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Kitane wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
That leak is most likely a fake for many reasons.

Eradicators will be cheaper than 40 points, they are PL5.

Not necessarily. I doubt the melta rifles are the only planned loadout for Eradicators and PL tends to be based on average across all weapon options.

pretty sure eradicators are in the same boat as hellblasters, a squad with a single weapon option that hyperspecializes in one thing.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
I get 7.19 with CM+Lt Rerolls. 8.99 with Oath relic rerolls.

Yes, but then we're talking more than 120 points and all those models danger close to a knight (or two).

You don't engage a Knight with bits and pieces of an army, generally. I certainly don't.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
I get 7.19 with CM+Lt Rerolls. 8.99 with Oath relic rerolls.

Yes, but then we're talking more than 120 points and all those models danger close to a knight (or two).

Since when is 24" Danger Close?

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
I get 7.19 with CM+Lt Rerolls. 8.99 with Oath relic rerolls.

Yes, but then we're talking more than 120 points and all those models danger close to a knight (or two).

Since when is 24" Danger Close?

It's 12" for the Melta bonus.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
I get 7.19 with CM+Lt Rerolls. 8.99 with Oath relic rerolls.

Yes, but then we're talking more than 120 points and all those models danger close to a knight (or two).

Since when is 24" Danger Close?

Ever since Knights could advance and charge with a strat.

 Blood Hawk wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
I get 7.19 with CM+Lt Rerolls. 8.99 with Oath relic rerolls.

Yes, but then we're talking more than 120 points and all those models danger close to a knight (or two).

Since when is 24" Danger Close?

Ever since Knights could advance and charge with a strat.

But they can't move over other models except when falling back. A line of Intercessors, Scouts, Bikers, literally anything will stop them from hitting your Eradicators and HQs.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
I get 7.19 with CM+Lt Rerolls. 8.99 with Oath relic rerolls.

Yes, but then we're talking more than 120 points and all those models danger close to a knight (or two).

You don't engage a Knight with bits and pieces of an army, generally. I certainly don't.

Ok to put it in terms you'll appreciate --

GravC devs used to be 33. They're now 25. Drop Pod slid 3 to 68. 188 for the party.

8 * .833 * .555 * .5 * 2.5 = 4.6 // cherub + sarge
12 * .666 * .555 * .5 * 2.5 = 5.5

10 damage for 188 + 1CP. You got 7.2 for 120 + 80 + 65 + 2CP.

Which are you going to take?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
I get 7.19 with CM+Lt Rerolls. 8.99 with Oath relic rerolls.

Yes, but then we're talking more than 120 points and all those models danger close to a knight (or two).

You don't engage a Knight with bits and pieces of an army, generally. I certainly don't.

Ok to put it in terms you'll appreciate --

GravC devs used to be 33. They're now 25. Drop Pod slid 3 to 68. 188 for the party.

8 * .833 * .555 * .5 * 2.5 = 4.6 // cherub + sarge
12 * .666 * .555 * .5 * 2.5 = 5.5

10 damage for 188 + 1CP. You got 7.2 for 120 + 80 + 65 + 2CP.

Which are you going to take?

Now run the math with three squads of Eradicators and three squads of Grav Devs.

21 damage against a 4++ from the Eradicators at 24", on 27 T5 wounds. So a single CP to change a low damage roll to a high one, or getting one squad within 12" means a dead Knight.
As compared to what?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

They can take off more than their own points worth of Knights using 8th editions points for Knights and the higher 40 points per for these guys. These lads at 30-35 as per 5PL just get better and better. Units killing 100% of their points costs in 1 shooting phase with basic army aura buffs is not exactly good for balance.

They realistically do 3.5 to 4.5 damage to a knight who throws up a 4++ and 4.7 to 6 otherwise.

You'll have to excuse me if I don't lose my lunch over that. Then the knight gets to go step on them and with 3 shots on 6s for 1 CP...not particularly troublesome.

Well when GW hand out Knights getting +1 inv save for being monfaction I'll consider the 4++.
They are stated at 5++, if you want to start spending CP lets add seal of oath to them too or salimandar bonuses.

Your maths is so laughably baised to Marines it's rediculous at this point.

6x.89x.58x.66 x3.5 = 7 wounds and its not like you weren't taking that CM LT buffs anyway. 7 wounds off of a Gallant the cheapest knight config possible is 109 points of a crusader its 132.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Now run the math with three squads of Eradicators and three squads of Grav Devs.

21 damage against a 4++ from the Eradicators at 24", on 27 T5 wounds. So a single CP to change a low damage roll to a high one, or getting one squad within 12" means a dead Knight.
As compared to what?

I don't think that would be a workable list design (3 Eradicator Death Ball). But you're talking 500 points, so I'll noodle a bit after I chew on these other leaks.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
I get 7.19 with CM+Lt Rerolls. 8.99 with Oath relic rerolls.

Yes, but then we're talking more than 120 points and all those models danger close to a knight (or two).

You don't engage a Knight with bits and pieces of an army, generally. I certainly don't.

Ok to put it in terms you'll appreciate --

GravC devs used to be 33. They're now 25. Drop Pod slid 3 to 68. 188 for the party.

8 * .833 * .555 * .5 * 2.5 = 4.6 // cherub + sarge
12 * .666 * .555 * .5 * 2.5 = 5.5

10 damage for 188 + 1CP. You got 7.2 for 120 + 80 + 65 + 2CP.

Which are you going to take?

A: Where are you getting these new point values?

B: I'm doing 12.7 with my Gravs because I'm putting Chapter Master/Oath bonus on them too.

C: Applying the price of CM and Lt is disingenuous since they can also be buffing every other unit in the army. Perhaps you might disseminate the cost across the other units in the area and across game turns. Keeping the temporal diffusion out of it, let's say 6%, (120 out of 2000). So 80+65x.06 = 8.7points and 1/10th a CP. That's about fair. Conversely, the price is a Relic for Oath, or 1CP for Extra Relic Oath, which again, helps the entire army.

D: Personally, I'm taking the Gravs because go-classic-or-go-home. But presumably the smart thing to do would be to simply take both, because you can only use the Grav Strat on one unit. Likewise, I can only Strat one unit into Tac Doctrine on the first turn to counter the moving and firing with Heavy Weapons penalty out of the Pod in my alpha strike. Who knows, the Eradicators might be Elites rather than Heavy, so they're easier to take as well.

E: Eradicators still make Fire Dragons look like chumps.

F: A Squadron of Land Speeders pays 132 points for the privilege of bringing the same firepower as Eradicators, and that's after spending 135 points on the chassis capable of taking them.

Once again, Fire Dragons have been chumps the whole edition and Multi-Melta has been a bad purchase on Land Speeders since the beginning of the edition as well. Eradicators did nothing to change this.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Once again, Fire Dragons have been chumps the whole edition and Multi-Melta has been a bad purchase on Land Speeders since the beginning of the edition as well. Eradicators did nothing to change this.

Exactly. Eradicators did nothing to change this. That's precisely the problem

"HERE IS NEW THING"
"but what about the old broken thing you could've spent your time fixing instead?"
"PSH WE DON'T MAKE MONEY ON THAT. BUY NEW THING."

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Once again, Fire Dragons have been chumps the whole edition and Multi-Melta has been a bad purchase on Land Speeders since the beginning of the edition as well. Eradicators did nothing to change this.

Exactly. Eradicators did nothing to change this. That's precisely the problem

"HERE IS NEW THING"
"but what about the old broken thing you could've spent your time fixing instead?"
"PSH WE DON'T MAKE MONEY ON THAT. BUY NEW THING."

Yeah, this.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Once again, Fire Dragons have been chumps the whole edition and Multi-Melta has been a bad purchase on Land Speeders since the beginning of the edition as well. Eradicators did nothing to change this.

Exactly. Eradicators did nothing to change this. That's precisely the problem

"HERE IS NEW THING"
"but what about the old broken thing you could've spent your time fixing instead?"
"PSH WE DON'T MAKE MONEY ON THAT. BUY NEW THING."

Yeah, this.

I've already told all y'all how to solve that problem. It isn't my job to do it for you.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Once again, Fire Dragons have been chumps the whole edition and Multi-Melta has been a bad purchase on Land Speeders since the beginning of the edition as well. Eradicators did nothing to change this.

Exactly. Eradicators did nothing to change this. That's precisely the problem

"HERE IS NEW THING"
"but what about the old broken thing you could've spent your time fixing instead?"
"PSH WE DON'T MAKE MONEY ON THAT. BUY NEW THING."

Yeah, this.

I've already told all y'all how to solve that problem. It isn't my job to do it for you.

What was your recommendation again? I seem to have missed it in all the dying-on-hills.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Once again, Fire Dragons have been chumps the whole edition and Multi-Melta has been a bad purchase on Land Speeders since the beginning of the edition as well. Eradicators did nothing to change this.

Exactly. Eradicators did nothing to change this. That's precisely the problem

"HERE IS NEW THING"
"but what about the old broken thing you could've spent your time fixing instead?"
"PSH WE DON'T MAKE MONEY ON THAT. BUY NEW THING."

Yeah, this.

I've already told all y'all how to solve that problem. It isn't my job to do it for you.

What was your recommendation again? I seem to have missed it in all the dying-on-hills.

1. Don't buy GW's rules
2. Email their rules/FAQ team asking for improvements, or say you won't buy the rules until stuff is fixed
It's almost voting with your wallet. The more they lose on the codices, the harder they'll work to ensure it doesn't happen that often.

Honestly, this is just a symptom of an over all issue.

For as long as I've played people said marines are better based on model support and the fact they are the poster boys. Rarely were they just heads and shoulders above everyone.

Now, it feels like they've turned a corner and not only are they getting the vast majority of single faction love for models but they are also getting units that just adhere to " Better is Better " and so they are.

Are they meta defining ? Probably not but they are just way better than most similar units because of stats, cost and weapon. It's as if everyone else has the old busted and marines alone enjoy the new hotness both literal and figurative.

It only adds to the very real feeling of its Marines or nothing. Unit power creep is very real and very alive with the new Primaris stuff and it feels like they just don't even care to hide it anymore.

The fact that Primaris have so many good choices even this great choice may not be seen a lot is really a bit staggering and just leads to people feeling done dirty by the GW design.

These aren't the reason Primaris are showing up as regular game power ++, they are just a symptom of that being a steady and seemingly not stopping trend at this point.

Marines were always complained about being just better, this is just that finally becoming a reality with all the ++ treatment they keep getting. As everyone else stays pretty much the same they'd been for awhile with just points moving around. Feels bad Marine.

So the fact that a melta unit maths out better than many alternatives vs something with a 4++ (the worst possible target for melta), should say how absurd this thing is vs anything without an invul (meltas ideal target). This the same people talking about how transports etc are on the rise in 9th, it’s clear that Eradicators gonna be really damn strong

I’m all for playtesting before drawing a conclusion, but this is not a complex unit. It has like one special rule and it’s basically just doubling output

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Once again, Fire Dragons have been chumps the whole edition and Multi-Melta has been a bad purchase on Land Speeders since the beginning of the edition as well. Eradicators did nothing to change this.

Exactly. Eradicators did nothing to change this. That's precisely the problem

"HERE IS NEW THING"
"but what about the old broken thing you could've spent your time fixing instead?"
"PSH WE DON'T MAKE MONEY ON THAT. BUY NEW THING."

Yeah, this.

I've already told all y'all how to solve that problem. It isn't my job to do it for you.

This is the thread for us to discuss the unit and come to this outcome. If you have nothing to contribute which you blatantly don’t, why are you in here?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
1. Don't buy GW's rules
2. Email their rules/FAQ team asking for improvements, or say you won't buy the rules until stuff is fixed
It's almost voting with your wallet. The more they lose on the codices, the harder they'll work to ensure it doesn't happen that often.

What part of that is mutually exclusive with pointing it out and complaining about it on DakkaDakka?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Once again, Fire Dragons have been chumps the whole edition and Multi-Melta has been a bad purchase on Land Speeders since the beginning of the edition as well. Eradicators did nothing to change this.

Exactly. Eradicators did nothing to change this. That's precisely the problem

"HERE IS NEW THING"
"but what about the old broken thing you could've spent your time fixing instead?"
"PSH WE DON'T MAKE MONEY ON THAT. BUY NEW THING."

Yeah, this.

I've already told all y'all how to solve that problem. It isn't my job to do it for you.

What was your recommendation again? I seem to have missed it in all the dying-on-hills.

He’s trying to say you shouldn’t be talking about it here in the thread dedicated to the topic, because fixing it isn’t something slayer is able to/willing to do. Instead, you should be emailing GW. This was what he said a few posts back. The way he talks like 40k general is his personal mailbox is just cringe.

Heaven forbid points be brought up, endorsed/countered/honed/refuted in some sort of discussion.

Looks like meltaguns are 10 pts for marines. I guess that's GW table scraps for the oldbois. Multimelta still look way overcosted though.

Martel732 wrote:
Looks like meltaguns are 10 pts for marines.

Where are people getting these point values?

A leak that went out today evidently.

But tacs went up to 15 and scouts 14. No thanks.

Martel732 wrote:
A leak that went out today evidently.

But tacs went up to 15 and scouts 14. No thanks.

Ahh found it. I interneted.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Okay, definitely calling that Multimeltas will get the Melta bonus at full range.

Don't forget, Salamanders get +1 to wound with Meltas. If these aren't somehow faq'd on Day 1, I don't see what the point of even trying to have a meta is. It's clear GW just wants Primaris Marines to have the top spot. Everyone else just fights for the left overs.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
A leak that went out today evidently.

But tacs went up to 15 and scouts 14. No thanks.

Ahh found it. I interneted.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Okay, definitely calling that Multimeltas will get the Melta bonus at full range.

Do you think that's enough? I certainly don't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Don't forget, Salamanders get +1 to wound with Meltas. If these aren't somehow faq'd on Day 1, I don't see what the point of even trying to have a meta is. It's clear GW just wants Primaris Marines to have the top spot. Everyone else just fights for the left overs.

Bring your invulns I guess. Same as it is now.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
A leak that went out today evidently.

But tacs went up to 15 and scouts 14. No thanks.

Ahh found it. I interneted.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Okay, definitely calling that Multimeltas will get the Melta bonus at full range.

That would actually be a really nice way to make multimeltas at least more relevant.

 Nitro Zeus wrote:
So the fact that a melta unit maths out better than many alternatives vs something with a 4++ (the worst possible target for melta), should say how absurd this thing is vs anything without an invul (meltas ideal target). This the same people talking about how transports etc are on the rise in 9th, it’s clear that Eradicators gonna be really damn strong

I’m all for playtesting before drawing a conclusion, but this is not a complex unit. It has like one special rule and it’s basically just doubling output

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Once again, Fire Dragons have been chumps the whole edition and Multi-Melta has been a bad purchase on Land Speeders since the beginning of the edition as well. Eradicators did nothing to change this.

Exactly. Eradicators did nothing to change this. That's precisely the problem

"HERE IS NEW THING"
"but what about the old broken thing you could've spent your time fixing instead?"
"PSH WE DON'T MAKE MONEY ON THAT. BUY NEW THING."

Yeah, this.

I've already told all y'all how to solve that problem. It isn't my job to do it for you.

This is the thread for us to discuss the unit and come to this outcome. If you have nothing to contribute which you blatantly don’t, why are you in here?

It's a symptom of a problem I already pointed out, sport. I'm simply telling people what they need to do as I can't be the only one telling GW they're doing a gak job with their rules and that they expect us to pay for an errata essentially. So calm down, tiger.