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Hey everyone,
So just like the subject line says: Why the heck are Tartaros and Cataphractii Terminators so inherently limited in their equipment choices?

I mean, the obvious reason is because GW says so... but beyond that it just seems odd that with all the variants on equipment your standard Terminator armor gets to choose from, if you go with one of these old-timey-charm terminators suddenly you are stuck with extremely few options.

So what gives? Would it really be broken to include a reaper autocannon in your Cataphractii squad? Would it really make SM completely overpowered if Tartaros squads could all wield Volkite Chargers?

I'll admit, I got very excited when I first saw these new dudes when I decided to get back into the hobby after a long absence... but now I'm very "meh" about their possibilities.

It's limited to what weapons are on the plastic sprues. Unfortunately this seems to be the common reasoning for GW these days.

to sell the Legion upgrades from FW Sekhmet, Gravegribblys etc

I think the 40k rules were shoehorned in, they were meant to be HH models.

So that 40K players buy the plastics and the 30K players keep buying the more expensive and varied FW kits, rather than cheaping out on the plastics.

Insectum7 wrote:It's limited to what weapons are on the plastic sprues. Unfortunately this seems to be the common reasoning for GW these days.

phillv85 wrote:I think the 40k rules were shoehorned in, they were meant to be HH models.

Both of these basically.

GW has oddly stuck to HH era Terminator weapons largely being only for CSM's or only available in 30k, while options like the Assault Cannon remain only available to loyalist 40k marines. So Red Corsair Terminators somehow lost all their post-heresy rotary assault cannons, but found a bunch of Reapers somewhere, the Traitor Legions never appeared to ever salvage or manufacture any Assault Cannons of their own but kept their Reapers all this time, while the loyalist Dark Angels (first and oldest of chapters) and with a heavy doctrinal emphasis on Terminators appears to have no Reapers at all, and everyone lost all their Volkite weapons at some point

 Vaktathi wrote:
everyone lost all their Volkite weapons at some point

I guess Cawl took them all and has spent 10k years upgrading them!

 Vaktathi wrote:

Insectum7 wrote:It's limited to what weapons are on the plastic sprues. Unfortunately this seems to be the common reasoning for GW these days.

phillv85 wrote:I think the 40k rules were shoehorned in, they were meant to be HH models.

Both of these basically.

GW has oddly stuck to HH era Terminator weapons largely being only for CSM's or only available in 30k, while options like the Assault Cannon remain only available to loyalist 40k marines. So Red Corsair Terminators somehow lost all their post-heresy rotary assault cannons, but found a bunch of Reapers somewhere, the Traitor Legions never appeared to ever salvage or manufacture any Assault Cannons of their own but kept their Reapers all this time, while the loyalist Dark Angels (first and oldest of chapters) and with a heavy doctrinal emphasis on Terminators appears to have no Reapers at all, and everyone lost all their Volkite weapons at some point

And all the legions except Death Guard and Thousand Sons apparently threw away their Heresy pattern terminator armour.

another reason is balance, I mean let's face it, if Taratos termy armor had the same options indomatus pattern armor had who the hell would take indomatus armor ever?

leerm02 wrote:

Hey everyone,
So just like the subject line says: Why the heck are Tartaros and Cataphractii Terminators so inherently limited in their equipment choices?

I mean, the obvious reason is because GW says so... but beyond that it just seems odd that with all the variants on equipment your standard Terminator armor gets to choose from, if you go with one of these old-timey-charm terminators suddenly you are stuck with extremely few options.

So what gives? Would it really be broken to include a reaper autocannon in your Cataphractii squad? Would it really make SM completely overpowered if Tartaros squads could all wield Volkite Chargers?

I'll admit, I got very excited when I first saw these new dudes when I decided to get back into the hobby after a long absence... but now I'm very "meh" about their possibilities.

This is just my two cents, but I think at one point GW was seriously considering taking 30K full plastic. For some reason, they abandoned that prospect.

I can tell you the 30K players in my area love to speculate that it was all a ploy to kill 30K and dissolve FW. But, I dunno. All of that stuff sold extremely well. One of my local stores kept a count and they sold 58 boxes of Betrayal at Calth, and 42 boxes of Burning of Prospero. That's a lot of product for a small store to move over a period of a few months.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Stux wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
everyone lost all their Volkite weapons at some point

I guess Cawl took them all and has spent 10k years upgrading them!

Yeah, I hear they've come back with new volkite!

BrianDavion wrote:
another reason is balance, I mean let's face it, if Taratos termy armor had the same options indomatus pattern armor had who the hell would take indomatus armor ever?

Depends on point cost eh?

If better armour costs more there's reason to take worse armour now wouldn't there?

It’s crazy that these aren’t available for CSM, they should have just put a data card for CSM in the box

It really does seem that the 40k rules were an afterthought. If what Togusa says is true, then it seems a case that they realised they didn't want a plastic kit in stores that couldn't be used in 40k so they slapped some rules on pretty quickly.

No model.
No rule.

That simple.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
No model.
No rule.

That simple.

And what about the models prevents them from being used by csm? They work just fine for all 18 legions in hh.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
No model.
No rule.

That simple.

What about the Forge World parts?

The two 30k mark terminator units are not even consistent about how you can mix bolters/claws/chainfist/powerfists.

It was GW's feeble attempt to sell left over stocks of Betrayal at Calth boxes. (FYI, HH boxed sets sale stopped around a year into 8th ed)

If you seriously believe there are any other reasons, you're giving GW way too much credit.

The are on their way out with the rest of the old marine line. Why worry about them? Primaris in Gravis is your new Terminator.

Eh, I've still got some hope for the "classic" marines left in me :-) Especially terminators. I've been loving that tactical dreadnought armor since I was a kid!

They're gorgeous though. The Tartaros Terminators especially. The new CSM Terminators are where it's at if you're nostalgic for the tubby Terminators of Rogue Trader, which I have likewise loved since I was a kid.

 skchsan wrote:
It was GW's feeble attempt to sell left over stocks of Betrayal at Calth boxes. (FYI, HH boxed sets sale stopped around a year into 8th ed)

If you seriously believe there are any other reasons, you're giving GW way too much credit.

even from day one the box gave us 40k rules for that stuff, and people where buying it up in droves, there was no need to "enchourage sales"

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
And what about the models prevents them from being used by csm?

They're not spiky/corrupted. They're not Chaos models. Therefore no Chaos rules.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
What about the Forge World parts?

What about them? GW isn't about to put rules for FW-only items into a standard Codex.

 skchsan wrote:
It was GW's feeble attempt to sell left over stocks of Betrayal at Calth boxes.

I doubt that they put them on shelves to get rid of old stock, otherwise they'd be long gone by now.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
And all the legions except Death Guard and Thousand Sons apparently threw away their Heresy pattern terminator armour.

All the other legions lack facilities or inclination to maintain the suits, just as the Death Guard dont care, and most of the Thousand Sons suits arent exactly full of body.

Its the standard argument for why CSM uses different equipment, they stick to things that are easier to maintain, or can be pillaged from the Imperium and kept supplied.

Fictional wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
And all the legions except Death Guard and Thousand Sons apparently threw away their Heresy pattern terminator armour.

All the other legions lack facilities or inclination to maintain the suits, just as the Death Guard dont care, and most of the Thousand Sons suits arent exactly full of body.

Its the standard argument for why CSM uses different equipment, they stick to things that are easier to maintain, or can be pillaged from the Imperium and kept supplied.

Why would they not have the inclination to maintain superior equipment? They can keep up Heresy era tanks, dreadnoughts, and drop pods but not armour? Chaos ships are older superior designs as well and you don't see them them throwing those away. The Dark Mechanicus is a thing as well. This is the typical loyalist response of "we get better stuff because we're better".

Complex economic reasons? They touch on it a bit in the Black Legion series, and the Night Lords series. The long and the short is that they have a severe red-on-red problem.

Also, functioning heresy era equipment/vehicles can be explained in 2 ways.

1) time doesn't work right in the warp. That tank might only be 1 year older then the heresy. Not 10k. Or anywhere in between.

2) deamon infused machines. Not really needing maintenance if its basically alive.

Both of those are reason why its not maintained also.

1) time doesn't work right. That terminator armor may have aged to dust.

2) deamon infused machines. You don't want to put on living terminator armor that wants to eat you like those chaos drop pods did.

1: None of the other old equipment has turned to dust.

2: For the billionth time, all the Traitor Legions don't. Worship. Chaos.

And those drop pods don't kill their passengers because they're possessed by daemons. They have psychotic machine spirits, and they were that way before the Heresy. Daemons are actually scared to ride in them.

There is no good reason why the marines who actually fought in the Heresy shouldn't have Heresy pattern terminator armour. All the mark 3, 4 , and 5 armour they had in the Heresy still works just fine.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

2: For the billionth time, all the Traitor Legions don't. Worship. Chaos.

no they just hang out in the eye of terror because they're so pure they drive the deamons away.

It doesn't matter if they worship chaos. they are saturated with it.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

2: For the billionth time, all the Traitor Legions don't. Worship. Chaos.

no they just hang out in the eye of terror because they're so pure they drive the deamons away.

It doesn't matter if they worship chaos. they are saturated with it.

It matters in the sense that if they don't worship chaos then they don't run around with daemons and stick them in all of their equipment. If all traitor marines armour is possessed then why do they have the same stats as loyalists? If standard power armour and indomutus pattern terminator armour don't behave any differently when used by csm then neither would tartaros or cataphractii. There is no reason the legions wouldn't have the armour they took into The Eye with them.