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Vilehydra wrote:

Spoiler:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Vilehydra wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Why would anyone care about explosions LOL

Vengeance of the machine spirit
Noble Sacrifice
Ctan
Seraptek Heavy Construct
HellHounds
The Admech forced Explosion Strat
The GSC forced Explosion Strat
+ all the other various vehicles that have a higher then normal chance of exploding
+ all the other strategems that I'm probably forgetting here
+ The chance that the opponent rolling the hard six would change the course of the game.

These are all scenarios that I would care about explosions when making my decisions. These are also all scenarios that I have had experience with and either avoided or fell into by merit of my own decisions.
Saying that I can maximize that effectiveness whilst also completely ignoring any non 2d6 explosions is a pretty big deal for that weapon type.

Honestly that's just straight paranoia based on anecdotes.

How is stating tools that opponents will have consistently have and can be leveraged against you paranoia? I don't know your how competent your local gaming situation is, but I if I put small units within 6 of a dying repulsor, my opponent would pop Vengeance of the machine spirit. I have leveraged noble sacrifice to do heavy damage and exert board control. Skilled opponents have positioned Hellhounds or Ctan to threaten board position just by merit of existing.

These are things that can consistently happen in a wide variety of match ups and can have significant effects. Just because its difficult for you to fathom doesn't make it paranoia.

Hint: As a general rule, if your experience differs from Slayer's, it's anecdotal, and can be ignored; if it agrees with his, it is a point of data and therefore valid.

They ought to be at least 45 points a model, even based on 8th edition points values. 25 for the gun, 20 for the base profile. Even that is very generously priced compared to other 8th edition options. A multi-melta devastator - T4 1W instead of T5 3W, Heavy instead of Assault, and with no double-tap - is 35 points.

 catbarf wrote:
Here's a comparable platform: Kataphron Destroyers. They're T5, W3, but only a 4+ save, and more importantly only BS4+. They do ignore Heavy penalties when moving, so that gives them comparable mobility.

Their Plasma Culverin is D6 shots (so 3.5 average) at a Plasma Cannon profile. So overcharged, they get 3.5 shots at D2 each, while the melta rifles are 2 shots at D3.5 (average) each, for comparable firepower, although the Culverin has the edge against W2 infantry. The Culverin has 36" range, but also explodes on a 1 (which, even with re-rolls, can happen when 3 of them are firing ~11 shots).

Kataphrons with Plasma Culverins are 42pts apiece. If 33-35pts is right for Eradicators, then that implies the Kataphrons (less accurate, less durable) ought to be more like 25-30pts- that's a huge drop for a unit that isn't anywhere near Fire Dragon levels of terrible, and I would argue is an unreasonably low price for a tough platform toting essentially twin plasma cannons.

Even with the presumption that Kataphrons are a bit overpriced, I see Eradicators being fair at no less than 45pts per model. With typical Marine buffs they're going to throw out a stupid amount of firepower, even at that price easily making back their points in one turn by slagging a Leman Russ from full health.

Shaky ground. KD's with Elimination Volley and Canticle come pretty damn close to those guys (I haven't read the new PA yet). Dropping their points would make them massively better when popping that strat. Yes, I understand the conundrum this creates, but Eradicators are less likely to have a stratagem to pump them up so there's a delicate balance there.

So GW will make them the same cost as multi-melta devastators.
Another primaris unit that outclasses its mini-marines equivalent.
Obvious cash grab.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
There, you see the problem with this unit now. It's a "fix for melta" but only for Marines, and not the other armies in the game.

The fact that you don't see that as a problem just shows how blinkered you are.

Ha ha ha. Speaking of blinkered. Assuming these guys are 35-41 points people guess, unit of three will be around ~120 points. You know what else is ~120 points? Tau commander with 4 fusion blasters. Except he can deep strike natively and is twice as accurate with 2+ BS missing only on 1/6 instead of 1/3 so comparable to 8 shots of these guys. He is also T5 and can be made twice as durable (2+ armor upgrade) for a pittance or can cross the table in an instant plus extra durability upgrade with Coldstar. Oh, and for some more peanuts, "it would be a shame if a whole turn of shooting from that Warlord titan just disappeared" drones. That is without considering warlord traits, relics, stratagems, character protection, Tau commander rules, etc, etc, stuff commander gets. Funny that, I seem to recall crying through whole 8th edition Tau commanders are completely balanced and the 'totally unfair' restriction should go away so the unit can be spammed to the heart content.

Or, you know, Dark Reapers from beginning of 8th. 20 points for model with better gun with twice the range, so 2 shots for 40, but they could fire twice with typical broken Eldar so had double the firepower new guys get, on top of best special rules in the game back then, for pretty much free. The amount of people claiming they were not a problem and just fine here back then was unbelievable.

Now primaris get something worse in pretty much all regards and all the saltworks exploded at once. Funny that, eh?

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
And you know we won't get the rest of the plastic aspect warriors for a while because the banshees were sold 55/5models (with no real options) vs 60/10 intercessors (more chunky, more models, more options).

How about something actually unbiased, elite vs elite, not vs troops. Eliminators are 50 for 3. You were saying?

Martel732 wrote:
Primaris are the new Eldar, in case anyone didn't know that yet.

*yaaawn*

Wake me up when they get 190 points Imperial Knights and 2+ BS/WS for just existing like Eldar did in 7th edition. Or can leave table on opponents turn to make sure they suffer zero damage like Tau could back then. Or get any other broken garbage these two armies got then, which funnily would be beyond OP in any other army but was 'meh' in these two due to amount of other OP cheese it needed to compete with. Funnily enough, I seem to recall xeno players were all "iT's ToTeS bAlAnCeD bRo jUsT gIt GuD" during 6th and 7th. Ditto for Reapers and Hunters for most of 8th. But now that SM get tiny sliver of the gigantic Gorgonzola wheel xenos used to autowin all battles back then suddenly the whole sky is falling and a mere drop of a taste of your own medicine makes the game completely unfair. Hmm...

Maybe someone should take a deep, long look into the mirror, methinks

SM might be too good. Fine. But seeing the exact same types who endlessly proclaimed Tau/Eldar stuff is perfectly fine and balanced now wail the game is dead because they face a mere shadow of what they themselves did is hilarious.

I am expecting them to be 36-37pts each, 21 for the base model (Same as an Aggressor) plus 15-16 for the gun.

Looks like Melta/Fusion and similar weapons might be dropping by about 50% in 9th?

sanguine40k wrote:
I am expecting them to be 36-37pts each, 21 for the base model (Same as an Aggressor) plus 15-16 for the gun.

Looks like Melta/Fusion and similar weapons might be dropping by about 50% in 9th?

That's my bet. I think they're dropping the cost of all special weapons. The example lists weren't much differently costed than what they are except marines.

So for irbis your argument is that because they're slightly worse than one unit that was so broken it got limited to 1 per detachment even with Ro3 and one unit that took at least 2 rounds of nerfs, these guys are fine?

Bold. Take.

All ima say is the same people who were "ohh SM codex 2.0 aint so bad wait and see. IH supplament cant be as bad as everyone saying.. just wait and see" Well. we know what happened for the last year or so.

The same voices are now saying "ohh this might not be so bad. Lets wait and see"

Can we just not do this for once..
Once again obvious OP rules is obvious.. Cmon..

 catbarf wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I can't believe anyone would price them at 50 points a model. They aren't worth it. Honestly, they're just hitting the worth at being 33-35 points. They're not broken, simply all other Melta just downright sucks. Period.

Are we talking 'worth it' in the meaning of 'fairly priced compared to the rest of the game' or 'worth it' in the meaning of 'yes I would take this to LVO where only the very best, most broken builds from any codex ever show up'?

I mean, at 33-35pts these guys are better than Hellblasters in every way that matters. Same cost, comparable range and rate of fire, double the average damage, no risk of overheat, higher T and an extra wound. All they lose is an inch of movement.

People keep saying 'these only seem broken because melta sucks'. Well, no, they seem broken because they're flat-out better for the cost than any infantry AT I can think of. What other anti-tank infantry are comparable to this?

Well.i can tell you that I don't think Hellblasters are any good either so there ya go. Hellblasters invalidated themselves.

ERJAK wrote:
So for irbis your argument is that because they're slightly worse than one unit that was so broken it got limited to 1 per detachment even with Ro3 and one unit that took at least 2 rounds of nerfs, these guys are fine?

Bold. Take.

Makes a false argument at the base as well. Despite being BS2 the shooting potential is not worth 4 eradicators (8 shots) because its still only limited to 4 shots on the platform. Assuming all shots hit (which is not unlikely with a 2+ BS) that will still only max 4 hits. 3 eradictors firing twice will average - wait for it - 4 hits. This is discounting any rerolls which only benefit the eradicators in this situation because the Coldstar has already maxed out its hit potential. The eradicators, while beaten by the coldstar WRT mobility have better engagement ranges (24/12 vs 18/9). Also the coldstar can't take iridium armor IIRC (2+ Armour save)

The primaris also have better wound distribution then the cold star.

ERJAK wrote:
So for irbis your argument is that because they're slightly worse than one unit that was so broken it got limited to 1 per detachment even with Ro3 and one unit that took at least 2 rounds of nerfs, these guys are fine?

Bold. Take.

Plus he’s actually wrong, eradicators land more hits than fusion commanders (3.33 vs 4), and they are likely closer to 100 pts than 120. They also have 9 T5 wounds to the commander’s 6. So, they are actually deadlier and tougher than a commander, for cheaper, though with no deep strike. Maybe we should limit them to 1 per detachment too?

The Eradicators do seem a bit over the top, but we'll have to see their final points cost. I'm more concerned that this means the melta rule didn't change. For regular meltas to become useful on, say, Chaos Marines, they'd practically have to be free.

Another factor to consider as we start to see Primaris units that are actually good, or even overpowered, is that the Meta will shift. Primaris units that have no other weaknesses still have one big, glaring one: they are multiwound models without invul saves, making them horribly inefficient vs weapons with D above 1. People will start bringing more of that to counter a Primaris heavy field, which will also help 1w infantry catch up.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
The Eradicators do seem a bit over the top, but we'll have to see their final points cost. I'm more concerned that this means the melta rule didn't change. For regular meltas to become useful on, say, Chaos Marines, they'd practically have to be free.

Another factor to consider as we start to see Primaris units that are actually good, or even overpowered, is that the Meta will shift. Primaris units that have no other weaknesses still have one big, glaring one: they are multiwound models without invul saves, making them horribly inefficient vs weapons with D above 1. People will start bringing more of that to counter a Primaris heavy field, which will also help 1w infantry catch up.

They don't actually do as bad as you would thibk when you give then IH 5+Invulnerable and 5+FNP aura's you need flat4 damage or beter to kill 1 per wound. Thats not common especially not at a price poitn that is effective, agressors you could kite to an extent as their doyble shooting requires staying still. These lads your not doing that to.

Ice_can wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
The Eradicators do seem a bit over the top, but we'll have to see their final points cost. I'm more concerned that this means the melta rule didn't change. For regular meltas to become useful on, say, Chaos Marines, they'd practically have to be free.

Another factor to consider as we start to see Primaris units that are actually good, or even overpowered, is that the Meta will shift. Primaris units that have no other weaknesses still have one big, glaring one: they are multiwound models without invul saves, making them horribly inefficient vs weapons with D above 1. People will start bringing more of that to counter a Primaris heavy field, which will also help 1w infantry catch up.

They don't actually do as bad as you would thibk when you give then IH 5+Invulnerable and 5+FNP aura's you need flat4 damage or beter to kill 1 per wound. Thats not common especially not at a price poitn that is effective, agressors you could kite to an extent as their doyble shooting requires staying still. These lads your not doing that to.

Well sure, when you give them a bunch of defensive buffs, they do better defensively. But on the whole, Primaris armies are vulnerable to D2+ weapons.

ERJAK wrote:

 skchsan wrote:

Vilehydra wrote:
24" Meltas assault meltas are absolutely bonkers, Ones that can double tap, and with the strategic reserves you can even further mitigate range and penalties and enemy target priorities is just ridiculous.

I agree with the general sentiments in this post, but I think above is a bit of a stretch.

If you take into consideration the new heavy weapon rules & non-infantry interaction, there isn't much difference between melta rifles and multimelta, considering that there are only few infantries that can wield MM's.

For example, MM on AB's have 26" melta threat range w/o advancing vs MR on Eradicators have 17" melta threat range or 17"+d6" with -1 to hit after advancing.

I think it all comes down to how much these units are going to cost. Any less than 22 pts (or the cost of MM) for melta rifles will lean towards 'unbalanced' category unless melta weapons across the board gets price reduction.

That double-tap rule needs to be a stratagem however. ALL double anything rules NEEDS to be stratagem.

By few you mean 'every basic trooper in both SoB and oldmarine armies as well as specialist units in both'?

Yes. A battle sister w/ mm is functionally the same as retributor with mm. After all, doesn't retributor and reg. battle sister cost the same?

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
The Eradicators do seem a bit over the top, but we'll have to see their final points cost. I'm more concerned that this means the melta rule didn't change. For regular meltas to become useful on, say, Chaos Marines, they'd practically have to be free.

Another factor to consider as we start to see Primaris units that are actually good, or even overpowered, is that the Meta will shift. Primaris units that have no other weaknesses still have one big, glaring one: they are multiwound models without invul saves, making them horribly inefficient vs weapons with D above 1. People will start bringing more of that to counter a Primaris heavy field, which will also help 1w infantry catch up.

They don't actually do as bad as you would thibk when you give then IH 5+Invulnerable and 5+FNP aura's you need flat4 damage or beter to kill 1 per wound. Thats not common especially not at a price poitn that is effective, agressors you could kite to an extent as their doyble shooting requires staying still. These lads your not doing that to.

Well sure, when you give them a bunch of defensive buffs, they do better defensively. But on the whole, Primaris armies are vulnerable to D2+ weapons.

Minor vulnerability as most armies dont come with D2+ weapons for troops so the D2+ they are bringing is generalist weapons oftentimes on vehicals and its not like Primaris are short of additional units that take D2+ to kill quickly.

Ice_can wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
The Eradicators do seem a bit over the top, but we'll have to see their final points cost. I'm more concerned that this means the melta rule didn't change. For regular meltas to become useful on, say, Chaos Marines, they'd practically have to be free.

Another factor to consider as we start to see Primaris units that are actually good, or even overpowered, is that the Meta will shift. Primaris units that have no other weaknesses still have one big, glaring one: they are multiwound models without invul saves, making them horribly inefficient vs weapons with D above 1. People will start bringing more of that to counter a Primaris heavy field, which will also help 1w infantry catch up.

They don't actually do as bad as you would thibk when you give then IH 5+Invulnerable and 5+FNP aura's you need flat4 damage or beter to kill 1 per wound. Thats not common especially not at a price poitn that is effective, agressors you could kite to an extent as their doyble shooting requires staying still. These lads your not doing that to.

Well sure, when you give them a bunch of defensive buffs, they do better defensively. But on the whole, Primaris armies are vulnerable to D2+ weapons.

Minor vulnerability as most armies dont come with D2+ weapons for troops so the D2+ they are bringing is generalist weapons oftentimes on vehicals and its not like Primaris are short of additional units that take D2+ to kill quickly.

Early 8th showed us just how capable most people are of spamming plasma. That sort of meta could easily return. All factions can't do it equally, but just having a bunch of plasma spam lists running around would be a big deterrence on Primaris heavy lists. And stuff like Lances and Lascannons will take apart the Eradicators and Bikers very efficiently.

Meh, will remain with AC Spam on my non at units, those solve primaris decently enough imo.

So their weapon is smaller than a Multimelta, but the exact same stats except it's Assault? That's weird. One wonders what the point is of having the bigger gun?

Unless they make Multimeltas into a Blast weapon a la their 2nd edition incarnation.

But I'm not holding my breath.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

The Newman wrote:
PL 5 covers something like 85-135 points in a Marine list. My initial estimate in 8th-ed points was "the base dude should probably closer to 25 point Incursors than 21 point Aggressors, that gun is clearly better than a 20 point Multimelta even without the double-tap, so ~45 ppm at the low end".

135 for the unit is at the top end of the PL 5 range, but it's not out of that range. 135 is probably still too low though.

I don't think PL5 goes to 135. Aggressors are currently PL5 and range from 105 up to 111 making the average 108 and rounding them down to 100 -- ergo PL5. I am unsure is 119 would be PL5, but anything past that would be PL6.

A regular Dreadnaught is PL 5 and tops out at 134 points, which is honestly a bit lower that what I remembered. A sensible armament on one is going to run 100-120 though.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
The Eradicators do seem a bit over the top, but we'll have to see their final points cost. I'm more concerned that this means the melta rule didn't change. For regular meltas to become useful on, say, Chaos Marines, they'd practically have to be free.

Another factor to consider as we start to see Primaris units that are actually good, or even overpowered, is that the Meta will shift. Primaris units that have no other weaknesses still have one big, glaring one: they are multiwound models without invul saves, making them horribly inefficient vs weapons with D above 1. People will start bringing more of that to counter a Primaris heavy field, which will also help 1w infantry catch up.

They don't actually do as bad as you would thibk when you give then IH 5+Invulnerable and 5+FNP aura's you need flat4 damage or beter to kill 1 per wound. Thats not common especially not at a price poitn that is effective, agressors you could kite to an extent as their doyble shooting requires staying still. These lads your not doing that to.

Well sure, when you give them a bunch of defensive buffs, they do better defensively. But on the whole, Primaris armies are vulnerable to D2+ weapons.

Do remember that these are gravis with 3 wounds, requiring twice as many D2 wounds compared to their intercessor counterparts.

Remember when Space Marines were meant to be an army that revolved around strategy and making otherwise individually underwhelming units work in concert?


Haha nevermind here's a unit with nothing but double range meltaguns that fire twice such that it nukes vehicles that dare to exist within 24'' of it with minimal effort or brainpower involved

 Mr.Omega wrote:
Remember when Space Marines were meant to be an army that revolved around strategy and making otherwise individually underwhelming units work in concert?


Haha nevermind here's a unit with nothing but double range meltaguns that fire and twice such that it nukes vehicles that dare to exist within 24'' of it with minimal effort or brainpower involved

I member

 Mr.Omega wrote:
Remember when Space Marines were meant to be an army that revolved around strategy and making otherwise individually underwhelming units work in concert?


Haha nevermind here's a unit with nothing but double range meltaguns that fire twice such that it nukes vehicles that dare to exist within 24'' of it with minimal effort or brainpower involved

I remember those editions. I also remember space marines being easy wins at tournaments for any competitive Xenos player.

The Newman wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

The Newman wrote:
PL 5 covers something like 85-135 points in a Marine list. My initial estimate in 8th-ed points was "the base dude should probably closer to 25 point Incursors than 21 point Aggressors, that gun is clearly better than a 20 point Multimelta even without the double-tap, so ~45 ppm at the low end".

135 for the unit is at the top end of the PL 5 range, but it's not out of that range. 135 is probably still too low though.

I don't think PL5 goes to 135. Aggressors are currently PL5 and range from 105 up to 111 making the average 108 and rounding them down to 100 -- ergo PL5. I am unsure is 119 would be PL5, but anything past that would be PL6.

A regular Dreadnaught is PL 5 and tops out at 134 points, which is honestly a bit lower that what I remembered. A sensible armament on one is going to run 100-120 though.

Well, right. The average comes into play. ML, HPC dread is 96. (96 + 134) / 2 = 115 which falls into PL5 territory.

A discussion from GW's design team:

Community Guy: So, players are upset their units are being outclassed by our primaris releases. What can we do?

Marketing Guy: wHo CaReS JuST RePrInT fiREdRagONs bUT BeTtEr

I'm going to say these will initially be 29 points each - if they are 30+ then they will not provide as much incentive for people to mass buy them. They can then have the option to nerf them later on by increasing the cost when sales start declining. Look at them objectively - they have 6 total wounds... sure it's T5/3+ but that's it... There's no ++, no way to unload a large number of shots, no meat to absorb casualties - these will die, and badly to anything on a subsequent turn. As for the deep strike - screening units 4" around the target can eliminate the Melta bonus. So that's 6 shots with no bonus Melta rolls...

A Scion Command Squad can do the same thing with 4 Meltaguns - and if it's Iotan Gorgonnes, can deploy 5" away (within melta range, and able to mess with screens a whole lot easier)... The fact that they wont DS until T2, also means a Valkyrie Melta drop on T1 trumps these as well.

So in actuality, these are merely glass cannons until GW decides to give them a ++ or even more W...

They're W3, not W2.

 Blood Hawk wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:
Remember when Space Marines were meant to be an army that revolved around strategy and making otherwise individually underwhelming units work in concert?


Haha nevermind here's a unit with nothing but double range meltaguns that fire twice such that it nukes vehicles that dare to exist within 24'' of it with minimal effort or brainpower involved

I remember those editions. I also remember space marines being easy wins at tournaments for any competitive Xenos player.

And now we have a faction that has virtually no identity, that if you don't want to lose hard with, you have to make a ghastly looking, boring soup of superficially related units that involves whatever ridiculous pandering meta-based supermarine unit is in this year, (insert centurions, aggressors and eradicators here) minimal investment troops, some near invincible melee beatstick and other nonsense besides

Yes who am I kidding this is so much better