Should I be worried about prejudice with gaming because I’m not a guy?

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**Adeptus Doritos**

Karol wrote:
..And my entry in to the hobby was getting tricked in to buying GK. Stuff like that never happens to people who have older brothers or cousins already playing at the store. Or at least never happened through the 2 years, I have played w40k.

Did you like them, at least? I mean, I'm always the type of guy that when someone asks what army they should play, I always tell them "the ones you think are the coolest". The one guy I know that didn't listen to me and actually bought the 'competitive' army that a competitive player advised him to buy- well, let's just say to this day he still tells me the best thing he's ever done is sell off that Tau army and just buy Black Templars. Sure, he doesn't win as much... but there's also a lot to be said about actually thinking your army is cool and liking what they are.

Karol wrote:
... Cracov aka the city of knifes....

This has my attention.

Although, because reality is boring I'm assuming that this isn't because there's plenty of great knives for sale at bargain prices.

**dream archipelago**

Welcome to the hobby! It can be pricey, but very satisfying with the painting and lore etc. Like others have said, you should be fine, but it really depends on your store/area; you just can't predict these things.

If I compare, for example, Dungeons & Dragons, Magic: The Gathering, and Warhammer 40k (the big three as such), I'd say I find DnD to be the most toxic community, some real vile people into that stuff (and I think 5th edition is utter crap to boot). There are certainly some characters into Warhammer though, but at the same time you won't struggle to find well-adjusted, nice, and friendly people into it either. Hope you have a good experience with it, I think as you can see on this forum the people are welcoming and helpful and happy to have new people get into the hobby.

**stratigo**

Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Short answer:

No. Not if you're there to play and have fun. That's all the overwhelming majority of gamers ask. My gaming group is a pretty solid mix. All I've ever expected is "Play fair, have fun, wash your ass".

Generally your 'creepiest' people are mentally ill. That, or they're the ones that try extra hard to convince you they're not the creepy ones, they're here to protect m'lady aaaaand now he's sniffing your purse.

Don't listen to the horror stories. Most of them are flat-out fabrications from people trying to get attention, or to make you feel like you need them to protect you. Notice how a lot of folks' "horrible group of gamers" that are actually racists, sexists, and all manner of terrible people... well, they're never willing to name the location. You'd think that'd be a pretty important piece of information for the rest of us, right? And they keep going back. Odd thing, that.

Honestly, I game in a place where you'd probably expect us to be a bunch of horrible backwards people (even though my game group is quite varied with LGBT, all races, and at one time about half women)- and if someone's a jerk to a person because they're a woman... that might actually bring out the worst of our traits. Most gals are treated like sisters.

To be fair, you've got an advantage. As a woman you can burn some dude's ego a lot worse than most of us can, and anything he does will make him just look even worse.

Just wash your ass, don't cheat, and have fun.

Seriously, wash your ass. I can't stress this enough.

EDIT: You'll get guys that flirt with you. That's gonna happen. You're a grown woman, from the looks of it, so you know how to deal with that at this point. A lot of people will freak out and act like that's some big terrible thing that should never happen to you, but it's not. It's natural. It's not the 'wrong kind of attention'. It's human nature. Some of them are going to be unattractive and undesirable, and that just happens. It happens to most normal guys, too- if they have a social life. So you just have to learn to manage it, it's part of being an adult.

I'm dating a woman I met in a gaming establishment. I thought she was attractive and interesting, so I went up to her and started talking to her. I made it clear I was interested a bit later. It worked out. Have other guys hit on her? Damned right they have, and I'm not the least bit mad because none of them knew about us- she's a beautiful woman, she's charming, she's hilarious, and she's got fun interests. What single, heterosexual man in his right mind wouldn't approach her? It's a gaming shop, not the workplace (actually it was my workplace but I wasn't on the clock).

Don't let the pearl-clutchers and panic-peddlers ruin your expectations of gaming, miss. You'll do fine.

You'll be shocked to find that "Warhammer is for everyone", and honestly it always has been. That ain't a new concept.

If you find yourself in a place where you are treated differently (in a negative way), I highly suggest you just leave. Let it rot. You're not missing anything. And do come back and tell us what the location was so we can all avoid it, ridicule them, and watch the place financially collapse in on itself.

Because seriously, I'm dying to know what these places are, because all the horror stories seem to be really intent on keeping this information a protected secret.

I read this post and all I can say is... yikes.

"All the stories about bigotry is lies! They never name locations". Maybe cause some of us are afraid of retribution from the bigots in those locations?

"Just accept that you'll be propositioned even when you don't want to be. That's just the lot of women".

This post here is bigotry defense 101

**Grimtuff**

Why do you think I have that clown on ignore? Please don't quote him in future so I don't need to see that gak and just report it.

**Not Online!!!**

Grimtuff wrote:
Why do you think I have that clown on ignore? Please don't quote him in future so I don't need to see that gak and just report it.

for what exactly?

**AdmiralHalsey**

Lots of people will likely try or want to sleep with you.

It's unlikely they'll be dicks to you however, and if the above makes you uncomfortble I would _hope_ there would be some more gentlemanly sorts that put an end to such behaviour.

As everyone has said it depends on your local meta.

9/10 are fine. 1/10 people you don't want to play with anyway.

**Grimtuff**

Not Online!!! wrote:
Grimtuff wrote:
Why do you think I have that clown on ignore? Please don't quote him in future so I don't need to see that gak and just report it.

for what exactly?

That blatant defence of bigotry and it dripping with misogyny? Don't worry, I've reported it anyway.

**Not Online!!!**

Grimtuff wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Grimtuff wrote:
Why do you think I have that clown on ignore? Please don't quote him in future so I don't need to see that gak and just report it.

for what exactly?

That blatant defence of bigotry and it dripping with misogyny? Don't worry, I've reported it anyway.

Erm, what?
What about it was bigoted?

What was misogynistic?

All i see, is a bad joke initially, stereotyping the TT Gamer community.

Now to the second claim, he pointed out his subjective experience in his local group, which seems to be highly antagonistic against behaviour you claim him to have?

The third bits, just personal hygiene suggestion, which seems to be an issue for some in the hobby, beeing of the more social akward side of the spectrum?

As for the edit: He could've just stated that clear communication solves (nearly) all the issues regardless of gender of the persons involved and attraction. I get it we gamers have a bad rep and some higher (probably) overlap with social akward people , Heck i 've been hit on , akwardly, by guys / gals, etc. normally people can and prefer a clear "not interested in you in that way" above other ways?

I ifnd it more disturbing that you two seem to insinuate that gals can't stand up for themselves and therefore need to be treated like "special " people protected at all times instead of just fellow gamers and hobbiests.

**aphyon**

Grimtuff wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Grimtuff wrote:
Why do you think I have that clown on ignore? Please don't quote him in future so I don't need to see that gak and just report it.

for what exactly?

That blatant defence of bigotry and it dripping with misogyny? Don't worry, I've reported it anyway.

Funny, i thought you were ignoring him.

**Grimtuff**

Not Online!!! wrote:

I ifnd it more disturbing that you two seem to insinuate that gals can't stand up for themselves and therefore need to be treated like "special " people protected at all times instead of just fellow gamers and hobbiests.

Gals, what is this? The 1950s?

Where did I say that? Go on, I'll wait. I've made 1 post ITT prior to now and nothing indicates what you claim.

**Not Online!!!**

Grimtuff wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:

I ifnd it more disturbing that you two seem to insinuate that gals can't stand up for themselves and therefore need to be treated like "special " people protected at all times instead of just fellow gamers and hobbiests.

Gals, what is this? The 1950s?

Where did I say that? Go on, I'll wait. I've made 1 post ITT prior to now and nothing indicates what you claim.

I explained perfectly why i think you do ,
Infact the second Post literally is a Personal attack on him without anything read seemingly, then a Report , which is questionable in lieu of the actual Post in question, unless i am missing something entirely since english is not my native tongue, but i doubt that aswell.

**AdmiralHalsey**

And this is why we can't have nice things.

I strongly suspect a lock, and not to mention the OP reading your bickering and becoming disheartened about the sorts of people we are.

Good job team.

**stratigo**

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
And this is why we can't have nice things.

I strongly suspect a lock, and not to mention the OP reading your bickering and becoming disheartened about the sorts of people we are.

Good job team.

I mean, people showing up to show off their defenses of bigotry is kind of an answer to the question.

**aphyon**

stratigo wrote:
AdmiralHalsey wrote:
And this is why we can't have nice things.

I strongly suspect a lock, and not to mention the OP reading your bickering and becoming disheartened about the sorts of people we are.

Good job team.

I mean, people showing up to show off their defenses of bigotry is kind of an answer to the question.

Remember that we have people here from all over the world from all sorts of cultures. by definition the term is subjective to where and what type of group each of us is accustomed to.

keep it civil.

**Bonegrinder**

Vector Strike wrote:
I've only seen people not liking girls playing this (or any other) game in the internet. All physical stores I've been never had a problem with guys and girls interacting.

And this topic made me remember this

Spoiler:

I always prefer this classic version of the same joke

Spoiler:

**Sim-Life**

stratigo wrote:
AdmiralHalsey wrote:
And this is why we can't have nice things.

I strongly suspect a lock, and not to mention the OP reading your bickering and becoming disheartened about the sorts of people we are.

Good job team.

I mean, people showing up to show off their defenses of bigotry is kind of an answer to the question.

Inigomontoyayoukeepusingthatword.jpg

**aphyon**

Yes bonegrinder TSOLR is the best, you forgot the next panel where she kicked their butt.

**glados**

Naturally we expect 40k themed Simpsons memes

**JNAProductions**

Mistresspaige wrote:
So I’m new to 40k and tabletop gaming in general but am a fast learner and have stared snooping around for local gaming groups where I can start playing. I am kind of nervous though as whilst I’m sure it’s not as bad of an issue as say a decade ago is their still stigma to women playing 40k on her lonesome? I’m aware this hobby is more male orientated but I’m optimistic that regardless I will still be treated fairly and be welcomed into the group. If not though do you guys have any advice for me? What should I expect and be aware of in general with 40k gaming groups and how can I best go about earning the respect of my fellow gamers and modellers? I really don’t want to be seen as “the girl” in the group and simply be treated like everyone else.

It's gonna depend on your local scene. I've got a lady who frequents my GW and she's treated as an awesome painter, because she is. And outside that... Nah, that's about it. Her being a woman doesn't really matter.

I hope that your FLGS is like mine, and has a positive, inclusive attitude. If not, though, remember that no gaming is better than bad gaming. If people are making you feel bad, or harassing you, or anything like that, as fun as gaming is, it ain't worth it.

Good luck, and have fun!

**Adeptus Doritos**

stratigo wrote:
"All the stories about bigotry is lies! They never name locations". Maybe cause some of us are afraid of retribution from the bigots in those locations?

You ever thought that maybe there are other gamers out there that won't stand for this? Or maybe other gamers that shouldn't have to experience it by you hiding it? You don't have to drop your own identity to expose a nasty business. This happens all the time. And in 2020, where bigotry seems to be less popular that leprosy, I'm not sure I buy the idea of a local mob of tabletop nerds acting like brownshirts with impunity is a credible narrative.

And that which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

stratigo wrote:
"Just accept that you'll be propositioned even when you don't want to be. That's just the lot of women".

This post here is bigotry defense 101

"If people like you they will take an interest in you, and they will want to get to know you". That's something every adult human being with any degree of social experiences in literally any part of the world can tell you.

You do realize that... women also talk to men, right? And sometimes men aren't interested in those women, yeah? That... rejecting another person's advances is a part of adult life, and it's only a problem if they persist, right? You are understanding that human beings engaging one another, and finding others attractive is a natural human thing, right?

And if taking an interest in another human being is 'persecution' of some sort, then... well, I feel very sad for you.

Grimtuff wrote:
Gals, what is this? The 1950s?

"Womenfolk" seemed a bit out of touch with modern life. You're overreacting. And I'm on 'ignore', but I'm pretty sure you're reading this anyway and looking for a reason to report the response. Knock yourself out.

I'll let the mods sort this out. Had a nice conversation with them about this sort of thing recently.

I think it would be extremely worth the mods' time to evaluate some sort of response to flagrant abuses of the report system as well. Perhaps that could cut down on the mountain of reports they have to sift through.

Not Online!!! wrote:
The third bits, just personal hygiene suggestion, which seems to be an issue for some in the hobby, beeing of the more social akward side of the spectrum?

There wouldn't be signs up in multiple shops if it wasn't a concern. Also, considering there's some kind of coof going around right now- there's a bit more to the concern than discomfort.

Not Online!!! wrote:
I ifnd it more disturbing that you two seem to insinuate that gals can't stand up for themselves and therefore need to be treated like "special " people protected at all times instead of just fellow gamers and hobbiests.

Few things disturb me more than the idea of being inclusive and friendly towards people different from yourself requires you to treat them like mentally defective children, and not like adult human beings.

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
Istrongly suspect a lock, and not to mention the OP reading your bickering and becoming disheartened about the sorts of people we are.

Nah, keep it rolling.

It'll do wonders to make my point. I don't even need to say anything else. Let her see what people are really like. Let's put on a proper spectacle for her.

**chaos0xomega**

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
And this is why we can't have nice things.

I strongly suspect a lock, and not to mention the OP reading your bickering and becoming disheartened about the sorts of people we are.

Good job team.

Agreed. I think we were doing okay for about a page and a half and then it all went to hell. Hope OP isn't too put off by all this.

**dadx6**

I'd like to reiterate Adeptus Dorito:

1) because you're female you might get hit on, asked out, flirted with, etc. Normally-functioning adult humans know how to make clear that they are uninterested. Or they tolerate this behavior with mild amusement. Males might also get hit on, but that is less common in my experience.

2) as long as you shower before you go to the store for gaming, and use deodorant, everything should be great. Take a pack of gum in case your opponent has dogbreath and doesn't know it. You might end up playing a game or several against opponents who aren't aware of this guideline. Usually giving them 4+ feet of personal space solves the problem. Since the tables are 6x4 usually, just stay on the opposite side from them, if it comes to it.

And as another Dakkanaut posted, if you're looking for offense, you'll no doubt find it. If you're looking to play WH40K and have fun, you can no doubt do that as well.

Welcome to the hobby!

**Adeptus Doritos**

dadx6 wrote:
I'd like to reiterate Adeptus Dorito:

1) because you're female you might get hit on, asked out, flirted with, etc. Normally-functioning adult humans know how to make clear that they are uninterested. Or they tolerate this behavior with mild amusement. Males might also get hit on, but that is less common in my experience.

2) as long as you shower before you go to the store for gaming, and use deodorant, everything should be great. Take a pack of gum in case your opponent has dogbreath and doesn't know it. You might end up playing a game or several against opponents who aren't aware of this guideline. Usually giving them 4+ feet of personal space solves the problem. Since the tables are 6x4 usually, just stay on the opposite side from them, if it comes to it.

Alternatively- and hear me out here:

If you disregard #2, #1 isn't going to be a problem.

Modern problems require modern solutions.

**chaos0xomega**

I really want to know in what reality do you guys think some of this advice is even remotely helpful or anything other than off-putting.

**Not Online!!!**

Adeptus Doritos wrote:
dadx6 wrote:
I'd like to reiterate Adeptus Dorito:

1) because you're female you might get hit on, asked out, flirted with, etc. Normally-functioning adult humans know how to make clear that they are uninterested. Or they tolerate this behavior with mild amusement. Males might also get hit on, but that is less common in my experience.

2) as long as you shower before you go to the store for gaming, and use deodorant, everything should be great. Take a pack of gum in case your opponent has dogbreath and doesn't know it. You might end up playing a game or several against opponents who aren't aware of this guideline. Usually giving them 4+ feet of personal space solves the problem. Since the tables are 6x4 usually, just stay on the opposite side from them, if it comes to it.

Alternatively- and hear me out here:

If you disregard #2, #1 isn't going to be a problem.

Modern problems require modern solutions.

please don't.

the majority would not want number 1 anyways at the game store, they want a fine match that is fair and fun, which is subjective of course, but if you disregard NR2 then we all get real issues really fast, especially in lieu of what is going around right now.

**Blndmage**

As a girl who's been playing 40k for a while, expect misogyny, patriarchal BS, and much of the standard worries when entering a male dominated community.
Expect intimidation.

**Adeptus Doritos**

Blndmage wrote:
As a girl who's been playing 40k for a while, expect misogyny, patriarchal BS, and much of the standard worries when entering a male dominated community.
Expect intimidation.

Where do you encounter this?

I'd love to shame them. Name some establishments and I'll gladly have your back and help put an end to this.

**Not Online!!!**

Personally i think Name and boycott to be better then to lower ones own Standards to that "Level".

**Adeptus Doritos**

Not Online!!! wrote:
Personally i think Name and boycott to be better then to lower ones own Standards to that "Level".

Oh, absolutely.

Anyone who doesn't think that's effective has never seen a Google Review destroy a business.

EDIT: Honestly, though- I'm not going to dig too deep into questioning anyone's experiences. I'll let trends speak for themselves. I'll just say that the horror stories always seem to be on the internet, from angry people, and I'm skeptical of what I see online. I'll gladly boycott a business that's being scummy, and help spread the word about it. Hell, if I can verify it, I'm pretty sure working at an FLGS- I can help you find that shop's distributors and you can use that information.

**Unusual Suspect**

Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Blndmage wrote:
As a girl who's been playing 40k for a while, expect misogyny, patriarchal BS, and much of the standard worries when entering a male dominated community.
Expect intimidation.

Where do you encounter this?

I'd love to shame them. Name some establishments and I'll gladly have your back and help put an end to this.

Hmmm. Where would a woman expect misogyny, patriarchal BS, and much of the standard worries when entering a male dominated community?

Probably in a male-dominated community. Kinda says it on the Tin, doesn't it?

WH40k isn't the only one, it wasn't the first, it won't be the last. I don't think it's even the worst (though it's definitely not one of the best, IMO, compared to some of its competition). But it IS a male-dominated community, and even reasonable, good folks can be blind to things that are blatantly obvious to others.

People don't have to be a mustache-twirling villain (or, in the context of this case, a cheetos-tinged groping Neckbeard) to be misogynistic or perform patriarchal BS. They just need to be ignorant and/or unaware. And when it comes to both of those, where a lot of it has been baked into society/culture so long we can't see it two feet in front of our noses... well, it's easy. It's very easy.

But that's the power of the Status Quo. It has horrifying amounts of momentum, even if it's headed in the wrong direction. "Nothing needs to be done" is a helluva drug, so to speak.

But if you aren't a woman yourself, and you don't talk to women about this sort of thing with an open mind (not directed at you specifically, AD, your approach seemed open-minded), you might not have a good idea of just how scary and intimidating male-dominated communities can be.

Even when they're friendly. Sometimes especially when they're overly friendly. The stories my women friends have told are... disturbing. And stress-inducing.

To the OP:

In the gaming communities I've been a part of, most of the folks involved were reasonably well-behaved folks. It skewed young and male. There were a couple of creepy guys, but fortunately, enough players that I didn't have to play them more than once.

Do whatever you need to do to feel safe. The bigger the store, the more likely you are to find compatible gamers to play with, and the better chance you have to be selective about who you'll play with (because you having fun is important, and what you enjoy may not match what is fun for others).

It would probably be worth taking a friend or two the first few times you visit, or asking the Store Owner (who most definitely wants their store to be as Inclusive and Inviting and PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD FEEL COMFORTABLE ENOUGH TO COME BACK AND BUY STUFF as reasonably possible) to recommend some regulars that they know will be a good LGS Ambassador.

Hopefully things work well, or at the very least, that you're safe. Good luck!