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topaxygouroun i wrote:


By pricing them both 120 pts, you automatically do one of the following:

1. Admit that the MM is worth 20 pts, at which points eradicators are OP.

2. Admit that eradicators are worth 120 pts, at which point the melta weapons of every other faction are nerfed.

There is really no discussion that would get anyone around this.

The fact that they are comfortable releasing both those point pricings at the same time (not by having a gap between them where people actually found out that melta weapons suck or something), it means that you either made a mistake with the points costs, or that you made them better on purpose.

And it doesn't matter which one is it. GW is not a small indie company with 3.5 guys in a room. They don't get to make mistakes like that if they want my money. And they definitely won't get my money if they did this on purpose.

I will grant you your rant if MM stays as is, but Storm Shields, Chainswords, and Master Crafter Power Swords have all changed. It isn't beyond the realm of possibilities. I doubt they'll get two shots. I doubt they'll be worth 20. All the points we're looking at could be entirely wrong, but it sounds like we'll have the app on the 11th.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dysartes wrote:


Having said that, I'm unclear why the stated accuracy in Insectum's original calculation was .555 instead of .333 - any chance you could enlighten us, chief?

TBs reroll hits vs vehicles.

The closest contender I could come up with (in 8th points values) would be IG command squads with all Meltaguns. Like the Eradicators they are 20 points per BS3+, assault Melta shot. But they only have half their range and are much squishier.

If they had made them 18" Rapid Fire 1 (so you got two shots at half range it would be a little more reasonable (even if it makes T'au sad when they look at their fusion blasters).

Another thing to note re: having a shoot twice ability on the datasheet natively rather than as a Strategem (which is how pretty much everyone but Primaris get their shoot/fight/etc twice abilities) is that you aren't limited to one unit shooting twice like you would if it was a Strategem, so there's no strategic cost to taking more than one (as with a Strategem, you have to decide which unit is best to pop it on).

Space Marines (and Primaris in particular) just seem to be an exercise in removal of interesting choices nowadays. Instead of choosing when is the optimal turn to pop your reroll auras they're always on. Instead of choosing which unit to pop the 'shoot twice' Strategem on, shoot twice with all of them.

GW are turning them into the brain-dead faction - almost all of your interesting choices are decided before you've even rolled a dice.

Holy crap, I didn't even realise Primaris bolt pistols were 18" range? Christ that's stupid.

 Nazrak wrote:
Holy crap, I didn't even realise Primaris bolt pistols were 18" range? Christ that's stupid.

So, for the record, the same range as a Stormtrooper's Hellgun? Makes sense to me...

Nalim wrote:


Eradicators are PL5. We often saw the new Primaris units being priced a little bit higher than their power level suggests (Suppressors 4PL / 90P, Invictor 6PL 131/136P, Infiltrators 5PL / 110P,). I guess that, in 8th edition points, Eradicators will be priced somewhere between Dakka Aggressors and Dakka Inceptors. Let's make it easy and say they are 40 points apiece.

Seems I was spot on when it comes to points cost. However, I have to withdraw my previous balance judgement because of new information. Right now, we can only look at this units' codex-internal balance since we only know SM points costs for 9th edition (playtester leaks). They are, however, completely over the top. The most similar unit to them is Inceptors with Plasma Exterminators in Overcharge Mode. Both have similar range (M5+24 and M10+18) and similar ideal targets (T7, 3+, no invuln). Their defensive profile is identical, but Inceptors have Fly (+), Deep Strike (meh) and the chance to kill themselves (-). After all is said and done, they should be very similar when it comes to damage output. These are my calculations:



My new balance judgement: They are too cheap. In order to achieve codex-internal balance, they should be priced at 50 points.

That's assuming Plasma Inceptors are even good. Random number of shots that can kill your W3 model on the spot? Yeah, no.

I am rather worried about the Eradicators being crazy OP. I really like the models and I want to get a lot of them but I don't want to be TFG. I guess I can always take some Reivers to compensate... I like those models too.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That's assuming Plasma Inceptors are even good. Random number of shots that can kill your W3 model on the spot? Yeah, no.

They need to be in a buff bubble to overcharge (1/10 chance of dying then). But in a world where an Intercessor costs 20 points, these guys are - in my opinion - really good. I'll expect them to be a mainstay in 9th edition 2k SM armies, especially Ultramarines and Dark Angels. Eradicators are even better.

Nalim wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That's assuming Plasma Inceptors are even good. Random number of shots that can kill your W3 model on the spot? Yeah, no.

They need to be in a buff bubble to overcharge (1/10 chance of dying then). But in a world where an Intercessor costs 20 points, these guys are - in my opinion - really good. I'll expect them to be a mainstay in 9th edition 2k SM armies, especially Ultramarines and Dark Angels. Eradicators are even better.

I like the Bolt ones don't get me wrong.

I mean plasmaceptors have gone from 175 to 135 points in 9th. Bolter ones from 123 to 120. I don't see a reason to have the bolter ones now.


And so much for making everything more expensive to have more room on the low level of points to adjust things. Most things haven't increased more than 10% or something like that with the exception or stuff like thunderfire cannons that have increased 53%. This looks more like a normal Chapter Approved point change than a edition making everything more expensive.

(Deleted)

 Crimson wrote:
I am rather worried about the Eradicators being crazy OP. I really like the models and I want to get a lot of them but I don't want to be TFG. I guess I can always take some Reivers to compensate... I like those models too.

I would never brand you as a TFG if you took them, go right ahead.

They just bug me.

Even better news is it appear roumer is marines are getting another new codex early in 9th.

If thats not some favouritism BS I dont know what is.

Ice_can wrote:
Even better news is it appear roumer is marines are getting another new codex early in 9th.

If thats not some favouritism BS I dont know what is.

Well if it isn't 75% copy/paste + new stuff launching with the edition I would be surprised. Which would mean that for all the players that have bought the previous codex it would be an optional buy (like the second chaos codex).
What should be kinda new is the treatment of DA/BA/SW.

Ice_can wrote:
Even better news is it appear roumer is marines are getting another new codex early in 9th.

If thats not some favouritism BS I dont know what is.

Literally as soon as a new edition was announced, you should have known this was coming.

Especially when it became clear that it was going to feature a new setup/units. People have been whining nonstop about "too many sources" they have to carry, so of course they'd put out a book immediately.

dhallnet wrote:
What should be kinda new is the treatment of DA/BA/SW.

Aye, it'd be nice to see them get their codex - with whichever elements of the new stuff are appropriate - before the Space Marine Codex v3.0 comes out, given there'll be a pamphlet in the Big Box...

 Nazrak wrote:
Holy crap, I didn't even realise Primaris bolt pistols were 18" range? Christ that's stupid.

It changed for this edition. It used to be S4 as well.


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 Crimson wrote:
I am rather worried about the Eradicators being crazy OP. I really like the models and I want to get a lot of them but I don't want to be TFG. I guess I can always take some Reivers to compensate... I like those models too.

Proxy them and play a buddy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:
I mean plasmaceptors have gone from 175 to 135 points in 9th. Bolter ones from 123 to 120. I don't see a reason to have the bolter ones now.


And so much for making everything more expensive to have more room on the low level of points to adjust things. Most things haven't increased more than 10% or something like that with the exception or stuff like thunderfire cannons that have increased 53%. This looks more like a normal Chapter Approved point change than a edition making everything more expensive.

Bodies go up - weapons come down. I don't think I've ever seen anyone use Plasma Inceptors before.

 Galas wrote:
I mean plasmaceptors have gone from 175 to 135 points in 9th. Bolter ones from 123 to 120. I don't see a reason to have the bolter ones now.


And so much for making everything more expensive to have more room on the low level of points to adjust things. Most things haven't increased more than 10% or something like that with the exception or stuff like thunderfire cannons that have increased 53%. This looks more like a normal Chapter Approved point change than a edition making everything more expensive.

Points going up across the board, amiright guys?

stratigo wrote:

 Galas wrote:
I mean plasmaceptors have gone from 175 to 135 points in 9th. Bolter ones from 123 to 120. I don't see a reason to have the bolter ones now.


And so much for making everything more expensive to have more room on the low level of points to adjust things. Most things haven't increased more than 10% or something like that with the exception or stuff like thunderfire cannons that have increased 53%. This looks more like a normal Chapter Approved point change than a edition making everything more expensive.

Points going up across the board, amiright guys?

Points going up across the board =/= everything goes up

 Daedalus81 wrote:

stratigo wrote:

 Galas wrote:
I mean plasmaceptors have gone from 175 to 135 points in 9th. Bolter ones from 123 to 120. I don't see a reason to have the bolter ones now.


And so much for making everything more expensive to have more room on the low level of points to adjust things. Most things haven't increased more than 10% or something like that with the exception or stuff like thunderfire cannons that have increased 53%. This looks more like a normal Chapter Approved point change than a edition making everything more expensive.

Points going up across the board, amiright guys?

Points going up across the board =/= everything goes up

As I said, they announced it as everything going UP to have more room to balance. If they wanted to make things better, they should have made them more expensive but with less of an increment than other stuff.

Instead what we have is just a Chappter aproved point change. Somethings go up marginally, others go up substantially, and many go down.

 Galas wrote:


As I said, they announced it as everything going UP to have more room to balance. If they wanted to make things better, they should have made them more expensive but with less of an increment than other stuff.

Instead what we have is just a Chappter aproved point change. Somethings go up marginally, others go up substantially, and many go down.

I guess it's in how you want interpret a vague statement.

I dont think there is a model (before weapons) that went down in the leaks. Cheaper weapons promote more expensive units.

Plasma inceptors - never used. If they get used at 135 then that's still a net increase. The TTT game lists were 250+ more expensive from 8th iirc.

If the point list is correct, for 2k points I think you could get very close to a brigade like:

Captain
Lieutenant
Another character (IH special probably best, but currently no points. Chaplain maybe otherwise.)
Apothecary
Elites Choice 1
Elites Choice 2
6*5 Intercessors
3*3 Eradicators
3*3 Outriders (New bikes).

Depending on how you want to tool out these units you could go with an ancient and a blob of aggressors for the two remaining elites choices. Although I find the ancient quite swingy. Two invictors might be interesting if you wanted to try an early punch with the bikes. Some basic dakka dreads might be worth a look too.

No idea if its optimal - but it feels like an awful lot of stuff.

 Nazrak wrote:
Holy crap, I didn't even realise Primaris bolt pistols were 18" range? Christ that's stupid.

Am I missing something here? The previewed datacard for Eradicators on WHC has bolt pistol listed as 12" range, S4, AP0, D1.

Aash wrote:

 Nazrak wrote:
Holy crap, I didn't even realise Primaris bolt pistols were 18" range? Christ that's stupid.

Am I missing something here? The previewed datacard for Eradicators on WHC has bolt pistol listed as 12" range, S4, AP0, D1.

I believe they just have basic bolt pistols - the 18" ones are the Heavy Bolt Pistols.

sanguine40k wrote:

Aash wrote:

 Nazrak wrote:
Holy crap, I didn't even realise Primaris bolt pistols were 18" range? Christ that's stupid.

Am I missing something here? The previewed datacard for Eradicators on WHC has bolt pistol listed as 12" range, S4, AP0, D1.

I believe they just have basic bolt pistols - the 18" ones are the Heavy Bolt Pistols.

I see, thanks. This could be good for my Reivers.

I did envision the marines getting another codex soon after the editions release. I bet it'll have just enough changes to make it a must buy and not optional, just to get that tasty marine bucks in.

It's kind of a twisted favoritism though, tons of new books and releases all the time for Marines but damn if they don't charge the player base out the nose over and over and over. Honestly at this point, as much as I don't want to say it, they should just change the game name to " Space Marines, 40,000 "

At least make it easy on new players to know who is going to get like 75% of releases each year. It's actually getting a little much. Some smattering for another faction, then half a year of marines, a few kits, then marines. Even when Marines aren't supposed to be " The " release they are still getting stuff during other factions release windows it's crazy.

I know, I know. I'm just noticing this ? I'm not I've been noticing it but each year seems to grow more with intensity of that lopsided nature in this and I doubt it'll stop any time soon.

Even beyond the broke as a joke ERADICATOR !! rules for super melta guns, I'm sorry, Melta Rifles, the barrel is rifled that is why it shoots farther of course. Best keep these salty threads flowing as I feel like we'll just see these special ++ units more and more now.

 Galas wrote:


As I said, they announced it as everything going UP to have more room to balance.

But that's false. Maybe all the costs of the naked units are going up a bit, and I wouldn't even sure about that, but some wargear is definitely getting discounts, even significant ones, which make some units cheaper than in 8th.

Take devastators (or long fangs), they may be +2ppm in 9th but lascannons are -10ppm and missile launchers -5ppm, so the unit is actually cheaper than it was in 8th. My tipycal 5 man unit of long fangs with 4 lascannons is now 30pts cheaper, which is quite something, and the same unit equipped with missile launchers instead of lascannons is 10pts cheaper than it was before.

I've only seen the leaks about SM points, but I doubt that overcosted units from other armies will go up in points. Especially those ones, like ork buggies, which have recent kits that GW has the interest to sell more than some older boxes. If they go up in points they'll never see the table.

 Blackie wrote:

 Galas wrote:


As I said, they announced it as everything going UP to have more room to balance.

But that's false. Maybe all the costs of the naked units are going up a bit, and I wouldn't even sure about that, but some wargear is definitely getting discounts, even significant ones, which make some units cheaper than in 8th.

Take devastators (or long fangs), they may be +2ppm in 9th but lascannons are -10ppm and missile launchers -5ppm, so the unit is actually cheaper than it was in 8th. My tipycal 5 man unit of long fangs with 4 lascannons is now 30pts cheaper, which is quite something, and the same unit equipped with missile launchers instead of lascannons is 10pts cheaper than it was before.

I've only seen the leaks about SM points, but I doubt that overcosted units from other armies will go up in points. Especially those ones, like ork buggies, which have recent kits that GW has the interest to sell more than some older boxes. If they go up in points they'll never see the table.

Sisters of Battle Vs. GSC from tabletop tactics had both armies running some seriously trash units, mixed in with some good ones.

Both lists were made from the new munitorum handbook and both were almost a full THREE HUNDRED points more than in 8th. It doesn't seem to be false that almost everything, even bad units, are going up in 9th; it just seems like it's false that all marine units are going up in points by an amount similar to what other armies are.

Also, keep in mind that even among SM, Assault marines went up almost 25% with no meaningful compensatory buffs, the hunter and stalker went up quite a bit despite still being terrible, and Combi-flamers went up 2 despite regular flamers going DOWN 1 point, heavy bolters and multimeltas going UP while Assault Cannons and Lascannons went DOWN.

Basically, the point changes are super schizophrenic.

TlDR either Marines are about to have their play style flipped massively in their codex with aura hammer diying the horible death it deserves. (I seriously doubt this)

Someone royally screwed the game and it's going to be 40k the new 30k but with 9 legions edition.

warhammer 40000 9th edition the game about 9 chapter's of spacemarines fighting each other