Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Psychic Awakening: War of the Spider, Page 50 wrote:Agent of the Imperium
If your army is Battle-forged, you can include 1 AGENT OF THE IMPERIUM unit in each IMPERIUM (excluding FALLEN) Patrol, Battalion and Brigade Detachment in your army without those units taking up slots in those Detachments. The inclusion of an AGENT OF THE IMPERIUM unit does not prevent other units from their Detachment from benefiting from Detachment abilities (e.g. Chapter Tactics, Defenders of Humanity etc.), and it does not prevent other units from your army benefiting from abilities that require every model in your army to have that ability (e.g. Combat Doctrines). An AGENT OF THE IMPERIUM unit included in a Patrol, Battalion or Brigade Detachment in this manner is ignored for any rules that state all units from that Detachment must have at least one Faction keyword in common (e.g. in a matched play game) and when determining your Army Faction.

Psychic Awakening: War of the Spider, Page 42 wrote:TALONS OF THE EMPEROR
If your army is Battle-forged, units with the SISTERS OF SILENCE Faction keyword can be included in an ADEPTUS CUSTODES Detachment in your army, without preventing that Detachment from being an ADEPTUS CUSTODES Detachment. Note that this does not prevent ADEPTUS CUSTODES units in that Detachment from gaining any Detachment abilities (e.g. The Emperor’s Chosen and the Sworn Guardians abilities), however SISTERS OF SILENCE units cannot themselves gain any Detachment abilities. Similarly, those SISTERS OF SILENCE units are ignored for any rules that state all units from that Detachment must have at least one Faction keyword in common (e.g. in a matched play game) and when determining your army’s Faction.

Codex: Adeptus Custodes, Page 72 wrote:In this section you’ll find rules for Battle-forged armies that include ADEPTUS CUSTODES Detachments – that is, any Detachment which only includes ADEPTUS CUSTODES units.
[...]
ABILITIES
If your army is Battle-forged, all INFANTRY and BIKER units in ADEPTUS CUSTODES Detachments gain the Sworn Guardians and the Emperor’s Chosen abilities.

So, if I include a Vindicare Assassin in an ADEPTUS CUSTODES detachment, then as per page 72 of Codex: Adeptus Astartes "This unit’s invulnerable save is improved by 1 (to a maximum of 3+)", thus my 4+ invulnerable save is improved to a 3+. Alternatively, if I included a Vindicare in a RAVEN GUARD detachment, he'd be -3 to hit if he is on terrain and being shot at from more than 12" away (at least 9th will cap that!).

Note the difference in language (highlighted above) between the Sisters of Silence's rule and the Assassin's rule. The SoS explicitly denies benefiting from the detachment trait, which if it didn't by default the rule wouldn't be needed, ergo the default is that they would benefit and thus need a rule saying they don't benefit. By extension, this means the Assassin benefits as there is no rule preventing him from benefiting, and he meets the requirements laid out by the codex to benefit (he is a "unit" in an "ADEPTUS CUSTODES detachment" and his inclusion doesn't prevent the detachment from granting the Detachment Trait.

Did I miss something obvious?

Do assassins get the AGENT OF THE IMPERIUM or SISTERS OF SILENCE keyword in WOTS ?

 p5freak wrote:
Do assassins get the AGENT OF THE IMPERIUM or SISTERS OF SILENCE keyword in WOTS ?

Yes, they have the AGENT OF THE IMPERIUM keyword. The datasheets are replaced in full from the WD Index.

In that case assassins do get a 3+ inv when they are in an ADEPTUS CUSTODES detachment. This will not change, because PA books are written with 9th in mind

So Assassins no longer cause your Ultramarines to forget who they are? Wonderful.

 p5freak wrote:
In that case assassins do get a 3+ inv when they are in an ADEPTUS CUSTODES detachment. This will not change, because PA books are written with 9th in mind

Ok, but written with 9th in mind is the not the same as written without the usual level of inconsistencies that require FAQs

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So Assassins no longer cause your Ultramarines to forget who they are? Wonderful.

A welcome development, for sure. Especially since Guillman remembered how to be an Ultramarine!

So, you're in agreement that Assassins benefit from the detachment trait?

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So Assassins no longer cause your Ultramarines to forget who they are? Wonderful.

A welcome development, for sure. Especially since Guillman remembered how to be an Ultramarine!

So, you're in agreement that Assassins benefit from the detachment trait?

I can see that the Assassins don't prevent combat doctrines, traits etc, but not how they would benefit from a Space Marine Chapter trait (Raven Guard was the example given). What am I missing? It says they don't prevent "other models" which I take to mean not including themselves.

Aash wrote:

I can see that the Assassins don't prevent combat doctrines, traits etc, but not how they would benefit from a Space Marine Chapter trait (Raven Guard was the example given). What am I missing? It says they don't prevent "other models" which I take to mean not including themselves.

Assassins can be included in an IMPERIUM detachment, because they are have the AGENT OF THE IMPERIUM keyword. An ADEPTUS CUSTODES detachment is an IMPERIUM detachment. All INFANTRY models in ADEPTUS CUSTODES detachments get +1 inv., thats their chapter tactic. An assassin is an INFANTRY model. Therefore the assassin gets +1 to his 4+ inv, which is like a 3+.

It's not an Adeptus Custodes detachment with regards to the assassin. It's a mixed Imperial detachment. It's only an Adeptus Custodes detachment with regards to the other models. So the assassin doesn't benefit.

Drager wrote:
It's not an Adeptus Custodes detachment with regards to the assassin. It's a mixed Imperial detachment. It's only an Adeptus Custodes detachment with regards to the other models. So the assassin doesn't benefit.

No, read the Agent of the Imperium rule quoted in the first post.

I still don't see how the assassin would benefit from faction abilities, combat doctrines etc.

does not prevent other units from their Detachment from benefiting from Detachment abilities

ignored for any rules that state all units from that Detachment must have at least one Faction keyword in common

Emphasis mine. In the first quote the detachment /army wide benefits only apply to "other units" which does not include the assassin itself, and the second quote specifies that you ignore the assassin for "any rules" to do with a common Faction keyword. "Any rules" includes the rule that determines who in the army/ detachment will benefit from the Faction Keyword, so when determining who get those benefits(-1 to hit, +1 save etc) you ignore the assassin. If you are ignoring the assassin, then the assassin doesn't gain the ability.

Aash wrote:
I still don't see how the assassin would benefit from faction abilities, combat doctrines etc.

does not prevent other units from their Detachment from benefiting from Detachment abilities

ignored for any rules that state all units from that Detachment must have at least one Faction keyword in common

Emphasis mine. In the first quote the detachment /army wide benefits only apply to "other units" which does not include the assassin itself, and the second quote specifies that you ignore the assassin for "any rules" to do with a common Faction keyword. "Any rules" includes the rule that determines who in the army/ detachment will benefit from the Faction Keyword, so when determining who get those benefits(-1 to hit, +1 save etc) you ignore the assassin. If you are ignoring the assassin, then the assassin doesn't gain the ability.

Ok, so, the first one doesn't preclude the assassin from gaining the trait (see the SoS rule, if it did then the SoS rule would not be needed). All it does is stop the detachment trait breaking.

The second one, explicitly refers only to rules "that state all units from that Detachment must have at least one Faction keyword in common", i.e. the Battle Brothers rule, it doesn't mention Detachment Traits at all. Detachment traits don't give abilities to <FACTION KEYWORD> units in the detachment, it gives abilities to all eligible units (e.g. Custodes only affect INFANTRY and BIKERS) in <FACTION KEYWORD> Detachments, which it remains so even if you add the assassin as per the assassins rule.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Aash wrote:
I still don't see how the assassin would benefit from faction abilities, combat doctrines etc.

does not prevent other units from their Detachment from benefiting from Detachment abilities

ignored for any rules that state all units from that Detachment must have at least one Faction keyword in common

Emphasis mine. In the first quote the detachment /army wide benefits only apply to "other units" which does not include the assassin itself, and the second quote specifies that you ignore the assassin for "any rules" to do with a common Faction keyword. "Any rules" includes the rule that determines who in the army/ detachment will benefit from the Faction Keyword, so when determining who get those benefits(-1 to hit, +1 save etc) you ignore the assassin. If you are ignoring the assassin, then the assassin doesn't gain the ability.

Ok, so, the first one doesn't preclude the assassin from gaining the trait (see the SoS rule, if it did then the SoS rule would not be needed). All it does is stop the detachment trait breaking.

The second one, explicitly refers only to rules "that state all units from that Detachment must have at least one Faction keyword in common", i.e. the Battle Brothers rule, it doesn't mention Detachment Traits at all. Detachment traits don't give abilities to <FACTION KEYWORD> units in the detachment, it gives abilities to all eligible units (e.g. Custodes only affect INFANTRY and BIKERS) in <FACTION KEYWORD> Detachments, which it remains so even if you add the assassin as per the assassins rule.

For the first point, in isolation it doesn't allow the Assassin to gain any abilities, but I see how the context provided by the SoS wording suggests that specific wording is required to deny the assassin the ability to gain a trait. I think both interpretations can be argued as valid. I hope an FAQ will clarify this as I'm not convinced one way or the other. Just because the SoS rule has redundant language, doesn't necessarily change the meaning of the Assassin rule which lacks the same redundant language. I would be very surprised if the decision was to allow Assassins to gain faction traits etc. HIWPI: the Assassins don't gain faction traits.

For the second point, I see where you are coming from. Looks unintended to me, so hopefully this will be cleared up with an FAQ.

Side bar - Example: A Space Marine army in all other ways the army satisfies the requirements to gain the Combat Doctrine rules, can you actually use the Agent of the Imperium rule to add an assassin? In a Space Marine army of a given Chapter each detachment is a Space Marine <chapter> detachment. The army doesn't actually have any "IMPERIUM" detachments. The Agent of the Imperium only allows you to add an assassin to an IMPERIUM Patrol, Battalion or Brigade. Or can a detachment be identified as more than one thing at the same time?

This is definitely a case of bad rules writing. To prevent an issue in the Talons of the Emperor rule and then fail to use the same language in the Agents of the Imperium rule is a fail on GW's part.

RAW-wise, it depends on exactly what the specific rule detachment rule says. Adepta Sororitas detachments only give Order Convictions to Order units in the detachment. Adeptus Custodes detachments lack such language and thus would impact the Assassin. I expect this will be fixed in the FAQ.

Did they even define what an Imperium detachment is? Logically, it is a detachment made up of Imperium units. However, most other types of detachments have specific rules defining them. Also, I don't recall any rules stating a detachment can't be two types of detachments should it properly fulfill both's requirements.

Aash wrote:
For the first point, in isolation it doesn't allow the Assassin to gain any abilities, but I see how the context provided by the SoS wording suggests that specific wording is required to deny the assassin the ability to gain a trait. I think both interpretations can be argued as valid. I hope an FAQ will clarify this as I'm not convinced one way or the other. Just because the SoS rule has redundant language, doesn't necessarily change the meaning of the Assassin rule which lacks the same redundant language. I would be very surprised if the decision was to allow Assassins to gain faction traits etc. HIWPI: the Assassins don't gain faction traits.

For the second point, I see where you are coming from. Looks unintended to me, so hopefully this will be cleared up with an FAQ.

Side bar - Example: A Space Marine army in all other ways the army satisfies the requirements to gain the Combat Doctrine rules, can you actually use the Agent of the Imperium rule to add an assassin? In a Space Marine army of a given Chapter each detachment is a Space Marine <chapter> detachment. The army doesn't actually have any "IMPERIUM" detachments. The Agent of the Imperium only allows you to add an assassin to an IMPERIUM Patrol, Battalion or Brigade. Or can a detachment be identified as more than one thing at the same time?

1) It's not a case of the Assassin rule granting the trait, it's the fact the rule for the Trait gives the buff to all units in that detachment, even if for whatever reason there is an invalid unit inside it and that invalid-ness is being negated by another rule. The Assassin rule doesn't prevent them from getting the trait, so they get the trait. To not give them the trait would be breaking the rule that grants the trait.

2) I mean, they never fixed it for Inquisitors who technically (I think) have the same "issue". Also why Inquisitors weren't reprinted in the PA for Agents of the Imperium is a mystery not even the Scooby-Doo gang could solve.

3) You don't pick or choose to make a detachment anything, it simply "is". A Detachment that has only IMPERIUM units is an IMPERIUM detachment. The fact it is also a <CHAPTER> detachment, an ADEPTUS ASTARTES detachment, and a "Space Marines Detachment" (as defined in the codex) is irrelevant, as it is still an IMPERIUM detachment.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
2) I mean, they never fixed it for Inquisitors who technically (I think) have the same "issue". Also why Inquisitors weren't reprinted in the PA for Agents of the Imperium is a mystery not even the Scooby-Doo gang could solve

This member of the Scooby gang sees into the future where Psychic Awakening Pariah includes a new Inquisitor model. Is that a clue the rules for the Inquisition will appear in that book including the Agents of the Imperium? We shall stay on the case.

 alextroy wrote:
This is definitely a case of bad rules writing. To prevent an issue in the Talons of the Emperor rule and then fail to use the same language in the Agents of the Imperium rule is a fail on GW's part.

RAW-wise, it depends on exactly what the specific rule detachment rule says. Adepta Sororitas detachments only give Order Convictions to Order units in the detachment. Adeptus Custodes detachments lack such language and thus would impact the Assassin. I expect this will be fixed in the FAQ.

Did they even define what an Imperium detachment is? Logically, it is a detachment made up of Imperium units. However, most other types of detachments have specific rules defining them.

That's actually a good catch. Perhaps that will be the template going forward in 9th edition? It might also just be the case that even though they have the "Pious and the Penitent" rule preventing non-<ORDER> units from breaking or benefiting, they thought it was cleaner/more intuitive? Or perhaps it was because the codex was written after the Inquisition and Assassins WD indexes and they caught that issue?

And while they have never really defined what "KEYWORD Detachment" means in the strictest of terms (other than the stupid Vigilus FAQ that totally ignores all other examples and the extrapolated rules), it can be extrapolated from the "Factions" section on page 240 of the BRB to mean that a detachment where all the units in the detachment share "KEYWORD", then it is a "KEYWORD Detachment".

And since a lot of people seem to misunderstand my "intentions" (ironic (or is it)), I am simply pointing out the RaW. I fully agree it's stupid, but I also thing there are a lot of other stupid RaW situations,such as Dante being less inspiring to his Troops than some random no-name Ultramarines Successor Chapter Master, Space Wolf/Blood Angel/Dark Angels Successors somehow not having Chapter Masters and amnesiac Land Raider crew who forget how to Space Wolf/Blood Angel/Dark Angel, or Hand Flamers being able to hit a hypersonic void-craft travelling at Mach 37 seven miles up in the air. When you start to pick and choose, that way lies madness and I want none of it.

They did go a very good job in Codex Adepta Sororitas on this point. They stated twice that non-Order units don't get Convictions, once under Convictions and a second time under the Pious and the Penitent. Did they do the same in Codex Space Marines v2?

GW is often slow to remove rules inconsistencies via FAQ. Remember how long it took them to update the Demolisher Cannon's rules in all the Codexes that use them after the latest Codex Space Marines dropped?

Still, I am very happy my Execution Force will no longer prevent my Sisters of Battle from using Sacred Rites. Now I just need to wait and see if the cost of the Vanguard detachment to field them is too expensive to be worthwhile. War of the Spider is going on my shopping list.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Psychic Awakening: War of the Spider, Page 50 wrote:Agent of the Imperium
If your army is Battle-forged, you can include 1 AGENT OF THE IMPERIUM unit in each IMPERIUM (excluding FALLEN) Patrol, Battalion and Brigade Detachment in your army without those units taking up slots in those Detachments. The inclusion of an AGENT OF THE IMPERIUM unit does not prevent other units from their Detachment from benefiting from Detachment abilities (e.g. Chapter Tactics, Defenders of Humanity etc.), and it does not prevent other units from your army benefiting from abilities that require every model in your army to have that ability (e.g. Combat Doctrines). An AGENT OF THE IMPERIUM unit included in a Patrol, Battalion or Brigade Detachment in this manner is ignored for any rules that state all units from that Detachment must have at least one Faction keyword in common (e.g. in a matched play game) and when determining your Army Faction.

Psychic Awakening: War of the Spider, Page 42 wrote:TALONS OF THE EMPEROR
If your army is Battle-forged, units with the SISTERS OF SILENCE Faction keyword can be included in an ADEPTUS CUSTODES Detachment in your army, without preventing that Detachment from being an ADEPTUS CUSTODES Detachment. Note that this does not prevent ADEPTUS CUSTODES units in that Detachment from gaining any Detachment abilities (e.g. The Emperor’s Chosen and the Sworn Guardians abilities), however SISTERS OF SILENCE units cannot themselves gain any Detachment abilities. Similarly, those SISTERS OF SILENCE units are ignored for any rules that state all units from that Detachment must have at least one Faction keyword in common (e.g. in a matched play game) and when determining your army’s Faction.

Codex: Adeptus Custodes, Page 72 wrote:In this section you’ll find rules for Battle-forged armies that include ADEPTUS CUSTODES Detachments – that is, any Detachment which only includes ADEPTUS CUSTODES units.
[...]
ABILITIES
If your army is Battle-forged, all INFANTRY and BIKER units in ADEPTUS CUSTODES Detachments gain the Sworn Guardians and the Emperor’s Chosen abilities.

So, if I include a Vindicare Assassin in an ADEPTUS CUSTODES detachment, then as per page 72 of Codex: Adeptus Astartes "This unit’s invulnerable save is improved by 1 (to a maximum of 3+)", thus my 4+ invulnerable save is improved to a 3+. Alternatively, if I included a Vindicare in a RAVEN GUARD detachment, he'd be -3 to hit if he is on terrain and being shot at from more than 12" away (at least 9th will cap that!).

Note the difference in language (highlighted above) between the Sisters of Silence's rule and the Assassin's rule. The SoS explicitly denies benefiting from the detachment trait, which if it didn't by default the rule wouldn't be needed, ergo the default is that they would benefit and thus need a rule saying they don't benefit. By extension, this means the Assassin benefits as there is no rule preventing him from benefiting, and he meets the requirements laid out by the codex to benefit (he is a "unit" in an "ADEPTUS CUSTODES detachment" and his inclusion doesn't prevent the detachment from granting the Detachment Trait.

Did I miss something obvious?

This badly written rule should be renamed The Great Enabler. You can now do a real Imperial Soup Detachment and as long as you have an Assassin in the detachment, it does not stop the detachment's units from benefitting from their doctrines. So, let's run a mixed Brigade comprised partly of Catachan Infantry Squads, Scion Command Squads, Valkyries, Drop Force, and some Lambdan Lions to boot! The rule says they don't not benefit from their doctrines.

HQ: Tempestor Prime (Lambdan Lions, Drop Force)
HQ: Company Commander (Catachans)
HQ: Company Commander (Catachans)
Troops: Infantry Squad (Catachans)
Troops: Infantry Squad (Catachans)
Troops: Infantry Squad (Catachans)
Troops: Infantry Squad (Catachans)
Troops: Scion Squad (Lambdan Lions, Drop Force)
Elites: Scion Command Squad
Elites: Commissar (Catachans)
Elites: Commissar (Catachans)
Fast Attack: Hellhound (Catachans)
Fast Attack: Hellhound (Catachans)
Fast Attack: Hellhound (Catachans)
Heavy Support: Leman Russ (Catachans)
Heavy Support: Leman Russ (Catachans)
Heavy Support: Leman Russ (Catachans)
Flyer: Valkyrie (Lambdan Lions, Drop Force)

Furthermore, if we take another step, units like the Commissar could be seen to benefit from the Regimental Traits (Catachan +1S) and Valkyrie (Lambdan Lions +1AP).

Let the Soup return!

 Slayer6 wrote:

Spoiler:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Psychic Awakening: War of the Spider, Page 50 wrote:Agent of the Imperium
If your army is Battle-forged, you can include 1 AGENT OF THE IMPERIUM unit in each IMPERIUM (excluding FALLEN) Patrol, Battalion and Brigade Detachment in your army without those units taking up slots in those Detachments. The inclusion of an AGENT OF THE IMPERIUM unit does not prevent other units from their Detachment from benefiting from Detachment abilities (e.g. Chapter Tactics, Defenders of Humanity etc.), and it does not prevent other units from your army benefiting from abilities that require every model in your army to have that ability (e.g. Combat Doctrines). An AGENT OF THE IMPERIUM unit included in a Patrol, Battalion or Brigade Detachment in this manner is ignored for any rules that state all units from that Detachment must have at least one Faction keyword in common (e.g. in a matched play game) and when determining your Army Faction.

Psychic Awakening: War of the Spider, Page 42 wrote:TALONS OF THE EMPEROR
If your army is Battle-forged, units with the SISTERS OF SILENCE Faction keyword can be included in an ADEPTUS CUSTODES Detachment in your army, without preventing that Detachment from being an ADEPTUS CUSTODES Detachment. Note that this does not prevent ADEPTUS CUSTODES units in that Detachment from gaining any Detachment abilities (e.g. The Emperor’s Chosen and the Sworn Guardians abilities), however SISTERS OF SILENCE units cannot themselves gain any Detachment abilities. Similarly, those SISTERS OF SILENCE units are ignored for any rules that state all units from that Detachment must have at least one Faction keyword in common (e.g. in a matched play game) and when determining your army’s Faction.

Codex: Adeptus Custodes, Page 72 wrote:In this section you’ll find rules for Battle-forged armies that include ADEPTUS CUSTODES Detachments – that is, any Detachment which only includes ADEPTUS CUSTODES units.
[...]
ABILITIES
If your army is Battle-forged, all INFANTRY and BIKER units in ADEPTUS CUSTODES Detachments gain the Sworn Guardians and the Emperor’s Chosen abilities.

So, if I include a Vindicare Assassin in an ADEPTUS CUSTODES detachment, then as per page 72 of Codex: Adeptus Astartes "This unit’s invulnerable save is improved by 1 (to a maximum of 3+)", thus my 4+ invulnerable save is improved to a 3+. Alternatively, if I included a Vindicare in a RAVEN GUARD detachment, he'd be -3 to hit if he is on terrain and being shot at from more than 12" away (at least 9th will cap that!).

Note the difference in language (highlighted above) between the Sisters of Silence's rule and the Assassin's rule. The SoS explicitly denies benefiting from the detachment trait, which if it didn't by default the rule wouldn't be needed, ergo the default is that they would benefit and thus need a rule saying they don't benefit. By extension, this means the Assassin benefits as there is no rule preventing him from benefiting, and he meets the requirements laid out by the codex to benefit (he is a "unit" in an "ADEPTUS CUSTODES detachment" and his inclusion doesn't prevent the detachment from granting the Detachment Trait.

Did I miss something obvious?

This badly written rule should be renamed The Great Enabler. You can now do a real Imperial Soup Detachment and as long as you have an Assassin in the detachment, it does not stop the detachment's units from benefitting from their doctrines. So, let's run a mixed Brigade comprised partly of Catachan Infantry Squads, Scion Command Squads, Valkyries, Drop Force, and some Lambdan Lions to boot! The rule says they don't not benefit from their doctrines.

HQ: Tempestor Prime (Lambdan Lions, Drop Force)
HQ: Company Commander (Catachans)
HQ: Company Commander (Catachans)
Troops: Infantry Squad (Catachans)
Troops: Infantry Squad (Catachans)
Troops: Infantry Squad (Catachans)
Troops: Infantry Squad (Catachans)
Troops: Scion Squad (Lambdan Lions, Drop Force)
Elites: Scion Command Squad
Elites: Commissar (Catachans)
Elites: Commissar (Catachans)
Fast Attack: Hellhound (Catachans)
Fast Attack: Hellhound (Catachans)
Fast Attack: Hellhound (Catachans)
Heavy Support: Leman Russ (Catachans)
Heavy Support: Leman Russ (Catachans)
Heavy Support: Leman Russ (Catachans)
Flyer: Valkyrie (Lambdan Lions, Drop Force)

Those rules state no such thing. The Agent of the Imperium doesn't count. It says nothing about the rules for detachment not still applying outside of the Assassin.

It depends on the wording of the specific detachment trait. The custodes one would pass to the assassin, though we presumably all agree that isn't intended and is just bad rule writing.

But most other rules don't, because they are limited. E.x. the SoB rules say that each unit in the deatchment that has <order> gets the benefit, so the assassin wouldn't. Same for ad mech - benefiting is based on being <forge world>, not just in the detachment.

Space marine bonuses do pass over, since they say "every unit."

 alextroy wrote:
Those rules state no such thing. The Agent of the Imperium doesn't count. It says nothing about the rules for detachment not still applying outside of the Assassin.

It doesn't actually just specify that, it just vaguely implies that... So it can be interpreted/misinterpreted in a variety of ways - such as BCB's. My way is just inflammatory!

 Slayer6 wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
Those rules state no such thing. The Agent of the Imperium doesn't count. It says nothing about the rules for detachment not still applying outside of the Assassin.

It doesn't actually just specify that, it just vaguely implies that... So it can be interpreted/misinterpreted in a variety of ways - such as BCB's. My way is just inflammatory!

Except BCB's reading, while almost certain;y not RAI, is backed by RAW. Yours is not.

As is, RAW, the assasins do gain it.

I don't think it was intended, but honestly I don't think its overpowered either. In fact, id almost say that currently assasins are almost useless thinking about the 9th edition changes to LOS character protections without it.

Congratulations! Your Assassins now benefit from Custodes army traits... for the whole turn they'll be on the table before being erased by the enemy gunline. Betcha wish you'd spent that 95 points on something else now, right?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Congratulations! Your Assassins now benefit from Custodes army traits... for the whole turn they'll be on the table before being erased by the enemy gunline. Betcha wish you'd spent that 95 points on something else now, right?

Until they are characters in 9th ed... (Like they are now)...

I might be obtuse but a quick question:

From my understanding Assassin's don't prevent Sisters Detachments from gaining an Order Conviction like VH, BR, etc.

Do they prevent the army from gaining Sacred Rites? It says "if every unit in the army has either the AS or AM keywords then those units receive Sacred Rites" so I'm assuming that the army as whole gets Sacred Rites but the Assassin would be the only unit to not benefit but the AS/AM units still get it?

I'm leaning toward AS still get Sacred Rites, just not the Assassin.

jivardi wrote:
I might be obtuse but a quick question:

From my understanding Assassin's don't prevent Sisters Detachments from gaining an Order Conviction like VH, BR, etc.

Do they prevent the army from gaining Sacred Rites? It says "if every unit in the army has either the AS or AM keywords then those units receive Sacred Rites" so I'm assuming that the army as whole gets Sacred Rites but the Assassin would be the only unit to not benefit but the AS/AM units still get it?

I'm leaning toward AS still get Sacred Rites, just not the Assassin.

Correct. Sisters are an anomaly as their detachment trait explicitly calls out only <ORDER> units from benefiting (unlike other detachment traits that only says "units"). Their Combat Doctrines equivalent, Sacred Rites, will also only affect AS and AM units as Sacred Rites says "those units" will benefit. Likewise for Combat Doctrines, only models with Combat Doctrines special rule benefits. So the Assassin won't ever benefit from a Sisters detachment trait or Sacred Rites, but won't prevent <ORDER>, AS or AM (as applicable) units in that detachment from benefiting from Trait or Sacred Rites.

 p5freak wrote:

Drager wrote:
It's not an Adeptus Custodes detachment with regards to the assassin. It's a mixed Imperial detachment. It's only an Adeptus Custodes detachment with regards to the other models. So the assassin doesn't benefit.

No, read the Agent of the Imperium rule quoted in the first post.

I did. That's how I came to my conclusion. It says it doesn't prevent other units from benefiting. It doesn't fall under the category 'other units'.