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ERJAK wrote:

5 minutes per model? Even three layers of rattle can takes longer than that just off drying time./quote]

Hmm. Last month I painted 300some WHFB/AoS Goblins (including some orcs). I have a block of 20 orc boys that I joke are my 7 minute orcs - each model took an average of 7 minutes. They aren't Golden Demon champs, but they're still rather good. Especially for R&F meant to prop up the metal (& better painted) front line.

Grey plastic or black primer aren't the best looking miniatures but many tournaments armies that have models painted in 3 colours and in a hurry just to be in time to attend the event are way worse. I'm seeing lots of this gak unfortunately.

Heavy proxying, even if the models are golden damon level of painting, are way more annoying IMHO.

Love it.
It takes time and effort but the gaming experience is nicer for everyone if both armies are painted, imho.
It also discourages meta chasers that now have to put some time into painting the latest hotness they want to field.

Haha that's brilliant, as others have said good for claiming a moral victory and encouraging players to paint the grey plastic horde.

I wouldn't use the rule in a game against someone new to the hobby. But if someone still plays with grey marines a year into their entry into warhammer then sure.

It strikes me aa slippery slope. Now you get an extra +5 VP if it's painted like a GW model, +5 if you've used the accessory sprue to modify. +5 if you've got the "approved" army list, +5 if you've got the latest releases, +5 if you've got the modeled bases...

Arguing "it's now a game mechanic" because it may or may not be in the rule book is semantics. It doesn't contribute to the game in any way. LOS, modeling for advantage, proxying and such can change how a game is played and effectively change the outcome. Putting pigment in medium on a model does not, but now it can.

I can still see your Eliminators sticking out from behind that tree if they are bare, undercoated, "battle ready" or Golden Daemon entries.

It's a serious gate keeping move.

As ever, it depends.

If it’s a single, new unit in my opponent’s army, nah. We’re not all speed painters, and we all have Other Things in life. If it’s still grey after a month or so? Different feels there, depending on what I know of my opponent.

If it’s a tide of Grey Plastic? Then yes, yes I will. And I say that as a very reluctant painter!

In a tournament setting? I can see that being decided by the TO themselves.

Kayback wrote:

Arguing "it's now a game mechanic" because it may or may not be in the rule book is semantics.

you are free to ignore every rule you don't like

I don't like the new wound allocation hence I ignore it and everyone else should as well as it just slows the game down anyway (and no one should win a game because of that stupid rule)

Wouldn't enforce it on newbies or someone with a new model they want to try out, but absolutely YES if that person is one of those who is still fielding unpainted or unfinished models for months on end!

We all know a guy with 8+ armies living on sprues with 1 unit painted for each army, been collecting 15+ years. Maybe this sort of thing will help with that.

You guys know that outside of tournaments with material prizes 'Winning' is entirely in your head, right?

In a tourney? Yes. In a friendly game? No.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
You guys know that outside of tournaments with material prizes 'Winning' is entirely in your head, right?

Ssssh, that's a secret.

Also for those not in the know, and not playing one of GW's better games, AoS has the same rule on their scoring sheet and so far AoS players haven't had a problem with it.

Well here it's locally agreed already yes if both players want so basically no


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kayback wrote:
It strikes me aa slippery slope. Now you get an extra +5 VP if it's painted like a GW model, +5 if you've used the accessory sprue to modify. +5 if you've got the "approved" army list, +5 if you've got the latest releases, +5 if you've got the modeled bases...

Arguing "it's now a game mechanic" because it may or may not be in the rule book is semantics. It doesn't contribute to the game in any way. LOS, modeling for advantage, proxying and such can change how a game is played and effectively change the outcome. Putting pigment in medium on a model does not, but now it can.

I can still see your Eliminators sticking out from behind that tree if they are bare, undercoated, "battle ready" or Golden Daemon entries.

It's a serious gate keeping move.

What next. 5vp per turn you shout slogan for your army? For scenario vp's just as sensible as painting. And gw is after all about attitude

I prefer to play against grey/primed models than horribly painted ones honestly (just my opinion though) and if this is enforced at my GW store I fear it'll push people to just mass paint their models messily just to be able to play them without a handicap.

I find it really sad to see badly painted/assembled models when you consider the price of the thing. When I pay 45€ for 3 cavalry models (Serberys Raiders) I can assure you they'll be lovingly assembled, the mold lines filed off, and painted as best I can, because they're 15€ a piece. People can do whatever they want obviously, just my opinion as I said.

I'm probably just pessimistic as always and people at my store may get motivated and paint them with some care anyway.

Some very good responses in the thread both for and against. The issue is compounded by the incredible split in the votes received. If most people were for it, it would be easy to just resign oneself to it, and if most people were against it, it would be easy to think 'well, it'll probably just never come up then'. But the poll shows an almost exactly 50/50 split, which means whatever angle you take, it will often add an unnecessary element of negotiation to the game.

As far as I can see, it brings nothing but an unnecessary level of elitism to the game, and reminds me of the awful AoS rules that initially came out, like '+1 to hit if you have a bigger beard' and 'if you stand on one leg you can reroll a dice' or whatever. This is simultaneously better, as it's not as silly/trivial and does encourage more painted armies, but also worse, as it's baked into the core rules rather than an individual army, and ultimately it's still bringing a non-tactical element into the game but rewarding it the same way as a tactical decision.

The fact that it has people contorting in knots and basically saying 'well who cares *what* the rules are anyway, it's just a silly old game at the end of the day' just shows, to me, what a bad rule this is.

I find it amusing that so many are against painting their minis but nobody cares about the pay to win part of the game.

I never field unpainted miniatures and find it annoying playing against unpainted or proxy armies.

Miniature games are about the visual impact after all, if you cant be bothered to paint there are lots of other games instead.

I'm all for painted armies, and generally won't play against grey plastic, but...this seems like a storm in a teacup to me.

If you are playing in a tournament, then you either accept their rules in advance or don't play. If you are playing casually, and you win by 5 points with an unpainted army, are you really going to care about your opponent declaring victory because their army is painted? Who gives a feth.

So seriously, whats different about this rule than any of the major tournaments saying you have to have a painted army to even attend?

Paint your mini's guys, or get someone else to paint them.

Yes, but only if you agree that being painted BETTER than Battle Ready standard also loses you the points.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
So seriously, whats different about this rule than any of the major tournaments saying you have to have a painted army to even attend?

Paint your mini's guys, or get someone else to paint them.

Well for starters people that don't play tournaments don't care about tournament rules. The majority of people play Matched Play in gaming stores with friends or pick up games, tournaments are the minority.

I paint my minis, but it takes me 5h/model approximately to attain a standard I find beautiful, and I don't always have the motivation to paint. I'm in mainly for the gaming and the lore, not the painting aspect of the hobby.

I agree that since it's already a bespoke rule for many tournament, shouldn't be surprising it's been added to an edition where GW supposedly related with tournament players.

But even in a casual environment, if you win by 4 points thanks to the 10 additional point for painting... who cares? Your opponent know he/she has win on the battlefield, but lost because he/she should have painted his/her army... where is the issue? Are you really THAT bad at sportsmanship that such a defeat is unbearable?

But I am honestly baffled and surprised by the knee jerk reaction here. If you think that 10% of the game don't deserve to be determine by the physical models.... well, why don't you play with cutout paper figures?
Basically free, they're easier to transport and don't impact the gameplay at all (if you print a front/rear and a sides paper and cross them, they have the same volume).

tneva82 wrote:
What next. 5vp per turn you shout slogan for your army? For scenario vp's just as sensible as painting. And gw is after all about attitude

When performing the "plant banner" action, CSM players can earn an extra point by screeching "WE CAPTURED IT FOR CHAOS".

I will freely admit that I'm not really into painting - especially when it comes to painting hordes of near-identical infantry. However, I have enjoyed painting most of the conversions I've made.

Let me give you a few examples:



I don't claim that any of the above have been painted exceptionally well (I fear I'm just not a great painter in general). However, I hope you'll at least take me at my word when I say that I spent a great deal of time and effort painting each of them to the best of my ability.

Why do I bring this up?

Because as far as 'Battle Ready' is concerned, each of these models is no better than grey plastic. Why? Because I haven't painted their bases. But I specifically don't paint bases because I find that they almost always look out of place, regardless (since the base rarely ever matches the colour/texture of the table). Not only that but there isn't even an exception given for transparent bases. I thought the entire point of having transparent bases was so that they'd almost blend in with the table and create the illusion of the model hovering in the air?

Anyway, the point I'm getting at is that this rule does not encourage me to paint my army. If anything, it does the opposite - because if I'm being penalised even for models that I've spent hours and hours converting and painting, why should I even bother with anything else?

/rant

 Blackie wrote:
Grey plastic or black primer aren't the best looking miniatures but many tournaments armies that have models painted in 3 colours and in a hurry just to be in time to attend the event are way worse. I'm seeing lots of this gak unfortunately.

Heavy proxying, even if the models are golden damon level of painting, are way more annoying IMHO.

Good that I attended the last tournament ten years ago. And no, I won't visit another in the future as well.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
What next. 5vp per turn you shout slogan for your army? For scenario vp's just as sensible as painting. And gw is after all about attitude

When performing the "plant banner" action, CSM players can earn an extra point by screeching "WE CAPTURED IT FOR CHAOS".

And if you kill one of the g.i. Joe tanks you can shout at your enemy that he Hides in "metawl bawkses" and is a fool !

 Aenar wrote:
Love it.
It takes time and effort but the gaming experience is nicer for everyone if both armies are painted, imho.
It also discourages meta chasers that now have to put some time into painting the latest hotness they want to field.

Hey, you read my mind.


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Dudeface wrote:
We all know a guy with 8+ armies living on sprues with 1 unit painted for each army, been collecting 15+ years. Maybe this sort of thing will help with that.

Nope, these are hopeless cases.

I know one guy that was too lazy to paint a SINGLE Rumbleslam mini in order to play the game. Even after six months, he was unable to undercoat the mini properly because he didn't read the instruction to wash it in the first place.

 kodos wrote:

I don't like the new wound allocation hence I ignore it and everyone else should as well as it just slows the game down anyway (and no one should win a game because of that stupid rule)

Your hyperbolic strawman is idiotic. That is, as I clearly indicated, a game mechanic that can change the outcome of core rules used for play. Basically you want to play a different game as opposed to playing the game without painting.

How, and I mean exactly with reference to dice rolls and saving throws and the like, does a layer of pigment change the game?

It doesn't.

It's free VP for doing something NOT DIRECTLY RELATED TO THE TABLETOP ACTIVITIES. It's like saying you can buy VP tokens from GW to use in your next battle.

I personally (probably) won't ever be subject to that rule as modeling and painting are a bigger part of the hobby in my world so I doubt I'll ever be fielding an unpainted army but I do have some units that probably won't pass muster if I fielded them now. But the FYGM attitude and gatekeeper aspect of it isn't conducive to growing the game.

"Hey noob. Well done you played a great first game. But my army is painted and your guys aren't based, so I win"

ccs wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Just starting out? Not had my spare time lately? Nah, of course I'm not going to hold you to that.
Had those models for years, and you play with them every time we game? Yeah, I'm going to have expected you to at least try and paint by now.

What can I say, I'm a busy guy....

Busy enough that you can play, but not spray and slap on a layer of contrast? You're telling me that you couldn't have done that in the years I've known those hypothetical models to be unpainted? Nope, I'm taking those 10 points.

ERJAK wrote:Blind people have friends who can assemble stuff.

Blind people have friends who can paint stuff.

Or even easier can buy Ebay prebuilt castoffs just to use.

Or buy pre-painted models, or commission someone to paint them to a BR standard. For slapping on a layer of contrast and a base, I'd do it for pittance.

Same with people missing appendages or with diseases like parkinsons.

They'd have the same difficulties with assembling. Why is assembling your models seen as normal and expected, but painting them is ableist?

You're incredibly ableist.

But assembling isn't?

H.B.M.C. wrote:Well the answer to that is the same one I always give: Everyone. Everyone is keeping score.

It's like when someone says "I don't play to win!". Yes you do. Everyone does. No one plays to lose. No one plays to draw.

Sorry bud, but you're wrong.
Just because you can't comprehend the idea of someone playing without winning being their goal doesn't mean I can't.

Everyone plays the game with the intention of winning. That doesn't mean that you're some ultra-list WAAC nutbar, but no one sits across from their opponent and goes "I hope I lose!" or "I can't wait to draw!!!".

It's less that, and more a case of "I don't care what happens, as long as it's a fun game."
But obviously, that's beyond you. And you know what, you're welcome to your way of thinking and why you play! Good for you! Just don't act like it's the only way.

H.B.M.C. wrote:But you don't win a game just because you brought the miniatures.

No, you're just not allowed to play, apparently. Would you prefer if the new rules said "you MUST play with Battle Ready painted models" instead?
The *real* injustice is how I need to play with models, surely - what if I don't want to build my models? Why am I being penalised for not building them?

AdmiralHalsey wrote:You guys know that outside of tournaments with material prizes 'Winning' is entirely in your head, right?

Shock! Horror!

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Exactly right, if we are being so demanding of people in the core rules, why don't we demand they wysiwyg or lose 10 points ? Demand they use the proper paint schemes if they are an exact group ? Are those blue Iron Hands ? - 10 points. Force proper army game play. " Are those Orks not charging me ? They can, that isn't very Orky " - 10 points.

I get they want painted models, those are great games but once you start down the road of immersion, and feel and this is the only right way to play this already very hard to get new players in hobby because its so time and money expensive. Well it doesn't do much for the health of the game.

It's been my experience that people who fully paint their army already do most of those things. I'm not sure this works out as intended.

I've found that focusing on the barriers and making plans as a community to get around them help resolve issues with new player induction. I haven't had a whole lot of problems getting new players to paint their stuff, because someone in the group will sit down with them and help them or paint along side them. The biggest detractors of this rule are the people who, in my community, love the look but don't want put in the effort. They own like 15 armies but can't be bothered to put a drop of paint on a model.

Even now in our local group chats, the same people who have tons of stuff and it's all unpainted are bitching up a storm, and the rest of us, is including the new players, are like "nah, it'll be fine".

We have people threatening to sell out of the game over this, and my only thought is, if this is the straw that broke the camel's back, then you probably got into the wrong hobby. Maybe a CCG or a prepainted minis game is more your speed.

Top fething kek they made this an actual rule. Hilarious.