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 Daedalus81 wrote:
Eldar has psykers beyond what marines can pull.

sorry, what?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


Yeah, but valorous aren't the only Retributors and now you're including an army bonus while not including it for the Eradicators. Plus, if you upped it to an Executioner, the Valorous Heart now are killed quite easily, but the Eradicators keep on trucking.

It's like you're willfully missing the forest for the trees.

I know. I purposefully didn't wade into that, because it varies based on what you pick for your army. But people are purposefully ignoring the internal codex balance of armies. Sisters have their shtick. Eldar has psykers beyond what marines can pull.

You could go Salamander - the heavy doctrine means pretty much nothing to melta. Reroll a hit and wound catches them up to miracle dice. +1 to wound is nice, but then they "only" ignore AP1.

Executioner --

7 * .5 * .833 * .666 = 1.9 //Sisters in cover
7 * .5 * .666 * .833 * 2 = 3.9
7 * .5 * .666 * .833 * 2 = 3.1 //Eradicators in cover

So it takes 3 rounds to kill the Sisters and about 3 rounds to kill the Eradicators unless they're in cover. I remain unconvinced.

Really? Here's my math, to make it clear:
Out of cover
7*.5*.833*.833 (remember, Sisters only have a 6++): 2.5 sisters dead per round - that's a 5 girl squad dead in 2 rounds. 130 points, assuming new 9th edition costs for MMs and that Retributor girls don't change in base price.
7*.5*.666*.833 (Eradicators also get a 6+): 1.9 wounds get through, which is 4 damage, which kills 1. That's 3 rounds to wipe the Eradicators. 120 pts.

In cover:
7*.5*.833*.66 (now Sisters get a 5+) = 1.9 sisters dead, or about 3 rounds to wipe out 5 (though the unit's firepower will be degraded to a single shot after 2 rounds).
7*.5*.66*.66 (Eradicators also get a 5+) = 1.5 wounds through, which will also give about 3 rounds, but the unit's firepower will be better until slain.

So, in summary, the Eradicators are:
- Cheaper
- At least as durable against Executioner plasma tanks.
- Far more durable against small arms.

Now, let's look at output:
- Same gun, effectively, so no need for math.
- Eradicators have 6 shots compared to 4.
- Eradicators can run and shoot while having another army bonus.
- Eradicator firepower doesn't degrade as quickly (lucky shots getting through don't kill Multimeltas after the first)

If you aren't convinced I have no idea what's wrong with you.

They appear to be 40 ppm.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


Yeah, but valorous aren't the only Retributors and now you're including an army bonus while not including it for the Eradicators. Plus, if you upped it to an Executioner, the Valorous Heart now are killed quite easily, but the Eradicators keep on trucking.

It's like you're willfully missing the forest for the trees.

I know. I purposefully didn't wade into that, because it varies based on what you pick for your army. But people are purposefully ignoring the internal codex balance of armies. Sisters have their shtick. Eldar has psykers beyond what marines can pull.

You could go Salamander - the heavy doctrine means pretty much nothing to melta. Reroll a hit and wound catches them up to miracle dice. +1 to wound is nice, but then they "only" ignore AP1.

Executioner --

7 * .5 * .833 * .666 = 1.9 //Sisters in cover
7 * .5 * .666 * .833 * 2 = 3.9
7 * .5 * .666 * .833 * 2 = 3.1 //Eradicators in cover

So it takes 3 rounds to kill the Sisters and about 3 rounds to kill the Eradicators unless they're in cover. I remain unconvinced.

Ignoring the fact that even in this incredibly idealized scenario, against a weapon that heavily favors sisters, you've still got one more melta shot in round two and double the melta shots in round three. Oh, and 2 less morale checks.

Plus, don't get me started against d3 damage weapons like the Basilisk. Three wounds that get through saves may only kill one Eradicator, while it wipes out 3 sisters (2 of which are MM) guaranteed.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Oh. . . we get the fact that marines sell and GW loves to push them, yadda yadda. But there's still historically been a much closer parity and design-balance between factions in terms of how units compare on the table, somewhat independent of the disproportionate model support.

Primaris just junks all that precedent.

perhaps you could tell me how Reivers are OP? ya know since GW is clearly making every primaris unit OP right?

I didn't make that claim. Try again?

Everyone is so wound up about these that someone reports "rumor says these are 40 points WITHOUT THE GUN" and the next dozen posts are complaining that 120 points for the unit is still too cheap. It makes some of the back-and-forth over reading comprehension particularly ironic.

I honestly think the thread should probably be locked at this point, but the salt would just migrate somewhere else.

The Newman wrote:
Everyone is so wound up about these that someone reports "rumor says these are 40 points WITHOUT THE GUN" and the next dozen posts are complaining that 120 points for the unit is still too cheap. It makes some of the back-and-forth over reading comprehension particularly ironic.

I honestly think the thread should probably be locked at this point, but the salt would just migrate somewhere else.

What makes you think a unique gun on a unit that can't be replaced will have a points cost for some reason? Just sheer incredulity that they could only be 40 pts? That's not very convincing.

The Newman wrote:
Everyone is so wound up about these that someone reports "rumor says these are 40 points WITHOUT THE GUN" and the next dozen posts are complaining that 120 points for the unit is still too cheap. It makes some of the back-and-forth over reading comprehension particularly ironic.

I honestly think the thread should probably be locked at this point, but the salt would just migrate somewhere else.

Screenshot pretty definitely shows that wargear is included tho. And why would a thread get locked if it doesn't break any rules?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So why aren't we looking to fix the weapon that's STILL NOT BEING USED instead of nerfing a usable unit just because "GW won't fix the MM"?

A: Because the Melta Rifle is strictly better than the Multimelta
and
B: Multimeltas aren't particularly bad, they're just overshadowed by the other options in most cases. Las, Plasma and Grav are better choices.

You're...literally proving my point. You named ALL the other Heavy Weapons. The Multi-Melta just isn't good for anything. The Melta Rifle existing doesn't invalidate the Multi-Melta because the Multi-Melta was invalidated by it's own existence!

A: I didn't name all the other weapons.
And
B: The Multimelta is still a reasonable choice for certain builds, jobs and platforms.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

The Newman wrote:
Everyone is so wound up about these that someone reports "rumor says these are 40 points WITHOUT THE GUN" and the next dozen posts are complaining that 120 points for the unit is still too cheap. It makes some of the back-and-forth over reading comprehension particularly ironic.

I honestly think the thread should probably be locked at this point, but the salt would just migrate somewhere else.

Screenshot pretty definitely shows that wargear is included tho. And why would a thread get locked if it doesn't break any rules?

Oh yea, it also says "including wargear". There's that too.

The Newman wrote:
Everyone is so wound up about these that someone reports "rumor says these are 40 points WITHOUT THE GUN" and the next dozen posts are complaining that 120 points for the unit is still too cheap. It makes some of the back-and-forth over reading comprehension particularly ironic.

I honestly think the thread should probably be locked at this point, but the salt would just migrate somewhere else.

Is that rumour going to be accurate, though? 40 points, in a three man squad, is 120 total-or PL 6 before weaponry, which isn't how PL works.

They've already been shown to be PL 5.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


Yeah, but valorous aren't the only Retributors and now you're including an army bonus while not including it for the Eradicators. Plus, if you upped it to an Executioner, the Valorous Heart now are killed quite easily, but the Eradicators keep on trucking.

It's like you're willfully missing the forest for the trees.

I know. I purposefully didn't wade into that, because it varies based on what you pick for your army. But people are purposefully ignoring the internal codex balance of armies. Sisters have their shtick. Eldar has psykers beyond what marines can pull.

You could go Salamander - the heavy doctrine means pretty much nothing to melta. Reroll a hit and wound catches them up to miracle dice. +1 to wound is nice, but then they "only" ignore AP1.

Executioner --

7 * .5 * .833 * .666 = 1.9 //Sisters in cover
7 * .5 * .666 * .833 * 2 = 3.9
7 * .5 * .666 * .833 * 2 = 3.1 //Eradicators in cover

So it takes 3 rounds to kill the Sisters and about 3 rounds to kill the Eradicators unless they're in cover. I remain unconvinced.

Really? Here's my math, to make it clear:
Out of cover
7*.5*.833*.833 (remember, Sisters only have a 6++): 2.5 sisters dead per round - that's a 5 girl squad dead in 2 rounds. 130 points, assuming new 9th edition costs for MMs and that Retributor girls don't change in base price.
7*.5*.666*.833 (Eradicators also get a 6+): 1.9 wounds get through, which is 4 damage, which kills 1. That's 3 rounds to wipe the Eradicators. 120 pts.

In cover:
7*.5*.833*.66 (now Sisters get a 5+) = 1.9 sisters dead, or about 3 rounds to wipe out 5 (though the unit's firepower will be degraded to a single shot after 2 rounds).
7*.5*.66*.66 (Eradicators also get a 5+) = 1.5 wounds through, which will also give about 3 rounds, but the unit's firepower will be better until slain.

So, in summary, the Eradicators are:
- Cheaper
- At least as durable against Executioner plasma tanks.
- Far more durable against small arms.

Now, let's look at output:
- Same gun, effectively, so no need for math.
- Eradicators have 6 shots compared to 4.
- Eradicators can run and shoot while having another army bonus.
- Eradicator firepower doesn't degrade as quickly (lucky shots getting through don't kill Multimeltas after the first)

If you aren't convinced I have no idea what's wrong with you.

He’s almost on his third page worth of replies in this thread alone. What’s wrong here is that his investment into this argument extends far beyond rationalisation or critical analysis, there’s a very clear bias here and no amount of reason can cause someone to step down from a position they didn’t reason themselves into.

 JNAProductions wrote:

The Newman wrote:
Everyone is so wound up about these that someone reports "rumor says these are 40 points WITHOUT THE GUN" and the next dozen posts are complaining that 120 points for the unit is still too cheap. It makes some of the back-and-forth over reading comprehension particularly ironic.

I honestly think the thread should probably be locked at this point, but the salt would just migrate somewhere else.

Is that rumour going to be accurate, though? 40 points, in a three man squad, is 120 total-or PL 6 before weaponry, which isn't how PL works.

They've already been shown to be PL 5.

F-ed if I know, I just read the post on page 11 that said "40 points before the weapon" and then went back to make sure I hadn't read it wrong when everyone reacted like it said "40 points with the weapon".

 JNAProductions wrote:

The Newman wrote:
Everyone is so wound up about these that someone reports "rumor says these are 40 points WITHOUT THE GUN" and the next dozen posts are complaining that 120 points for the unit is still too cheap. It makes some of the back-and-forth over reading comprehension particularly ironic.

I honestly think the thread should probably be locked at this point, but the salt would just migrate somewhere else.

Is that rumour going to be accurate, though? 40 points, in a three man squad, is 120 total-or PL 6 before weaponry, which isn't how PL works.

They've already been shown to be PL 5.

It was 1 for 20 in 8th edition, then they said points in 9th will go up slightly.

Honestly with all the ups and downs in points in all the chapter approved books, trying to draw a direct comparison between PL and points cost is losing battle.

Until something else pops up, and as long as the eradicators are following the crazy statline, output and cost of other gravis units, I see no reason not to believe the 40ppm lunacy.

The Newman wrote:
Everyone is so wound up about these that someone reports "rumor says these are 40 points WITHOUT THE GUN" and the next dozen posts are complaining that 120 points for the unit is still too cheap. It makes some of the back-and-forth over reading comprehension particularly ironic.

I honestly think the thread should probably be locked at this point, but the salt would just migrate somewhere else.

The leak shows other units with their gun costs included. I HIGHLY doubt they'll be more.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

The Newman wrote:
Everyone is so wound up about these that someone reports "rumor says these are 40 points WITHOUT THE GUN" and the next dozen posts are complaining that 120 points for the unit is still too cheap. It makes some of the back-and-forth over reading comprehension particularly ironic.

I honestly think the thread should probably be locked at this point, but the salt would just migrate somewhere else.

The leak shows other units with their gun costs included. I HIGHLY doubt they'll be more.

Correct. Guns typically have a point cost if they are shared amongst different units, but this appears to be only takable by this unit, so they just bake it in.

 Nitro Zeus wrote:


He’s almost on his third page worth of replies in this thread alone. What’s wrong here is that his investment into this argument extends far beyond rationalisation or critical analysis, there’s a very clear bias here and no amount of reason can cause someone to step down from a position they didn’t reason themselves into.

Maybe you should start at the beginning when I thought they might be busted and then changed my opinion? Or is that too biased for you? You guys just can't get over your "but Primaris are bigger!" envy that you've tossed out every single other consideration. I've also very plainly stated I'm working from a position of low information. So continue to obtuse all you want. We'll let it shake out on the table.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Nitro Zeus wrote:


He’s almost on his third page worth of replies in this thread alone. What’s wrong here is that his investment into this argument extends far beyond rationalisation or critical analysis, there’s a very clear bias here and no amount of reason can cause someone to step down from a position they didn’t reason themselves into.

Maybe you should start at the beginning when I thought they might be busted and then changed my opinion? Or is that too biased for you? You guys just can't get over your "but Primaris are bigger!" envy that you've tossed out every single other consideration. I've also very plainly stated I'm working from a position of low information. So continue to obtuse all you want. We'll let it shake out on the table.

So now that we do have info, it's not "wait for more info" but "wait for games to be played." What's next, "wait for the FAQ"? Then "wait for the next FAQ"?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Nitro Zeus wrote:


He’s almost on his third page worth of replies in this thread alone. What’s wrong here is that his investment into this argument extends far beyond rationalisation or critical analysis, there’s a very clear bias here and no amount of reason can cause someone to step down from a position they didn’t reason themselves into.

Maybe you should start at the beginning when I thought they might be busted and then changed my opinion? Or is that too biased for you? You guys just can't get over your "but Primaris are bigger!" envy that you've tossed out every single other consideration. I've also very plainly stated I'm working from a position of low information. So continue to obtuse all you want. We'll let it shake out on the table.

They can take off more than their own points worth of Knights using 8th editions points for Knights and the higher 40 points per for these guys. These lads at 30-35 as per 5PL just get better and better. Units killing 100% of their points costs in 1 shooting phase with basic army aura buffs is not exactly good for balance.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Nitro Zeus wrote:


He’s almost on his third page worth of replies in this thread alone. What’s wrong here is that his investment into this argument extends far beyond rationalisation or critical analysis, there’s a very clear bias here and no amount of reason can cause someone to step down from a position they didn’t reason themselves into.

Maybe you should start at the beginning when I thought they might be busted and then changed my opinion? Or is that too biased for you? You guys just can't get over your "but Primaris are bigger!" envy that you've tossed out every single other consideration. I've also very plainly stated I'm working from a position of low information. So continue to obtuse all you want. We'll let it shake out on the table.

So now that we do have info, it's not "wait for more info" but "wait for games to be played." What's next, "wait for the FAQ"? Then "wait for the next FAQ"?

Surely Iron Hands conclusively showed us that even when something is transparently unfair on paper, we can't infer any useful conclusions without waiting for a few tournaments to return results, right?

That leak is most likely a fake for many reasons.

Eradicators will be cheaper than 40 points, they are PL5.

 catbarf wrote:


Surely Iron Hands conclusively showed us that even when something is transparently unfair on paper, we can't infer any useful conclusions without waiting for a few tournaments to return results, right?

Are we pretending like I defended IH now, too?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 catbarf wrote:


Surely Iron Hands conclusively showed us that even when something is transparently unfair on paper, we can't infer any useful conclusions without waiting for a few tournaments to return results, right?

Are we pretending like I defended IH now, too?

No, and I apologize if I gave that impression. But we have more than enough information at this point to judge Eradicators. There is no X factor that will only be revealed through emergent gameplay. The only exception might be if it turns out that the leaks are wrong and they're actually more expensive, but with the PL given on WarCom, the opposite seems more likely.

Spoletta wrote:
That leak is most likely a fake for many reasons.

Eradicators will be cheaper than 40 points, they are PL5.

Not necessarily. I doubt the melta rifles are the only planned loadout for Eradicators and PL tends to be based on average across all weapon options.

I would love for it to be true.

The right cost for an eradicator right now is no less than 48.

Ice_can wrote:

They can take off more than their own points worth of Knights using 8th editions points for Knights and the higher 40 points per for these guys. These lads at 30-35 as per 5PL just get better and better. Units killing 100% of their points costs in 1 shooting phase with basic army aura buffs is not exactly good for balance.

They realistically do 3.5 to 4.5 damage to a knight who throws up a 4++ and 4.7 to 6 otherwise.

You'll have to excuse me if I don't lose my lunch over that. Then the knight gets to go step on them and with 3 shots on 6s for 1 CP...not particularly troublesome.

Spoletta wrote:
That leak is most likely a fake for many reasons.

Eradicators will be cheaper than 40 points, they are PL5.

Heh. Even at 40 that's less than two Multimeltas in 8th ed points, despite being better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

They can take off more than their own points worth of Knights using 8th editions points for Knights and the higher 40 points per for these guys. These lads at 30-35 as per 5PL just get better and better. Units killing 100% of their points costs in 1 shooting phase with basic army aura buffs is not exactly good for balance.

They realistically do 3.5 to 4.5 damage to a knight who throws up a 4++ and 4.7 to 6 otherwise.

I get 7.19 with CM+Lt Rerolls. 8.99 with Oath relic rerolls.

The Community article on Patrol battle types gives the exchange as 25PL = 500pts, so the 1:20 rate still seems applicable.

SoB Retributors are a good equivalent, and you're looking at about 140 points for 4 multi-meltas. For 150 points, you can get 2 bald babies, too.

That gives you a 5w, s3, t3, 3+, 6++ unit pumping out 6 S8 -4AP D6 damage shots in one round, or 4 in subsequent rounds - but your enemy isn't going to let them live long enough to fire again.

Or, for 5PL (or the leaked 120pts), you can have a 9w, s4, t5, 3+ unit pumping out 6 S8 -4AP D6 damage shots EVERY round. They also won't get to fire again, but 9w and t5 means a significantly higher investment of firepower to stop them vs. Retributors.

And this is my problem with Primaris units. Can you make Retributors perform at a similar level, maybe even a higher level, with careful consideration of miracle dice, order bonus, and stratagems? Sure.

But Primaris just GET to perform at that level, even before chapter bonus and stratagems.

Primaris keep being given tools that ignore limitations other armies have to struggle with. It's frustrating to have to plan my whole detachment around maximizing Retributors, and then they get these guys. Or relying on stratagems to deploy Necrons after my transports get blown out of the air, while they get a transport that can simply deploy after moving.

It's not necessarily that Primaris units are out-and-out better than any equivalent, it's that they keep getting these bespoke special units that, for anyone else, takes some investment of time, strategy, and luck to replicate.

 Insectum7 wrote:
I get 7.19 with CM+Lt Rerolls. 8.99 with Oath relic rerolls.

Yes, but then we're talking more than 120 points and all those models danger close to a knight (or two).