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Yesterday I was paging through some of the tables in my Ork Codex and realized that I could just take photos of all the charts and make a cheat sheet. Some of you younger types would just keep the images on the phone, but I grew up in a world of paper, not pixels.

One of 2nd ed.'s strengths was the level of detail, but it did tend to bog things down. This should help streamline things, particularly for orks, who are very chart-intensive. My wife and I just started the third turn of a 1,500 point urban battle, and the orks have not failed to disappoint, with one of the Storm Boyz detonating his pack upon landing and killing the poor sod next to him. The nearby Space Marines were of course unhurt.

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:
Yesterday I was paging through some of the tables in my Ork Codex and realized that I could just take photos of all the charts and make a cheat sheet. Some of you younger types would just keep the images on the phone, but I grew up in a world of paper, not pixels.

One of 2nd ed.'s strengths was the level of detail, but it did tend to bog things down. This should help streamline things, particularly for orks, who are very chart-intensive. My wife and I just started the third turn of a 1,500 point urban battle, and the orks have not failed to disappoint, with one of the Storm Boyz detonating his pack upon landing and killing the poor sod next to him. The nearby Space Marines were of course unhurt.

I still have my 3rd Ed. cheat sheets from the boxed sets, and have a wayback link to when they had the Codex Summaries to download and print off of GW's website. We were SPOILED during 3rd Ed. 40K and 6th Ed. WFB...

For all that 2nd Ed was evocative and a right laugh? Was definitely a bit much at times.

I’ve no specific memories of fighting Orks one on one, so no tales of Stormboyz etc going crazy.

What I do recall being time consuming were all the persistent effect grenades. Rad, Vortex, Plasma, Blind, Smoke. Each left a Marker or Markers on the board. Each had their own end of turn table. They might drift, be removed, shrink and/or expand,

On one hand? Those rules did encourage caution before using. Your clouds of Smoke might obscure you from the enemy this turn, but could bite on the bum in the next.

But if you threw caution to the wind, you wound up with a time consuming process.

Likewise poor sods hit by flame weapons that survived, but continued to burn.

If you go back and look at army sizes, the rules just about coped when it was maybe two or three squads, a tank, a dread and some characters. Certainly there’s no way 2nd Ed would work with the size of modern armies.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
If you go back and look at army sizes, the rules just about coped when it was maybe two or three squads, a tank, a dread and some characters. Certainly there’s no way 2nd Ed would work with the size of modern armies.

The simple expedient of restricting or eliminating persistent weapons saves a lot of work. I have a set of rules changes that fit on a single sheet of paper (front and back) that hugely speed things up. No models on fire, no rolling for plasma balls or vortex grenades to expend/contract. The thing goes off, has its effect and that's that.

Blind grenades do not drift and remain in effect until the start of the user's next turn, whereupon they dissipate.

We also don't bother with jump packs scattering, which is fiddly in the extreme. Since orks have mishaps, just roll a die for each guy and on a 1 he has a problem. Much, much faster.

That still leaves the meat of the game, and also fun things like turrets blowing off a tank and landing on some really unlucky guy. Or multi-vehicle pileups due to careening out of control.

Orks are the worst offenders, which is why one cannot take them too seriously.

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:
No models on fire, no rolling for plasma balls or vortex grenades to expend/contract. The thing goes off, has its effect and that's that.

Blind grenades do not drift and remain in effect until the start of the user's next turn, whereupon they dissipate.

Well there goes half of my favorite tricks. The number of times I used expanding plasma missiles to knock units off Overwatch, or blind grenade movement to facilitate my own . . . not to mention the absolute riot of setting Eldar Exarchs on fire.

I loved all that stuff.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Well there goes half of my favorite tricks. The number of times I used expanding plasma missiles to knock units off Overwatch, or blind grenade movement to facilitate my own . . . not to mention the absolute riot of setting Eldar Exarchs on fire.

I loved all that stuff.

Don't get me wrong - making your own terrain during the battle can be fun, but it does have a cost in terms of game play.

It's pretty much axiomatic that if you wish to increase the scope of the simulation, you lose fidelity. Yes, there is the legendary Campaign for North Africa that tracks individual trucks and aircraft, but people who have actually finished a game are vanishingly few in number. (I met someone who claimed to have done it, but he was a bit off and came to a bad end. Make of that what you will.)

Boosting the model count does allow for a greater variety of tactics and battles can unfold in stages rather than being resolved in the first impact. It also gives players the ability to improvise if their initial plan collapses. The rapid speed of 2nd ed. vehicles really shines through in this respect, allowing a player to set up on one flank, and then drive at fast speed through the backfield to hit the other end, completely taking static elements out of the battle.

Much more interesting than the infamous Rhino rush.

I never find it laborious to move persistent templates in 2nd (though I always thought it would be cool to make one ‘wind’ roll each turn and scatter them all the same), even in big, 5,000-ish point games, but the constant diameter changes are a pain in the bum for the sheer number of markers you need. A plasma cloud shrinking 1/2” in diameter each turn is a real grind!

Getting close to being done with version 1.0 of the battle bible, just a few more issues of WD to add, a few more things from chapter approved 2003 & 2004 to add in, and that will be all the "main" content for 3rd edition. With some editing/cleaning up and hyperlinks to add in to polish it off for version 1.0.

Then I'll start doing citadel journal content and imperial armor to upgrade it up to version 2.0

I was just having a look at one of your earlier versions a few days ago. Great work, thanks very much! 3e is a really rich edition when you have all of it, but it's really spread out over a lot of sources so a big collection like this is great. It's a very complete edition when you gather it all in, and with the VDR rules and Monstrous Creature rules you can build stuff that's not included easily enough.

Well things don't always go according to plan, was supposed to have a big 3,500 point apocalypse game against one of our chaos players but he couldn't make it in at the last minute.

i brought all my admech(7th ed codex)-



One of our black templar players (4th ed) jumped in and cleaned my clock pretty good.

Still had a fun time and it was nice to see all the boys out on the table-








Got a second game in with a much more normal 2K game against crimson fists using the 4th ed space marine codex.

This one was a bit closer, we did 5 objectives and i managed to pull out a win on objective scoring. It helped i was running a mostly cataphron infantry horde, so once i disabled or destroyed his vindicators it was a lot harder to kill my force.

 aphyon wrote:
Well things don't always go according to plan, was supposed to have a big 3,500 point apocalypse game against one of our chaos players but he couldn't make it in at the last minute.

i brought all my admech(7th ed codex)-

Spoiler:

One of our black templar players (4th ed) jumped in and cleaned my clock pretty good.

Still had a fun time and it was nice to see all the boys out on the table-

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Got a second game in with a much more normal 2K game against crimson fists using the 4th ed space marine codex.

This one was a bit closer, we did 5 objectives and i managed to pull out a win on objective scoring. It helped i was running a mostly cataphron infantry horde, so once i disabled or destroyed his vindicators it was a lot harder to kill my force.

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

That's a nice Admech army man! looks good!

I'm intrigued about you playing the older codexes with a 7th ed codex. Did it feel imbalanced? was it a pretty good match up? and what rules edition did ya use?

NVM, It was 5th edition from the other threads I saw you in. I gotta try that now

Not at all, we routinely have older codexes do just fine against newer codexes. many of the newer codexes get basic units cheaper on points costs but they loose so many options/thematic rules it tends to balance things out.

 aphyon wrote:
Not at all, we routinely have older codexes do just fine against newer codexes. many of the newer codexes get basic units cheaper on points costs but they loose so many options/thematic rules it tends to balance things out.

gonna have to try that out then, especially with 5th ed. may be easier than writing a Fan FAQ like i'm teetering on the edge for!

 aphyon wrote:
Not at all, we routinely have older codexes do just fine against newer codexes. many of the newer codexes get basic units cheaper on points costs but they loose so many options/thematic rules it tends to balance things out.

Heavily depends on the book, both old and new IMO.

Something like an un-errated 3.5 obliterator or siren is strong in any edition, whereas no amount of thematic options makes a 3e power armoured grey knight good. Similarly some late edition books such as the mechanicus are on entirely different levels with/without formations whereas others like eldar are just outright stronger in almost every way than their predecessors.

I do recall the 4e errated Black Templars with the 6e USRs being a particularly effective if short lived gunline army. 141pts for preferred enemy las/plas and a twin-linked multimelta razorback as a troops choice, discount landspeeders, two tank hunting heavy weapons per terminator squad and a fun(if expensive) footslogging terminator build. Came at the cost of massively overpriced bike, assault, and veteran units but sometimes just doing the basics well and in quantity is a quality all of its own... especially when trying to feed sacrifices into some horrific late edition invisible flying deathstar with rerolling 2++ saves and all the other bells and whistles.

I feel it also heavily depends on how you interpret stuff like Grav weapons, Destroyer weapons, Flyers and superheavies that 6th/7th codexes tend to have baked in.

whereas no amount of thematic options makes a 3e power armoured grey knight good.

Completely disagree, as a person who uses the 3rd ed demon hunters codex GKs are what they are supposed to be. the ordo militant of the ordo hereticus they are not a stand alone army in the sense it is all grey knights like the abomination the 5th ed codex became. they do one job really well-fighting chaos and demons especially with that codex. and since all of our chaos players use the 3.5 codex it is a good fit. the special allies rules also make them a great add on to any imperial army. or an army to join them. myself personally i use inquisitorial storm troopers for my troops so i can bring more GK terminators.

Similarly some late edition books such as the mechanicus are on entirely different levels with/without formations whereas others like eldar are just outright stronger in almost every way than their predecessors.

My experience is that neither of those statements are true-i have lost more games with my admech than i have won, last weeks game was against a 4th ed black templar codex and i got beaten quite thoroughly. As for eldar-they have never been weak, there is a reason why there are so many jokes making fun of eldar players or eldar armies. especially circa 3rd-5th ed. we primarily use the 4th ed codex with the FW imperial armor book 11 doom of mymeara. aside from basic guardian squads that almost nobody uses (why would you when you can play a craftworld specific list) everything is good.

I do recall the 4e errated Black Templars with the 6e USRs being a particularly effective if short lived gunline army.

Our templar player would laugh you off the table. all i got to do is shoot any squad with a heavy weapon, make a casualty and they are either running towards me or running away (rarely), so snap firing those heavy weapons on the move as they want to rush into close combat...... super no. now terminator squads with tank hunter and chainfists that's another thing entirely.

especially when trying to feed sacrifices into some horrific late edition invisible flying deathstar with rerolling 2++ saves

Our group specifically banned that combo for obvious reasons.

I feel it also heavily depends on how you interpret stuff like Grav weapons, Destroyer weapons, Flyers and superheavies that 6th/7th codexes tend to have baked in.

I addressed this all on page 1-

There is no such thing as destroyer weapons all the old IA books have the original stats for titan type weapons that later became D weapons when they were made for normal games-IE turbo lasers that became a 5" template D weapon were at one time a small blast S9 AP2 template. otherwise unless we can find the original rules all D weapons become default S10 AP1 with no template larger than the 5" to conform to 5th ed core rules.

Grav weapons we toned down to work within the 5th ed rules-the first hit is always an immobilized result as normal against vehicles, any successive 6+ do weapon destroyed results.

Flyers and superheavies have the old IA damage chart and rules that were made for normal games of 40K. they make great centerpiece models and are not overpowered by any measure. flyers in particular use a mix of the original FW rules with the movement rules introduced in 6th/7th-meaning they move on from reserve in the players turn instead of interrupting the enemy movement phase as per the original FW rules, must move a minimum of 12" and get a free 45' turn at the start of their movement (unless agile applies...silly eldar). you need a 6+ to hit them with non AA ground weapons with a 12" range penalty (so no pistols and such and they cannot be targeted by templates), other flyers engage them at normal BS. they can be assaulted by jump infantry and there is no such ting as vector lock-you get immobilized you crash, but chaff/flare upgrades are universal so you get a 1 use per game re-roll on that result for like 5 points on that upgrade.

Flyers are both powerful-being stable platforms they can always fire all their weapons normally unless stunned/shaken/jinked(then it is snap fire), but they are also fragile-being killed by regular destroyed and immobilized results.

For my own personal gratification; think the HH red army books would be worthwhile to use for your system?

Yes all the 1.0 HH books are compatible as they are just 7th ed rules ( own copies of all of them- RIP Alan Bligh)

We use them for the times when players want to use all the units for the custodians not found in the small 7th ed codex as well as relic vehicles like predators and such. relic vehicles are fun as a 0-1 special unit for your army in 40K, for my dark angels i take the relic predator with the plasma destroyer from time to time because it fits the theme of what the DAs are known for. it is a normal predator in most any other way aside from the weapon loadout and a couple upgrades like a machine spirit.

Sweet, I would sacrifice the cult mechanicus book just to play taghmata and skitarii in a game lol

ooh i do love the taghmata


But i also love my cataphrons.....and my skittarii

I'm already being tempted to write my own Fires of Cyrax, dont tempt me more

 aphyon wrote:

whereas no amount of thematic options makes a 3e power armoured grey knight good.

Completely disagree / myself personally i use inquisitorial storm troopers for my troops so i can bring more GK terminators.

3e GK terminators are solid. 3e GK in power armour are 25 points a model for a storm-bolter armed tactical marine with no grenades(or options to buy grenades), no transport, and no weapons better than AP4.

Stormtroopers were decent but when playing in a troop-only scoring environment if you were not running post-update vehicles you were either footslogging them (no chance), paying 85pts for a chimera (ugh), or reaching for a newer codex via the 'authority of the emperor rule'.
Trying to score troop-only objectives with PAGK just didn't work.

 aphyon wrote:

Similarly some late edition books such as the mechanicus are on entirely different levels with/without formations whereas others like eldar are just outright stronger in almost every way than their predecessors.

My experience is that neither of those statements are true-i have lost more games with my admech than i have won

I should probably have written that more clearly. Mechanicus were on different levels in the sense that they were on two entirely different power tiers depending on whether or not they were using the war convocation. Without it I can certainly see it on an even enough level with older books as they paid through the nose for wargear.
(with it you could pull crap like taking plasma cannon servitors at 20 points per unit, 145pts of free wargear on a 55pt squad of vanguard, knights with canticles, etc)

 aphyon wrote:
As for eldar-they have never been weak, there is a reason why there are so many jokes making fun of eldar players or eldar armies. especially circa 3rd-5th ed. we primarily use the 4th ed codex with the FW imperial armor book 11 doom of mymeara.

Eldar under 3e and 4e rules were strong. And 6e and 7e.

Most people didn't use forgeworld back then and Mymeara was right at the end of the edition. Vehicles like the hornet and warp hunter were significant upgrades that 5e eldar players generally didn't have, and if you let aspects use corsair venoms that's a whole different ballgame - either way the corsairs bring the kind of fast expendible anti-tank and cost efficient area of effect/indirect murdering that regular 4e codex eldar lacked.

Not that core-only 4e eldar in 5e rules were unplayable, but it was their weakest point in all of oldhammer and noticably so.

 aphyon wrote:

I do recall the 4e errated Black Templars with the 6e USRs being a particularly effective if short lived gunline army.

Our templar player would laugh you off the table. all i got to do is shoot any squad with a heavy weapon, make a casualty and they are either running towards me or running away

Perhaps just a 5e thing. Had to take scoring units, had to figure out how to make them useful. Templars didn't have the scoring terminators, bikes, assault troops, etc of other factions. similarly outside of their terminators they were paying a lot for bikes and assault troops and the crusaders themselves were outshone by other factions and didn't even have grenades by default.

But there were a few units they could field cheaper and/or with more guns than the marine books of the era. As fun as it was to have full cenobyte terminators running half way across a table in a single turn it just didn't work at times.

The Eldar argument is always overly simplified.

A tiny portion of their army list was strong in every edition, and what portion that was changed from edition to edition.

If space Wolves were broken no said all marines were, despite them being virtually the same army.

The fact that an eldar army could dominate using 3 or 4 spammed units didn't make the whole army broken, in fact in almost all cases most of their other units were underpowered instead.

In fact the subjective tarring of the whole army because of a few units is absolutely arbitrary - you could just as easily say that the Eldar are bottom tier because an army composed of their 3 or 4 worst units just couldn't win and it holds just as much weight as saying the whole army was broken because of their 3 or 4 overpowered ones.

You couldn't play a competitive army without using the broken units because the other ones were so bad.

There were times when Eldar were universally above average.
But yeah, there’s been times when Eldar had some massively powerful outliers in an otherwise mid Codex.

However, you don’t usually measure Codecs by their worst units. You’re usually measuring by their best.

And it's misleading and causes people to literally ostracize people for using a codex whether they use the broken unit or not.

It's classic average vs median fallacy reasoning..it's the equivalent of saying all humans are billionaires because some are.

It makes it impossible to discuss balancing units when people try to say whole codexes need balance. It was impossible to discuss that most Eldar units needed a buff while the broken ones needed a nerf, because any claim that an Eldar unit needed a buff was drowned out in arguments that the codex was broken and you're just asking for more cheese.

It is not helpful to discuss balance in sweeping terms. And there are forum upon forum posts from 20 years ago that prove this.

Anyone who plays Eldar can pick up the powerful units as easily as they can pick up the weak units, generally speaking.
It’s not the same thing.

Moreover, if you’re using older Codecs, I’m pretty sure you’re doing it with a group who you know well. If you can’t discuss how to appropriately buff the weak and nerf the strong with your friends, that’s a maturity issue. Online discussions aren’t a big deal when you’re not playing with strangers.

Edit: I do agree that being mean to people for playing a faction is wrong.

But it’s not something I’ve seen in actual gaming stores… ever? I might’ve heard some grumbling in 7th about Eldar in general, but I’ve never had someone actually be cruel to someone for the sin of playing Eldar or anything.

Well playing Eldar gave people permission to act superior to you and decide that you must be a power gamer. Dakka is full of posts by people doing exactly for its entire existence that and the comment aphyon made about making fun of Eldar is emblematic of this.

3 broken units and an entire player base is picked on by others and there's nothing you can do about it, even playing the under powered units because that was just the opponens skill at playing the broken army.

It wasn't just in physical games, the online space treated Eldar players like gak and everyone considered it entirely justified.

comment aphyon made about making fun of Eldar

3 overpowered units? It's more like there were 3 UNDERPOWERED units during that period. And conveniently list building conventions thanks to Codex Craftworld Eldar and immediately followed by the 5th Ed. Troops slots being restructured so that you could essentially build the Craftworlds lists without a second codex sorted out needing the bad stuff OR gave extra rules to make the bad stuff less bad.


But yeah, emotional damage from army choice, or something...

Internal consistency has always been an Eldar issue. But often their “bad” units are still perfectly playable. You just don’t see them at tournaments or breaking the meta. Because at that level, you go all out and take the busted stuff 100% of the time.

I’ve always been a fan of the Falcon. Lovely tank. And it’s been hot garbage compared to the Wave Serpent for pretty much all time. But compared to something like a SM Pred? Roughly equal. Certainly playable.

But some editions I felt I needed to lean on the breaks to have a fair game. Jetbikes have been a core part of my force’s identity. During the hight of scatbikes, I just kept them to 1-in-3 heavy weapons, and used the shurican cannons. It was a time when then broken hotness happened to align with my collection.