls a dice, on 2+ it suffers 1 MW, which cant be ignored.

ThePorcupine wrote:
This totally screws Death Jesters. What's the point of them now? They're made to sit back on objectives and provide support fire since the rest of the harlequin army rockets forward at full speed. That is their sole purpose.

Shadowseers are also probably screwed by this. After catapulting a nearby unit with their spell, they'll usually be sitting out alone.

Solitaires less so, but still often on their own in no mans land waiting for the opportune time to strike.

This. Huge multi charging nerf. Getting shot in melee. Cap on modifiers. It all seems like hit after hit to harlequins.

I'm not sure, that I share your opinion.
Shadowseers and Troupemasters are taken because of the support they give to the Harlequine Troupes, I can't see the problem here.
The Solitaire might be in trouble, he likes to take a stroll on his own and will be vulnerable (but he's also a beast when it comes to close combat - there has to be a downside). Seems like positioning is getting really important.
The Dj is a very mobile Sharpshooter - and yes, he was used to sit back there and caress your objectives. But looking at the new relics that he got, he wants to get some offensive action. Get some naked clowns to hold keep your backyard clean and if you position the Dj a bit carefully (again, yes) he won't be the nearest modell to anyone who could shoot at him, or let him be accompanied by a voidweaver.

The new rules seem to increase the difficulty, I give you that, but "screwed"? I think that's a bit too dramatic...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 p5freak wrote:
Yes, it needs changing. Friendly units within 3" should be able to intercept wounds for the character, just like bodyguards. For each wound the character would lose the intercepting unit rolls a dice, on 2+ it suffers 1 MW, which cant be ignored.

so, strip the T'au from all of their special traits?
Just being sarcastic...

 p5freak wrote:
Yes, it needs changing. Friendly units within 3" should be able to intercept wounds for the character, just like bodyguards. For each wound the character would lose the intercepting unit rolls a dice, on 2+ it suffers 1 MW, which cant be ignored.

Okay, so what do bodyguard units do then?

 Argive wrote:
did people think the current character rules needed changing?

All needed to be said is that the screening unit also had to be visible and be the closest. Untargetable characters because theres a unit hiding behind a building was dumb but apart from that it made sense and felt quite intuitive.

Maybe its just me.

My playgroup, including me, is very happy with this change. Especially with orks you often run into situation where a lone warboss, big mek or weird boy is sitting alone out in the open, with no models or terrain anywhere nearby because the units around it have been blown to smithereens. They still couldn't be shot by anyone because there was an ork plane flying overhead.
Situations like this made the game feel really weird, as the whole idea of character protections is that they can't be picked out from other troops, not to be immune to shooting when they are heroically posing on top of a hill.

I also think this kind of change is necessary when you look at the new mission design - you really don't want people to spam cheap characters to have invincible units sitting on objectives and perform VP-generating actions.

The only thing I'm not sure about is whether 3" is enough to work in practice. Both my DG and orks regularly leave their characters behind when they charge, but the character can't/fails to do so.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Yes, it needs changing. Friendly units within 3" should be able to intercept wounds for the character, just like bodyguards. For each wound the character would lose the intercepting unit rolls a dice, on 2+ it suffers 1 MW, which cant be ignored.

Okay, so what do bodyguard units do then?

Their ruling gets removed. No more confusing variations of it. One bodyguard rule for all.

The rule refers to characters in units, does that mean that we're going back to older editions when characters had to join units if they wanted to avoid the enemy firepower or is it just referring to some units who have the possibility to take a character (or must have a character) directly from their sheet?

Tell me we're not going back to deathstars please.

 Blackie wrote:
The rule refers to characters in units, does that mean that we're going back to older editions when characters had to join units if they wanted to avoid the enemy firepower or is it just referring to some units who have the possibility to take a character (or must have a character) directly from their sheet?

Tell me we're not going back to deathstars please.

I don't think so. If characters were attached to units they wouldn't need a character protection rule. I think it is for things like Fabius Bile with his helper which are a unit, and Grot oilers attached to Meks (I think). I'm sure there are other examples.

 Blackie wrote:
The rule refers to characters in units, does that mean that we're going back to older editions when characters had to join units if they wanted to avoid the enemy firepower or is it just referring to some units who have the possibility to take a character (or must have a character) directly from their sheet?

Tell me we're not going back to deathstars please.

It means that there are units which are more than just one character. Big mek with grot oiler, celestine with geminae, fabius bile with surgeon acolyte, etc.

 p5freak wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
The rule refers to characters in units, does that mean that we're going back to older editions when characters had to join units if they wanted to avoid the enemy firepower or is it just referring to some units who have the possibility to take a character (or must have a character) directly from their sheet?

Tell me we're not going back to deathstars please.

It means that there are units which are more than just one character. Big mek with grot oiler, celestine with geminae, fabius bile with surgeon acolyte, etc.

Ah, ok I get it. I've always assumed that grot oilers for big meks could soak a shot anyway, withouth any special rule and even with their presence the unit still counted as Character. There are basically no snipers here so I have 0 experience in fielding those kind of cheap escorts to characters, my SAG big mek never had a grot oiler as I never had the feeling that it was something needed for his protection even if I saw it in many tournament lists.

As someone who plays Dark Eldar, I don't even see the point of getting my characters out of the box with this rule.

 Argive wrote:
did people think the current character rules needed changing?

Yes. I thought that being able to hide something the size of a Daemon Prince behind Cultists was stupid.

Guess which part of the rule stayed the same.

 vipoid wrote:
As someone who plays Dark Eldar, I don't even see the point of getting my characters out of the box with this rule.

Preach it. That said, even now mine don't tend to get out till their Venom is in flames.

 vipoid wrote:
As someone who plays Dark Eldar, I don't even see the point of getting my characters out of the box with this rule.

 Argive wrote:
did people think the current character rules needed changing?

Yes. I thought that being able to hide something the size of a Daemon Prince behind Cultists was stupid.

Guess which part of the rule stayed the same.

Chaplain Dreads stay annoying in 9th too - assuming they don't get Legended in the start of the edition purge.

Nibbler wrote:
I'm not sure, that I share your opinion.
Shadowseers and Troupemasters are taken because of the support they give to the Harlequine Troupes, I can't see the problem here.
The Solitaire might be in trouble, he likes to take a stroll on his own and will be vulnerable (but he's also a beast when it comes to close combat - there has to be a downside). Seems like positioning is getting really important.
The Dj is a very mobile Sharpshooter - and yes, he was used to sit back there and caress your objectives. But looking at the new relics that he got, he wants to get some offensive action. Get some naked clowns to hold keep your backyard clean and if you position the Dj a bit carefully (again, yes) he won't be the nearest modell to anyone who could shoot at him, or let him be accompanied by a voidweaver.

The new rules seem to increase the difficulty, I give you that, but "screwed"? I think that's a bit too dramatic...

Shadowseers are taken for twilight pathways to get an extra movement phase on a group of bikes and occasionally throw out some mortal wounds with smites or whatever. That's it. Harlequins are a mechanized force and the shadowseer can't keep up with it.

There must be a downside to the solitaire? There is. There always has been. He has no ranged weapons, all his weapons are low strength low AP, he's T3, and you can only bring 1 of him. New relics that he got? What new relics? He's taking the rose, like he's always been. He's not stupid powerful. He never was.

The death jester wants to "get some offensive action" with the new relics that he got? His new relic gives him 36" range, the longest range weapon in the army (12" more than what he used to have). What part of that screams "run up to the enemy"?
Get some naked clowns to babysit him not accomplishing anything on their own? Or a voidweaver? Ask any harlequin player, they'll avoid voidweavers like the plague. And now a troop tax is required for each death jester, more than doubling their price? What the hell.

You're damn right it increases the difficulty. On an army that was already seen as incredibly difficult to play.

 Asmodai wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
As someone who plays Dark Eldar, I don't even see the point of getting my characters out of the box with this rule.

 Argive wrote:
did people think the current character rules needed changing?

Yes. I thought that being able to hide something the size of a Daemon Prince behind Cultists was stupid.

Guess which part of the rule stayed the same.

Chaplain Dreads stay annoying in 9th too - assuming they don't get Legended in the start of the edition purge.

Much less annoying. Now they need to always stay close to another target to be protected, which isn't exactly the way you use an untargettable lascannon. And you can always choose to destroy that other something and then kill the chaplain.

(Obviously assuming that the dumb rule that makes it so that two chaplains can screen each other, gets FAQed away at lightning speed)

ThePorcupine wrote:

Nibbler wrote:
I'm not sure, that I share your opinion.
Shadowseers and Troupemasters are taken because of the support they give to the Harlequine Troupes, I can't see the problem here.
The Solitaire might be in trouble, he likes to take a stroll on his own and will be vulnerable (but he's also a beast when it comes to close combat - there has to be a downside). Seems like positioning is getting really important.
The Dj is a very mobile Sharpshooter - and yes, he was used to sit back there and caress your objectives. But looking at the new relics that he got, he wants to get some offensive action. Get some naked clowns to hold keep your backyard clean and if you position the Dj a bit carefully (again, yes) he won't be the nearest modell to anyone who could shoot at him, or let him be accompanied by a voidweaver.

The new rules seem to increase the difficulty, I give you that, but "screwed"? I think that's a bit too dramatic...

Shadowseers are taken for twilight pathways to get an extra movement phase on a group of bikes and occasionally throw out some mortal wounds with smites or whatever. That's it. Harlequins are a mechanized force and the shadowseer can't keep up with it.

There must be a downside to the solitaire? There is. There always has been. He has no ranged weapons, all his weapons are low strength low AP, he's T3, and you can only bring 1 of him. New relics that he got? What new relics? He's taking the rose, like he's always been. He's not stupid powerful. He never was.

The death jester wants to "get some offensive action" with the new relics that he got? His new relic gives him 36" range, the longest range weapon in the army (12" more than what he used to have). What part of that screams "run up to the enemy"?
Get some naked clowns to babysit him not accomplishing anything on their own? Or a voidweaver? Ask any harlequin player, they'll avoid voidweavers like the plague. And now a troop tax is required for each death jester, more than doubling their price? What the hell.

You're damn right it increases the difficulty. On an army that was already seen as incredibly difficult to play.

Yep all of this, not many play quins and people who dont like Nibbler don't understand how the army actually works and how a lot of these new rules are very harsh to them. Yes no OW is nice but they already had ways to stop it, really the only big help right now is Obscured terrain. So far list went from a nice diverse list of 6-7 characters, 6 troupes, 4-5 starweavers, and 12 bikes to 4 characters, 15 bikes and 3 troupes. Its more boring now and harder to play. ALso I will never take the Yncarne unless i see some amazing changed with it. The Yncarne with new LoS! is 100% worst in every way.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Argive wrote:
did people think the current character rules needed changing?

Changing? No. Muddying? Certainly. What we need these rules to do is achieve a largely similar effect, but with far more words. The net result is largely the same, but now it takes longer to figure out.

It's about the same number of words and visually way easier to discern rather than having to run a tap measure to the other ends of the board to check distances all the time.

I'm sure it will get more wordy in the future to deal with super-friends.

By the way, we just need to learn that characters are supposed to get killed like any other unit. If you opponent really wants it dead, it will die.

The character keyword has been wildly OP until now.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Argive wrote:
did people think the current character rules needed changing?

Changing? No. Muddying? Certainly. What we need these rules to do is achieve a largely similar effect, but with far more words. The net result is largely the same, but now it takes longer to figure out.

It's about the same number of words and visually way easier to discern rather than having to run a tap measure to the other ends of the board to check distances all the time.

I'm sure it will get more wordy in the future to deal with super-friends.

That isn't right though. If a Character isn't within 3" of a MONSTER, VEHICLE, or 3+ Size unit, it can be shot regardless of whether it is closest or not.

I was about to say that too.