Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Kithail wrote:

 Pyroalchi wrote:
On a more general "mechanics" point: I'm not really a fan of a bineric "10 points or non" and I have the impression I'm not alone with that.
An easy fix (that would also adress the "but I only have 1 model unpainted!" issue) would be something like:
"For every 10% of the armies models that is painted to battle ready standards, you receive 1 VP".
=> a fully painted army vs. a grey plastic horde would still be +10 VP for the first one
=> an almost complete army with only up to 10% unfinished modles would loose out only 1 VP. I think that should mostly be acceptable.

On an additional note I personally would also advocate for "Bases are considered battle ready if they are:
a) transparent
b) one clean color without paint spots (so the standard black, but at least take care that it doesn't look dirty
c) painted/textured etc.

Dude honestly I think you nailed it. I honestly think you did a /thread on this one. I agree you fixed the issue.

He literally Made the rule pretty much somewhat workable .

Impressive

Purifying Tempest wrote:

In terms of 40K: put on lore videos while painting, learn more about your army. Talk with your friends about lore on hobby night. Where did this generic headquarters come from? Why did he get a plasma pistol? All sorts of things you can be doing while getting some quality one-on-one time with those models. All of it is healthy for the players and the hobby. And I'm sure the tip-of-the-top best players who meta chase and commission won't care... but this is the average player. Engage with your army a little more outside of the glue phase, see if that excites you a little more.

Not everyone has the luxury to just do that. It’s why for a lot of people do find the difference parts of the hobby disconnected.

Apple fox wrote:

Purifying Tempest wrote:

In terms of 40K: put on lore videos while painting, learn more about your army. Talk with your friends about lore on hobby night. Where did this generic headquarters come from? Why did he get a plasma pistol? All sorts of things you can be doing while getting some quality one-on-one time with those models. All of it is healthy for the players and the hobby. And I'm sure the tip-of-the-top best players who meta chase and commission won't care... but this is the average player. Engage with your army a little more outside of the glue phase, see if that excites you a little more.

Not everyone has the luxury to just do that. It’s why for a lot of people do find the difference parts of the hobby disconnected.

Got time for 12 hour events (plus travel), assembly, fussing over the internet on forums? As has been said before: we have a lot of free time, and lord knows no one on this forum is so strapped for time that they cannot carve out 30 minutes here and there to do a little extra work. The fact that you have an assembled army and time to go play games is testimony to that. Besides, if you are absolutely time strapped (and if you are, you probably shouldn't be here arguing me now), then just acknowledge that when you walk into an organized event... you have a CHANCE to be down 10 VP each game. Remember, there is a combination - 1) you have to not have a battle ready army, and 2) your opponent does. This is something you know going into the event. It is right there in the book in text.

Do I think people are going to shame you for your lack of time and penalize you in pick-up games? Probably not, people are overwhelmingly reasonable when you take the keyboard away. I may jab at you for tossing away hours to play at the store, but not having a bit of time to slap some paint on those models. But it would be good-natured and with the intention of trying to encourage you to make some progress. Ultimately, though, I don't care about the results of friendly games (outside of "did we have fun?"), the W or the L is literally meaningless. I'm sure an overwhelming number of players would fall into this category. I got a few hours away from my kids, I wanna spend it having fun... because I already won by getting away from the tedium of my life for a little to enjoy playing with my plastic army men.

As for the TLOS of argument... man... the grey tide can blend into each other, nothing, the background, terrain... they can be deceptively hard to spot. Painted models... while they CAN be tricky, they're usually decently easier to pick out unless painted to explicitly blend into that table (which is honestly kinda cool). I mean, arguments go every way. And I don't see people invoking this rule game-to-game to be jerks to each other, if they do... let them, let them weed themselves out. I'm still standing firm on it is an improvement from the uneven and malleable application of "painting standards" that existed from event-to-event before. There is a universal understanding of what should be considered "minimal effort" to get those extra VP at events. The worst part about a lot of attitudes here is that it isn't even the minimal standard to participate... we're literally making this stink over winning more.

I think we can all agree that a game where both armies and the terrain were Golden Daemon standard would be super cool. That's not a reality for the average Joe though.

As long as the model is assembled, and given a base coat (one spray-on layer with good coverage) it's good enough for me. I'd prefer at least a couple more colors and detail though.

As for the base, I'm one of those guys that actually likes a black base for many of my figures. I just view bases as "negative space". Being able to clearly see a black base from across the table does have advantages, and seeing a grassy green base on a desert/snow themed table always seems a bit silly to me. I take time with my figures, but usually leave the base blank. If I ever start getting flack for it, I think I might just glue a single piece of aquarium gravel to each base, as that would technically count.

 auticus wrote:
I've tried introducing versions of that rule in my past campaigns and was lit on fire (metaphorically) and rode out of the store lol. That its now an official rule tickles me.

The best part is when those same people circle back and tell you what a great move it was. Hilarious.

Could you imagine the replies if I posted the 2nd 8th Marine Codex changes to Proposed rules in June of last year? Horrible! Way way too far dude!

Official release: Amazing! Marines feel like Marines now!

Yep thats pretty much a fan base being a fan base.

It essentially boils down to only the rules devs should be making rules changes (to those people). Its not really the rule in question that you are proposing to change as it is that you aren't one of the gw rules devs.

And people buy armies based off of how to exploit the current official rules so any changes to the rules via houseruling is something that impacts their army listbuilding they spent money on.

If you wanna use his rules in competitive 40k, that one thing, tournaments have been that way for years, making t hard to play for some people.

If you want to use this rule in narritive Crusade stuff, that's more problematic. Different feeling entirely.

Purifying Tempest wrote:

Apple fox wrote:

Purifying Tempest wrote:

In terms of 40K: put on lore videos while painting, learn more about your army. Talk with your friends about lore on hobby night. Where did this generic headquarters come from? Why did he get a plasma pistol? All sorts of things you can be doing while getting some quality one-on-one time with those models. All of it is healthy for the players and the hobby. And I'm sure the tip-of-the-top best players who meta chase and commission won't care... but this is the average player. Engage with your army a little more outside of the glue phase, see if that excites you a little more.

Not everyone has the luxury to just do that. It’s why for a lot of people do find the difference parts of the hobby disconnected.

Got time for 12 hour events (plus travel), assembly, fussing over the internet on forums? As has been said before: we have a lot of free time, and lord knows no one on this forum is so strapped for time that they cannot carve out 30 minutes here and there to do a little extra work. The fact that you have an assembled army and time to go play games is testimony to that. Besides, if you are absolutely time strapped (and if you are, you probably shouldn't be here arguing me now), then just acknowledge that when you walk into an organized event... you have a CHANCE to be down 10 VP each game. Remember, there is a combination - 1) you have to not have a battle ready army, and 2) your opponent does. This is something you know going into the event. It is right there in the book in text.

Do I think people are going to shame you for your lack of time and penalize you in pick-up games? Probably not, people are overwhelmingly reasonable when you take the keyboard away. I may jab at you for tossing away hours to play at the store, but not having a bit of time to slap some paint on those models. But it would be good-natured and with the intention of trying to encourage you to make some progress. Ultimately, though, I don't care about the results of friendly games (outside of "did we have fun?"), the W or the L is literally meaningless. I'm sure an overwhelming number of players would fall into this category. I got a few hours away from my kids, I wanna spend it having fun... because I already won by getting away from the tedium of my life for a little to enjoy playing with my plastic army men.

As for the TLOS of argument... man... the grey tide can blend into each other, nothing, the background, terrain... they can be deceptively hard to spot. Painted models... while they CAN be tricky, they're usually decently easier to pick out unless painted to explicitly blend into that table (which is honestly kinda cool). I mean, arguments go every way. And I don't see people invoking this rule game-to-game to be jerks to each other, if they do... let them, let them weed themselves out. I'm still standing firm on it is an improvement from the uneven and malleable application of "painting standards" that existed from event-to-event before. There is a universal understanding of what should be considered "minimal effort" to get those extra VP at events. The worst part about a lot of attitudes here is that it isn't even the minimal standard to participate... we're literally making this stink over winning more.

I guess you have not fully follow the thread, first I don’t play in many events. I cannot. But this is exactly why this rule sucks, you made a lot of assumptions about my situation.
When I go to a game, I want to enjoy it as well. It’s a mental exercise for me, if they don’t want to play against unpainted army that’s fine, but a negotiations over this rule is not worth the time so limited to me to play and I don’t really need the reminder of why I cannot paint constantly.

Apple fox wrote:
[
I guess you have not fully follow the thread, first I don’t play in many events. I cannot. But this is exactly why this rule sucks, you made a lot of assumptions about my situation.
When I go to a game, I want to enjoy it as well. It’s a mental exercise for me, if they don’t want to play against unpainted army that’s fine, but a negotiations over this rule is not worth the time so limited to me to play and I don’t really need the reminder of why I cannot paint constantly.

All I hear is more excuses. You had the time to go and purchase. You had time to research units and assemble an army. Now all of a sudden you don't have any more time at all? Yet you have time to argue keyboard warriors on the internet?

This is my point. If you're in this hobby at all, and this is a collective you, you all. You have a lot of disposable resources: time and money most prominently. I wouldn't spend NEARLY as much on this hobby if I didn't have the time to invest in it. If I was truly living a life 16 up and 8 down (though, in the service I've lived 20 up 4 down on days many a times), and every one of those hours was slammed full of responsibility... I wouldn't be investing in a leisure game and finding time to play.

That's okay, I was taught just how much time I waste... real life experience given to me by the federal government. When they took it all away and kept me busy for 16-20 hours a day, lol, yeah. Trust me, I didn't 40K during that time. I didn't buy models. I simply existed until it was over.

Again, I am not advocating shaming people with the rule. The best part of the rulebook is that I am able to govern myself enough to determine what is good and what is bad, what is fun and what is not, what adds to my game and what doesn't. Then I can make decisions based on that. Is it worth me fighting some kid with a start collecting box (or any new army) at a local store for +10 bullying points? Absolutely not. FWIW: if I understood your plight and accepted that you couldn't find reasonable time to do any hobbying and genuinely put your free time in trying to play with the thousands of dollars in plastic you've bought over the years... I wouldn't accept +10VP in that game. I'm not interested in digging on people and being the toughest guy in a room of nerds playing with plastic.

Additionally, it takes the whole of 10 seconds to ask "+10 VP for painting active in this battle?" and receiving an answer. You don't have 10 seconds to communicate with your table-mate? Geez, that sounds like a bit of a stiff table already. If you answer "no", well, okay then. Not like the outcome of our game is going to have serious life consequences for either of us. It is literally the exact same contract as using proxies, or asking to run plasma guns as meltaguns to test out something new. By the rules, that's a no-no. But we suspend it all the time for our friends in the gaming space because we'd like to continue to have friends... and sometimes that means taking your boot off their necks and letting them breathe a little. That also means that if you got a guy who everyone knows is sandbagging on painting and just meta-chasing, buying new armies, and investing all sorts of resources (time and money, again) into getting it on the table to throttle his next victim... well, maybe it is worth some "tough love" and pulling out the rule. He's been playing for years and has never painted a model and all he does is shame the rest of us pleebs for playing our named regiments and coming up with cool stories for our named "generic" HQs. Like any rule, there is a time to strictly enforce it... and a time to entirely ignore it. Most of the time it is just using your best judgment on "does this really mean enough to me to give this guy a bad time?"

And back onto the time thing, again. You're right, I don't understand your position in life, but I can gather some information...

1) you're participating in a rather lengthy discussion thread on a niche wargamming site (the amount of time I've dumped into this thread alone has been ridiculous)
2) you're playing warhammer 40k, so I can only assume you have an army... probably unpainted, but most likely assembled
3) you have to choose between playing your mates rarely, or any number of other things to do with your narrow allotment of free time

All of these things tell me: you do indeed have free time, but maybe some issues figuring out what to do with it to make efficient use of it and achieve goals.

It isn't a dig on you. It is probably one of the most common problems all people have. Imagine what I could have done with my life instead of contributing to a discussion about painting little minis? Meanwhile, my cathedral scenery piece is still missing paint. I still have unassembled models waiting for me to put together and paint (in fairness, still waiting on 30 bases to arrive in the mail). All people could probably make improvements on the efficient use of their time, I'm sure some are way better, but continual improvement is actually a thing that proves it can be made better.

 Crimson wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Then that player needs to redo their army. I construct my army to the point level and always have. All the players I have met would laugh at you wanting to score one more upgrade in your army via "please it's only one point over!"

One point over can either be a Plasma Gun or a whole Custodes to meet the minimum squad requirement! If the upgrade was that important you should've been more careful at list construction.

Cool. Then you can apply the same logic to the one unpainted model. Problem solved.

So either the rule is okay or it isn't. It's not "negotiable" in the same way a Stompa for 1 point is not "negotiable".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

JNAProductions wrote:You've yet to provide any kind of real answer about why people should be FORCED to mix the two aspects of the hobby.

Why should I be FORCED to mix the assembly and playing aspects of the hobby? At least if I don't paint my models, I can still play, even if I lose out on some VPs. If I don't assemble my models? I also don't gain any VPs, and my opponents will be likely even more opposed to my unassembled units.

Why should I be forced to mix aspects when all I want is to play the game and get a strategic win?

JNAProductions wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Also, the poll is currently 207 for to 177 against.

There's a slim majority who say they'll use the rule.

What do you think the poll would look like if I made a poll asking "Will you use the rule that Plasma weapons kill the bearer on a 1?"

Red herring is my favourite food too.

Why is this rule negotiable, but others aren't?

All rules are negotiable. Don't like how plasma instant kills on a 1? Discuss with your opponent. Don't like how XYZ rule functions? Discuss with your opponent.
When I play, I usually start things off by saying how I'm not using Chapter Tactics on my Space Marines, and if they're also playing Marines, invite them to do the same.

Use your initiative. Don't rely on the rules for everything.

AKA do GW's job for them! Hell you don't even need rules! Just go pewpew and best pewpew noises wins!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So either the rule is okay or it isn't. It's not "negotiable" in the same way a Stompa for 1 point is not "negotiable".!

Why you switched a sensible example to an absurd one?. Stompa for one point probably isn't negotiable, going couple of points over the point limit might be with some people, it certainly would be with me. And same way 'one model unpainted' would be. If you feel neither is negotiable, that's your right.

In any case, I'm not sure what your point is, I feel I'm being pretty consistent with my stance here.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
All rules are negotiable. Don't like how plasma instant kills on a 1? Discuss with your opponent. Don't like how XYZ rule functions? Discuss with your opponent.
When I play, I usually start things off by saying how I'm not using Chapter Tactics on my Space Marines, and if they're also playing Marines, invite them to do the same.

Use your initiative. Don't rely on the rules for everything.

AKA do GW's job for them! Hell you don't even need rules! Just go pewpew and best pewpew noises wins!

Unironically yes. If you and your opponent want to play like that and would enjoy that more? Go for it. Bonus Command Points for acting "in character"? I'd play that. You've modelled your guy with a weapon they can't normally have? Tack on an extra PL, and we're golden.

Loosen up. Let GW's rules act as a guideline, and feel free to consider modifying and ignoring features if you and your opponent want to. Who cares about what everyone else does? All that matters is the people on the table.

 Crimson wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So either the rule is okay or it isn't. It's not "negotiable" in the same way a Stompa for 1 point is not "negotiable".!

Why you switched a sensible example to an absurd one?. Stompa for one point probably isn't negotiable, going couple of points over the point limit might be with some people, it certainly would be with me. And same way 'one model unpainted' would be. If you feel neither is negotiable, that's your right.

In any case, I'm not sure what your point is, I feel I'm being pretty consistent with my stance here.

The point is 1 point over is a whole upgrade or a whole unit. You don't toss out rules because you feel like it. You either accept the rules and whatever Errata is needed, or you know that the rules are bad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
All rules are negotiable. Don't like how plasma instant kills on a 1? Discuss with your opponent. Don't like how XYZ rule functions? Discuss with your opponent.
When I play, I usually start things off by saying how I'm not using Chapter Tactics on my Space Marines, and if they're also playing Marines, invite them to do the same.

Use your initiative. Don't rely on the rules for everything.

AKA do GW's job for them! Hell you don't even need rules! Just go pewpew and best pewpew noises wins!

Unironically yes. If you and your opponent want to play like that and would enjoy that more? Go for it. Bonus Command Points for acting "in character"? I'd play that. You've modelled your guy with a weapon they can't normally have? Tack on an extra PL, and we're golden.

Loosen up. Let GW's rules act as a guideline, and feel free to consider modifying and ignoring features if you and your opponent want to. Who cares about what everyone else does? All that matters is the people on the table.

Then you don't need to pay $60+ for rules.

I don't think a certain crowd realizes that they are really really surprised about how much people care about painting and how closeminded can they be about *people having their armies painted*, seeing it as a petty thing, and fail to see how even more petty are they about their 10VPs per game. It is as petty as the other side.

"Why would you care so much about my minis painted in a random pickup game?", (which is valid) is perfectly comparable to "Why would you care so much about your 10VPs (that might not change anything about the score anyway) in a random pickup game?". It is equally petty.

As discussed, in organized events and tournaments you can't even sit and play with your greytide, so the remaining scenarios are:

1.- You are playing with a close friend/family member in your garage/shed. As stated, noone is going to appear out of thin air and smack you with the rule for your greytide. Also, more than likely there are two greytides at that table anyway. We can discard this scenario.

2.- Random, casual pick up game at a store or similar venue, against a stranger, because yes, with a friend, you have or should have reached an agreement about this before reaching this point. And this scenario is where people gets flimsy, me included. If a stranger really care about the paint status of your minis and seems weird, then why are you so pissed about your VPs? Are you so worried to demonstrate your magnificent tactical acumen in a game heavily governed by random chance that you are afraid to lose by a slight margin to a stranger only in the case of a close draw because honestly, he DID commit more effort into it than you did? If that's the case, I don't think you are doing that game to have fun. You are there to WAAC. And if you are so worried about WAAC in a game, then well, you should start trying to pour more effort into it. Like painting your minis to a minimal standard.

Why would I claim the 10 VPs? Because I did make a certain effort that you did not, (and yes, I am not talking about minis in progress, a new just purchased unit, the first game of a guy that bought his start collecting three days ago, black bases, or a couple unpainted models. I am talking about full or close full greytides here, of the guy that open his suit case and says "well I wonder if I use my 3 thousand Greytide Wardens marines, my 2.5k of Greytide Dinasty necrons, or 4k of Greytide hive fleet today" so exclude other cases). "Well I don't have time". I work around 50 a week, more during the summer, have a family, a business, the whole shebang. I do not have time neither. If you don't have time, then maybe you can find the money. You can't find the money? honestly if you are truly financially challenged this is the wrooong hobby for you. It is expensive, really expensive, and for everyone involved, I have a family to provide for as well. Now, if you want to play with poker chips, shoeboxes and coins, more power to you, however, I don't think you will cross paths with people with full painted armies often. Have fun with your friends using proxies, noone again is going to materialize in your living room to smack you with the rule and "steal your VPs". You don't have the skills? Noone is asking you Golden Daemon standards, you can achieve battle ready for a mini in less than 1 hour, I think. And now with contrasts and the current minis instead of the lead nightmares of the past, never easier to get satisfying results with minimal effort. (And yes, if you are visually impaired, or have....tremors, or plenty of other conditions that prevent you from painting, I suggest you ask for help, not medical help, but help in painting your minis, in every group and community and store there will be someone willing to help in my experience. And if that is somehow not possible, then well ok, you are an exception and can be treated as such. But you are a rare exceptional case at it).

In any case, noone is refusing to play against you, you are just paying a small toll, a very small one, for playing dedicating significantly less effort, (and resources as well, all those paints and brushes and tools and what not cost money), than the person sharing the table with you.

And yes, it maybe sounds elitist, but the first miniature game I played was Battlefleet Gothic and back then, unpainted models had a STAT penalty. And when I started I found it natural, and it motivated me to paint my fleet entirely, instead of complaining about so much about perceived injustice. So I have been into the other side as well, and thought of it as a motivation and not a burden. Maybe it is a matter of perspective.

Edited by moderator: Rule Number One is Be Polite.

I bet Kithail thinks Counts-As is terrible too.

I'm an awful painter, but I have no real problem with this honestly.

You should absolutely be able to house rule.

So let's rewind to before this rule so you can all house rule punishing your opponent for not having a fully painted army.

Because it's fine right?

I didn't see anyone suggesting this should exist before GW codified it as a rule, but are all very keen to defend something you didn't need to the hilt.


It is very different to beg to not be punished for not having time to finish your army before playing, than it is to suggest to someone they SHOULD be.

There is a very unhealthy power dynamic in the rule and the suggestions around people negotiating using it.

In the end of course the wealthiest players will be most advantaged whether because they have the money to pay for someone else to paint their army, or are wealthy enough to have spare time to do it.


There is a real streak of elitism in this conversation and if nothing else its shown how people really feel about their opponent. Any rulee that emboldens that kind of behaviour is a bad rule regardless of its intentions. Now it's 'legal' and sanctioned to judge people on their painting. There's now a pretty strong implication of superiority baked in.

Purifying Tempest wrote:

Apple fox wrote:
[
I guess you have not fully follow the thread, first I don’t play in many events. I cannot. But this is exactly why this rule sucks, you made a lot of assumptions about my situation.
When I go to a game, I want to enjoy it as well. It’s a mental exercise for me, if they don’t want to play against unpainted army that’s fine, but a negotiations over this rule is not worth the time so limited to me to play and I don’t really need the reminder of why I cannot paint constantly.

All I hear is more excuses. You had the time to go and purchase. You had time to research units and assemble an army. Now all of a sudden you don't have any more time at all? Yet you have time to argue keyboard warriors on the internet?

This is my point. If you're in this hobby at all, and this is a collective you, you all. You have a lot of disposable resources: time and money most prominently. I wouldn't spend NEARLY as much on this hobby if I didn't have the time to invest in it. If I was truly living a life 16 up and 8 down (though, in the service I've lived 20 up 4 down on days many a times), and every one of those hours was slammed full of responsibility... I wouldn't be investing in a leisure game and finding time to play.

That's okay, I was taught just how much time I waste... real life experience given to me by the federal government. When they took it all away and kept me busy for 16-20 hours a day, lol, yeah. Trust me, I didn't 40K during that time. I didn't buy models. I simply existed until it was over.

Again, I am not advocating shaming people with the rule. The best part of the rulebook is that I am able to govern myself enough to determine what is good and what is bad, what is fun and what is not, what adds to my game and what doesn't. Then I can make decisions based on that. Is it worth me fighting some kid with a start collecting box (or any new army) at a local store for +10 bullying points? Absolutely not. FWIW: if I understood your plight and accepted that you couldn't find reasonable time to do any hobbying and genuinely put your free time in trying to play with the thousands of dollars in plastic you've bought over the years... I wouldn't accept +10VP in that game. I'm not interested in digging on people and being the toughest guy in a room of nerds playing with plastic.

Additionally, it takes the whole of 10 seconds to ask "+10 VP for painting active in this battle?" and receiving an answer. You don't have 10 seconds to communicate with your table-mate? Geez, that sounds like a bit of a stiff table already. If you answer "no", well, okay then. Not like the outcome of our game is going to have serious life consequences for either of us. It is literally the exact same contract as using proxies, or asking to run plasma guns as meltaguns to test out something new. By the rules, that's a no-no. But we suspend it all the time for our friends in the gaming space because we'd like to continue to have friends... and sometimes that means taking your boot off their necks and letting them breathe a little. That also means that if you got a guy who everyone knows is sandbagging on painting and just meta-chasing, buying new armies, and investing all sorts of resources (time and money, again) into getting it on the table to throttle his next victim... well, maybe it is worth some "tough love" and pulling out the rule. He's been playing for years and has never painted a model and all he does is shame the rest of us pleebs for playing our named regiments and coming up with cool stories for our named "generic" HQs. Like any rule, there is a time to strictly enforce it... and a time to entirely ignore it. Most of the time it is just using your best judgment on "does this really mean enough to me to give this guy a bad time?"

And back onto the time thing, again. You're right, I don't understand your position in life, but I can gather some information...

1) you're participating in a rather lengthy discussion thread on a niche wargamming site (the amount of time I've dumped into this thread alone has been ridiculous)
2) you're playing warhammer 40k, so I can only assume you have an army... probably unpainted, but most likely assembled
3) you have to choose between playing your mates rarely, or any number of other things to do with your narrow allotment of free time

All of these things tell me: you do indeed have free time, but maybe some issues figuring out what to do with it to make efficient use of it and achieve goals.

It isn't a dig on you. It is probably one of the most common problems all people have. Imagine what I could have done with my life instead of contributing to a discussion about painting little minis? Meanwhile, my cathedral scenery piece is still missing paint. I still have unassembled models waiting for me to put together and paint (in fairness, still waiting on 30 bases to arrive in the mail). All people could probably make improvements on the efficient use of their time, I'm sure some are way better, but continual improvement is actually a thing that proves it can be made better.

And this is exactly why it's a gatekeeping rule. You literally are assuming how people's lives work and dictating to them what you think they should be doing with their time to be allowed into the game.

You literally have no idea whats going on in other people's lives or what they've had to do to attend the game being played.

In another sport I play in the exact same mentality has decided that those who can do training 5x per week and attend matches ever weekend are more dedicated than those who practice every so often and attend a couple matches a year and they should get more say at AGMs and such. You just have to make the time. Ignoring that some people need to pull extra hours or shifts, have things like housework to do, need to spend time with their kids and family and yes, even have other hobbies to do. You may simply write that off as "excuses" which is your prerogative, as they are excuses, but they are also valid. In that same vein I still managed to win silver in Africa Champs last year, so the level of "dedication" doesn't mean much. And I can tell you I'd be pissed if they decided that because my equipment was factory the guy with the fancy paint job gets +10 points.

Painting takes time and money and skill. Not everyone has those in abundance. Demanding that I spend extra hours and extra money to do something which does not impact the game is wrong. Don't like playing grey tides? Don't.

The other problem is RAW it is a bad rule. Too many people have said "use common sense" which shows it's a bad rule. As we don't have any standard to dictate what's battle ready outside of the Warhammer Community page, which lists bases being painted, then RAW anyone with naked bases fails, even with multi culoured, shaded, free hand insignia individualized models. RAW you can claim 10+ if you've based, contrasted and detailed. The rulebook will need to flesh this out otherwise it is open to interpretation and abuse. I shall be interested to see what the full rulebook says.

 Kithail wrote:
I don't think a certain crowd realizes that they are really really surprised about how much people care about painting and how closeminded can they be about *people having their armies painted*, seeing it as a petty thing, and fail to see how even more petty are they about their 10VPs per game. It is as petty as the other side.

"Why would you care so much about my minis painted in a random pickup game?", (which is valid) is perfectly comparable to "Why would you care so much about your 10VPs (that might not change anything about the score anyway) in a random pickup game?". It is equally petty.

As discussed, in organized events and tournaments you can't even sit and play with your greytide, so the remaining scenarios are:

1.- You are playing with a close friend/family member in your garage/shed. As stated, noone is going to appear out of thin air and smack you with the rule for your greytide. Also, more than likely there are two greytides at that table anyway. We can discard this scenario.

2.- Random, casual pick up game at a store or similar venue, against a stranger, because yes, with a friend, you have or should have reached an agreement about this before reaching this point. And this scenario is where people gets flimsy, me included. If a stranger really care about the paint status of your minis and seems weird, then why are you so pissed about your VPs? Are you so worried to demonstrate your magnificent tactical acumen in a game heavily governed by random chance that you are afraid to lose by a slight margin to a stranger only in the case of a close draw because honestly, he DID commit more effort into it than you did? If that's the case, I don't think you are doing that game to have fun. You are there to WAAC. And if you are so worried about WAAC in a game, then well, you should start trying to pour more effort into it. Like painting your minis to a minimal standard.

Why would I claim the 10 VPs? Because I did make a certain effort that you did not, (and yes, I am not talking about minis in progress, a new just purchased unit, the first game of a guy that bought his start collecting three days ago, black bases, or a couple unpainted models. I am talking about full or close full greytides here, of the guy that open his suit case and says "well I wonder if I use my 3 thousand Greytide Wardens marines, my 2.5k of Greytide Dinasty necrons, or 4k of Greytide hive fleet today" so exclude other cases). "Well I don't have time". I work around 50 a week, more during the summer, have a family, a business, the whole shebang. I do not have time neither. If you don't have time, then maybe you can find the money. You can't find the money? honestly if you are truly financially challenged this is the wrooong hobby for you. It is expensive, really expensive, and for everyone involved, I have a family to provide for as well. Now, if you want to play with poker chips, shoeboxes and coins, more power to you, however, I don't think you will cross paths with people with full painted armies often. Have fun with your friends using proxies, noone again is going to materialize in your living room to smack you with the rule and "steal your VPs". You don't have the skills? Noone is asking you Golden Daemon standards, you can achieve battle ready for a mini in less than 1 hour, I think. And now with contrasts and the current minis instead of the lead nightmares of the past, never easier to get satisfying results with minimal effort. (And yes, if you are visually impaired, or have....tremors, or plenty of other conditions that prevent you from painting, I suggest you ask for help, not medical help, but help in painting your minis, in every group and community and store there will be someone willing to help in my experience. And if that is somehow not possible, then well ok, you are an exception and can be treated as such. But you are a rare exceptional case at it).

In any case, noone is refusing to play against you, you are just paying a small toll, a very small one, for playing dedicating significantly less effort, (and resources as well, all those paints and brushes and tools and what not cost money), than the person sharing the table with you.

And yes, it maybe sounds elitist, but the first miniature game I played was Battlefleet Gothic and back then, unpainted models had a STAT penalty. And when I started I found it natural, and it motivated me to paint my fleet entirely, instead of complaining about so much about perceived injustice. So I have been into the other side as well, and thought of it as a motivation and not a burden. Maybe it is a matter of perspective.

You made more of an "effort" to paint your models, therefore you deserve 10 VPs just 'cause? Do you believe that players paint their minis to appease or entertain their opponents, not for their own pleasure? Yeah, you're being elitist, and I would refuse to play with you. Whether a model is painted or not has nothing to do with one's skill at the game, and no-one has an obligation to paint their army to make others happy. Who are you, or GW, to tell players what they can do with their own minis? Playing according to a set of rules is one thing- a game needs structure to exist-but codifying a judgment about people who, for whatever reason, use unpainted minis, is divisive, likely to turn away new players, and simply mean-spirited.

 Grimtuff wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:

"They're having fun wrong. I care about painted models, so my opponent should have to as well. Because they enjoy the hobby in a different way than me, I'm using negative reinforcement to make them conform to my personal preferences."

Correct, you are having fun wrong. Why should I have to look at a sea of grey plastic when you get to look at a lovingly painted army? Why is that fair?

Do you not get to look at your painted models ? I don't know about you but I tend to enjoy my own models more than my opponents, I really don't care what they look like at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 beir wrote:
At the end of the day, this rule will have no impact. People will self-select into groups that do or do not care about having painted models.

Also, it's 10% of the points. If you were playing a game that came down to a 10% margin of victory, you were probably having a great time regardless of whether or not this rule decided the winner.

That is true, but if this scoring is sprung to steal the win from someone who played harder for it. It can sour an otherwise close and very fun game. Not everyone is a good sport, and I believe we all have seen people who are terrible sports, win or lose.


Edit: All that said, elitism and gate keeping is an inevitable part of this rule and I haven't even been keeping up with the talk. No one " deserves " extra points for extra effort to paint their models. An army being painted is something to cherish and appreciate for the owner. I rarely care if my opponents army is painted, I get the army I like and cherish. I guess I view it wrong but I do the painting for me myself and I. If I have a fully painted army, its really the reward in itself as it looks and feels cool to have. I don't feel like I'd deserve more points nor would someone playing against me deserve in game advantage for it.

At the end of the day when you need to make exceptions for it, it's a bad rule. When its this polarizing it's a bad rule, when it adds nothing positive, it's a bad rule. Tournaments will still enforce painting, groups will still monitor each other, get this rule outta here. No one should feel belittled, pressured or looked down on to paint their army. They should do it because they want to, they want it to look good for them and no one else.

 Dysartes wrote:


I think Smudge's point there was more than having different subfactions as different colour schemes helps to differentiate them, rather than mandating colours for specific subfactions.

Maybe, but it's not always true either. My army has a single color scheme, and I had no problems playing 8th edition with 3 different subfactions in the same list, even if all the models were painted with the same scheme. Nothing in the rules that prevents you to do so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:


Loosen up. Let GW's rules act as a guideline, and feel free to consider modifying and ignoring features if you and your opponent want to. Who cares about what everyone else does? All that matters is the people on the table.

Absolutely true. And for the record, basically everyone plays with some sort of house rules. ITC rules for example ARE house rules, just more popular than other house rules.

 Hellebore wrote:
So let's rewind to before this rule so you can all house rule punishing your opponent for not having a fully painted army.

Or we could pose the actual theoretical, of rewarding any player who has achieved a fully painted army.

Again, this is not about punishing the person without the painted army, but rewarding the one who has achieved that.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Kithail wrote:

 Pyroalchi wrote:
On a more general "mechanics" point: I'm not really a fan of a bineric "10 points or non" and I have the impression I'm not alone with that.
An easy fix (that would also adress the "but I only have 1 model unpainted!" issue) would be something like:
"For every 10% of the armies models that is painted to battle ready standards, you receive 1 VP".
=> a fully painted army vs. a grey plastic horde would still be +10 VP for the first one
=> an almost complete army with only up to 10% unfinished modles would loose out only 1 VP. I think that should mostly be acceptable.

On an additional note I personally would also advocate for "Bases are considered battle ready if they are:
a) transparent
b) one clean color without paint spots (so the standard black, but at least take care that it doesn't look dirty
c) painted/textured etc.

Dude honestly I think you nailed it. I honestly think you did a /thread on this one. I agree you fixed the issue.

He literally Made the rule pretty much somewhat workable .

Impressive

Yeah, I can get behind that as well. I'd probably lose 1 VP on average to this instead of losing the game because I chose sleep over painting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's also funny how half the people with the holier-than-though attitude about their painted army are playing marines which are ridiculously easy and faster to paint compared to most other armies. You literally just have to prime them in the color of your choice, highlight weapons and shoulder pads and you are battle ready. And if that weren't enough, you also have half the model count of most other armies.

I also call BS on the "everyone has 30 minutes to paint". It takes me 15 minutes to get ready for painting and another 15 minutes to store everything away, assuming my daughter doesn't decide to join the painting fun and adds another 15 minutes to get her ready as well. Unless I have at least one and a half hour of spare time, there is no sense in even trying to start to paint. On top of that, my eyes are fairly terrible, so at around 11 PM I simply have to stop painting because I can't see the fethin' miniature anymore because my eyes are tired.
The only reason I get to paint at all is because I put a once a week 3 hour blocker in my schedule that is reserved for nothing else. It still takes me five weeks to finish a miniature like Thrakka or an ork buggy.
Oh, and good luck getting any painting done at all if you are stuck at home with your kids because child care was locked down due to COVID-19 (luckily those times are over).

This thread will soon be locked again i suspect.

People acting like the painting bonus will decide every game. There is nothing in the rules about toning down your list to be on the level with your opponent but that is still done to have an enjoyable game.

Noone is being locked out of the game or being forced to paint even a single miniature. Not having the latest meta hotness is a bigger handicap then missing the bonus.

 jhnbrg wrote:
This thread will soon be locked again i suspect.

People acting like the painting bonus will decide every game. There is nothing in the rules about toning down your list to be on the level with your opponent but that is still done to have an enjoyable game.

Noone is being locked out of the game or being forced to paint even a single miniature. Not having the latest meta hotness is a bigger handicap then missing the bonus.

10 VP will decide most games. You just chose to close your eyes to that because it happens to fit your agenda.

"Pieces of gak"? How is this getting people so riled up??

Well, people tend to feel insulted when you tell them that they are lazy and deserve to lose games. Which is what a fair amount of the people in this thread are doing.

Dai wrote:
"Pieces of gak"? How is this getting people so riled up??

So, to keep count- I've now been called (directly and indirectly) "a gatekeeping douche" and "an elitist piece of gak" (probably others too, but those I've reported). Yet the mods do nothing...

This is a very useful rule.
I find it disrespectful if somebody fields an unpainted army.