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New Moral rules

Seemingly positive all around. Hordes lose less, leadership debuffs could be worthwhile for swinging marines into failure territory.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
New Moral rules

More dice rolls. exactly what 40k needed !

Repeating what I said in the other thread: This makes hordes more viable, but MSU is still A-OK. A five-man Ld8 squad can lose 3 members and still only fails on a 6.

Kill four out of five, and the survivor has a 33% chance of failing the test, and then a 33% chance of fleeing. So killing 4/5 members of a squad results in just an 11% chance of the last one fleeing- which is actually lower than the current chance, where the last guy would flee 33% of the time.

And this was supposed to make MSU less attractive?

Edit: Whoops, I completely left out the one model automatically fleeing from failing the test. Killing 4/5 members has the same 33% chance of the last one fleeing as currently. Killing 3/5 means a 22% chance of one fleeing, and a 11% chance of both fleeing. Current probability at 3 casualties is 17% chance of losing one, 17% chance of losing both. So... still not really a nerf to MSU.

This hurts hordes more in the cases where they lose fewer models but still fail, right?
Say you have 30 cultists, and lose 5 of them, then fail your morale. Now you would lose 3-4 from morale. In 9th you will lose 1 + 4-5 (I think?).
The situation is better for you if you lose 14 cultists, but worse if you lose fewer.

I was really hoping for unit penalties rather than just removing models. Like Going to Ground, Snap shots, force fallbacks, force move to cover, etc.. something that actually is psychological and not just .... i got bonus kills.

Rihgu wrote:
This hurts hordes more in the cases where they lose fewer models but still fail, right?
Say you have 30 cultists, and lose 5 of them, then fail your morale. Now you would lose 3-4 from morale. In 9th you will lose 1 + 4-5 (I think?).
The situation is better for you if you lose 14 cultists, but worse if you lose fewer.

If you can drop the enemy unit below half it's strength, the chance for models to run increases. If you kill 16 out of 30 cultists, you roll 14 D6 and every roll of a 1 or 2 results in someone running. If you only killed 14 out of 30 cultists, the roll would only be on a 1

 catbarf wrote:
Repeating what I said in the other thread: This makes hordes more viable, but MSU is still A-OK. A five-man Ld8 squad can lose 3 members and still only fails on a 6.

Kill four out of five, and the survivor has a 33% chance of failing the test, and then a 33% chance of fleeing. So killing 4/5 members of a squad results in just an 11% chance of the last one fleeing- which is actually lower than the current chance, where the last guy would flee 33% of the time.

And this was supposed to make MSU less attractive?

Not quite true - if you kill 4/5 of the unit and it fails the Morale test the survivor dies. One model always dies if you fail the initial test.

Seems like it still doesn't hurt MSU armies at all, so I don't think we'll see too many people changing away from that style of list. I really hope they remove all the current immunity to morale rules though because this is going to make morale probably even less impactful than it is now unless they do so.

Isn't the problem with MSU the armies that have them don't need (ignoring the morale rule for a moment) to go above the minimum sizes for units anyway?
Yeah there's some niche uses in say Dark Angels with a 10-man Hellblaster unit. But the Intercessor/Tactical's of the game don't need to go above 5 models anyway so unless you do something that cripples them for losing 1 model the smaller squads will nearly always be fine.

At which point you need to apply that to Hordes or have multiple morale rules that trigger based on the size of the unit which is a level of complexity I don't think many people want.

The rule looks fine as is though, and doesn't penalise large blocks of 'gaunts/cultists/etc as much which I take as an improvement even if Marines (that were notably ignoring morale in multiple editions anyway) aren't as affected as before.

 catbarf wrote:
Repeating what I said in the other thread: This makes hordes more viable, but MSU is still A-OK. A five-man Ld8 squad can lose 3 members and still only fails on a 6.

Kill four out of five, and the survivor has a 33% chance of failing the test, and then a 33% chance of fleeing. So killing 4/5 members of a squad results in just an 11% chance of the last one fleeing- which is actually lower than the current chance, where the last guy would flee 33% of the time.

And this was supposed to make MSU less attractive?

Current system - lose 3, roll 6, lose 1 model
New system - lose 3, roll 6, lose 1 model and 1/6 of the rest

Depends on the degree of failure. Lots of math needs to be done.

I like it how it removes the swingy-ness of the current morale rules. I also like how the attrition rules are expandable and could allow for previously useless abilities (-1Ld? Oh no!) to actually have a role in the game.

 catbarf wrote:
And this was supposed to make MSU less attractive?

You're implying that GW understands what an MSU even is. They don't play the same game as we do, so the thought of taking smaller units to avoid certain rule interactions never even occurs to them.

 Thadin wrote:

Rihgu wrote:
This hurts hordes more in the cases where they lose fewer models but still fail, right?
Say you have 30 cultists, and lose 5 of them, then fail your morale. Now you would lose 3-4 from morale. In 9th you will lose 1 + 4-5 (I think?).
The situation is better for you if you lose 14 cultists, but worse if you lose fewer.

If you can drop the enemy unit below half it's strength, the chance for models to run increases. If you kill 16 out of 30 cultists, you roll 14 D6 and every roll of a 1 or 2 results in someone running. If you only killed 14 out of 30 cultists, the roll would only be on a 1

That's still only 4-5 losses (2x as many flee from attrition but you're rolling less dice). Which means the less models die, the harsher morale is (relatively speaking). Which is a little strange.

So a 30 man blob that loses 5 will double losses from morale, whereas a 30 man blob that loses 16 will only take 25% more casualties from it.

They missed an opportunity for a way of addressing units without removing their models from the board.

The morale change is making me rethink taking my usual 3x 10-man intercessor squads as Ultramarines. It'll take a lot of feeling things out to make the right choice in the end,

 Thadin wrote:
The morale change is making me rethink taking my usual 3x 10-man intercessor squads as Ultramarines. It'll take a lot of feeling things out to make the right choice in the end,

Thinking a bit more about this.

If I have a 5 man and I lose 3 I would only fail the test on a 6 (barring modifiers), lose another, and gives me 33% squad wipe. Losing 3 in a 10 man loses me one more and then one additional on average. So, I guess the raw numbers are similar, but I guess it depends if you want to hold objectives.

 BroodSpawn wrote:
Isn't the problem with MSU the armies that have them don't need (ignoring the morale rule for a moment) to go above the minimum sizes for units anyway?
Yeah there's some niche uses in say Dark Angels with a 10-man Hellblaster unit. But the Intercessor/Tactical's of the game don't need to go above 5 models anyway so unless you do something that cripples them for losing 1 model the smaller squads will nearly always be fine.

At which point you need to apply that to Hordes or have multiple morale rules that trigger based on the size of the unit which is a level of complexity I don't think many people want.

The rule looks fine as is though, and doesn't penalise large blocks of 'gaunts/cultists/etc as much which I take as an improvement even if Marines (that were notably ignoring morale in multiple editions anyway) aren't as affected as before.

The true nerf to MSU came from the new "Lookout sir". 5 man units are terrible at protecting chars, and 3 man units are even worse.
Marines will surely not be really worried about morale, but for sure they are worried about losing chars.

Rihgu wrote:
This hurts hordes more in the cases where they lose fewer models but still fail, right?
Say you have 30 cultists, and lose 5 of them, then fail your morale. Now you would lose 3-4 from morale. In 9th you will lose 1 + 4-5 (I think?).
The situation is better for you if you lose 14 cultists, but worse if you lose fewer.

Current: 5 die, lose 4
New: 5 die, lose 1, lose 4

An increase of 1, however, it's pretty much a big win if your cultists took only 5 casualties to begin with.

On the other end - if 15 die...

Current: 15 die then likely squad wipe
New : 15 die, lose 1, lose 5

People will have to put more effort into removing Cultists.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 catbarf wrote:
Repeating what I said in the other thread: This makes hordes more viable, but MSU is still A-OK. A five-man Ld8 squad can lose 3 members and still only fails on a 6.

Kill four out of five, and the survivor has a 33% chance of failing the test, and then a 33% chance of fleeing. So killing 4/5 members of a squad results in just an 11% chance of the last one fleeing- which is actually lower than the current chance, where the last guy would flee 33% of the time.

And this was supposed to make MSU less attractive?

Current system - lose 3, roll 6, lose 1 model
New system - lose 3, roll 6, lose 1 model and 1/6 of the rest

Depends on the degree of failure. Lots of math needs to be done.

Old system against Night Lords - lose 3, roll 6, lose 2 models.
New system - lose 3, roll 6, lose 1 model and maybe 1/6 of the rest.

And I did the old system assuming I only have one unit within 6 and haven't done anything else to decrease the target's leadership (butcher cannons, raptors, etc). They said this would help Night Lords. I'm not seeing it. We're trading guaranteed losses on high dice rolls to hoping our opponent rolls lots of 1s.

Yeah so running the numbers on a 10-man squad at Ld8 that sustains four casualties:

Current system- a roll of 5 loses an extra model, a roll of 6 loses two, so average 0.5 additional morale casualties.

New system- 33% chance to fail the morale test and lose a model, then a 17% chance for each of the remaining 5 survivors, for a total average loss of 0.62 casualties.

If they sustain six casualties:

Current system- Lose one model on 3, two on 4, etc. Average loss of 1.67 additional.

New system- 67% chance to fail, then remaining three survivors each have a 33% chance to flee, for a total average loss of 1.33 models.

So... Different from the current system, overall. I'm not sure it's an improvement for anything except really large hordes. It certainly doesn't do what they claimed it would do, which is incentivize medium-sized squads.

Spoletta wrote:

 BroodSpawn wrote:
Isn't the problem with MSU the armies that have them don't need (ignoring the morale rule for a moment) to go above the minimum sizes for units anyway?
Yeah there's some niche uses in say Dark Angels with a 10-man Hellblaster unit. But the Intercessor/Tactical's of the game don't need to go above 5 models anyway so unless you do something that cripples them for losing 1 model the smaller squads will nearly always be fine.

At which point you need to apply that to Hordes or have multiple morale rules that trigger based on the size of the unit which is a level of complexity I don't think many people want.

The rule looks fine as is though, and doesn't penalise large blocks of 'gaunts/cultists/etc as much which I take as an improvement even if Marines (that were notably ignoring morale in multiple editions anyway) aren't as affected as before.

The true nerf to MSU came from the new "Lookout sir". 5 man units are terrible at protecting chars, and 3 man units are even worse.
Marines will surely not be really worried about morale, but for sure they are worried about losing chars.

I agree. And MSU already get the short end of the stick from Psychic powers and Strategems.

Spoletta wrote:

 BroodSpawn wrote:
Isn't the problem with MSU the armies that have them don't need (ignoring the morale rule for a moment) to go above the minimum sizes for units anyway?
Yeah there's some niche uses in say Dark Angels with a 10-man Hellblaster unit. But the Intercessor/Tactical's of the game don't need to go above 5 models anyway so unless you do something that cripples them for losing 1 model the smaller squads will nearly always be fine.

At which point you need to apply that to Hordes or have multiple morale rules that trigger based on the size of the unit which is a level of complexity I don't think many people want.

The rule looks fine as is though, and doesn't penalise large blocks of 'gaunts/cultists/etc as much which I take as an improvement even if Marines (that were notably ignoring morale in multiple editions anyway) aren't as affected as before.

The true nerf to MSU came from the new "Lookout sir". 5 man units are terrible at protecting chars, and 3 man units are even worse.
Marines will surely not be really worried about morale, but for sure they are worried about losing chars.

What's the new Look Out Sir! rule?

Nurglitch wrote:
What's the new Look Out Sir! rule?

You can target characters freely unlike 8th, but certain sized units can protect them. 3 models can. 2 models can't.

Nurglitch wrote:
What's the new Look Out Sir! rule?

8th Ed character protection only applies if you're within 3" of a Monster, Vehicle, or squad of 3+ models. Otherwise characters can be freely targeted.

I kind of like the new morale rule, the attrition rule will make things interesting,

Atsknf still leaves 5 men marine MSU units untouched due to having them never really failing morale even with 4 deaths...I'd like to see that rule change to ignore the additional -1 for Attrition rather than having it the way it is...

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:
What's the new Look Out Sir! rule?

You can target characters freely unlike 8th, but certain sized units can protect them. 3 models can. 2 models can't.

Okay, thank you (and you too, Catbarf). So why is 3 models worse at doing that than 5 models?

Nurglitch wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:
What's the new Look Out Sir! rule?

You can target characters freely unlike 8th, but certain sized units can protect them. 3 models can. 2 models can't.

Okay, thank you (and you too, Catbarf). So why is 3 models worse at doing that than 5 models?

I imagine because you only need to kill one to be able to then start targeting the character they were protecting.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:
What's the new Look Out Sir! rule?

You can target characters freely unlike 8th, but certain sized units can protect them. 3 models can. 2 models can't.

Okay, thank you (and you too, Catbarf). So why is 3 models worse at doing that than 5 models?

I imagine because you only need to kill one to be able to then start targeting the character they were protecting.

Good point!

Nurglitch wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:
What's the new Look Out Sir! rule?

You can target characters freely unlike 8th, but certain sized units can protect them. 3 models can. 2 models can't.

Okay, thank you (and you too, Catbarf). So why is 3 models worse at doing that than 5 models?

Because i kill a single model from the 3 model unit and now you char is in sight.

On a 5 men i need to kill 3.

On a 10 men i need to kill 8.


You can see that trying to protect a char using MSU squads can have big issues.

Siegfriedfr wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
New Moral rules

More dice rolls. exactly what 40k needed !

what they done said, fingers crossed atsknf gets tweak to per model as SM loves them rerolls