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I certainly remember blood angles having to roll to see how many of their veterans had to join the death company, rolling to see if they can't hold back their rage and move forward, and the turbo charged rhinos.
Some of it is fun, some also feels bad like when your commissar shoots your officer in IG.
BanjoJohn wrote: I certainly remember blood angles having to roll to see how many of their veterans had to join the death company, rolling to see if they can't hold back their rage and move forward, and the turbo charged rhinos.
Some of it is fun, some also feels bad like when your commissar shoots your officer in IG.
I think the "feels bad" on the BA part was pretty minor. I'm mostly remembering that because of Black Rage coupled with the turbocharged Rhinos they could get a possible 32" (6+18+2+6) Assault off at the start of the game. That was craaaazyy.
Insectum7 wrote: I have to ask if you have a Blood Angels player in the group I found 3rd to be mostly pretty great except for their particular involvement. That Rhino rush attack was very irritating.
A full LOD army sorted out the Blood Angels on one occasion. Simply going first sorted them out on other occasions. Them being stupid enough to sweeping advance and get shot by the entire army also sorted them out. That codex was OP gak but it was mitigatable if you knew what to target.
Insectum7 wrote: I have to ask if you have a Blood Angels player in the group I found 3rd to be mostly pretty great except for their particular involvement. That Rhino rush attack was very irritating.
A full LOD army sorted out the Blood Angels on one occasion. Simply going first sorted them out on other occasions. Them being stupid enough to sweeping advance and get shot by the entire army also sorted them out. That codex was OP gak but it was mitigatable if you knew what to target.
Oh I agree that it was counterable, and our local player at the time quit once I found the counters, but it was sooo annoying that it was even a thing. Like, every codex had mistakes or flaws (such as an undercosted Starcannon), but that's a simple thing. The 32" assault potential was like . . . mind boggling how that was allowed to print. Too many stacked special rules.
Insectum7 wrote: I have to ask if you have a Blood Angels player in the group I found 3rd to be mostly pretty great except for their particular involvement. That Rhino rush attack was very irritating.
A full LOD army sorted out the Blood Angels on one occasion. Simply going first sorted them out on other occasions. Them being stupid enough to sweeping advance and get shot by the entire army also sorted them out. That codex was OP gak but it was mitigatable if you knew what to target.
Oh I agree that it was counterable, and our local player at the time quit once I found the counters, but it was sooo annoying that it was even a thing. Like, every codex had mistakes or flaws (such as an undercosted Starcannon), but that's a simple thing. The 32" assault potential was like . . . mind boggling how that was allowed to print. Too many stacked special rules.
And nowadays, with a smaller board...
Outriders move 12", Advance 9" (for 2 CP, admittedly) and Charge 2d6" for a threat range of 23"-33".
And they've got 4 attacks at S5 AP-1 D2 on the charge.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
Insectum7 wrote: I have to ask if you have a Blood Angels player in the group I found 3rd to be mostly pretty great except for their particular involvement. That Rhino rush attack was very irritating.
A full LOD army sorted out the Blood Angels on one occasion. Simply going first sorted them out on other occasions. Them being stupid enough to sweeping advance and get shot by the entire army also sorted them out. That codex was OP gak but it was mitigatable if you knew what to target.
Oh I agree that it was counterable, and our local player at the time quit once I found the counters, but it was sooo annoying that it was even a thing. Like, every codex had mistakes or flaws (such as an undercosted Starcannon), but that's a simple thing. The 32" assault potential was like . . . mind boggling how that was allowed to print. Too many stacked special rules.
Gav has got to Gav, I suppose. The Chaos 3.5 codex was worse in my mind, but the Blood Angels codex never should have been released.
BanjoJohn wrote: I certainly remember blood angles having to roll to see how many of their veterans had to join the death company, rolling to see if they can't hold back their rage and move forward, and the turbo charged rhinos.
Some of it is fun, some also feels bad like when your commissar shoots your officer in IG.
I think the "feels bad" on the BA part was pretty minor. I'm mostly remembering that because of Black Rage coupled with the turbocharged Rhinos they could get a possible 32" (6+18+2+6) Assault off at the start of the game. That was craaaazyy.
For me it felt bad to see beautiful blood angel terminator squads reduced by unlucky rolls as members got moved into the death company right before a battle.
Insectum7 wrote: I have to ask if you have a Blood Angels player in the group I found 3rd to be mostly pretty great except for their particular involvement. That Rhino rush attack was very irritating.
A full LOD army sorted out the Blood Angels on one occasion. Simply going first sorted them out on other occasions. Them being stupid enough to sweeping advance and get shot by the entire army also sorted them out. That codex was OP gak but it was mitigatable if you knew what to target.
Oh I agree that it was counterable, and our local player at the time quit once I found the counters, but it was sooo annoying that it was even a thing. Like, every codex had mistakes or flaws (such as an undercosted Starcannon), but that's a simple thing. The 32" assault potential was like . . . mind boggling how that was allowed to print. Too many stacked special rules.
And nowadays, with a smaller board...
Outriders move 12", Advance 9" (for 2 CP, admittedly) and Charge 2d6" for a threat range of 23"-33".
And they've got 4 attacks at S5 AP-1 D2 on the charge.
So, yes that's true. But the paradigm is so different I'd argue it's not a worthwhile comparison. When your basic Marine (or most troops actually) can't shoot farther than 12" on the move, and has to choose between shooting and Assaulting, and Heavy Weapons have to stand still to fire. . . The whole system was primarily balanced around these distinct and limited hard choices. And then BA Rhinos are just blazing around delivering troops into Assaults faster than Dark Eldar can. Mad silly.
Gav has got to Gav, I suppose. The Chaos 3.5 codex was worse in my mind, but the Blood Angels codex never should have been released.
Gav did have to Gav! Do you remember the Harlequin army from the Citadel Journal? The one where the Solitaire got an extra attack for every inch of unused charge range (which was 12").
I thought the Chaos 3.5 book made way more sense thematically speaking, and the crazy stuff it could do usually came at a cost. Plus, with so many options I think it's more understandable that some of them get wonky. The BA book was so thin, but somehow got all crazy anyways. Also the BA wackiness came almost free, iirc. I think just some extra points for the supercharged engines, and the rest of it was just free special rules to get that 32" potential range. (Gav did not have a hand in the Chaos book, btw. Not sure if you were implying that or not)
Speaking of old editions though! I've got a pic of my WIP Full Metal Eldar army:
Some of these models were bouncing around a friends garage for a decade or two, and the rest is a slow collection from ebay to round things out. The big hiccup is all the old metal Guardians without arms. I have a couple of the original arm sprues with a collection of guns and CC weapons, but not nearly enough to do all the bodies I have. I'll probably wind up sculpting and printing arms with Shuriken Catapults to restore all those guys. I'm missing a few things, like Asurmen, Karandras and Eldrad which I'll find on ebay at some point. Not pictured are some Striking Scorpions (5th ed? metals), and a couple plastics like a Wave Serpent, Jetbikes (2nd ed versions) and a Vyper.
I'll try to gather some closeups of the few finished models and put them up on dakka later.
Insectum7 wrote: I have to ask if you have a Blood Angels player in the group I found 3rd to be mostly pretty great except for their particular involvement. That Rhino rush attack was very irritating.
A full LOD army sorted out the Blood Angels on one occasion. Simply going first sorted them out on other occasions. Them being stupid enough to sweeping advance and get shot by the entire army also sorted them out. That codex was OP gak but it was mitigatable if you knew what to target.
Oh I agree that it was counterable, and our local player at the time quit once I found the counters, but it was sooo annoying that it was even a thing. Like, every codex had mistakes or flaws (such as an undercosted Starcannon), but that's a simple thing. The 32" assault potential was like . . . mind boggling how that was allowed to print. Too many stacked special rules.
Undercosted Starcannon? Please. As someone who played Eldar through 2nd, 3rd, and 3.5, give me a break. You must have a Marine army. 3 shots, 2 hits, 1.666 wounds, no Save unless Inv. So, you kill 1.666 things per round. Doesn't matter if it's IG, SoB, other Eldar, 'Gaunts, or...Marines. *gasp.* *insert eyeroll here* You know, unless they had a cover save, in which case that Starcannon probably killed 1 model per round.
FFS. Meanwhile I'm facing Lascannon Razorback Spam with 5-man squads each carrying the heavy weapon of their choice and a plasma gun. Literally the only people who snotted and bawled about Starcannons were the 67% of you who played Marines/Chaos Marines and didn't like actually taking casualties. Never mind that the 2x5 Dark Reapers I put in cover in the backfield with Farseers giving them Fortune were making you pick up entire squads.
Nope. The Starcannon was broken.
Those entire editions were broken, just like every "modern" one. There's ALWAYS something meta-defining. Parasitic Weapons. Virus Grenades. Brettonian Lances. Razorback Spam. Pick your poison.
But the Starcannon? A strawman argument.
What defined every game in those editions was who went first.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2025/04/18 05:24:04
Insectum7 wrote: I have to ask if you have a Blood Angels player in the group I found 3rd to be mostly pretty great except for their particular involvement. That Rhino rush attack was very irritating.
A full LOD army sorted out the Blood Angels on one occasion. Simply going first sorted them out on other occasions. Them being stupid enough to sweeping advance and get shot by the entire army also sorted them out. That codex was OP gak but it was mitigatable if you knew what to target.
Oh I agree that it was counterable, and our local player at the time quit once I found the counters, but it was sooo annoying that it was even a thing. Like, every codex had mistakes or flaws (such as an undercosted Starcannon), but that's a simple thing. The 32" assault potential was like . . . mind boggling how that was allowed to print. Too many stacked special rules.
Undercosted Starcannon? Please. As someone who played Eldar through 2nd, 3rd, and 3.5, give me a break. You must have a Marine army. 3 shots, 2 hits, 1.666 wounds, no Save unless Inv. So, you kill 1.666 things per round. Doesn't matter if it's IG, SoB, other Eldar, 'Gaunts, or...Marines. *gasp.* *insert eyeroll here* You know, unless they had a cover save, in which case that Starcannon probably killed 1 model per round.
FFS. Meanwhile I'm facing Lascannon Razorback Spam with 5-man squads each carrying the heavy weapon of their choice and a plasma gun. Literally the only people who snotted and bawled about Starcannons were the 67% of you who played Marines/Chaos Marines and didn't like actually taking casualties. Never mind that the 2x5 Dark Reapers I put in cover in the backfield with Farseers giving them Fortune were making you pick up entire squads.
Nope. The Starcannon was broken.
Those entire editions were broken, just like every "modern" one. There's ALWAYS something meta-defining. Parasitic Weapons. Virus Grenades. Brettonian Lances. Razorback Spam. Pick your poison.
But the Starcannon? A strawman argument.
What defined every game in those editions was who went first.
Hehe
I thought the Starcannon was a fine weapon, and I was sad that it got knocked to two shots in the 4th edition book. The issue with it was that it was too cheap on things like Vypers, where it was only a 10 or 15 point upgrade, iirc. Or that Guardians and War Walkerss were so cheap that a Starcannon unit was sub 100. You could get a lot of them in your army and it performed both the anti infantry role and the anti-elite (and anti-tank when flanking) role well, making it a no brainer when compared to most other options, especially with its range.
Las-Plas Razorback is it's own thing, and like I said, every codex had it's flaws.
Reapers. . . I honestly never worried about them because, unlike the Starcannon on it's platforms, they couldn't move and fire. They were a T3, AV4+ unit priced at almost 40 points a model. There were few targets that were juicier!
The idea that whoever went first won is pretty flawed, imo. In my experience that meant that your table didn't have enough terrain on it. I saw a lot of pretty lousy tables back in the day, and made a conscious effort to have a good collection of terrain so that there was enough on the table to mitigate the first-turn-win potential. Terrain also relates to the Starcannon vs Reaper comparison too. Mobile heavy firepower is more valuable on a table that has more LOS blocking terrain. Reapers on a table with lots of LOS blocking terrain are just Whirlwind bait.
Every time I hear the "every game was won/lost by who got the first turn", I cannot help wondering how much, or rather, how little terrain those games had.
In some of our games, there is so much terrain that even if you get to alpha strike, you only have 1-3 viable targets to shoot at during the first turn. And if its a high priority target, you can bet dollars to doghnuts it wont be one of the exposed ones..
"The larger point though, is that as players, we have more control over what the game looks and feels like than most of us are willing to use in order to solve our own problems"
BanjoJohn wrote: So I've been re-reading 3rd edition recently for a personal project. I've been wondering what other people think, did you like the original rule where half the occupants of a transport could shoot from the vehicle? Or the update where there were limited firing points that units could shoot from? I remember things like the "6 man tactical squad in a razorback" spam that a few people did where you'd have the razorback shooting a lascannon and plasma gun, and the 6 man tac squad with lascannon and plasma gun shooting out from the razorback too. So some kind of fix is understandable, but I wonder if this made friendly games less fun or different somehow.
Oh man, I was not a fan of 2nd edition "herohammer" and was excited for 3rd. I built my first marine force and painted them up like the box art as Templar and would run las/plas squads in Las/Plas razorbacks. 3.5 nixed that, but then 4th came out and my eldar tanks were suddenly better than land raiders! Ah man, armored mechdar in 4th and even 5th was great.
2025/04/18 08:03:55
Subject: Re:The 40K- all things old editions topic.
Insectum, i have a buddy who would give you a big hug, he loves all the old metals. he is currently building an all metal necron army. he also loves playing 3rd-5th any chance he gets.
Much of the first turn mythos was indeed due to lack of adequate LOS blocking as well as good cover save terrain. event tables were notorious for being open fields because of the number of tables they needed terrain for. in a casual game you can put up both effective terrain that also looks like it belongs on the table. many of the terrain mats i have bought over the years were for specific terrain i envisioned well ahead of time, and have found new life with different terrain sets.
Take for example a mars mat i bought for admech-
Spoiler:
re-imagined as a space marine outpost when i got new terrain.
Spoiler:
My current roster of mats usable in 40K(not counting space/water or for specific games like MCP, warmachine or monpoc) include-
.imperial city*
.hive city*
.tech city* (mostly for infinity)
.desert generic*
.mars*
.jungle outpost* (an original 6X4 mat made for infinity)
.tundra outpost (another infinity mat designed for ariadna usable for that as well as battle tech)
.tau city*
.farm land*
.mystic ruins* (for eldar)
.river delta
All the ones with the * next to them have matching terrain i got just for them with the intent of preventing tables with said lack of terrain but also with tables that are inviting and make sense.
GAMES-DUST1947/infinity/B5 wars/epic 40K/5th ed 40K/victory at sea/warmachine/battle tactics/monpoc/battletech/battlefleet gothic/castles in the sky,/heavy gear/MCP
i remember starcannons getting 2 wounds a turn usually, mainly from assistance from warlocks/farseers, rerolling rolls to hit, getting good cover saves sitting in some woods, but it wasn't something I think I'd complain about, its just playing well with the rules in mind.
Mordekiem wrote: ... but then 4th came out and my eldar tanks were suddenly better than land raiders! Ah man, armored mechdar in 4th and even 5th was great.
Locally our last 4e game was a big apoc match with no superheavies. Early on a good 5000+ points of marines and guard opened up on an Eldar skimmer formation with lascannons, missiles, battlecannons, etc, and killed exactly nothing.
Without the invulnerability in 5e they were arguably undercosted, Eldars one 'weak-ish' edition.
As for losing on the first turn... never a good idea to not be meched up against craftworld ranger spam, though technically that is losing before the first turn :p
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2025/04/18 10:46:14
I started playing around the end of 2nd, if I recall correctly about 2 years before 3rd came out. I went with Blood Angels because they were in the starter and the Vengeance of the Blood Angels game I had played on Playstation that was my intro to the universe, and although I loved the Ork background the starter box miniatures were not as cool as the Blood Angels ones.
At the time I didn't even know Blood Angels had their own Codex - it wasn't clear to me when I saw "Codex Angels of Death" in the local toy shop that it was meant for me, so I just played them as normal space marines because as far as I knew that's what they were! I had Captain Tycho but I just built him using the existing wargear rules, I just thought his background sounded cool.
So in 3e when the Blood Angels codex came out and was so cheap I was really excited. And then I was just so confused by it! I hadn't ever heard of the Death Company, and now suddenly in any game ANY of my dudes could turn into them?! What? I need to buy a whole load of new metal models to represent this and then paint them up in a different, much trickier scheme?
I liked the background but the rules just left me scratching my head and feeling I was "doing it wrong" and as a kid with limited access to miniatures (whatever the toy shop in the nearest small town had, and whatever my limited pocket money could stretch to) it was rough to suddenly have to buy a bunch of new guys to play "properly".
The supercharged engines stuff just passed me by, because my only vehicle was a Predator, and I didn't have any Rhinos. It also didn't strike me from reading the book that Blood Angels were "supposed" to be much of a mechanised force - it wasn't mentioned in any of the background so I just ignored it. So my fun and flexible tactical squad based Space Marines became these sort of weird maybe-berserkers with really fast vehicles, and I just felt like it was kind of a rug pull. The codex fell really flat for me.
The end result was I just sort of moved on from them to Orks, especially once the codex came out and all those fantastic new Brian Nelson sculpts. I loved the 3e orks anyway - finally I felt they played on the table the way they were described in the background and I was a die hard Ork player for years.
On that note, those bloody skimmers were the bane of my life as an Ork player. In the 3e codex, if you didn't have Zzap Guns or just craploads of Rokkits, the only reliable anti-tank was a power claw wielded by a Nob into the rear armour of enemy tanks. Skimmers made that job even harder, zipping around the board, hovering on top of ruins, and needing 6s to hit in close combat. I would have had to restructure my force around tank hunting to deal with them. In the end with the release of the 4e codex I had a LOT of fun blowing skimmers out of the sky with Lootas, and I enjoyed the irritation of my tormentors when I rolled 45 shots on a squad of 15 and just tore a falcon apart in a hail of solid slugs!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2025/04/18 12:51:50
The worst was the Hammerhead with that upgrade that damages every model that attacks it in melee.
Anuvver fing - when they do sumfing, they try to make it look like somfink else to confuse everybody. When one of them wants to lord it over the uvvers, 'e says "I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me", or "I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good". Da funny fing is, arf of 'em believe it and da over arf don't, so 'e 'as to hit 'em all anyway or run fer it.
Orkeosaurus wrote: The worst was the Hammerhead with that upgrade that damages every model that attacks it in melee.
The possibility to cause a wound on an infantry model on a 4+ you mean? of which you get an armor save against. not really broken considering a tau army (not a kroot army) has almost zero CC ability, they really do need it.
GAMES-DUST1947/infinity/B5 wars/epic 40K/5th ed 40K/victory at sea/warmachine/battle tactics/monpoc/battletech/battlefleet gothic/castles in the sky,/heavy gear/MCP
Orkeosaurus wrote: The worst was the Hammerhead with that upgrade that damages every model that attacks it in melee.
The possibility to cause a wound on an infantry model on a 4+ you mean? of which you get an armor save against. not really broken considering a tau army (not a kroot army) has almost zero CC ability, they really do need it.
Yeah, I never bothered with it. If your hammerheads were getting caught in CC, you were doing something wrong as you could keep them highly mobile without sacrificing their firepower, plus for best effect they should be supporting infantry who can provide a screen.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2025/04/18 17:33:14
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
I had forgotten completely, or never knew, but pistols could shoot twice if your model stood still in 3rd edition, hmmm, I guess I didn't read carefully enough back then. Not that it makes a huge difference but it is interesting.
BanjoJohn wrote: I had forgotten completely, or never knew, but pistols could shoot twice if your model stood still in 3rd edition, hmmm, I guess I didn't read carefully enough back then. Not that it makes a huge difference but it is interesting.
That was before they started equipping everyone with a free sidearm (and grenades) IIRC. Generally the only people with pistols wanted to be in CC. There may have been a handful of edge cases (SoB jump pack gunslingers maybe?) but it was almost never used.
BanjoJohn wrote: I had forgotten completely, or never knew, but pistols could shoot twice if your model stood still in 3rd edition, hmmm, I guess I didn't read carefully enough back then. Not that it makes a huge difference but it is interesting.
That was before they started equipping everyone with a free sidearm (and grenades) IIRC. Generally the only people with pistols wanted to be in CC. There may have been a handful of edge cases (SoB jump pack gunslingers maybe?) but it was almost never used.
The only model I can think of that would want to do that would be Cypher.
Orkeosaurus wrote: The worst was the Hammerhead with that upgrade that damages every model that attacks it in melee.
The possibility to cause a wound on an infantry model on a 4+ you mean? of which you get an armor save against. not really broken considering a tau army (not a kroot army) has almost zero CC ability, they really do need it.
Not broken, but pity the poor Ork Boy who got a 6+ save! Not much use, but I suppose it's one of the few times they actually got to take it!
Tau were frustrating to play against as Orks, you'd run toward them as they blasted you with ordinance railgun shots, they got an extra 6" worth of shooting you with their basic weapons, and their elite units could shoot you and then scoot away. Sure, when the Nob, usually the last guy left in his unit and shot full of holes, finally connected with a squad of Fire Warriors he'd evaporate it, but it wasn't a fun experience playing against that army.
I love Tau btw, I think they were a great addition to 40K. Great models, great background. And I think vs. the 4e Ork book they were a pretty fair fight, but that 3e book was outmatched unless you tailored, in my opinion.
Insectum7 wrote: I have to ask if you have a Blood Angels player in the group I found 3rd to be mostly pretty great except for their particular involvement. That Rhino rush attack was very irritating.
A full LOD army sorted out the Blood Angels on one occasion. Simply going first sorted them out on other occasions. Them being stupid enough to sweeping advance and get shot by the entire army also sorted them out. That codex was OP gak but it was mitigatable if you knew what to target.
Oh I agree that it was counterable, and our local player at the time quit once I found the counters, but it was sooo annoying that it was even a thing. Like, every codex had mistakes or flaws (such as an undercosted Starcannon), but that's a simple thing. The 32" assault potential was like . . . mind boggling how that was allowed to print. Too many stacked special rules.
Undercosted Starcannon? Please. As someone who played Eldar through 2nd, 3rd, and 3.5, give me a break. You must have a Marine army. 3 shots, 2 hits, 1.666 wounds, no Save unless Inv. So, you kill 1.666 things per round. Doesn't matter if it's IG, SoB, other Eldar, 'Gaunts, or...Marines. *gasp.* *insert eyeroll here* You know, unless they had a cover save, in which case that Starcannon probably killed 1 model per round.
FFS. Meanwhile I'm facing Lascannon Razorback Spam with 5-man squads each carrying the heavy weapon of their choice and a plasma gun. Literally the only people who snotted and bawled about Starcannons were the 67% of you who played Marines/Chaos Marines and didn't like actually taking casualties. Never mind that the 2x5 Dark Reapers I put in cover in the backfield with Farseers giving them Fortune were making you pick up entire squads.
Nope. The Starcannon was broken.
Those entire editions were broken, just like every "modern" one. There's ALWAYS something meta-defining. Parasitic Weapons. Virus Grenades. Brettonian Lances. Razorback Spam. Pick your poison.
But the Starcannon? A strawman argument.
What defined every game in those editions was who went first.
Hehe
I thought the Starcannon was a fine weapon, and I was sad that it got knocked to two shots in the 4th edition book. The issue with it was that it was too cheap on things like Vypers, where it was only a 10 or 15 point upgrade, iirc. Or that Guardians and War Walkerss were so cheap that a Starcannon unit was sub 100. You could get a lot of them in your army and it performed both the anti infantry role and the anti-elite (and anti-tank when flanking) role well, making it a no brainer when compared to most other options, especially with its range.
Las-Plas Razorback is it's own thing, and like I said, every codex had it's flaws.
Reapers. . . I honestly never worried about them because, unlike the Starcannon on it's platforms, they couldn't move and fire. They were a T3, AV4+ unit priced at almost 40 points a model. There were few targets that were juicier!
The idea that whoever went first won is pretty flawed, imo. In my experience that meant that your table didn't have enough terrain on it. I saw a lot of pretty lousy tables back in the day, and made a conscious effort to have a good collection of terrain so that there was enough on the table to mitigate the first-turn-win potential. Terrain also relates to the Starcannon vs Reaper comparison too. Mobile heavy firepower is more valuable on a table that has more LOS blocking terrain. Reapers on a table with lots of LOS blocking terrain are just Whirlwind bait.
Yeah, there was NEVER enough terrain at any LGSRT event or even GT's. And since the LGS was the central place for everyone to meet for leagues and such, it was the same problem. Never enough terrain to do anything.
I didn't have any Vypers, Guardians, or War Walkers. I have a Biel-Tan army, so it was expensive elites and vehicles. The pair of Falcons and the pair of Wave Serpents had Starcannons, but that was it, and I often took Bright Lances instead to deal with the vehicle spam. The Eldar vehicles with Spirit Stones and Holo-Fields were literally indestructable for the most part...IF got the first turn and could move them to take advantage of the skimmer rules. If not, you just picked them up, and rolled to see who died inside them.
I eventually just left them on the shelf and played all-on-foot Biel-Tan. 40 Banshees, 10 Reapers, 2 Wraithlords (1 BL, 1 SC), and 2 Farseers with Fortune. I think I had enough left for some Hawks with a Web of Skulls on the Exarch. For some reason, when 40 Banshees and 2 WL's are charging your lines, those Marines pretty rarely got around to shooting the Reapers, who were making them pick up two 5-man squads every turn and sitting in cover with re-rolled armor/cover saves and a Farseer to assign occasional wounds to. It didn't fare as well against horde-style armies, but since 67%-75% of the people at an event were playing Marines/Chaos Marines every edition, I didn't really care. All the models on foot made them easier to hide with what little terrain there usually was and made losing the first turn less devastating. Suddenly Razorbacks are dumping lascannons into WL's that I didn't really care about all that much, they were just a giant distraction.
BanjoJohn wrote: I had forgotten completely, or never knew, but pistols could shoot twice if your model stood still in 3rd edition, hmmm, I guess I didn't read carefully enough back then. Not that it makes a huge difference but it is interesting.
That was before they started equipping everyone with a free sidearm (and grenades) IIRC. Generally the only people with pistols wanted to be in CC. There may have been a handful of edge cases (SoB jump pack gunslingers maybe?) but it was almost never used.
The only model I can think of that would want to do that would be Cypher.
It was definitely an edge case, but if you had a model within charge range without moving, you could shoot twice with a pistol and then charge, which is something that Rapid Fire weapons prohibited.
BanjoJohn wrote: I had forgotten completely, or never knew, but pistols could shoot twice if your model stood still in 3rd edition, hmmm, I guess I didn't read carefully enough back then. Not that it makes a huge difference but it is interesting.
That was before they started equipping everyone with a free sidearm (and grenades) IIRC. Generally the only people with pistols wanted to be in CC. There may have been a handful of edge cases (SoB jump pack gunslingers maybe?) but it was almost never used.
The only model I can think of that would want to do that would be Cypher.
It was definitely an edge case, but if you had a model within charge range without moving, you could shoot twice with a pistol and then charge, which is something that Rapid Fire weapons prohibited.
Sergeants, and assault squads are the only models I can think who regularly had pistols, but you'd want them to assault instead of shoot, unless maybe getting those extra shots with plasma pistols could be worth it, say a squad of 6 assault marines with 2 plasma pistols, getting 4 plasma shots and 6 bolt pistol shots isn't bad. Or a tac squad that stood still to rapid-fire boltguns would allow the sergeant to shoot twice with pistol too. At least the bolt pistol would have AP5 when shooting, assault marines would allow armor save in combat.
BanjoJohn wrote: I had forgotten completely, or never knew, but pistols could shoot twice if your model stood still in 3rd edition, hmmm, I guess I didn't read carefully enough back then. Not that it makes a huge difference but it is interesting.
That was before they started equipping everyone with a free sidearm (and grenades) IIRC. Generally the only people with pistols wanted to be in CC. There may have been a handful of edge cases (SoB jump pack gunslingers maybe?) but it was almost never used.
The only model I can think of that would want to do that would be Cypher.
It was definitely an edge case, but if you had a model within charge range without moving, you could shoot twice with a pistol and then charge, which is something that Rapid Fire weapons prohibited.
Sergeants, and assault squads are the only models I can think who regularly had pistols, but you'd want them to assault instead of shoot, unless maybe getting those extra shots with plasma pistols could be worth it, say a squad of 6 assault marines with 2 plasma pistols, getting 4 plasma shots and 6 bolt pistol shots isn't bad. Or a tac squad that stood still to rapid-fire boltguns would allow the sergeant to shoot twice with pistol too. At least the bolt pistol would have AP5 when shooting, assault marines would allow armor save in combat.
Rapid Fire and Heavy weapon models which remained stationary to fire could not Assault, but models with pistols could, so these Sergeants, Assault Squads, or equivalent models could fire twice with pistols and then assault.
It'd be a circumstance forseeable in situations where an opponent has Assaulted your models and won the combat, but might not be able to reach any more models after consolidation or advance from combat resolution. There'd be enemy models very close to other troops ready for counterattack.
Or sometimes you didn't really want to charge anyways. I saw a lot of Bloodthirsters in action during 3rd ed, and I wasn't excited to charge 'em! Dumping Plasma Piatol fire into them instead of charging would be a pretty enticing option.
Yeah, there was NEVER enough terrain at any LGSRT event or even GT's. And since the LGS was the central place for everyone to meet for leagues and such, it was the same problem. Never enough terrain to do anything.
I didn't have any Vypers, Guardians, or War Walkers. I have a Biel-Tan army, so it was expensive elites and vehicles. The pair of Falcons and the pair of Wave Serpents had Starcannons, but that was it, and I often took Bright Lances instead to deal with the vehicle spam. The Eldar vehicles with Spirit Stones and Holo-Fields were literally indestructable for the most part...IF got the first turn and could move them to take advantage of the skimmer rules. If not, you just picked them up, and rolled to see who died inside them.
I eventually just left them on the shelf and played all-on-foot Biel-Tan. 40 Banshees, 10 Reapers, 2 Wraithlords (1 BL, 1 SC), and 2 Farseers with Fortune. I think I had enough left for some Hawks with a Web of Skulls on the Exarch. For some reason, when 40 Banshees and 2 WL's are charging your lines, those Marines pretty rarely got around to shooting the Reapers, who were making them pick up two 5-man squads every turn and sitting in cover with re-rolled armor/cover saves and a Farseer to assign occasional wounds to. It didn't fare as well against horde-style armies, but since 67%-75% of the people at an event were playing Marines/Chaos Marines every edition, I didn't really care. All the models on foot made them easier to hide with what little terrain there usually was and made losing the first turn less devastating. Suddenly Razorbacks are dumping lascannons into WL's that I didn't really care about all that much, they were just a giant distraction.
Lack of terrain was a common thing to see. I usually was the guy who made sure our local games had enough stuff to make a good table.
40 Banshees in an army sure would have caught me by surprise! I almost never saw them during 3rd. That could have been an interesting fight.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2025/04/19 03:37:34
BanjoJohn wrote: I had forgotten completely, or never knew, but pistols could shoot twice if your model stood still in 3rd edition, hmmm, I guess I didn't read carefully enough back then. Not that it makes a huge difference but it is interesting.
That was before they started equipping everyone with a free sidearm (and grenades) IIRC. Generally the only people with pistols wanted to be in CC. There may have been a handful of edge cases (SoB jump pack gunslingers maybe?) but it was almost never used.
The only model I can think of that would want to do that would be Cypher.
It was definitely an edge case, but if you had a model within charge range without moving, you could shoot twice with a pistol and then charge, which is something that Rapid Fire weapons prohibited.
Sergeants, and assault squads are the only models I can think who regularly had pistols, but you'd want them to assault instead of shoot, unless maybe getting those extra shots with plasma pistols could be worth it, say a squad of 6 assault marines with 2 plasma pistols, getting 4 plasma shots and 6 bolt pistol shots isn't bad. Or a tac squad that stood still to rapid-fire boltguns would allow the sergeant to shoot twice with pistol too. At least the bolt pistol would have AP5 when shooting, assault marines would allow armor save in combat.
Veteran squads could be ran with pistols, and that was my preferred loadout.
I found 3rd to be mostly pretty great except for their particular involvement. That Rhino rush attack was very irritating.
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