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True. I guess I'd just rate it as yet another weird, slightly tone-deaf choice from GW to tout this change as the first preview of the new drukhari codex.

"look, we gave this shooting unit +1A - a thing you all really really wanted! and also, drukhari players will have to wonder why their piratical raiders don't just go ahead and steal the cheap, mass produced heavy weapons from their imperial victims and bolt them onto their tanks like british commandos stealing MP40s from germans the first chance they got on D-Day."

I hope you not serious in saying you would be happy if GW came out and just gave Dark Eldar heavy bolters. That would be the lamest thing I've seen.

But what they did was make the splinter cannon an option for taking out primaris marines, which is nice because marines are rolling right now. It also will help any single wound model that has some FNP equivalent.

However, 2 attacks on a kabalite warrior...pretty useless. If your kabalites are in melee, it's not looking good for you, that extra attack on a s3 model isn't going to be doing much.

Now if they pass that extra attack onto all the other models as well, we may looking at some serious improvements for things like Wyches, Wracks, and heck maybe even hellions.

4+ save, and 2 attacks is something. Not a lot.

But 10 kabalite warriors can charge 10 guardmenn of an objective with a high confidence, something that was not true before.

If they are ballanced such that DE anti horde is to charge them. Well it would be a funn mechanic.

If power of pain is stil a thing, then DE melee could get a bonus. Eager to Flay, and Flensing fury could be OK vs other non melee focused units. Making a charge, 2 attacks hitting on 2's, negating the terrible 4+/5+ to wound.

The new stats for the splinter cannon is kinda baffling. Makes me think that whoever wrote the book doesn’t actually play DE, wouldn’t that be shocking?

If it was assault 5 or something, then okay. Maybe just assault 3 but wounds on 2+ or something.

The 4+ save and 2 attacks is fine, but I’m worried that they’ve tried to make DE more survivable again when what we really need is a massive increase in damage output.

4+ save or not, anything that looks the wrong way at a unit of Kabalites is going to massacre them anyway.

 Icculus wrote:
I hope you not serious in saying you would be happy if GW came out and just gave Dark Eldar heavy bolters. That would be the lamest thing I've seen.

I mean, I'd really like it if Heavy Bolters weren't an objective upgrade over our supposedly-advanced weapons.

 Icculus wrote:

But what they did was make the splinter cannon an option for taking out primaris marines

You do understand that doubling damage while halving shots is just treading water, right?

AP-1 is something, but D2 at the expense of double-shots is a step backwards. It makes the weapon worse against:
- single-wound infantry
- Multi-wound infantry with an odd number of wounds
- 2-wound models with FNP
- Plague Marines

Boy, I'm sure loving this "upgrade".

And this is the part of the codex that's supposed to incentivise us to buy it.

 Icculus wrote:
I hope you not serious in saying you would be happy if GW came out and just gave Dark Eldar heavy bolters. That would be the lamest thing I've seen.

But what they did was make the splinter cannon an option for taking out primaris marines, which is nice because marines are rolling right now. It also will help any single wound model that has some FNP equivalent.

However, 2 attacks on a kabalite warrior...pretty useless. If your kabalites are in melee, it's not looking good for you, that extra attack on a s3 model isn't going to be doing much.

Now if they pass that extra attack onto all the other models as well, we may looking at some serious improvements for things like Wyches, Wracks, and heck maybe even hellions.

Incubi have the same number of attacks they had previously (albeit with other very substantial increases to their killing power) so i don't think it'll be +1A across the board. I would be surprised to see wyches not at A3 though.

To be fair we did want multiple damage poison weapons and ap on our poisoned weapons. I just find the cost of it being fewer shots to be weird. Also I thought our vehicles usually count heavy as assault anyway.

First lelith and now this. This one is a mixed signal for sure. At least I don't have to go up to within 18" if I want to kill infantry anymore but the lack of shots is really gonna hurt our anti horde weapons. Hopefully they'll make shredders better and not "better".

Consider that the +1 attack on Kabalite Warriors isn't necessarily an offensive stat. It's something to give your opponent pause before charging you off of an objective. If they're forced to shoot you off of the objective because an assault is too risky that could make for a turn where they score 5 points instead of 10. If that comes up every few games and every few more you get a chance to charge for an objective that will add up to win you games.

 Canadian 5th wrote:
Consider that the +1 attack on Kabalite Warriors isn't necessarily an offensive stat. It's something to give your opponent pause before charging you off of an objective. If they're forced to shoot you off of the objective because an assault is too risky that could make for a turn where they score 5 points instead of 10. If that comes up every few games and every few more you get a chance to charge for an objective that will add up to win you games.

Erm... I dunno about you, but the difference between 5 S3 WS3+ attacks and 10 isn't much.

Against a MEQ, it changes the equation from .37 wounds to .74... If you don't kill any.
For GEQ, it's a bit worse. 10/9 dead models right now, 20/9 with 2 attacks.

But even a 10-man Guard squad (11 attacks) can expect to kill one or two Kabalites, so that drops damage down to less than a model dead (current) or 16/9 dead (2 attacks).

It's just not scary. The only thing I could realistically see being threatened is some GSC models, because they can operate in small squads with a GEQ profile, but those models should OBLITERATE any Kabalites they choose to charge.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Erm... I dunno about you, but the difference between 5 S3 WS3+ attacks and 10 isn't much.

It'd be 6 to 11 attacks assuming you didn't remove the sybarite from the unit somehow. Plus this assumes you're only running them as 5 model MSUs in venoms, this could well be the way they end up being run but it could be worth using a larger brick to hold an objective and this is where that better armor and extra attack could actually work.

A 20 man blob buffed with Hunt From the Shadows could foil an opponent's plans now that they have 4+ armor.

Updating front page as new information comes out.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Erm... I dunno about you, but the difference between 5 S3 WS3+ attacks and 10 isn't much.

It'd be 6 to 11 attacks assuming you didn't remove the sybarite from the unit somehow. Plus this assumes you're only running them as 5 model MSUs in venoms, this could well be the way they end up being run but it could be worth using a larger brick to hold an objective and this is where that better armor and extra attack could actually work.

A 20 man blob buffed with Hunt From the Shadows could foil an opponent's plans now that they have 4+ armor.

1 attack difference-okay, that's my bad. Alters the math by .07 on MEQ and .17 on GEQ.

But... Does anyone run 20-man blobs? Because they can't fit in any non-FW transport. So you're relying on squishy little T3 4+ bodies to survive. Hell, one squad of buffed Intercessors could do them in. Without needing the Tactical Doctrine, though without it, they just BARELY do it.

Edit: For fun, 41 attacks at S3 do only 3 wounds to a MEQ squad.
They do the same to Gravis, so they can kill (assuming they take no casualties) one Eradicator, Inceptor, or Aggressor.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Updating front page as new information comes out.

Thank you!

 JNAProductions wrote:
But... Does anyone run 20-man blobs? Because they can't fit in any non-FW transport. So you're relying on squishy little T3 4+ bodies to survive. Hell, one squad of buffed Intercessors could do them in. Without needing the Tactical Doctrine, though without it, they just BARELY do it.

I'm having trouble finding tournament lists running Intercessors in 10 man units. In fact, most high-level lists run one minimum strength unit and seem to prefer Infiltrators as troop choices. So if your opponent is bringing a 10-man 200+ point liability and attaching a buff bot to them you should already be feeling pretty good.

Besides, assuming no points increase in the new DE codex, that's 200 points plus a character killing 160 points out of cover... I'm not sure this is the slam dunk case you think it is.

EDIT: This all said, I'm not suggesting that 20 man Warrior blobs are going to revolutionize DE gameplay. It's just a way to get people thinking about how they might use this new profile.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
But... Does anyone run 20-man blobs? Because they can't fit in any non-FW transport. So you're relying on squishy little T3 4+ bodies to survive. Hell, one squad of buffed Intercessors could do them in. Without needing the Tactical Doctrine, though without it, they just BARELY do it.

I'm having trouble finding tournament lists running Intercessors in 10 man units. In fact, most high-level lists run one minimum strength unit and seem to prefer Infiltrators as troop choices. So if your opponent is bringing a 10-man 200+ point liability and attaching a buff bot to them you should already be feeling pretty good.

Besides, assuming no points increase in the new DE codex, that's 200 points plus a character killing 160 points out of cover... I'm not sure this is the slam dunk case you think it is.

Do you know how hard it is to gain cover on a 20-man blob? Even with small bases?

And looking at this list...

Turn 1, they have 35 Bolt shots from the infantry and 24 from the Bikes. That's, with some reroll 1s to-hit...
15 Kabalites dead.

That's just ancillary fire. That still leaves every single Melta gun available to fire at a target that's NOT Warriors.

And again-they kill one and a half MEQ, or one Gravis, in CC. If they all fight. That's not a threat.

One unit revealed and one gun and it is already doom and gloom.

They did a good job on the 9th edition codexes so far. Including the Necrons. Let us just wait and see. If it is bad, let's complain in a week. Not now.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
But... Does anyone run 20-man blobs? Because they can't fit in any non-FW transport. So you're relying on squishy little T3 4+ bodies to survive. Hell, one squad of buffed Intercessors could do them in. Without needing the Tactical Doctrine, though without it, they just BARELY do it.

I'm having trouble finding tournament lists running Intercessors in 10 man units. In fact, most high-level lists run one minimum strength unit and seem to prefer Infiltrators as troop choices. So if your opponent is bringing a 10-man 200+ point liability and attaching a buff bot to them you should already be feeling pretty good.

Besides, assuming no points increase in the new DE codex, that's 200 points plus a character killing 160 points out of cover... I'm not sure this is the slam dunk case you think it is.

Do you know how hard it is to gain cover on a 20-man blob? Even with small bases?

And looking at this list...

Turn 1, they have 35 Bolt shots from the infantry and 24 from the Bikes. That's, with some reroll 1s to-hit...
15 Kabalites dead.

That's just ancillary fire. That still leaves every single Melta gun available to fire at a target that's NOT Warriors.

And again-they kill one and a half MEQ, or one Gravis, in CC. If they all fight. That's not a threat.

Those shots are coming from 630 points of models... That's 120 points killed for a 19% return and it doesn't count the points for any special characters buffing that shooting. If your argument is that the Marines can kill them with most of their army, my response is going to be a *shrug* and saying that even a Knight can suffer the same fate.

Also, this is dishonest as all hell given that your original statement was, "Hell, one squad of buffed Intercessors could do them in. Without needing the Tactical Doctrine, though without it, they just BARELY do it." So which is it a unit of Interceptors or all of the bolters in an army? This is also a list from months ago... Why are you using it as if the meta hasn't changed sing November? That isn't even a legal list anymore with two Captains in a single detachment... Like do you even know what you're talking about or are you literally pulling stuff out of the warp between your cheeks to make these worthless arguments?

But let's do the math.

59 shots, ~46 hits after rerolling 1s, 30 wounds, 15 dead Kabalite Warriors

This math assumes that at no point are you able to gain the benefits of cover, that the marines are blobbed together around an illegal pair of captains, and that the DE player doesn't value the unit enough to spend a CP for -1 to hit... Yeah, this really proves... something...

the_scotsman wrote:

 Icculus wrote:
I hope you not serious in saying you would be happy if GW came out and just gave Dark Eldar heavy bolters. That would be the lamest thing I've seen.

But what they did was make the splinter cannon an option for taking out primaris marines, which is nice because marines are rolling right now. It also will help any single wound model that has some FNP equivalent.

However, 2 attacks on a kabalite warrior...pretty useless. If your kabalites are in melee, it's not looking good for you, that extra attack on a s3 model isn't going to be doing much.

Now if they pass that extra attack onto all the other models as well, we may looking at some serious improvements for things like Wyches, Wracks, and heck maybe even hellions.

Incubi have the same number of attacks they had previously (albeit with other very substantial increases to their killing power) so i don't think it'll be +1A across the board. I would be surprised to see wyches not at A3 though.

I am betting wyches are base 3 attacks but their knives no longer give an attack bonus. Which leaves them with the deign space to give the knives rend and possible extra damage on a 6 to wound for example (total guess)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:
Consider that the +1 attack on Kabalite Warriors isn't necessarily an offensive stat. It's something to give your opponent pause before charging you off of an objective. If they're forced to shoot you off of the objective because an assault is too risky that could make for a turn where they score 5 points instead of 10. If that comes up every few games and every few more you get a chance to charge for an objective that will add up to win you games.

Erm... I dunno about you, but the difference between 5 S3 WS3+ attacks and 10 isn't much.

Against a MEQ, it changes the equation from .37 wounds to .74... If you don't kill any.
For GEQ, it's a bit worse. 10/9 dead models right now, 20/9 with 2 attacks.

But even a 10-man Guard squad (11 attacks) can expect to kill one or two Kabalites, so that drops damage down to less than a model dead (current) or 16/9 dead (2 attacks).

It's just not scary. The only thing I could realistically see being threatened is some GSC models, because they can operate in small squads with a GEQ profile, but those models should OBLITERATE any Kabalites they choose to charge.

If the obsessions remain close to what they are now, black heart warriors would be hitting on 2's by second turn. 5 guys with a 4+ save and a 6+++ that can punch you with 11 attacks is solid at their price point. You can move up and blast one target, or the same one you assault.

I think it's pretty funny that the +1 attack is what some folks are caught up with. Had the leak only highlighted the 4+ save folks would have been happy, but give them another throw away ability for free and suddenly folks are discussing if it makes any difference instead of the real star that is the better save. Warriors in cover having a 3+ is pretty nuts, especially if they reprint hunt from the shadows which would let you jump it to 2+.

I'd say it's pretty safe to assume all splinter weapons are getting -1 ap, in fact I'd be shocked if hekatari blades and haemonculus tools also didn't gain -1 ap.

Heck I'm gona go totally against an archons true nature and say I am excited to see what they did with all the weapons. I can totally see some folks being a bit stubborn to accept the new canons profile since it acts much different and fills a new role even though it's generally a side grade overall but much stronger verse the thing we recently have struggled most with (marines). But consider the fact they gave a plinking weapon with previously zero AP and single damage improvements to both rend and damage and then look at the armory page. There are a ton of garbage weapon profiles in that dumpster that could suddenly become fun.

Assuming the munitorum points are accurate, they need to make 20 point reavers and 17 point hellions more lethal. Again, if all splinter weapons gain ap, and heaven forbid hell glaves gain a single ap and the rider moves up to 3 attacks to match a wych and holy suddenly you have a model with 3 s4 -1 d2 attacks with an assault 2 -1 weapon before drugs, PFP or obsessions. Now that may still die to a stiff fart, but all I have ever wanted was a the ability to blast something to pieces as a reward if I manage to make it in and who knows maybe I'll get that chance finally lol. BTW who else is praying they give reavers that same strat harly bikes have to move after fighting, to somewhat emulate how they once worked?

The only unit I still have no faith will improve is the Cronos Squid man is a meme at this point.

All Poison going to -1AP would be really, really strong (best basic weapon in the game maybe, on a 8pt dude). I don't have faith in that.

On the other hand, the return to the old wording "Poisoned Weapon (4+)" may indicate that we can modify that 4+ somehow.

Come on someone in the UK, go buy some of the new reboxed stuff!!! we need leaks!

 Denegaar wrote:
All Poison going to -1AP would be really, really strong (best basic weapon in the game maybe, on a 8pt dude). I don't have faith in that.

On the other hand, the return to the old wording "Poisoned Weapon (4+)" may indicate that we can modify that 4+ somehow.

Come on someone in the UK, go buy some of the new reboxed stuff!!! we need leaks!

Yeah I suspect there'll be ways to stack poison. Could be really interesting.

Something else people seem to be forgetting is that Marines got +1 wound at negligible cost. So in order for Splinter Cannons to actually be effective marine-killers, they needed to get +1D without losing shots.

Venom with 2 old Splinter Cannons in RF vs. Old Marines: 1.33 dead Marines.
Venom with 2 new Splinter Cannons vs. New Marines: 1 dead Marine.

Tremble with fear at our new and improved "Marine Killing" weapons.

 Niiai wrote:
One unit revealed and one gun and it is already doom and gloom.

They did a good job on the 9th edition codexes so far. Including the Necrons. Let us just wait and see. If it is bad, let's complain in a week. Not now.

How about this - I'll continue complaining until GW start revealing rules that aren't rancid pigswill.

If GW have indeed done a good job with Dark Eldar, in spite of all evidence to the contrary (Anyone want to show me the swathe of new releases we've been offered? Anyone? Now's the time?), then I'll quickly be forced to stop complaining, right?

I remember Disgustingly Resilient reveal.

The whole picture will be better, even if the tidbits are already buffs IMO.

 vipoid wrote:

Spoiler:

Something else people seem to be forgetting is that Marines got +1 wound at negligible cost. So in order for Splinter Cannons to actually be effective marine-killers, they needed to get +1D without losing shots.

Venom with 2 old Splinter Cannons in RF vs. Old Marines: 1.33 dead Marines.
Venom with 2 new Splinter Cannons vs. New Marines: 1 dead Marine.

Tremble with fear at our new and improved "Marine Killing" weapons.

 Niiai wrote:
One unit revealed and one gun and it is already doom and gloom.

They did a good job on the 9th edition codexes so far. Including the Necrons. Let us just wait and see. If it is bad, let's complain in a week. Not now.

How about this - I'll continue complaining until GW start revealing rules that aren't rancid pigswill.

If GW have indeed done a good job with Dark Eldar, in spite of all evidence to the contrary (Anyone want to show me the swathe of new releases we've been offered? Anyone? Now's the time?), then I'll quickly be forced to stop complaining, right?

You do what ever you like.

 vipoid wrote:
Something else people seem to be forgetting is that Marines got +1 wound at negligible cost. So in order for Splinter Cannons to actually be effective marine-killers, they needed to get +1D without losing shots.

Venom with 2 old Splinter Cannons in RF vs. Old Marines*: 1.33 dead Marines.
Venom with 2 new Splinter Cannons vs. New Marines*: 1 dead Marine.

Tremble with fear at our new and improved "Marine Killing" weapons.

I don't think folks are forgeting anything lol. Marines were garbage with a single wound and they needed the durability boost. If GW followed your advice and increased things lethality at point for point and shot for shot the same efficiency then why even bother giving marines the second wound? That would silly.

Further more your example math is incredibly misleading. (*) Compare like for like here or else your intentionally skewing the outcome.

For example :

Venom old canons vs current Marines: 1.33 wounds or 0 marine killed
Venom new canons vs current Marines: 2 wounds or 1 marine killed

So it is in fact an improvement at killing space marines.

I will 100% agree cost can change that outlook if they end up more expensive in the end but that is something we just don't know yet.

I like the new Splinter Cannon.

I'm not sure if it's better or not, it looks more like a change than a nerf/buff, and it gives us an option we didn't have before on one of the most used models we have, the Venom.

I never liked that both my "different" weapons are mechanically the same, and I only need to see my range to know how many dice I roll.

 Red Corsair wrote:

I don't think folks are forgeting anything lol. Marines were garbage with a single wound and they needed the durability boost.

Whereas Splinter Cannons were just amazing weapons.

 Red Corsair wrote:
If GW followed your advice and increased things lethality at point for point and shot for shot the same efficiency then why even bother giving marines the second wound? That would silly.

Yep. Which is why the Heavy Bolter had to become a one-shot weapon to gain D2.

Oh, wait, no. it just got D2 with no trade-off, whereas the Splinter Cannon had to halve its firepower at optimum range whilst also being worse on Kabalites and Scourges.


Silly me, I forgot improvements are only allowed for Marines.

I'd think DE players would be fed up with this by now, but apparently there's no vomit too putrid for them to devour if it has the GW logo on it.

The change to the splinter cannon is better than them doing absolutely nothing (at least it shows they realize there was a problem). With that said, changing it to heavy 3 is concerning. I would like to see more weapon options become playable, rather than the splinter cannon remaining a non-choice on kabalites/scourges. But, we will have to see how it fits in with other changes.

Kabalites getting a 4+ save is great, an extra attack is welcome, but I am concerned we end up paying extra points for the additional attack that will rarely impact the game. But, again, at least they are making changes that acknowledge that they know there is a problem with kabalites.

 Grumblewartz wrote:
The change to the splinter cannon is better than them doing absolutely nothing (at least it shows they realize there was a problem). With that said, changing it to heavy 3 is concerning. I would like to see more weapon options become playable, rather than the splinter cannon remaining a non-choice on kabalites/scourges. But, we will have to see how it fits in with other changes.

Why not make it Assault 4?

Then it might actually serve a useful purpose.

So here's my opinion. I think the splinter cannon is actually ok vs monsters now. Keep in mind i didn't say great. I'm still probably gonna pass on it vs other weaponry.

I think we're also focusing way too hard on what we know. There may be a hundred things we don't know (stratagems, wargear, sub-faction bonuses, how this all fits together with all the other new codex units, etc.). I agree on the 2 attacks on warriors thing and the thing about lelith. I'm sorta mixed on the 4+ armor thing as dark eldar tend to want to be on their transports anyway due to fragility. I'm also mixed on splinter cannons but i'd only take them on venoms. I'd probably never use splinter cannons against infantry now as they're absolute garbage against them.

Once again though we don't know sub-faction traits. For all we know we could get +1 to hit or to wound with poison or even add to our damage. It's a bit early to panic.

I don't think the new Splinter Cannon is terrible. It's just mediocre. And the change doesn't seem to make sense.

So, in that regard. It's right on point with all of GW changes. Odd, and seemingly without purpose or thought.

Oh I agree - it should be assault or rapid fire