Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

This 3+ is not reliable to build a strategy around, which most people do (I hope).

Sure. Why not. Increase the points values of Chaplains by 33% to account for the increased success rate.

Guard get their orders to work 100% now, unless they are wasting them on a unit of Conscripts...

Only if physic powers get a 100% success rate as well. These guys train their entire lives just for the most basic power to fizzle out then their heads explode?

Charging out of deep strike is a thing people build strategies around, and yet it isn't 100% reliable. Shooting is a thing people build strategies around, and yet it isn't 100% reliable. We're not playing a deterministic game.

I don't think they need to buff litanies or the chaos prayers more (assuming you wanted the same buff for dark apostles too). Most litanies are more reliable than psychic powers as is.

Nothing should be 100% reliable. Psykers don't cast with a 100% success rate and yet they're a solid part of the game. Some armies build their strategy around psykers and it's a good tactics, so why not building strategies around chaplains?

3+ is already very strong. Wolf priest, SW equivalent for a chaplain, is a must have, currently the best HQ in the codex.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Charging out of deep strike is a thing people build strategies around, and yet it isn't 100% reliable. Shooting is a thing people build strategies around, and yet it isn't 100% reliable. We're not playing a deterministic game.

To be fair deep strike charges can have redundancy. You can take multiple deep strike units, even duplicate DS units. You can’t have redundancy with prayers because you can only attempt each prayer once.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Charging out of deep strike is a thing people build strategies around, and yet it isn't 100% reliable. Shooting is a thing people build strategies around, and yet it isn't 100% reliable. We're not playing a deterministic game.

Right now you have the Guard's Orders system which is analogous to Litanies.

Iotan Dragons Deep Strike with a Prime 10" away from an enemy, FRFSRF automatically doubles their shots.

Unit of Scions has been charged, they lose several of their number and in the subsequent turn Fall Back, and get given the order: Get Back In The Fight! Now they can shoot from 2" away...

Move! Move! Move! lets the recipient unit Move and Advance again.

Unit Advanced this turn? No Problem! Forwards For The Emperor! Now your Rapid Fire weapons can shoot after advancing.

There are many more orders, which enable rerolls, shooting in Combat, etc... All of these work 100% of the time, unless the target unit is a Conscript squad. And since Conscripts are pretty much wasted points after their nerf...

My personal favourite is using an Iotan Gorgonnes Scion Command Squad with 4 Flamers, being dropped 5" away from an enemy Flyer, then giving them the order: Elimination Protocols Sanctioned! Now the 4D6 autohit shots, that wound on a 5+, get to reroll that 5+... My personal record is 11 wounds caused on an enemy Vendetta from that drop...

 Slayer6 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Charging out of deep strike is a thing people build strategies around, and yet it isn't 100% reliable. Shooting is a thing people build strategies around, and yet it isn't 100% reliable. We're not playing a deterministic game.

Right now you have the Guard's Orders system which is analogous to Litanies.

Iotan Dragons Deep Strike with a Prime 10" away from an enemy, FRFSRF automatically doubles their shots.

Unit of Scions has been charged, they lose several of their number and in the subsequent turn Fall Back, and get given the order: Get Back In The Fight! Now they can shoot from 2" away...

Move! Move! Move! lets the recipient unit Move and Advance again.

Unit Advanced this turn? No Problem! Forwards For The Emperor! Now your Rapid Fire weapons can shoot after advancing.

There are many more orders, which enable rerolls, shooting in Combat, etc... All of these work 100% of the time, unless the target unit is a Conscript squad. And since Conscripts are pretty much wasted points after their nerf...

My personal favourite is using an Iotan Gorgonnes Scion Command Squad with 4 Flamers, being dropped 5" away from an enemy Flyer, then giving them the order: Elimination Protocols Sanctioned! Now the 4D6 autohit shots, that wound on a 5+, get to reroll that 5+... My personal record is 11 wounds caused on an enemy Vendetta from that drop...

Yes, Litany and orders are comparable but no, should not be treated the same.

The order system is a major identifying role in the guard army and whilst its now 100% and needs tweaks, Litany's do NOT need that same 100% guarantee and function absolutely fine as is, same as Dark Apostles in Chaos and many other buffs that apply on a fixed die number. If your armies main tactic relies on a single +3 die result to work with no form of redundancy then the list needs to be relooked at and addressed for its weaknesses than buffing marine chaplains, which marines really do NOT need any more buffs. Its a non dispelable, non miscasting psychic power effectively, and is VERY good for what it does.

 Slayer6 wrote:
Guard get their orders to work 100% now, unless they are wasting them on a unit of Conscripts...

Orders affect one unit at a time, no matter how many Officers there are.

Even at 100% the chaplain isn’t the issue with marines it’s the rest of the gak in the codex. Besides chaos would appreciate the buff... DA doesn’t really do anything that a sorcerer can’t and a sorcerer has access to cooler abilities like stripping invuln saves and adding mobility. They also are a bit more flexible. Rolling 2d6 for 7 is ALMOST as reliable as a 3+ and you can do it twice for 2 different awesome abilities. And they have the option to be in terminator armor...

Remember also one gaurd infantry unit can cost about the same as 2 of those 6 aggressors or 1 centurion. (ok, probably less than a centurion).

So you are passing an aura to potentially 12 or 13 times as much points value, an aura that stacks with lots and lots of other crazy buffs that the marines get for stuff like lieutenants (a cheap combat unit) or chapter masters (a couple cp spent pregame and thaqt jerkoff with a thunderhammer who can kill a leman russ by farting.)

Consder all that! Chaplains are way too reliable and undercosted.

Yeah why not. we all know marines are in desperate need of buffs right now.

Dukeofstuff wrote:
Remember also one gaurd infantry unit can cost about the same as 2 of those 6 aggressors or 1 centurion. (ok, probably less than a centurion).

So you are passing an aura to potentially 12 or 13 times as much points value, an aura that stacks with lots and lots of other crazy buffs that the marines get for stuff like lieutenants (a cheap combat unit) or chapter masters (a couple cp spent pregame and thaqt jerkoff with a thunderhammer who can kill a leman russ by farting.)

Consder all that! Chaplains are way too reliable and undercosted.

Chaplains are more than twice the cost of a Commander and Commanders get twice the orders, not considering Warlord Traits or Strats.
You'd have a point if people were using them when they were reliable but they weren't. They're definitely not gonna use them now thanks to no CP Reroll Strat applying anymore, which means NEEDING the Warlord Trait on them.

Whilst I don't think it should just be made automatic, I'll just go on the record and say that I really hate these 'roll a dice to see if they work' abilities.

Not because they're unreliable but because there's no cost or strategy involved in using them. It's a similar issue with psychic powers - there's no resource management or other meaningful decisions to be made - you just roll a pair of dice and see if you won or not. It's about as involving as Snakes and Ladders.

To be perfectly honest, it seems like this is precisely the sort of thing that CPs should be spent on, rather than Stratagems.

 vipoid wrote:


Not because they're unreliable but because there's no cost or strategy involved in using them. It's a similar issue with psychic powers - there's no resource management or other meaningful decisions to be made - you just roll a pair of dice and see if you won or not. It's about as involving as Snakes and Ladders.

Isn’t most of the game rolling dice and seeing if you won or not? That’s basically the entirety of the shooting phase.

Personally I’ve found great use for the dark apostle. He gives access to a +1 to hit or a -1 to be hit more reliably than a sorcerer and he can’t be denied on that attempt. The 10pt option to bump it up to a 2+ is even better. If the buffs were automatic, you would have to push the points over 100.

 vipoid wrote:


Not because they're unreliable but because there's no cost or strategy involved in using them. It's a similar issue with psychic powers - there's no resource management or other meaningful decisions to be made - you just roll a pair of dice and see if you won or not. It's about as involving as Snakes and Ladders.

I disagree, the entire game is (or should be at some level) about dice rolling. Having a power that works on 3+ is pretty solid, and the meaningful decisions still matter because players should prepare the army to have a plan B in case that 3+ doesn't work. A single model that works automatically and determines the entire army's strategy is no meaningful decisions to made, not the opposite.

If my jumped ork unit failes turn 1 charge the game doesn't end there.

 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:

Isn’t most of the game rolling dice and seeing if you won or not?

And you think that's a *good* thing? Might as well set up the models and then play a game of Yahtzee to see which side wins.

 Blackie wrote:

I disagree, the entire game is (or should be at some level) about dice rolling. Having a power that works on 3+ is pretty solid, and the meaningful decisions still matter because players should prepare the army to have a plan B in case that 3+ doesn't work. A single model that works automatically and determines the entire army's strategy is no meaningful decisions to made, not the opposite.

If my jumped ork unit failes turn 1 charge the game doesn't end there.

Are you replying to the right person?

Because I never said that the ability should be automatic. I even specified that the unreliability was not why I disliked this sort of ability.

From what you wrote it seems you dislike the randomness of dice rolling, which is a pillar of a game like 40k.

Take the psychic phase example you made: there are a lot of meaningful decisions to consider because psychic powers may not work and even if they work there are many other pieces of the puzzle that have to perform.

When it comes to the psychic phase the player has to decide what power to use and what unit to target. I see a lot of decisions to take.

Same with litanies. I decide before the game starts what litanies my Wolf Priest has, then I have to decide where to put him during deployment and then after the game goes ahead he may buff the unit I intended him to buff as part of my planned strategy or maybe not because in the meanwhile that unit has been destroyed/crippled or game mechanics set other priorities. If the litany works I play as a consequence, if it doesn't work I may play differently.

 Blackie wrote:
From what you wrote it seems you dislike the randomness of dice rolling, which is a pillar of a game like 40k.

That's literally the opposite of what I said. Please don't strawman me.

 Blackie wrote:

Take the psychic phase example you made: there are a lot of meaningful decisions to consider because psychic powers may not work and even if they work there are many other pieces of the puzzle that have to perform.

Those "meaningful decisions" really aren't because psychic powers have no cost.

Yes, they might not work, but that's not the issue. The issue is that it costs you nothing to try. It's the same problem as Overwatch in 8th - it's basically a free ability, so even if the outcome is unlikely to be in your favour, you lose nothing by trying anyway.

Compare that with, say, Warmachine where spells are cast at the expense of other options. In that game, all non-offensive spells work automatically, but there are still vastly more meaningful decisions to be made than in 40k, because there's actually a system of resource-management involved. In 40k, on the other hand, there's really no cost to just casting as many psychic powers as you can. Because it exists outside of everything else and so doesn't impact the psyker in any meaningful way. There are no shared resources or such to worry about - just roll the dice and hope for the best.

 Blackie wrote:

When it comes to the psychic phase the player has to decide what power to use and what unit to target. I see a lot of decisions to take.

I see decisions. I don't see meaningful decisions. Especially not when 40k is so shallow that the "right power" and "right unit to target" can often be determined in the list-building stage, before you even put your models in the table.

 Blackie wrote:

Same with litanies. I decide before the game starts what litanies my Wolf Priest has

Wow, what a great tactical decision.

 Blackie wrote:
then I have to decide where to put him during deployment and then after the game goes ahead he may buff the unit I intended him to buff as part of my planned strategy or maybe not because in the meanwhile that unit has been destroyed/crippled or game mechanics set other priorities. If the litany works I play as a consequence, if it doesn't work I may play differently.

I really don't know if there's any point continuing this discussion as you seem intent on being purposefully obtuse.

Because it's either that or you genuinely think that "point, click, roll dice" is the height of tactical decision making.

I never wanted to strawman you, if I did I apologize.

We clearly have very different opinions about 40k and about what a tactical game is, generally speaking. I never played Warmachine and I can't make comparisons between the two games, but I'm convinced that 40k as it is has plenty of rooms for meaningful decisions in game. Some of them are the consequence of a result of dice rolling.

Maybe this should be its own thread, but would it be crazy to have psychic powers always go off by default? You could do an opposed psychic test if your opponent opts to try and deny one of them.

Psychic powers used to only have a small chance of failing. Most psykers were Leadership 10 which meant that you only failed to cast a psychic power if you rolled an 11 or 12 on 2d6. Heck, warlocks and shadowseers just had powers that were always active; no need to make a psychic test at all. Plus, denying psychic powers wasn't generally a thing. There were a handful of things that could shut down powers, but they were kind of few and far between.

Personally, I just don't find it very fluffy to have psychic powers failing a significant portion of the time. I don't recall a lot of BL novels where a librarian actively fails to put up a force barrier or where a warlock suddenly can't fire a blast of force lightning. With a couple of rare exceptions (astropaths maybe), anyone good enough at throwing psychic powers around to have stats for them on the tabletop is goo enough at using those combat powers to not just randomly fail to use them in the fluff.

So with that in mind, rolling psychic tests just kind of feels like rolling for the sake of rolling. If someone is actively trying to shut down the power, an opposed test is probably fine, but just randomly having a chance to not do anything? Adds rolling. Removes cool moments. Makes the psyker look weirdly bad at psykering.

You coud have exceptions for those powers that are supposed to be really difficult/unreliable to cast (WC 8+ powers?), but I question whether having powers that go off less than half the time you try to use them is good game design.

Wyldhunt wrote:
Maybe this should be its own thread, but would it be crazy to have psychic powers always go off by default? You could do an opposed psychic test if your opponent opts to try and deny one of them.

Psychic powers used to only have a small chance of failing. Most psykers were Leadership 10 which meant that you only failed to cast a psychic power if you rolled an 11 or 12 on 2d6. Heck, warlocks and shadowseers just had powers that were always active; no need to make a psychic test at all. Plus, denying psychic powers wasn't generally a thing. There were a handful of things that could shut down powers, but they were kind of few and far between.

Personally, I just don't find it very fluffy to have psychic powers failing a significant portion of the time.

I prefer them being randomly successful. Specialist shooters or melee units have to roll dice, usually more than one layer: to hit, to wound, armor saves.... so even the best gunslingers and duellists in the galaxy can fail their attacks. I don't see why psykers, and chaplains just to stay on topic, should automatically do their job then. I'd even give a roll to auras to be honest, to see if they work or not in that turn.

 Blackie wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:
Maybe this should be its own thread, but would it be crazy to have psychic powers always go off by default? You could do an opposed psychic test if your opponent opts to try and deny one of them.

Psychic powers used to only have a small chance of failing. Most psykers were Leadership 10 which meant that you only failed to cast a psychic power if you rolled an 11 or 12 on 2d6. Heck, warlocks and shadowseers just had powers that were always active; no need to make a psychic test at all. Plus, denying psychic powers wasn't generally a thing. There were a handful of things that could shut down powers, but they were kind of few and far between.

Personally, I just don't find it very fluffy to have psychic powers failing a significant portion of the time.

I prefer them being randomly successful. Specialist shooters or melee units have to roll dice, usually more than one layer: to hit, to wound, armor saves.... so even the best gunslingers and duellists in the galaxy can fail their attacks. I don't see why psykers, and chaplains just to stay on topic, should automatically do their job then. I'd even give a roll to auras to be honest, to see if they work or not in that turn.

I think I"m more okay with attacks failing because it acknowledges the abilities of your target. A vindicaire is an amazing sniper, but a superhumanly fast space elf is still going to put that aim to the test. A bolter is a terrifying weapon, but the armored plating of a tank is tough enough to prevent it from wounding every time. When a kellermorph misses a shot, I picture his target dodging to the side. When an autarch misses an attack, I picture his target thwarting the attack with a superstrong swing of his blade. When a psyker fails to put up a forcefield? I just picture him squinting like he's pooping his pants while failing to make anything happen.

A chaplain failing to be inspiring every third turn is similarly weird. Like, at the start of the battle, the chaplain's words have your marines so amped up that they get rerolls comparable to those provided by warp sorcery. The next turn, your marines just aren't picking up what the chaplain is putting down. Like, all that sorcery-equivalent enthusiasm is just suddenly gone. Oh, but like, ten seconds later, at the start of round 3, you pass a 3+, and your marines' enthusiasm is cranked up to 11 all over again. That's quite the emotional roller coaster. I just don't see what the die roll to see if the buff works is meant to represent or accomplish. It feels like rolling for the sake of rolling. Do you feel like litanies are overpowered if they don't have a chance of failing?

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Slayer6 wrote:
Guard get their orders to work 100% now, unless they are wasting them on a unit of Conscripts...

Orders affect one unit at a time, no matter how many Officers there are.

Actually there isn't a fixed limit of 'only one unit benefits from this order per turn', that's what makes orders so much stronger than some stratagems. You are implying that even if you had countless officers you can only issue one of each order per turn. Thus resulting in a limit of 7 orders + Regimental Orders per turn.

The exact rule is: This unit may issue one order per turn to the soldiers under their command at the start of their Shooting phase.

It goes on to further state:

A unit may only be affected by one order per turn.

So my Iotan Dragons Deep Strike tactic on Turn 2 allows me to use FRFSRF on 5 different squads (4 if I fail the 2+ bonus order roll) for 180 (144 if failed) shots of AP-2 goodness... (Iotan Dragons get +6") The single Prime has Progeny of Conflict, Master of Command, Command Rod, Tactical Auto-Reliquary, Inspired Tactics

There are two exceptions to the above rules - the first is where Officers have either additional supplementary rules that allow further orders, or wargear that does the same. Senior Officer on Company Commanders allow 2 orders; Tactical Genius on Creed allows 3 orders. Tempestor Primes can take Command Rods to add an additional order, and any one Officer can get Master of Command for an additional order as a Warlord Trait. Oh! And let's not forget the Stratagem: Inspired Tactics for +1 order...

The second exception is the Relic: Laurels of Command which allow an officer to issue a second order to a unit the previously received one earlier, on a 4+... This can be highly entertaining when combined with Take Aim! (Reroll 1's), and Elimination Protocols Sanctioned! (Reroll Wounds against Vehicles or Monsters), on a unit of Kappic Eagles which have disembarked from a transport to gain +1 to hit...

the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah why not. we all know marines are in desperate need of buffs right now.

Well... Yeah... I can understand that...

I'd start by giving them double their current wounds, +2 to their S/T/A, +1 to their saves, +6 to their movement, and all ranged weapons, +1 AP to all weapons - and MAYBE then I would consider them on par... Oh and add a 0 to the cost of each unit. this way its completely fair! (40 points Eradicator becomes a 400 point Eradicator!) For Custodes, just double up the values again.

Wyldhunt wrote:

I just don't see what the die roll to see if the buff works is meant to represent or accomplish. It feels like rolling for the sake of rolling. Do you feel like litanies are overpowered if they don't have a chance of failing?

Because things don't work automatically, no matter how skilled people are. There's always some chance to fail, especially in a dice rolling based game.

And yes, I think they'd be overpowered since they're basically very strong aura bonus. Maybe I'm too used to ork standards, where auras are very small buffs compared to imperium ones.

I think my SW wolf priest is an excellent supporting character even if his litanies fail on 1 or 2, IMHO a must take. If it works automatically he shouldn't be that cheaper points wise and for balance sake I'd rather have a cheaper character that works 66% of the time that a more expensive one that works automatically.

 Blackie wrote:
I think my SW wolf priest is an excellent supporting character even if his litanies fail on 1 or 2, IMHO a must take. If it works automatically he shouldn't be that cheaper points wise and for balance sake I'd rather have a cheaper character that works 66% of the time that a more expensive one that works automatically.

Do you expect to see a SW army using Wolf Priests at major tournaments when they start up again?

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
I think my SW wolf priest is an excellent supporting character even if his litanies fail on 1 or 2, IMHO a must take. If it works automatically he shouldn't be that cheaper points wise and for balance sake I'd rather have a cheaper character that works 66% of the time that a more expensive one that works automatically.

Do you expect to see a SW army using Wolf Priests at major tournaments when they start up again?

I don't know, I refuse to play primaris so my SW won't definitely be tournament style lists Many SM units have never been in tournament lists but it doesn't mean they were bad or needed new rules, they may simply be overshadowed by some overpowered stuff.

AKA they're unreliable and you just won't admit it.

Also for the record I'm sure nobody would care if some Psyker powers were auto cast since some are that terrible to begin with.