Drukhari 8th Codex [old see new]

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**vipoid**

Brutus_Apex wrote:
I was just thinking of competitive ways to make our army work in the new edition.

What if our whole army got flickerfields?

The entire army gets -1 to hit modifier for being super fast a stealth.

It puts enemies at a disadvantage, but obviously it can't be boosted further because of the rules.

I'd been wondering about something along these lines.

Main issue would be for stuff like Mandrakes, as it seems like it drains their flavour a fair bit and because of the stupid cap they can't even have better stealth now.

**harlokin**

Night Shields should go back to also reducing the range of weapons by 6''

Lightning Fast Reactions should increase the invul save instead.

We should have a rule to allow our units in a traport to fire in close combat.

**Red Corsair**

I don't think we have a durability problem if I am honest. Not entirely anyway, venoms are not worth it anymore but it wasn't just a sudden fall from grace. The were too cheap for their durability at the start of 8th and now I would wager they have just crept into being too expensive, but my main issue with them has always been their terrible damage output. Folks STILL think they have decent fire power because once upon a time in 5th edition they could drop the new nidzilla with their 3-4 wound monsters easily with their 12 shots.

4 editions later and the average big onster has a minimum of 8 wounds and the splinter canons range went from 36 down to 18"

Honestly they need to finally do two things, make poison wound on a 2+ and give it that 6th fething seat. Then I am OK with it.

We shouldn't get lost here and blame all the issues on the transport though. It has it's own specific problems but it's not the entire equation. Warriors are way over priced now, they usually were paired with venoms as small gun boats, well that whole package just went through the roof, but part of it is the infantry and not the venom.

I think the army gets a massive boost if they revisit the wargear. As a stop gap I would like them to errata the poison entry to 2+ and later they can touch on each piece of kit and cost.

I mean, if all power weapon become +1 strength I have no problem with that so long as Klaives become damage 2 or +2 strength.

Theres many things like that one example, too many to make a laundry list at the moment, but this is just what happens with an edition change sometimes, none of the nerfs (beyond the moronic infantry pricing) seem intentional and mostly just laziness or looked past.

On a side note, I think it is important for folks to try and revisit the old "bad" units. I am finding hellions surprisingly good and some of the beast packs are very useful again too. It's also nice to see incubi and wyches in the mix again.

My advice is to minimize the amount of poison your fielding. If it sucks, and it does, then try to avoid it.

Wyches are flat better then warriors now. Plasma grenade and blast coupled with dirt cheap blast pistols and overwatch getting nerfed really makes them my go to troop now. That makes me happy actually since that hasn't been the case since the tail end run of the 3.5 codex.

Raiders are finally not just the equal to venoms and are currently just better in every way IMO. I'd even rate the dark lance as better firepower at this point. As amish said earlier DT overcharged venoms are probably the only still valid venom option but I'd honestly still rather field a 3 damage dissie.

So in summary I guess I am saying, use this adversity as an opportunity to learn the army better. Honestly I have played the army since the fugly 3rd ed release sculpts, and this is nothing new, but oddly when the army is on fire like it was here in 8th I find myself wanting to play other armies I own. I kind of like having the army that plays like an unforgiving two edged sword. I have to almost play two games, one with the enemy and another with myself. I am actually more excited to play the army again and surprise folks with the odd ball units they rarely use or see (even in batreps). Hellions are dirt cheap and have been for a hot minute, they look killer too. I encourage you guys to try them out again. That damage two is ironically one of the best solutions we have ATM to marines and vehicles especially with test of skill verse the later.

**flamingkillamajig**

Brutus_Apex wrote:
Mortal Wounds bypass invulnerable saves also though, do they not?

You normally need to look how the invulnerable or -1 to hit behaves. In some instances it's a bubble aura or hero power and may have limited distance to said -1 to hit target before it goes away. Also -1 to hit might just effect shooting and very rarely melee. Invulnerable saves have a lot of the same ways to solve them as -1 to hit. Not all are similar but there's usually something you can do. Mortal wounds seem to effect them both without issue though.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brutus_Apex wrote:
I was just thinking of competitive ways to make our army work in the new edition.

What if our whole army got flickerfields?

The entire army gets -1 to hit modifier for being super fast a stealth.

It puts enemies at a disadvantage, but obviously it can't be boosted further because of the rules.

That or we get some of our old interesting 5th ed codex gear again. Make huskblades and hex rifles good again. Undo the damage to shadowfield and bring back clone field. Make splinter racks not suck, give mercenaries whatever boost their sub faction they're a part of gets or give them their very own obsessions for mercs, make fear ability matter, give us a super heavy, new units in general would be nice, bring the 2 scrapped units and 5 scrapped characters and make the ossefactor less of a joke. Give some of our poisoned weapons more ap, more weapons types and good ones to our bikes, give our characters better movement from riding something or don't scare up their bubble aura ability in a transport. If you're done with all that my small want is to see some new esoteric and strange while horrifying covens weapons and fix finecast grotesques. Grotesques are probably the only model left ya got wrong and still won't fix. That is one fix I wouldn't mind seeing done in plastic even with no new options.

**the_scotsman**

BlaxicanX wrote:
Now that all Marines have 2w base poison weapons are beyond useless now imo.

Well, outside Master of Mutagens+Dark Technomancers anyway.

**vipoid**

the_scotsman wrote:
BlaxicanX wrote:
Now that all Marines have 2w base poison weapons are beyond useless now imo.

Well, outside Master of Mutagens+Dark Technomancers anyway.

Kinda sad that Coven is now better at the ranged poison game than Kabal.

**Amishprn86**

Venom's with double cannons:
Flayed Skull versus MEQ: 1.5
Flayed Skull versus MEQ in cover: 1.5
DT/MoM versus MEQ in cover: 2 wounds
DT/MoM versus MEQ out of cover: 4 wounds

Was posted in a mathhammer channel i just C/P

**the_scotsman**

Amishprn86 wrote:
Venom's with double cannons:
Flayed Skull versus MEQ: 1.5
Flayed Skull versus MEQ in cover: 1.5
DT/MoM versus MEQ in cover: 2 wounds
DT/MoM versus MEQ out of cover: 4 wounds

Was posted in a mathhammer channel i just C/P

Interesting. I'd add this little tidbit:

Ossefactor+Hexrifle 5-man wrack squad - 75pts
Shredder Kabalite Squad - 55pts

Oss+Hex vs MEQs in Cover: Roughly 2.33 wounds? Approximating that the Ossefactor causes 1MW as it has a bit less than a 50% chance to cause its 2 wounds
Shredder kabs vs MEQs in cover: 2.0 wounds.

Basically if not in cover and assuming all MEQs go to W2 the dark techno+MM guys definitely do outperform solidly, if they are a bit more swingy (because it's a bunch of shots vs literally 2 shots out of the transport). If it's in cover, they're close to parity for the points, and the shredder kabs are going to do much better vs anything W1, or anything the Ossefactor can't kill with 1 shot.

**harlokin**

Is there a way of factoring in the impact and cost of 'overcharging' and rolling a 1 while using DT?

**Amishprn86**

harlokin wrote:
Is there a way of factoring in the impact and cost of 'overcharging' and rolling a 1 while using DT?

I don't care honestly, if someone wants a venom dead I just assume it dies, so having 5 wounds left vs 6 is moot to me.

But, its 1 in 6 wound rolls, if you have 2 PC's you are hitting 9 of them, so its 1 MW a turn at least if you are shooting both in Rapid fire range.

**the_scotsman**

harlokin wrote:
Is there a way of factoring in the impact and cost of 'overcharging' and rolling a 1 while using DT?

Its pretty negligible. within the wrack squad it just kills 1 wrack with no weapon, and on the venom it just does 1 damage.

It's still a situation of "The Kabalites are more generalist, and less effective in this one particular situation of your opponent presenting you with specifically W2 3+ models that are perfect for popping with the D2 Ossefactor."

If we compared the Kabs with the Wracks in a meta of Ork Boyz blobs, the kabs would greatly outperform there.

In the current MEQ meta, yup, you always want the wracks.

**flamingkillamajig**

Do people even take poison anymore? It's mostly worthless against MEQ armies due to armor esp in cover (unless things changed with cover). Also the only thing that can spam it really well are scourge which suck and mandrakes or shredders probably do the job better. Ofc dissies beat all of them esp. Given the marine meta.

**Amishprn86**

flamingkillamajig wrote:
Do people even take poison anymore? It's mostly worthless against MEQ armies due to armor esp in cover (unless things changed with cover). Also the only thing that can spam it really well are scourge which suck and mandrakes or shredders probably do the job better. Ofc dissies beat all of them esp. Given the marine meta.

DT/MoM is the only way people take it, 2D and hits of 6 counts as a wound is really good. But i'm with you, my DT list is all Raiders, every sense IH first came out i'd been running 10+ DT Raiders. I've table marine players a few times (post Dread silliness). With 9th i cant do that anymore b.c of points (150pts for the 10 raiders, 15pts for each wrack, 10?pts for each haemon, just 1 raider and 1 wrack is 30pts more, that is a large difference when compare to marines increas)

I can do 7 Raiders now with 6 Talos. But i'm thinking of not doing that anymore as well b.c Marines are about to get an INSANE boost in over all damage. Even if their points as a whole goes it, the damage ratio is still going to be higher.

**flamingkillamajig**

I do run wych cults currently but only for the reaver bikes. I'm not sure if 9th needs heat lances or blasters. Heat lances can be iffy vs t7 compared to blasters but vs t8, t6 or lower it should be better. My issue is outside of knights and guard tanks t8 isn't really frequent. Blaster one d6 damage rather than heat lance half range 2d6 take the highest really bugs me though (also heard melta is +2 damage now). Heat lance also might be ok vs custodes and their bikes now. If marines are the meta I probably would prefer blasters but I'm so disappointed in their damage. I'd rather play them proxies than have to rip off their guns again. I really should green stuff or tack that crap on. Magnets may be a blessing here but I never used them before.

I'm wondering if I should do scourge or warriors with shredders again. Scourge would ds easier but even with the cost increase I wonder if 40-60 warriors would do ok out of deep strike with shredders. I also heard blasts got better in 9th. I'd probably just go for dissie jets with test of skill instead.

**Amishprn86**

HL are fine in Wych b.c of ToS, +1 to wound makes them better than Blasters vs T8 b.c you are wounding on 4+ for both but now you are also 2D6 pick best at 1/2 range. Its also good to kill high wound elites like 3+ wound units (bikes, Aggressors, Centurion's, Nobs/Mega, etc..)

The problem is you are very limited on where you can take them with traits like DT and ToS, they are terrible on Scourges b.c there is no buffs.

**flamingkillamajig**

I'd never want heat lances on scourge or even consider it in 8th at least. Actually blasters with test of skill wound t8 on 3s whereas for heat lances it's 4s. If you had to advance to shoot heat lances in half range then it's an issue of 4s to hit sadly but also no charge which may or may not be a problem. Not sure about heat lances on talos. I've never tried. I fear their move and attack range is short for heat lances to want to move up quickly enough.

I am considering shredders and and what can take them after insane the boosts they have. Sadly they'd be garbage vs elite custodes infantry. I may need dissie spam all over just to handle these shenanigans. Outside of that 3 squads of 5 scourge (15 total) with 12 shredders could be a bit fun with the new rules.

**Amishprn86**

Not saying HL's are generally better (I haven't seen the math), but if you wanted to play them at least there are 2 traits that makes them .... a little more reliable. Also some like HL's on Reavers as character killers, 200 odd points can out right kill a character and charge something else. Though I personally don't like it. But its ab option if someone wanted to try it.

**flamingkillamajig**

I used to like that ability of character killing but I honestly found flyers or venoms with troops inside better at that job.

I think I may go for heat lances on reavers but more for monster and vehicle killing which should make test of skill a good thing to have. It could also be good for fighting custodes bikers. The big issue is I'd probably need to advance to fire heat lances at half range and If I do then I can't charge. As I said before however the low damage potential of blasters is getting to me and usually if you're close enough to shoot reaver blasters then you're close enough to be charged by anything worth its weight in melee.

**Amishprn86**

Hopefully Xenos gets the upgrade treatment imperial is getting and some of our D6 goes to D6+2 or D3+3 (blaster/HL) like how imperial is for some of their weapons.

**flamingkillamajig**

Yeah and maybe make dissies, poison and haywire decent again. It'd be cool to see lances have a special effect too like they used to have on vehicles.

Heat lances should be a great weapon with everything but strength. Melta is supposed to be getting better. I can't imagine heavy bolters getting better without dissies becoming much better than that. Dark eldar have things that harvest energy from stolen suns and in some cases incorporate old eldar tech before the fall that can destroy stars. It's a shame we don't have as many cool sounding weapons like ossefactor. Ofc ossefactor isn't too good right now.

**Red Corsair**

the_scotsman wrote:
harlokin wrote:
Is there a way of factoring in the impact and cost of 'overcharging' and rolling a 1 while using DT?

Its pretty negligible. within the wrack squad it just kills 1 wrack with no weapon, and on the venom it just does 1 damage.

It's still a situation of "The Kabalites are more generalist, and less effective in this one particular situation of your opponent presenting you with specifically W2 3+ models that are perfect for popping with the D2 Ossefactor."

If we compared the Kabs with the Wracks in a meta of Ork Boyz blobs, the kabs would greatly outperform there.

In the current MEQ meta, yup, you always want the wracks.

I thought it was per model, meaning wracks lose the gunner first and only which sucks.

**Denegaar**

Dark Technomancers explicitly says "the firing model suffers 1 mortal wound" so the firing Wrack dies.

**vipoid**

I guess it's hard to pass your gun to the person on your left when it's connected directly to your own body.

**flamingkillamajig**

Amishprn86 wrote:
Hopefully Xenos gets the upgrade treatment imperial is getting and some of our D6 goes to D6+2 or D3+3 (blaster/HL) like how imperial is for some of their weapons.

Hopefully. D6 anti tank weapons are either decent or embarrassingly poor. We need something to lower the resilience of both tanks and monsters.

Then again gw made dissies and similar all the more needed with marines getting wound boost for a barely an increase in points. Shredders sound ok against them but nothing fantastic esp. Due to 2 wounds.

It's a shame. I'd have loved for light infantry to have a slight bit more purpose besides objective secured but everything seems to have a use except for them.

**vipoid**

I mean, a big part of the problem is the complete lack of variety in our weapons.

Better hope tanks and titanic stuff will fall to Dark Lances, because all our infantry can offer is 'more Dark Lances', 'Assault Dark Lances' and 'Pistol Dark Lances'.

And you'd better also hope that every other threat can be dealt with via S* AP0 D1 Poison 4+ weapons, because that makes up about 90% of our remaining arsenal.

**Denegaar**

I mean, if they make Dark Lances more reliable, I'm fine with them. But Poison needs a major tweak because right now outside of Dark Techomancers (seriously, Poison in Covens) it does nothing against the field.

**vipoid**

Denegaar wrote:
I mean, if they make Dark Lances more reliable, I'm fine with them.

The sad thing is, the current version of Dark Lances is still by far the best and most reliable they've been since at least 5th.

I can't be the only one who still remembers back in 7th edition, when it took (on average) 3 Ravagers firing at a IG Chimera for 3 entire rounds in order to get a single 'vehicle destroyed' result.

Denegaar wrote:
But Poison needs a major tweak because right now outside of Dark Techomancers (seriously, Poison in Covens) it does nothing against the field.

Absolutely agree.

Incidentally, comparing Poison Tongue to Dark Technomancers is just depressing.

**Amishprn86**

We need some type of either Docs, Tides, Sacrad rites, or Special ammo for our Lances/Poison. That lone (army wide) would be perfect.

An idea i had was

Pick a specialist and one of the specialist traits, your army gains that rules for the rest of the battle
2CP stratagem to change it once per game.

Poison specialist
re-roll wounds of 1 with poison weapons
-1ap with poison weapons
+1 to wound with poison weapons

Heavy Specialist
While embarked treat all heavy weapons as assault
Can advance and shoot heavies as if they were assault
+1 to hit if remained stationary

Raiding Specialist: "units with fly or transports"
Gain +3" movement
Gain a 5++ vs shooting attacks even while engaged
Gain a 6" disembarked instead of 3"

This gives you a a diverse set of options, yes you can change this the point is the idea. Poison, Heavy, and Fly (aka move fast) options to buff.

**flamingkillamajig**

Some of those could be cool. It still wouldn't make scourge or incubi not suck but I guess even you can't produce miracles

.

**Denegaar**

Mercenaries are another part of our book to look at, they need some kind of synergy with the army, right now they make no sense...
Maybe something like paying a tax so they join the army in exchange to new rules, then they'll feel like real mercenaries. something like:

- Pay the tithe: At the beginning of the round, you may pay 2CP, if you do, your Mercenaries gain the obsession of the detachment they belong until the end of it.

Maybe gaining the obsession is awkward to the lore, but you get the idea.