Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Lammia wrote:
*Except when it's the Sisters squad with the plot Armour

Sisters plot armour tends to be a variation of "last sister standing", "and only three survived", or "dead but not forgotten".

Even on the tabletop you've got one living character, one resurrected character wearing the armour of another dead character, and an enthusiatic funeral procession (and most recently Stern, the thrice killed).

A.T. wrote:

Lammia wrote:
*Except when it's the Sisters squad with the plot Armour

Sisters plot armour tends to be a variation of "last sister standing", "and only three survived", or "dead but not forgotten".

Even on the tabletop you've got one living character, one resurrected character wearing the armour of another dead character, and an enthusiatic funeral procession (and most recently Stern, the thrice killed).

+1 for "enthusiastic funeral procession."

I think this is a lot of GW lore, being set in the grim darkness. Not many heroic deeds done with a full company at your back.

On the scale of different branches, there are 10 to 100 times as many PDF troops as IG. Then there are the non-Arbites Arbitrators (local last enforcement, exceedingly militarized by today’s standards), then Guard, Navy, Admech forces, Sisters and Arbites. There are probably more weaponized servoskulls and combat servitors than there are Sisters or Arbites, but nothing beats PDF for cost-efficient disposable soldiery.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Unless they're up against Grey Knights, that is.

TOO FAR!

On the size thing.

Shouldn't the PDF be bigger then guard?
Considering all planets habe PDF forces but only a fraction of These enter the guard?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
On the scale of different branches, there are 10 to 100 times as many PDF troops as IG. Then there are the non-Arbites Arbitrators (local last enforcement, exceedingly militarized by today’s standards), then Guard, Navy, Admech forces, Sisters and Arbites. There are probably more weaponized servoskulls and combat servitors than there are Sisters or Arbites, but nothing beats PDF for cost-efficient disposable soldiery.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Unless they're up against Grey Knights, that is.

TOO FAR!

This

Should've read more of the thread .

Archebius wrote:

A.T. wrote:

Lammia wrote:
*Except when it's the Sisters squad with the plot Armour

Sisters plot armour tends to be a variation of "last sister standing", "and only three survived", or "dead but not forgotten".

Even on the tabletop you've got one living character, one resurrected character wearing the armour of another dead character, and an enthusiatic funeral procession (and most recently Stern, the thrice killed).

+1 for "enthusiastic funeral procession."

I think this is a lot of GW lore, being set in the grim darkness. Not many heroic deeds done with a full company at your back.

I dunno, I find it really depends, some factions are simply written more heroicly then others. It's all about the styling of the faction. Guard for example are, typically, written as cogs in a machine foir the glory of the IoM, normal humans simply trying to survive in the face of hell etc. marines can vary from chapter to chapter a bit some being practially little more then cogs in the machine themselves (useally these are no name chapters killed to make an enemy look menacing, see Ebon Jaguars for exhibit A) to the space wolves whom are presented as "a company of heros all!"

generally SOBs tend to be presented as "powerful and capable iondividuals, willing the Martyr themselves. the last bit is important, Martyrdom is a big part of the SOB faction identity (to the point of one of their order tactics is built around it)

It's one of the reasons why, when we talk about game information, I frequently take exceptions to the fluff. This is a hard conversation, because it's working backwards.

In the books, marines probably are described as being faster, but in the game, we've both got the same move stat and initiative doesn't exist anymore, so the novels are wrong.

It's more than just the novels though- right in the BRB, they talk about the power of the geneseed and all the extra organs, but effectively, when you break it down, it amounts to a point of strength and a point of toughness.

Marines have insane levels of bolter skill and superior combat training, reflected by bolter discipline and combat doctrines, while sister perform miracles, invoke rituals prior to battle and are inherently resistant to psychic powers. It makes for a closer match-up than you tend to see in the novels.

The trailer for 9th ed linked earlier in the thread was beautiful. We saw the differences in the soldiers involved- the guard was a speed bump; the sister fought hard and skillfully but lack the sheer killing power to put the foe down- she took a grievous wound, and restored it with faith; when the marine showed up, he tore the enemy to pieces and turned the battle. When the alien army revealed its true power, the marines were to few to win on their own, but backed by the superior numbers of sisters, the whole became greater than the sum of its parts.

Primaris, of course, blow the doors right off of that rhino though, being ridiculously superior to both sisters and regular old marines.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
On the scale of different branches, there are 10 to 100 times as many PDF troops as IG. Then there are the non-Arbites Arbitrators (local last enforcement, exceedingly militarized by today’s standards), then Guard, Navy, Admech forces, Sisters and Arbites. There are probably more weaponized servoskulls and combat servitors than there are Sisters or Arbites, but nothing beats PDF for cost-efficient disposable soldiery.

Well, disposable certainly. But even the Guard looks down on PDF troops as completely useless, and gear-wise, they're often kitted the same. So cost-efficient is debatable at best, unless you mean strictly as bullet-catchers.
Guard stories that involve the PDF usually also talk about the need to train the up to basic Guard standards.

 Mistresspaige wrote:
Hi guys forgive my ignorance on the lore but I’ve looked up Sisters of battle and from my understanding they’re supposed to be the equivalent of female space marines correct? Curious how do they compare? Are they biologically enhanced like the space marines are? Do they have power armour? How do they work exactly?

The short version: One on one, a standard line Astartes would kill a Sister of Battle, but he wouldn't be able to do so completely effortlessly. The odds are against the Sister, but overall they're a lot closer match than pretty much anything else and an Astartes.

The closest thing to a Sister of Battle would probably be a hardened Arbites or Scion, and I mean they'd have to be a remarkable veteran to take her down.

Sisters are not genetically enhanced like Astartes. Astartes are more effective than a mortal human in power armor, generally speaking, because the armor is wired into their nervous system through the Black Carapace implant- and that makes them move 'with' the armor and vice versa, rather than having to 'wear it and move'. Couple that with the fact that Astartes can be centuries old, and spend most of that time killing or training to kill or trying to get somewhere and kill things, and you're talking about a terrifying killing machine.

Getting your ass kicked by an Astartes is pretty much expected for anyone who isn't an Astartes, according to the fluff.

Sisters are, however, rocking lighter and seemingly more maneuverable power armor than most it would seem. This makes them more effective than you'd think, and Sisters were rocking 'lightwight power armor' a long time before Belasarius Cawl said, "Hey, let's do Phobos armor" which goes to show you how good ideas aren't always contagious in the Imperium.

Marines are stronger and tougher, however Sisters of Battle balance this out with acts of faith (essentially, being so damned religious they break reality in a way). And they can just NOPE psyker powers, and they're more resistant to Chaos than most Astartes.

Overall, it seems there's a degree of admiration between the two- even if Sisters worship the Emperor and most Astartes don't (they 'venerate'). Astartes see the Sisters of Battle many times as the closest thing to an Astartes, and Sisters see Marines often times as the divine work of the Emperor made flesh.

Of course, sometimes it's funny- you can kinda tell Space Marines think Sisters are absolutely off their rocker in a good way, and it both amuses and surprises them how crazy Sisters can be. Basically- imagine Fire Marshall Bill, but a woman in power armor, and she's been given a flamer and told to go burn the bad things.

However, Sisters are more numerous than Space Marines- however, Space Marines have always kinda been the poster boys for the game so they'll be more common.

If you want some good reading, I can't think of any books off the top of my head but do some deep dives on Lexicanum.

Also, for about ten years people screamed for plastic sisters in literally every single discussion about 40k, and it seems that GW can't keep the basic line squads in stock.

A.T. wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
And yet the fluff specifically and repeatedly compares the two as equals.

Can you provide a source?

Most Sisters of Battle codices state it, starting with the third edition one.

You can say "that's just propaganda", but that's the nature of 40k lore so the objection would be pointless.

I've not argued here that Marines aren't physically superior with their massive generic enhancements, but oddly enough said genetic enhancements don't actually do much for their skill. Most of them just help with raw power and survivability.

Secondary heart: Survivability.
Ossmodula: Survivability
Biscopea: More muscles.
Haemastamen: Survivability
Larraman's Organ: Survivability
Catalepsean Node: Survivability
Preomnor: Survivability
Omophagea: An oddball one, allows them to gain basic intel by eating brains.
Multi-lung: Survivability
Occulobe: Low-light vision, better sight (Sisters get a similar boost through their helmets)
Lyman's Ear: Better hearing (Sisters get a similar boost through their helmets)
Sus-An Membrane: Survivability
Oolitic Kidney: Survivability
Neuroglotis: Superior sense of taste
Mucranoid: Survivability
Betcher's Gland: Acid/poison spit
Progeniods: Reproductive gland
Black Carapace: Neural link to power armor (Sisters have been retconned in to using cybernetics to have a similar effect, see the cyber-plugs on Repentia)


Of these, the only two that make the Marine have better reactions are the Occulobe and Lyman's Ear, however, it's noted since third edition that the Sororitas power armor helmet, particularly the Sabbat-pattern one worn by veterans, does a similar job (and there is no lore that indicates which one is actually better, but certainly a Space Marine out of power armor maintains their advantage in this regard where a Sister needs their power armor to keep up). A Space Marine is certainly stronger and certainly more durable than a Sororitas, but the skill a Space Marine has is not merely given to them, it's trained up over time. And the same is said of a Sister of Battle, thus why only veteran Sisters can match Space Marines in terms of skill.

I'd place SoBs on par with Bile's New Men. They are far and above normal humans, but one on one they are never going to go toe to toe with a Marine. When a SM can literally crush your skull with his bare hands you're not going to be fighting them in a "fair" fight anyway.

Multiple SoBs could easily match a Marine though.

 Melissia wrote:

A.T. wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
And yet the fluff specifically and repeatedly compares the two as equals.

Can you provide a source?

Most Sisters of Battle codices state it, starting with the third edition one.

Can you provide a verifiable source?
As I mentioned I have trawled extensively though the older books and transcribed significant portions of them - frankly the lore in the WH book was not that extensive and the closest I can see it to suggesting the sisters are the equal of marines is the opening "why play this faction" blurb stating that they are exceptionally well equipped, which was frankly stretching it with the 3e model line.

 Melissia wrote:
A Space Marine is certainly stronger and certainly more durable

And faster both in terms of speed and reactions, and with enhanced senses, and ... really every physical advantage. A veteran sister may certainly be more skilled and experienced than a novice marine but that's about it unless you get into faith.

A.T. wrote:
Can you provide a verifiable source?

I have no intention of playing the game of "any source A.T. doesn't like doesn't count". It's long-established lore, you don't have to like it or accept it, but that doesn't change anything except that you don't like it and accept it.

Deal with it.

 Melissia wrote:

A.T. wrote:
Can you provide a verifiable source?

I have no intention of playing the game of "any source A.T. doesn't like doesn't count"

I literally have the books right here at my side, several in searchable format including one that I transcribed myself. I've even taken the time to re-read parts of several of them searching for these many apparently elusive quotes you are referring to and i've said as such.

So I call bs on your claimed quote and 'long established lore', on the grounds that every source you've claimed to support it does not in fact support it.

 Melissia wrote:
I've not argued here that Marines aren't physically superior with their massive generic enhancements, but oddly enough said genetic enhancements don't actually do much for their skill.

White the list is impressive it does leave out a few things. I’m not going to quote the organ in question but I’ll write what it does.
Less sleep: probably the biggest one. An astartes only require 4h of sleep, and even then is aware of it’s surroundings. Apparently it can be extended to a few days without sleep if necessary. I’m going to leave the daily training schedule of a marine here from Lexicanum, first published in sm codex 3ed: https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Daily_rituals_of_a_Space_Marine —> less sleep and prayer=higher skill level.

The ability to filter toxins, change the color of your skin depending on sun intensity, waterbreathing and much more powerfull liver all suggest a space marine could pull off ambushes in the most hazardous environments, such as striking from under water, whilst the sisters are reliant on more straightforward warfare.

When cut off from your supply lines and the bolter runs dry the space marine will be in a far better position then the sororitas.

The ability to interrogate an enemy by eating their brain can no considered a skill.

 Nerak wrote:
The ability to filter toxins, change the color of your skin depending on sun intensity, waterbreathing and much more powerfull liver all suggest a space marine could pull off ambushes in the most hazardous environments, such as striking from under water, whilst the sisters are reliant on more straightforward warfare.

... or they just use their vacuum-sealed power armor to do the same thing. Not that either Space Marines or Sisters are particularly well known for relying on striking from hiding; the ones that do are exceptions to the norm (Raven Guard come to mind). A lot of a Space Marine's organs' effects can be, and are, replaced by technology. That said, it is certainly true that Marines can train more extensively with the increased stamina and durability their extra organs and special diet give them. Thus why the average Space Marine has a great deal of skill, and only veteran Sisters with both extensive training and battlefield experience can match them.

 Melissia wrote:
.. or they just use their vacuum-sealed power armor to do the same thing. Not that either Space Marines or Sisters are particularly well known for relying on striking from hiding; the ones that do are exceptions to the norm (Raven Guard come to mind).

Uh, Phobos Armor...?
Legion Recon squads?
...Scouts? And several scouts have been full Astartes, if I'm not mistaken.

Not to nitpick, but there's those things.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Not to nitpick, but there's those things.

I'll pick some nits though! Scouts and Legion Recon troops both typically use camo cloaks to enhance their stealth abilities and, furthermore, also usually stay in their armor rather than attempting to go armorless for stealth purposes. And both of those are, again, exceptions to the norm, they're not your "typical" marine force and not your typical marine tactics.

And while it's true that Reiver power armor has silent motors and thus are stealthy, they actually don't seem to be lored as attacking from hiding, but rather as shock and terror troops attempting to demoralize the enemy. You'd think with silent power armor, they'd be an actual stealth unit, but GW being what it is...

I'm not sure "who's better at stealth" is really the rock one should want to die upon for a thread like this. I'll fully agree that Marines are typically better at stealth, if nothing else because Sisters would basically almost never use stealth anyway, at most they might ambush in an urban combat environment or something.

 Melissia wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Not to nitpick, but there's those things.

I'll pick some nits though! Scouts and Legion Recon troops both typically use camo cloaks to enhance their stealth abilities and, furthermore, also usually stay in their armor rather than attempting to go armorless for stealth purposes. And both of those are, again, exceptions to the norm, they're not your "typical" marine force and not your typical marine tactics.

And while it's true that Reiver power armor has silent motors and thus are stealthy, they actually don't seem to be lored as attacking from hiding, but rather as shock and terror troops attempting to demoralize the enemy. You'd think with silent power armor, they'd be an actual stealth unit, but GW being what it is...

I'm not sure "who's better at stealth" is really the rock one should want to die upon for a thread like this. I'll fully agree that Marines are typically better at stealth, if nothing else because Sisters would basically almost never use stealth anyway, at most they might ambush in an urban combat environment or something.

Well, you're also misunderstanding: Covert/Stealth doesn't always mean 'completely hidden'. An old adage is "It is not essential that the enemy be taken unaware, only that he becomes aware too late to react effectively". An Ambush doesn't mean you're going to be sneaking right up in close quarters- ranged combat, surprise attacks- this can all be done (and usually is) at a long range, where by the time you could even see the big power armored guy- he's dumping rounds into your face.

And yes, they are 'typical'- because those are a component of Astartes forces. They aren't standard 'tactical' troops, but they are no less atypical than assault marines or devastators.

Sisters, however, have a more direct focus. And that's fine, they're a mortal force and their strength is in their zeal.

I still don't think they're 'on par with Space Marines'- I do, however, feel that a force of Sisters and a force of Astartes may be able to functionally perform most of the same mission types, with stealth being excluded.

...and now I kinda want stealth sisters.

I'd say Reivers are more likely to be cutting your face off than pumping bolter shells in to it, since terror troops.

 Melissia wrote:
I'd say Reivers are more likely to be cutting your face off than pumping bolter shells in to it, since terror troops.

I'd say that the 'terror' aspect comes more from the vox-things on their mask. And I'd say that the 'terror' more depends on what bothers you more- watching your buddy get blasted into gibbets, or watching him get cut in half.

 Melissia wrote:

 Nerak wrote:
The ability to filter toxins, change the color of your skin depending on sun intensity, waterbreathing and much more powerfull liver all suggest a space marine could pull off ambushes in the most hazardous environments, such as striking from under water, whilst the sisters are reliant on more straightforward warfare.

... or they just use their vacuum-sealed power armor to do the same thing. Not that either Space Marines or Sisters are particularly well known for relying on striking from hiding; the ones that do are exceptions to the norm (Raven Guard come to mind). A lot of a Space Marine's organs' effects can be, and are, replaced by technology. That said, it is certainly true that Marines can train more extensively with the increased stamina and durability their extra organs and special diet give them. Thus why the average Space Marine has a great deal of skill, and only veteran Sisters with both extensive training and battlefield experience can match them.

While all this is true guerilla warfare supposedly one of the marines 3 main tactics. At least according to 4th ed codex, which might very well have changed since. As I recall they used primarily 1 surgical strikes (drop pod assults), 2 Armoured warfare (tanks and transports) and 3 guerilla warfare. It doesn't get a whole lot of attention though in litterature, not to my knowledge anyway. As for tech replacing the marines inherent abilites the armours must come off at some points. Things like eating needs to be done without the helmet (unless it has some automatic feed system I'm unaware off). I guess you can sleep in a power armour but it's got to be very uncomfortable and porbably lower your battle prowess due to fatigue as a result. This wouldn't be a problem in most warzones but it can certainly be a huge deal in others. I suppose my point is that there's a flexibility to the astartes and their abilities to operate in various forms of warfare while the sisters are much more niched in how they are able to wage war, and more dependant on Imperial supplies.

Space Marines are not human. They tire far less easily, can go for long periods of time without sleep, have better recall, are less psychologically impacted by the horrors of war, don't have familial relationships or 'urges' like a human, and generally have relatively little in the way of interests and hopes and dreams that aren't devoted to war. They can exist in their suits for long periods of time without having to stop to eat or have a wee (not sure how comparable to Sisters they are in that). They are less likely to get injured, and are less impaired by the same injuries (and are more likely to get effective medical treatment and replacement parts).

Added to that they live for a really long time (if not killed in action), and are part of a military organisation with supporting assets focused on getting them into combat fast, and being in combat often.

In short, a Space Marine has huge amounts of combat experience. In the same war zone as a human they will clock up way more combat experience over the same time period. Because they're not taking time out to eat, sleep, bandage wounds, complain about rations, fear for their lives, or worry for their loved ones. And they'll live much longer and have a greater proportion of their lives devoted to war because they don't get old in the way that a human does. And when they're not fighting, they're going to spend way more of their time training for war than a human can because of the difference in their psychology and because they sleep less.

Sisters are better than marines in certain aspects...for example half the Space marines have turned traitor being corrupted by chaos. Last i checked there has NEVER been a Sisters of battles Order ever fall for chaos.

So this is not a clear cut point, there are times space marines kill civilians without a second thought. The Sisters are much more likely to save people rather than kill people. So if your going to be saved in general the Sisters of battle would be a much better choice.

Rebel4ever85 wrote:
Sisters are better than marines in certain aspects...for example half the Space marines have turned traitor being corrupted by chaos. Last i checked there has NEVER been a Sisters of battles Order ever fall for chaos.

I wonder if this is true or if any information of sisters falling to chaos is kept under wraps by the Imperium. There's at least one sister that canonically switched team, is she really the exception or just the only one the Ecclesiarchy couldn't hide?

 Tiennos wrote:
I wonder if this is true or if any information of sisters falling to chaos is kept under wraps by the Imperium. There's at least one sister that canonically switched team, is she really the exception or just the only one the Ecclesiarchy couldn't hide?

The line is there was only one willing fall.

More than one corrupted / possessed sister in the official lore however.

 Tiennos wrote:

Rebel4ever85 wrote:
Sisters are better than marines in certain aspects...for example half the Space marines have turned traitor being corrupted by chaos. Last i checked there has NEVER been a Sisters of battles Order ever fall for chaos.

I wonder if this is true or if any information of sisters falling to chaos is kept under wraps by the Imperium. There's at least one sister that canonically switched team, is she really the exception or just the only one the Ecclesiarchy couldn't hide?

From the SoB Omnibus we learn that any of them that go traitor are covered up by surgically altering a Sister to replace them. All traitor Sisters are officially non existent except one who serves as an example they can fall so they can't be complacent.
Daemonifuge has a load of Sisters falling to corruption but I'm not sure if that's side switching or outright possession.

I know, mechanics again.

But since 6's always save, and 6's always wound, a sister with enough 6's in the Miracle Dice pool can kill anything one on one, not just marines.

Marines may have better training and transhuman physiology and all that tripe, but miracles come from the Emperor himself and only Sisters get them.

Fluff is great, but where it contradicts rules, it is incorrect. If the game was based on the fiction, it would be a different story, but in GW's case, the fiction is based on the game.

PenitentJake wrote:


Fluff is great, but where it contradicts rules, it is incorrect. If the game was based on the fiction, it would be a different story, but in GW's case, the fiction is based on the game.

But is it?

The fluff is the lore, the tabletop is a representation of the universe. An innacurate and incomplete one. The "rules" are an attempt to formalize the fluff to be representative of a battle, not be prescriptive. The rules are merely descriptive.

I'd say the fluff vastly outweighs the rules innterms of "whats correct", even if it is blatantly self contradictory. Plot armour and "because the script needs it to happen" be damned.

PenitentJake wrote:
I know, mechanics again.

But since 6's always save, and 6's always wound, a sister with enough 6's in the Miracle Dice pool can kill anything one on one, not just marines.

Marines may have better training and transhuman physiology and all that tripe, but miracles come from the Emperor himself and only Sisters get them.

Fluff is great, but where it contradicts rules, it is incorrect. If the game was based on the fiction, it would be a different story, but in GW's case, the fiction is based on the game.

That is the exact opposite of how things work.

So how do you manage the wild inconsistency? Are Eldar faster walkers than guardsmen or the same speed? How do they decide whose turn it is to fight in a planetary scale? The idea that game mechanics override fluff is ridiculous.

I see the point, fluff is, at the best of times somewhat inseparable from the mechanics. Sorry if it seems like derailing the thread- I will bend it back... Promise.

Allow me to clarify my stance:

Lord of the Rings was a novel first. Where the movie contradicts the book, the movie is wrong, because the book is the original intellectual property. The game could be explicitly based on either the book or the movie, or it could try to be true to both (very hard; they'd literally have to avoid depicting anything where the movie and the book differ). In either case, if it contradicts its basis, then it is wrong.

So let's be clear on fluff, because there's some grey here. Fluff has always been included in the rules material, and that fluff is cannon until retconned, at which point the retcon becomes the new cannon.

40K novels, however, did not exist before Rogue trader. They are written by people who, in many cases, are disconnected from the ongoing development and maintenance of the actual intellectual property upon which their work is based.

This is not to say that all of the information in the novels is invalid- the vast majority of it is valid because it is consistent with the information contained in the rule books. It's only in cases of contradiction where this is an issue. And, of course, all of it meets GW's standards and thus has their tacit seal of approval.

But consider the fact that fiction is susceptible to the phenomenon of the unreliable narrator in a way that rules are not. Whether or not Marines move too fast for the human eye really depends on the human who's narrating, but that marine's 6" move stat is objective truth.

Eldar do walk 17.3% faster than guardsmen, and banshees walk faster than other Eldar. By inconsistencies, I assume you mean members of a species who don't fit the norms. Are there overweight Eldar who don't walk as fast as their kin? Probably; but those Eldar don't become guardians or aspect warriors.

If you mean inconsistencies in the rules, you'll have to give me specifics, because Eldar being faster walkers than humans is not an inconsistency; it's well established by rules, background in official gaming books and the novels.

Marines are physically stronger than sisters (until the sister prays) and physically tougher (until she prays) but they don't walk faster (even when she prays). There are circumstances, usually related to training, that may allow variations; these are represented on the table by strategems, and probably can be made to account for many of the superhuman scenes depicted in novels. Bolter Discipline is training, and it is a huge advantage for marines- again, represented in rules, background and novels.

Primaris take things to a whole other level- if the discussion was about a sister vs. a primaris, I wouldn't even be questioning the marine superiority. Even with the Emperor backing us up, a Primaris is going to curb stomp our girls all day long.