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 Denegaar wrote:
Yeah, poison weapons feel underwhelming vs everything thougher than an elf.

And please, they should make our characters work inside vehicles, it makes no sense that the captain of a pirate ship is useless inside his boat, it should be even better! and right now for using him, he has to run behind...

Kabals and Cults are really key parts of the army, and right now they are just a mess, they make no sense rules-wise or lore-wise.

I always felt that any character with an aura should apply it to whatever they are embarked in, be it a fortification, or transport, kind of like how a KFF applies to the vehicle the mek is riding in.

No, GW wants you to have guys running on foot after flying fast tanks cheerleading them, but only the Gunman can hear you and no one else hanging out/off of our boats. They can no have you "Sitting next to the crew" and giving them peep talk's either, no no thats toooooo silly for GW also.

Tabletop Tactics - Faction Focus: Drukhari

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yXwqdWIQ5A

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 harlokin wrote:
Tabletop Tactics - Faction Focus: Drukhari

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yXwqdWIQ5A

They make good points, in general, for the ones that can't watch the video:

Good: Blast Pistols, Talos, Voidraven, Incubi and to a lesser extent Wracks, Reapers and HQs

Bad: Look out Sir (before the FAQ of the FAQ), Venom with double Cannon, Disintegrator Cannons (without Writ) and Darklight Weaponry.

Ugly: Basically Troops.

Anyone else thinking that we might see updated wargear/profile changes since they started releasing some of the new changes to Marine/Chaos Marines/Necrons?

I mean, we're Dark Eldar so probably not, but one can hope.

It would make a bit of sense considering our points changes.

Buffing all marine equivalents to two wounds really requires a change to all D6 damage weapons, I think. I would love to see dark light weapons change to a 2D3 damage.

Scanning our weapons for things that do more than 1 damage, there aren't many. Drazhar an auto include as before. Hellions suddenly important? Do Clawed Fiends become better against MEQ than Grotesques solely because of D2?

I would like to see Incubi and Scourges go up to 2 wounds so they aren't just suicide units.

Splinter cannon definitely needs some changes. It's pretty abysmal now. At least -1 AP and wounds on 2/3+. Definitely Assault 6.

I agree on Incubi...they should be our 'marine equivalents '.

I would rather Scourge had something like 4++ vs ranged attacks.

Heat Lances are an obvious weapon to boost; they are like meltas, and almost never used.

Dark Lances would be interesting if they did something vs invul saves.

Ghostplate Armour could provide +1 wound.

On that note, I hope one day when we finally get Trueborn models they come with Ghostplate and Shard carbines as standard.

 Denegaar wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 harlokin wrote:
Tabletop Tactics - Faction Focus: Drukhari

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yXwqdWIQ5A

They make good points, in general, for the ones that can't watch the video:

Good: Blast Pistols, Talos, Voidraven, Incubi and to a lesser extent Wracks, Reapers and HQs

Bad: Look out Sir (before the FAQ of the FAQ), Venom with double Cannon, Disintegrator Cannons (without Writ) and Darklight Weaponry.

Ugly: Basically Troops.

Having now play the Bomber in 9th, No, its really bad, its nothing compare to the CHE. I've player 2 RWJF and a VB twice now. Seriously I took the bomber and put it in storage after the second game with it. I was playing Test of Skill too, 2 Shots is just not enough when most things can easily get -1 to hit now.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
Anyone else thinking that we might see updated wargear/profile changes since they started releasing some of the new changes to Marine/Chaos Marines/Necrons?

I mean, we're Dark Eldar so probably not, but one can hope.

It would make a bit of sense considering our points changes.

I think its going to be REALLY bad for us for the next few months, a lot of guns are now +1D and even +1str, meaning more Str 5 and Str 6 with 2D and 3D (or even 4D like TH's) makes our vehicles far worst.

Regardless of what we do it as an upgrade, if its not something to protect our vehicles, its not worth it to me as I'm going to spam Talos and Heavy vehicles, but will be DSing 2 Ravagers 1 Reaper and lots of Mandrakes with Wracks, focusing on 10 primary points a turn and making sure they can not get theirs.

HB's are now 2D, even if they are 15pts over 10pts, thats still insane, you can make them, re-roll all hits, and rr1's to wounds. 3 HB's kills a BH venom. And thats not counting the ability to add +1 to wound to them. On averager with just rr1's to hit, its still 6D to a venom, and thats not just HB"s some other Str 5 weapons also went to 2D.

Yea heavy bolters are now effectively dissintegrator canons verse our army. Oh the irony. They even have our old cost.

Biggest difference is HB's are available to almost every unit in the imperium.

Quad HB rapiers are nightmare fuel for our transports now.

I also agree with amish on the bomber. It's crap now, especially with almost every marine unit gaining wounds, rendering the bomb WAYYYYYYYY less effective while needing to move into 4 damage smash fether range (5D if they master craft it).

I like tabletop tactics a lot but I have long disagreed with Lawrence view on DE. He generally just relies on spamming the 2-3 most efficient units at the best and worst of times. So he has basically no actual experience using anything but Venom spam, ravagers and fliers, and very briefly reavers and talos depending on the edition and the way the wind blew. Thats over a decade of playing them as well. I find the army is harder to master while playing more variety, but ultimately more powerful.

I mean, no real cult experience. No grots or wracks. No reapers or whats craziest to me is not owning/playing raiders. Personally I have found the Yacht club (massed raiders) the longest spanning viable army beyond coven spam.

So yea, some solid advice, but take with a bit of salt since the guy has extremely limited experience playing with most of the books units.

I think Skari has a much better handle on the army honestly. So be sure to get multiple views on it.

To be fair, spamming 2 or 3 of our most efficient units is how most of the top Drukhari players get anywhere...after all it's a fair chunk of our codex

I tend to feel that Lawrence is a very good player, who happens to also play Drukhari, rather than a very good Drukhari player. I'll be interested to see his "tactica" list, which I believe has Reapers and MSU Incubi.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Yea heavy bolters are now effectively dissintegrator canons verse our army. Oh the irony. They even have our old cost.

Biggest difference is HB's are available to almost every unit in the imperium.

Quad HB rapiers are nightmare fuel for our transports now.

I also agree with amish on the bomber. It's crap now, especially with almost every marine unit gaining wounds, rendering the bomb WAYYYYYYYY less effective while needing to move into 4 damage smash fether range (5D if they master craft it).

I like tabletop tactics a lot but I have long disagreed with Lawrence view on DE. He generally just relies on spamming the 2-3 most efficient units at the best and worst of times. So he has basically no actual experience using anything but Venom spam, ravagers and fliers, and very briefly reavers and talos depending on the edition and the way the wind blew. Thats over a decade of playing them as well. I find the army is harder to master while playing more variety, but ultimately more powerful.

I mean, no real cult experience. No grots or wracks. No reapers or whats craziest to me is not owning/playing raiders. Personally I have found the Yacht club (massed raiders) the longest spanning viable army beyond coven spam.

So yea, some solid advice, but take with a bit of salt since the guy has extremely limited experience playing with most of the books units.

I think Skari has a much better handle on the army honestly. So be sure to get multiple views on it.

I can not agree more with everything you said, especially the highlighted parts. Lawrence once (at the start of 8th) said something i'll never forget. This was when Razorback Spam was king, he did a video on how DE can handle it, he said Venom spam was the anser... vs Razorback spam. I was in chat, ask him to put up or shut up (he was doing a GT that weekend, I asked him to show the DE community he is right b.c at that time all DE players basically didn't know what to do vs it as we didn't have a Codex yet and RWF's were nerf). He took a Razorback spam list and won. After that event I will never listen to him again. Even the most basic new DE player knows 10 Venoms will not win against 10 Razorbacks. How he even said it was good is beyond me.

Now that all Marines have 2w base poison weapons are beyond useless now imo.

Yep, its going to be a rough year.

Poison needs 3+ to wound and -1 AP imo, or double the rate of fire with 3+ to wound.

The Bombers bomb is quite useless now. I hate MW anyway. Just make it massively powerful and at least 3 wounds per hit or make it a Titan killer. Strength 16, 4d6 wounds or something. It's one use only anyway.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Now that all Marines have 2w base poison weapons are beyond useless now imo.

They already were unless you are DT and if you are DT well 2D still kills 2w just as easily.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
Yep, its going to be a rough year.

Poison needs 3+ to wound and -1 AP imo, or double the rate of fire with 3+ to wound.

The Bombers bomb is quite useless now. I hate MW anyway. Just make it massively powerful and at least 3 wounds per hit or make it a Titan killer. Strength 16, 4d6 wounds or something. It's one use only anyway.

That's what surprises me the most as a newbie, I don't get why they can't upgrade all armies at the same time, at least in basic things like this. If they upgrade Marines now and Drukhari in 4 months, this is 4 months of miserable play for a lot of people... it's unfair to play with old rules while the poster boys have their new toys and obliterate everything in sight with their superior weaponry. In 8th at least we had the indexes...

I wanted to start playing in my store this September, but I'll probably play only casual games until the Codex is released, it doesn't seem fun to play vs blatantly better armies in tournaments, at least for an unexperienced player.

Oh my sweet summer child.

I was playing back when we had to wait 10 years or more for codex updates. Count yourself lucky you came in such great time in the history of the game.

Actually, I’m glad that there’s downtime between Codexes man. I don’t have the time or energy to keep up to date on GW accelerated release schedule.

But there is a difference in "Hey all Imperial is getting a bonus 20% to damage and toughness, oh but everyone else? go sit in the corner" and a codex release.

GW is fundamentally changing static stat lines that we all have used as the core for balance. Kabals are priced at 9pts b.c Marines are 1 wound, if Marines are 2 wounds for 18pts, sure we are not 1/2 the points but we are also less than 1/2 the damage and toughness, not only are they just better at shoot, damage, and melee, but also army, and rules. Its a stark difference.

Another example, Power swords are getting +1str, but if marines gets them before everyone else, that just means we are straight weaker for the same thing. But its not just a power sword, its 40+ profiles that are changing, many which are on over 1/2 the units (Heavy flamers and Heavy bolters for example). But how are players that just bought the new Banshees going to feel when "Hey Power Swords are +1str now, we know Banshees actually needs it over Marines, but... Marines get it first, and who knows when CWE gets its"

I'm hoping that GW releases a free general "Upgrade" Faq for all armies and not just new Codices.

Exactly! We can live until the codex with the rules we have, but at least update the points to the new statlines...

For example, we are paying 3 more points for a Kabalite for a reason, thats for sure, but it looks like we are not entitled to see the reason yet... and that is frustrating when some people already knows why their stuff has changed.

The app would seem like an obvious way to give all/most of the factions their codexes at the same time. The hard copies could foloow later due to logistics.

The electronic format would also allow them to leave out units with models yet-to-be-released.

 harlokin wrote:
The app would seem like an obvious way to give all/most of the factions their codexes at the same time. The hard copies could foloow later due to logistics.

The electronic format would also allow them to leave out units with models yet-to-be-released.

Yeah... its not like the 2 large Star Wars games don't already do this and everyone loves it.....

I’m not saying it’s right or fair or whatever. In a perfect world, they would have all the releases planned for the same time.

I’m saying that I’ve given up attempting to read GW mind. They’ve removed units/armies/games that I love. They’ve replaced their entire flagship army with something new. Just when I though I had them pegged, they go and change something up seemingly at a whim. I’m just going to play it by ear and I’ll figure it out when I get there. For the time being, I’ll just continue to build models I like and with any luck they’ll be usable when the codex drops. Or they won’t, then they’ll sit on my shelf until they are good.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
Yep, its going to be a rough year.

Poison needs 3+ to wound and -1 AP imo, or double the rate of fire with 3+ to wound.

The Bombers bomb is quite useless now. I hate MW anyway. Just make it massively powerful and at least 3 wounds per hit or make it a Titan killer. Strength 16, 4d6 wounds or something. It's one use only anyway.

Really?! I like the idea of mortal wounds when done the right way. The thing is (in my opinion anyway) it probably does more with the mortal wounds obsession abilities in phoenix rising. For the most part mortal wound bombers just suck and even though ours wounds on a 3+ it's only one time use. It's a rather shame the void raven's missiles and bomb were made pretty terrible in 8th. I dunno how 9th has changed our void lances.

I really wish heat lances would be decent. Back in the day if you took them in fairly small units you could boost up to an enemy vehicle, half range it and blast it apart. The damage should be good at close range but it very much puts our reavers in death range like most blaster units (obsidian rose probably being the exception here). Part of the issue with heat lances is scourge armed with them are useless, talos might be too slow and short ranged to make em work and reavers while being a good unit for them have the issue of possibly dying right after. The main issue with heat lances (at least in 8th) is that they'd probably be best against monstrous infantry type units (hive guard), ap -5 tends not to be a big deal because anything with a 2+ armor save almost always has an invulnerable save and str 6 is seriously bad esp. when not given a good obsession vs things like custodes bikes or enemies with lots of wounds. 2d6 takes the highest d6 damage is nice but i can't help but wonder if there should be a better damage profile for melta. If 9th has changed this i apologize as i don't have the new rules.

 warmaster21 wrote:

 Denegaar wrote:
Yeah, poison weapons feel underwhelming vs everything thougher than an elf.

And please, they should make our characters work inside vehicles, it makes no sense that the captain of a pirate ship is useless inside his boat, it should be even better! and right now for using him, he has to run behind...

Kabals and Cults are really key parts of the army, and right now they are just a mess, they make no sense rules-wise or lore-wise.

I always felt that any character with an aura should apply it to whatever they are embarked in, be it a fortification, or transport, kind of like how a KFF applies to the vehicle the mek is riding in.

I've already had this discussion with people. I basically agree with character auras applying to units they're in the same transport in but i've also stated that i think open topped vehicles or certain specific transports should allow auras to effect units outside of them. That way an archon could be in any transport we have and basically give his aura to anybody nearby. Sadly we can't get this and we can't even get scourge wings, a hellion, a reaver jetbike or a dais of destruction type transport thing for our leaders because GW seriously gives no craps about us. Keep in mind CWE have probably all of these options and more. I think they even have personal warp jump capabilities for their leaders. When it comes to new units and new unit options we are pretty much the red-headed step eldar.

Really?! I like the idea of mortal wounds when done the right way.

Mortal wounds always feel like a gimmick to me. And I don't like fussing around with gimmicks.

9 times outta 10 mortal wounds abilities are: does a single MW on a unit on a 4+ or does d3 MW on a unit on a roll of a 6. I just don't care, it won't do anything significant thats even worth my time looking at. I'll use it if it's there, but I'm not going to build a strategy around it.

If the bomb did 2d6 MW to an enemy unit, then we're talking. I can do a lot of damage with that. But as is, maximum 10 hits on a 3+ just equals out to roughly 6/7 wounds or 3 dead marines. Either that or a Laughable 2 wounds to a vehicle or monster. Dropping this thing on anything but a heavily armoured infantry unit is just a waste of firepower, but now marines are all 2 wounds so it really doesn't do much anymore.

I agree in the situations you're describing Brutus. That said when an attack does a mortal wound on a 5+ or 6+ based on an attack or charge and esp. if that can be boosted with something somehow then it can be decent. Part of the problem i have however is most vehicles don't have invulnerable saves or their invulnerable saves are vs ranged weapons. Sadly our melee is usually crap outside of anything that isn't basic GEQ infantry except for grotesques and talos. I still think the 5+ to mortal wound per model on a charge obsessions we have are pretty good. It's sort of a shame wych cult's version is only good vs infantry, monsters and bikes but usually those are the only things with invulnerable saves that are good or with invulnerable saves that are active in melee as well.

Personally in the case of haywire i can't stand those mortal wounds because vehicles tend to have far too many wounds in the first place. That said knights invulnerable save only works during the shooting phase as far as i can tell which is a good thing.

Mortal Wounds bypass invulnerable saves also though, do they not?

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
Sadly our melee is usually crap outside of anything that isn't basic GEQ infantry except for grotesques and talos.

I think that Incubi are decent, with Lethal Precision being potentially good for shifting Marines off objectives. Delivery is still a problem, hopefully we will get some sort of 'charge out of open topped' rule.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
I agree in the situations you're describing Brutus. That said when an attack does a mortal wound on a 5+ or 6+ based on an attack or charge and esp. if that can be boosted with something somehow then it can be decent.

I'd agree with this, though I'd add the caveat that the attack has to be decent without the mortal wounds.

e.g. Mandrake Baneblasts are okay with 2 S4 AP-1 shots. However, the same can't be said for, say, the Flesh Gauntlet on a Haemonculus. 5 S3 AP0 D1 attacks, weeee.

Also, when we come to the 'can be boosted somehow' part, we're unfortunately rather short on ways to accomplish that. Either we have zero ways to buff things (we're sadly absent a Mandrake Lord who could give Mandrakes rerolls to wound against an enemy), or else the buffs simply don't synergise with the Mortal Wounds (e.g. Urien gives Grotesques +1S, which is fine for their cleavers but far less useful to their gauntlets than +1 to wound).

To put it another way, I think we'd need a way to buff the wound roll for these weapons - so that either we cause Mortal Wounds on 5+ or else on 6s but with full rerolls. Anything less and it's too unreliable to be anything more than a gimmick.

I was just thinking of competitive ways to make our army work in the new edition.

What if our whole army got flickerfields?

The entire army gets -1 to hit modifier for being super fast a stealth.

It puts enemies at a disadvantage, but obviously it can't be boosted further because of the rules.