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It is still awefully convenient that alot of These horrorstories never really Name a place. Which would be the least people should expect if only to actually be able to avoid them.

Not Online!!! wrote:
It is still awefully convenient that alot of These horrorstories never really Name a place. Which would be the least people should expect if only to actually be able to avoid them.

How can we expect to believe people are being harassed if they don't tell us their location on a public internet forum?

Fine.
Everything Games in Langford, B.C.

After being super clear about having my back, the owner hid behind BS.

I was contacted by a patron after an event (literally woke up to it the next morning.), insulted, threatened, and promised more of the same if I was seen in the store.

I went directly to the owner, shared everything, and asked that the person be, at least, banned from the FB group, at most banned from the store. He wouldn't go for either and said "because it didn't happen in the store, he couldn't do anything."
When I countered with "So you want me to come to the store and knowingly suffer before you'll do anything?"
His answer "Yes."
My wife even when down to the store to speak in person with him (I haven't set foot in it since it happened in February 2019), and spoke with him about it on recording. Same BS. "I don't want to alienate my biggest patrons."

Legitimately surprised this thread is still here and not locked yet.

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
But if you aren't a woman yourself, and you don't talk to women about this sort of thing with an open mind (not directed at you specifically, AD, your approach seemed open-minded), you might not have a good idea of just how scary and intimidating male-dominated communities can be.

Even when they're friendly. Sometimes especially when they're overly friendly. The stories my women friends have told are... disturbing. And stress-inducing.

Being around people who are different from you and doing something unfamiliar and new can be very intimidating, I'm sure.

This is why I advocate treating people like they're... just regular people. Start treating women like delicate snowflakes and you'll probably drive them away faster, in my experience.

 Blndmage wrote:

Spoiler:

Fine.
Everything Games in Langford, B.C.

After being super clear about having my back, the owner hid behind BS.

I was contacted by a patron after an event (literally woke up to it the next morning.), insulted, threatened, and promised more of the same if I was seen in the store.

I went directly to the owner, shared everything, and asked that the person be, at least, banned from the FB group, at most banned from the store. He wouldn't go for either and said "because it didn't happen in the store, he couldn't do anything."
When I countered with "So you want me to come to the store and knowingly suffer before you'll do anything?"
His answer "Yes."
My wife even when down to the store to speak in person with him (I haven't set foot in it since it happened in February 2019), and spoke with him about it on recording. Same BS. "I don't want to alienate my biggest patrons."

Thank you, this is perfect. All I needed to know.

And if it blows back on you... well, I don't think it'll be a concern.

Just doing my due diligence- you have any idea what the patron's deal was? Like, what set them off? Or just some random crazy?

Just so you know- if they are threatening you via messages, you should take that to the police immediately.

Also, if your conflict didn't start in the store- well, the store owner's responsibility is to keep the drama out of the store. He can't ban someone just because you had a squabble with them elsewhere, unless it's high-visibility- and it can be: If this were some kind of message through Facebook- I recommend taking it and using it to show others what kind of person this player is. Your evidence has collected itself, actually. (No, I don't think you should show that here)

I work in a FLGS. We have customers that don't get along outside the store, and ask us to do something- if it doesn't happen in the store, we can't ban them from the store. We also can't go on a person's word alone. If they bring the drama to the store, we warn them to cool it. If they can't, then the instigator gets banned.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
But if you aren't a woman yourself, and you don't talk to women about this sort of thing with an open mind (not directed at you specifically, AD, your approach seemed open-minded), you might not have a good idea of just how scary and intimidating male-dominated communities can be.

Even when they're friendly. Sometimes especially when they're overly friendly. The stories my women friends have told are... disturbing. And stress-inducing.

Being around people who are different from you and doing something unfamiliar and new can be very intimidating, I'm sure.

This is why I advocate treating people like they're... just regular people. Start treating women like delicate snowflakes and you'll probably drive them away faster, in my experience.

This doesn't seem to acknowledge the very different experience (and how appropriate being intimidated is, within context) that some people have.

Acknowledging and dealing with that context is no more treating someone "like a delicate snowflake" than acknowledging and dealing with, say, the inability of a storefront to handle wheelchair patrons, or non-speaking patrons, or non-hearing patrons. It is not insulting or patronizing for a store to actively work to accommodate that. You aren't being an donkey-cave by making sure there's wheelchair access.

Where you can treat them like everyone else, because they are actually treated like everyone else, is fine. I welcome it.

Sometimes treating them like everyone else isn't appropriate, because context changes the nature of that treatment.

the more I read, the more I try to understand all of this, all of the vitriol on these boards, the more I think I am just glad to stay in my perfect little gaming community.

Everything from how much GW is just awful, to stuff like this, I don't know how it is in your communities, but in mine, people who act like crap towards other people get ousted from the community pretty quickly. My group of gamers is really good people. My best friend and his wife play DND at the store with my wife and me and my other best friend from grade school. We have a couple of female gamers, and a couple of LGBTQAAIP+ gamers and no none gives a crap. Literally, no one cares. We sit around and I, as a 6'1" 2nd amendment loving redneck conservative have wonderful conversations with people who are VERY different from me.

I have them over to my house, we play games on Sundays, we all chip in and order pizza, we go to movies together, we all communicate daily in our group chat that has (i think) 24 or 25 members in it now.

We all don't agree. We don't have too. We know that we are all different and we get along because the common factor is the love of a miniatures game and a universe that we enjoy. We know that there are plenty of reasons to argue, and I would, of course, be lying if I said I got along with everybody just the same because I don't, people are all different and I click better with some more than others, but we still get along and enjoy the hobby with each other.

Warhammer is for everyone, it always has been in the 20 years I've been playing it.

If you have experienced some kind of poor treatment by the community or by the game stores and such, make that known and file charges if it is possible. It shouldn't be tolerated, at any point, and by anyone.

But part of me honestly has to wonder how much of the poor treatment people get is actually poor treatment and how much of it is based on hypersensitivity. I know for me, especially when I'm talking to people of different lifestyles, I have had to explain myself a few times because something I said didn't sit right or came across wrong. It was not through intent, and thankfully, after an honest apology and some discussion, the issues resolved, but there is a very real concern about saying the wrong thing, or not saying the right thing, and we do live in a world where sensitivity to what is being said and how it's being said is and can easily be misconstrued or misunderstood, especially when you are dealing with the deeper and darker topics of the WH40k universe, like xenophobia, religious extremism, fundamentalist behaviors, and the like.

I am a Child Protective Services agent. I see gak daily that would keep most people up at night, and the people whom it wouldn't have seen worse. I play games because they're fun and I love the universe, and anyone who loves it with me is welcome into the group.

I have traveled all across the western hemisphere for my previous work, everywhere from Brazil, Chile, Venezuela, Panama, Mexico, Puerto Rico, you name it. Everywhere I have been that I could find a gaming group, I have yet to encounter people just openly treating others in the hobby poorly. I have always been met with relatively open arms, even in places where you wouldn't think of it.

Sorry for the long-winded reply, but I am truly aghast by the degree of hatred or hurt that is on here sometimes. this thread really kind of highlights that.

OP, play the game and enjoy it. Find a good group of folk who like to play, enjoy the hobby, wanna throw dice, and sling brushes. If you do encounter the gaks of the world out there, then deal with them either by social avoidance or by going to the police if the behavior warrants it. Let the game store owner know, and if they refuse, then they don't deserve your business, but I truly believe, in my experience as a child protective services agency, that most, the overwhelmingly vast majority of people just want to be decent people and have fun enjoying the thing that will bring you together with them.

the_scotsman wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
It is still awefully convenient that alot of These horrorstories never really Name a place. Which would be the least people should expect if only to actually be able to avoid them.

How can we expect to believe people are being harassed if they don't tell us their location on a public internet forum?

Well it makes it hard to check if they don't lie. And from my expiriance people lie all the time, specialy if that can give them an edge over others.
Plus if the location was that bad, and harasment really did happen there, wouldn't you want people to know about it, so they accidently don't go there and get harasssed too. If someone who comes to our town for holidays decides he is going to go to specific places around here, we tell them not to go too, sometimes even before they say they would want to visit those places, because they are dangerous even to the locals, and even if they go there in groups.

Not Online!!! wrote:
What about it was bigoted?

What was misogynistic?

Yeah I'm having trouble reading that into his post as well.

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
Sometimes treating them like everyone else isn't appropriate, because context changes the nature of that treatment.

Well, of course someone with disabilities needs some degree of accommodation. I'm not expecting some dude in a wheelchair to play at a table that comes up to my stomach, or a deaf person to be able to hear me ask what a unit's toughness is when his back is turned, or a Tau player to talk without using sound effects and hand gestures (Sorry, had to do it- I love you guys that stay dedicated to that army despite all the trash we talk)


However, "woman" isn't a disability.

Believe it or not, most of them are a lot like guys except most of the time, they have different anatomy (note: don't ask to compare anatomy, it's impolite) and sometimes they smell nicer (Note: Do not do comparison sniffs, it's also impolite). Generally speaking, if a woman (or anyone at all for that matter) wants to come and play a game with your community, well- they want to come play a game with your community. They're not really asking for you to all drop down and change everything to make things more delicate for them- although, you shouldn't be a jerk and start trash-talking someone when you first meet them like they've been a part of your group for years. Be a welcoming, nice person to every person that shows an interest and you can't go wrong.

I'm reminded of a recent experience where a customer took it upon themselves to 'help' a lady that was taking an interest in 40k. For some reason, most women I know love Tyranids or Nurgle Daemons and she was set on the Tyranids. However, this 'helpful guy' was pushing Sisters of Battle at her, despite her having no interest in them. I guess in his mind he was thinking, "Hey you're a lady, obviously you want to play with plastic ladies, cause y'all both have boobs or something". Almost lost that sale until I went and intervened- managed to actually sell Start Collecting Tyranids and Genestealer Cults (she took an interest in Necromunda, due to a weekly event we had going on).

Karol wrote:
Well it makes it hard to check if they don't lie. And from my expiriance people lie all the time, specialy if that can give them an edge over others.
Plus if the location was that bad, and harasment really did happen there, wouldn't you want people to know about it, so they accidently don't go there and get harasssed too.

It's a sad fact that people lie. People lie a lot on the internet. For years we were warned "don't trust everyone on the internet" and suddenly in the last few years that kinda went out the window. I'm not saying, "Call them a liar", but I'll say "hear them out, let them tell you their story, be skeptical, and if you can verify their story- do so". How you react to a liar after that is on you, but ... sometimes folks are chasing validation online because they aren't getting that validation from meaningful interpersonal relationships in real life. So... maybe they're insufferable and no one in real life likes them, or maybe they're in need of a real genuine friend to spend real time with them.

And anyone who thinks that lying doesn't happen online- well, get Tinder for a while and I promise you'll find some people who really paint a different image of themselves online. Sometimes with Photoshop.

If there's one thing I believe, it's "The Game Shop is Sacred". And if there's a game shop that's not making someone feel welcome, well... I want to know about it. They're really screwing with the thing that I take seriously, and that's "Gaming is for everyone". The only reason you should feel that a game isn't for you, is if you don't like it. As much drama and bickering there is in the world, I believe you should drop that stuff in the parking lot, stow it in your trunk when you grab your gaming stuff, and come inside and just be a 'gamer'. It's one of the few escapes we have, and we should have that thing to pull us away from the madness of reality.

I know, sentimental feels and whatnot- but look, when you play with someone I think you form a bond. And maybe that person is very different from you otherwise- their political beliefs, their gender, sexuality, race, religion, nationality, whatever- they could be someone that under normal circumstances, you'd not encounter and socialize with- hell, you might not even like them otherwise. But when you do a game, you start to see each other as two people who like the same thing and want to have fun, you start to realize that even if they are different- you've got this in common, and if they like this... well, there's no way they can be that different. And you make friends, the most unlikely friends sometimes.

Unless they don't wash their ass, then you're allowed to dislike them a bit. (Seriously, be nice about it but you can tell someone they may need to step away for a while- and sometimes, you might have to be a little understanding because a bad diet can make someone smell a lot worse when they begin sweating a little. I joke about this, but there's no reason to just be a jerk to someone for something they may not realize. "Escalation" is only required if they refuse to listen and adjust).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Seabass wrote:
I have them over to my house, we play games on Sundays, we all chip in and order pizza

Step up your game and do a pot luck, homie. That's what the cool groups do.

I'm teasing, of course- but we used to do the pizza thing until we started getting spouses and girlfriends that wanted to get competitive with the snacks, and this evolved into all-out potlucks every weekend.

Don't try to balance a Croc Pot on top of a miniatures case. Trust me.

Seabass wrote:
I am a Child Protective Services agent. I see gak daily that would keep most people up at night, and the people whom it wouldn't have seen worse. I play games because they're fun and I love the universe, and anyone who loves it with me is welcome into the group.

I won't say how I know, but I'm close to someone in this line of work- and if anything, you deserve the hell out of a drama-free escape.

I've had them tell me stories that haunted me and had me in tears, hating this toilet Earth we live in. I don't know how you do it, and I've been to war more than once. I would rather do all that over again than spend a month in your profession. Respect.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

Well, of course someone with disabilities needs some degree of accommodation. I'm not expecting some dude in a wheelchair to play at a table that comes up to my stomach, or a deaf person to be able to hear me ask what a unit's toughness is when his back is turned, or a Tau player to talk without using sound effects and hand gestures (Sorry, had to do it- I love you guys that stay dedicated to that army despite all the trash we talk)


However, "woman" isn't a disability.

No, it isn't. It does, however, come with context and baggage, some of it negative, PARTICULARLY in Male-dominated communities. A lot of that context isn't really obvious until you see things from their perspective, and you treat them differently to account for those differences.

Believe it or not, most of them are a lot like guys except most of the time, they have different anatomy (note: don't ask to compare anatomy, it's impolite) and sometimes they smell nicer (Note: Do not do comparison sniffs, it's also impolite). Generally speaking, if a woman (or anyone at all for that matter) wants to come and play a game with your community, well- they want to come play a game with your community. They're not really asking for you to all drop down and change everything to make things more delicate for them- although, you shouldn't be a jerk and start trash-talking someone when you first meet them like they've been a part of your group for years. Be a welcoming, nice person to every person that shows an interest and you can't go wrong.

Have we had this conversation before? This feels of Deja vu.

It isn't about what women are or are not actually different, it's about how women are actually TREATED differently, and the context in which behaviors that are not problematic otherwise can be problematic due to the circumstances and context in which they're found.

Part of providing a welcoming, inclusive environment is making that environment welcoming. For women, that means you need to deal with all the baggage that comes with experiences women tend to have with male-dominated cultures - to not do so is to not create an actually welcoming environment.

I'm not saying you aren't doing that - I don't know you from Adam.

But women, in patriarchal societies with experiences like they tend to have, have every reason to worry. Not acknowledging that context can make what would generally seem like a welcoming environment not, in context, actually welcoming.

I'm reminded of a recent experience where a customer took it upon themselves to 'help' a lady that was taking an interest in 40k. For some reason, most women I know love Tyranids or Nurgle Daemons and she was set on the Tyranids. However, this 'helpful guy' was pushing Sisters of Battle at her, despite her having no interest in them. I guess in his mind he was thinking, "Hey you're a lady, obviously you want to play with plastic ladies, cause y'all both have boobs or something". Almost lost that sale until I went and intervened- managed to actually sell Start Collecting Tyranids and Genestealer Cults (she took an interest in Necromunda, due to a weekly event we had going on).

If you think what I've talked about reminds you of that person, I don't think you're getting what I'm putting down. I think you're trying to paint me with colors that don't match.

I didn't take the UK to be patriarchal?

 Unusual Suspect wrote:

No, it isn't. It does, however, come with context and baggage, some of it negative, PARTICULARLY in Male-dominated communities. A lot of that context isn't really obvious until you see things from their perspective, and you treat them differently to account for those differences.

I don't like to make generalizations about people. I'm not going to assume the woman that walks through the door has never been around a bunch of dudes before.

I mean, it's kinda weird you guys talk about the FLGS like it's worse than the average biker bar. What kinda places are YOU guys at?

 Unusual Suspect wrote:

But women, in patriarchal societies with experiences like they tend to have, have every reason to worry. Not acknowledging that context can make what would generally seem like a welcoming environment not, in context, actually welcoming.

Not for nothing here, and don't take this the wrong way... but you're doing a lotta speaking for women here. But this is me assuming you're a dude, and I've been wrong about genders before.




It's a pretty simple concept: Be nice to people and be welcoming. Whoever they are. That's it. It's not hard. It's not complicated. It's pretty much the default setting for most groups of people.

I'm also of the mind that people are individuals with their own individual experiences and mindsets, and that combination makes every person unique. I'll let that unique individual's personality determine how they should be treated. Show up with a good attitude, wanting to have fun? Awesome. Show up with a nasty attitude looking to cause drama? Kick rocks. I'm not gonna treat every black guy like he's just stumbled out of the ghetto, or a Hispanic person like English isn't their first language, or a Tau Player like he's 11 years old (sorry guys, I still love you)

A good chunk of the women I play with- including the one I date- would be creeped out if you assumed they came from a world of hardship, terror, and abuse and started acting like you were building a safe little cushion of space for them to hide in. They'd probably call you something very unpleasant. One of those things that's actually a lot funnier when it comes from a woman. I say this not speaking on their behalf, but because I've seen them do it.

You keep saying "they have every reason to worry". Well, are you sure about that? Look, tell you what: It's not polite to speak on the moral condition of others that you don't know, even if you are the same gender. If they need to worry around you and your people, then by all means say so- I respect the honesty. But don't sit here and paint every group of guys like we're all just a bunch of Ike Turners and Harvey Weinsteins at Epstein's Island with Cosby Cocktails for all the ladies.

Being real honest here? And trying to be nice about it- I'm sorry if it doesn't seem this way, but I really am: When you talk like that... it's kind of creepy to me. Like, you're trying to paint the whole world of other males as this minefield of gropers and creepers, "But you're safe with me!" It's not your intent, I imagine... but that's the way it comes off and honestly I've never seen it actually make anyone comfortable. Anecdotal, sure- but anyone with that kind of attitude... I'm not going to be around them. Sorry if that sounded too harsh, it's just the nicest way I know to say it, man.

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
If you think what I've talked about reminds you of that person, I don't think you're getting what I'm putting down. I think you're trying to paint me with colors that don't match.

Not a match. A similar hue. You're on the color wheel nearby, at least.

You both made a sweeping generalization about someone and assumed they wanted a certain thing, and never really bothered to let that individual person have a vote in their experience. You just took that away from them, infantilized them, and it comes off as degrading.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

I don't like to make generalizations about people. I'm not going to assume the woman that walks through the door has never been around a bunch of dudes before.

I mean, it's kinda weird you guys talk about the FLGS like it's worse than the average biker bar. What kinda places are YOU guys at?

I'm talking a bit more generally, about the treatment of women in male-dominated communities. WH40k is just one instance of it.

I've never suggested LGSs are hives of scum & villainy. I have suggested they're not uniquely different from the rest of society, which can be pretty F'd up, including towards particular sexes or genders (or other things).

And I find that caution is a perfectly reasonable response to going alone into a male-dominated community, and that accounting for that caution isn't treating women like snowflakes... it's treating people with context appropriate for that context.

Not for nothing here, and don't take this the wrong way... but you're doing a lotta speaking for women here. But this is me assuming you're a dude, and I've been wrong about genders before.

I am passing along the personal experiences of women I know. That includes women I trust, including my sister.

I do, however, have personal experience with issues of femininity in male-dominated communities. Different enough that I feel I can only empathize reasonably well, but close enough that I feel I have an advantage in recognizing it elsewhere.

I can't speak for all women, though.

It's a pretty simple concept: Be nice to people and be welcoming. Whoever they are. That's it. It's not hard. It's not complicated. It's pretty much the default setting for most groups of people.

It can get complicated, because morality and social interactions are complicated. Being nice and welcoming to Nazis is not going to look particularly nice and welcoming to Jews, for example.

gak's complicated, yo. It's easy to treat things like they're simple, it feels very good. Sometimes things aren't.

I'm also of the mind that people are individuals with their own individual experiences and mindsets, and that combination makes every person unique. I'll let that unique individual's personality determine how they should be treated. Show up with a good attitude, wanting to have fun? Awesome. Show up with a nasty attitude looking to cause drama? Kick rocks. I'm not gonna treat every black guy like he's just stumbled out of the ghetto, or a Hispanic person like English isn't their first language, or a Tau Player like he's 11 years old (sorry guys, I still love you)

A good chunk of the women I play with- including the one I date- would be creeped out if you assumed they came from a world of hardship, terror, and abuse and started acting like you were building a safe little cushion of space for them to hide in. They'd probably call you something very unpleasant. One of those things that's actually a lot funnier when it comes from a woman. I say this not speaking on their behalf, but because I've seen them do it.

OK.

You keep saying "they have every reason to worry". Well, are you sure about that? Look, tell you what: It's not polite to speak on the moral condition of others that you don't know, even if you are the same gender. If they need to worry around you and your people, then by all means say so- I respect the honesty. But don't sit here and paint every group of guys like we're all just a bunch of Ike Turners and Harvey Weinsteins at Epstein's Island with Cosby Cocktails for all the ladies.

Not what I've done. Saying men like that exist, and that many women have had horrible experiences with men like that, is not painting every group of guys like that. It provides the context for which interactions begin, though. It's why being welcoming is important, and why the way you're welcoming is important.

I'm not suggesting, nor have I ever suggested, what I suspect you've imagined to be some sort of gilded cage with fawning or something. I hope I'm wrong, because that'd be an absurd strawman.

Being real honest here? And trying to be nice about it- I'm sorry if it doesn't seem this way, but I really am: When you talk like that... it's kind of creepy to me. Like, you're trying to paint the whole world of other males as this minefield of gropers and creepers, "But you're safe with me!" It's not your intent, I imagine... but that's the way it comes off and honestly I've never seen it actually make anyone comfortable. Anecdotal, sure- but anyone with that kind of attitude... I'm not going to be around them. Sorry if that sounded too harsh, it's just the nicest way I know to say it, man.

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
If you think what I've talked about reminds you of that person, I don't think you're getting what I'm putting down. I think you're trying to paint me with colors that don't match.

Not a match. A similar hue. You're on the color wheel nearby, at least.

You're mistaken about me. And again, painting me with a pretty ugly brush there. If you can't refrain, having a civil conversation is going to be hard.

I'm a bit late, but I'd like to remind everyone that the GW community practically split down the middle like a month ago because GW said that bigotry isn't okay and and vast swathes of the player base were massively offended by that concept, to the point that there is a coordianted effort going on right now to organize alt-righters who have never even heard of Warhammer to pretend to boycott it.

You're welcome to disagree.

I just won't be getting behind the generalizing and assuming that everyone who isn't like me has had it rough, is weaker than me, and can't handle a relatively normal social situation. Everyone's got their hang-ups, there's an awkward situation out there for all of us. Most people aren't stumbling into those situations completely clueless.

I don't expect anything but awkward when I go into Victoria's Secret alone to pick out a gift for someone.



You do you, man. Whatever works where you're at, if it's not bothering anyone- keep doing it. What I'm doing works where I'm at and where I've been, so I don't intend to deviate from it.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I'm a bit late, but I'd like to remind everyone that the GW community practically split down the middle like a month ago because GW said that bigotry isn't okay and and vast swathes of the player base were massively offended by that concept.

This confused me.

1- Not sure why that would offend anyone

2- Not sure why it needed to be said like it was a brand new concept

Up next, GW announces we shouldn't stick metal forks in light sockets.

Sadly Adeptus Doritos, Some people need to be told regularly or they forgot.

For me there is one guy where i regular play i am uncomfortable with him behind me, and wont be in the same room as without another friend there.

And often these guys hide behind there buddys, they didnt see and they just dont think he would every do anything like that.
And will whine endlessly about SJW and how they are just being opressed when they are not included.
Making it extremely difficult to put distance from them, and harassers know it.
Endless denability, and mounting as much of the burden as they can onto friends.

This has taken a bit of a turn where i thought it was going positive. Really i think most people in this community have been great, it just sucks that for me. Its basically one that accounts for all my anxiety.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

stratigo wrote:
"All the stories about bigotry is lies! They never name locations". Maybe cause some of us are afraid of retribution from the bigots in those locations?

You ever thought that maybe there are other gamers out there that won't stand for this? Or maybe other gamers that shouldn't have to experience it by you hiding it? You don't have to drop your own identity to expose a nasty business. This happens all the time. And in 2020, where bigotry seems to be less popular that leprosy, I'm not sure I buy the idea of a local mob of tabletop nerds acting like brownshirts with impunity is a credible narrative.

And that which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

stratigo wrote:
"Just accept that you'll be propositioned even when you don't want to be. That's just the lot of women".

This post here is bigotry defense 101

"If people like you they will take an interest in you, and they will want to get to know you". That's something every adult human being with any degree of social experiences in literally any part of the world can tell you.

You do realize that... women also talk to men, right? And sometimes men aren't interested in those women, yeah? That... rejecting another person's advances is a part of adult life, and it's only a problem if they persist, right? You are understanding that human beings engaging one another, and finding others attractive is a natural human thing, right?

And if taking an interest in another human being is 'persecution' of some sort, then... well, I feel very sad for you.

 Grimtuff wrote:
Gals, what is this? The 1950s?

"Womenfolk" seemed a bit out of touch with modern life. You're overreacting. And I'm on 'ignore', but I'm pretty sure you're reading this anyway and looking for a reason to report the response. Knock yourself out.

I'll let the mods sort this out. Had a nice conversation with them about this sort of thing recently.

I think it would be extremely worth the mods' time to evaluate some sort of response to flagrant abuses of the report system as well. Perhaps that could cut down on the mountain of reports they have to sift through.

Not Online!!! wrote:
The third bits, just personal hygiene suggestion, which seems to be an issue for some in the hobby, beeing of the more social akward side of the spectrum?

There wouldn't be signs up in multiple shops if it wasn't a concern. Also, considering there's some kind of coof going around right now- there's a bit more to the concern than discomfort.

Not Online!!! wrote:
I ifnd it more disturbing that you two seem to insinuate that gals can't stand up for themselves and therefore need to be treated like "special " people protected at all times instead of just fellow gamers and hobbiests.

Few things disturb me more than the idea of being inclusive and friendly towards people different from yourself requires you to treat them like mentally defective children, and not like adult human beings.

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
Istrongly suspect a lock, and not to mention the OP reading your bickering and becoming disheartened about the sorts of people we are.

Nah, keep it rolling.

It'll do wonders to make my point. I don't even need to say anything else. Let her see what people are really like. Let's put on a proper spectacle for her.

No, mostly I expect you want us to name communities so you can spend your time trying to litigate what is and isn't "really" harassment and find ways to actually dox us.

You know, like how this stuff normally goes whenever someone on the internet mentions harassment based on sexism, racism, or homophobia. Like, do you think people are ignorant to how this conversation goes EVERY SINGLE TIME? We're not. It's entirely obvious where you want this to go.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
But if you aren't a woman yourself, and you don't talk to women about this sort of thing with an open mind (not directed at you specifically, AD, your approach seemed open-minded), you might not have a good idea of just how scary and intimidating male-dominated communities can be.

Even when they're friendly. Sometimes especially when they're overly friendly. The stories my women friends have told are... disturbing. And stress-inducing.

Being around people who are different from you and doing something unfamiliar and new can be very intimidating, I'm sure.

This is why I advocate treating people like they're... just regular people. Start treating women like delicate snowflakes and you'll probably drive them away faster, in my experience.

 Blndmage wrote:

Spoiler:

Fine.
Everything Games in Langford, B.C.

After being super clear about having my back, the owner hid behind BS.

I was contacted by a patron after an event (literally woke up to it the next morning.), insulted, threatened, and promised more of the same if I was seen in the store.

I went directly to the owner, shared everything, and asked that the person be, at least, banned from the FB group, at most banned from the store. He wouldn't go for either and said "because it didn't happen in the store, he couldn't do anything."
When I countered with "So you want me to come to the store and knowingly suffer before you'll do anything?"
His answer "Yes."
My wife even when down to the store to speak in person with him (I haven't set foot in it since it happened in February 2019), and spoke with him about it on recording. Same BS. "I don't want to alienate my biggest patrons."

Thank you, this is perfect. All I needed to know.

And if it blows back on you... well, I don't think it'll be a concern.

Just doing my due diligence- you have any idea what the patron's deal was? Like, what set them off? Or just some random crazy?

Just so you know- if they are threatening you via messages, you should take that to the police immediately.

Also, if your conflict didn't start in the store- well, the store owner's responsibility is to keep the drama out of the store. He can't ban someone just because you had a squabble with them elsewhere, unless it's high-visibility- and it can be: If this were some kind of message through Facebook- I recommend taking it and using it to show others what kind of person this player is. Your evidence has collected itself, actually. (No, I don't think you should show that here)

I work in a FLGS. We have customers that don't get along outside the store, and ask us to do something- if it doesn't happen in the store, we can't ban them from the store. We also can't go on a person's word alone. If they bring the drama to the store, we warn them to cool it. If they can't, then the instigator gets banned.

Like, fething this. Litigating harassment.

No, mostly I expect you want us to name communities so you can spend your time trying to litigate what is and isn't "really" harassment and find ways to actually dox us.

You know, like how this stuff normally goes whenever someone on the internet mentions harassment based on sexism, racism, or homophobia. Like, do you think people are ignorant to how this conversation goes EVERY SINGLE TIME? We're not. It's entirely obvious where you want this to go.

Vice versa we should just assume harrassment to have happened, without any proof, you know, and also not via the propper institutions to combat it but brought to the cangoroo court that is the online sphere?

Scuse me but: In dubio pro reo is a thing that exists for a reason.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I'm a bit late, but I'd like to remind everyone that the GW community practically split down the middle like a month ago because GW said that bigotry isn't okay and and vast swathes of the player base were massively offended by that concept, to the point that there is a coordianted effort going on right now to organize alt-righters who have never even heard of Warhammer to pretend to boycott it.

Wait what?

I mean, i had my issues with the post, because
A: it's cookie cutter corporate brownie points gathering . If something indeed would happen, then yeah, ok i will retract that part but for now, nothing changed soooo.....

B: It's from a company that at the time had not been in the slightest tangentially part of such an issue or even country. At the time, mind you.

C: It's for everyone, well , except the poor, feth them and their wishes for hoobies. Especially if they lost their jobs due to lockdowns. But Gw is happily increasing prices. Which is also a great way to exclude certain groups no?

And sure there are the usual asshats that will attempt to gather, considering however that the other usual suspects pretend to gather aswell, like peta and the chaos warrior fur coats for one exemple, or actually getting shouted at by commies because your carry case has army in the brand name visible, the only result this shows is how fething monoculture alot of people have become in regards to ideas and ideology.

racism and bigotry doesn’t exist in the U.K. even tangentially

 Nitro Zeus wrote:
racism and bigotry doesn’t exist in the U.K. even tangentially

I doubt that.

i just think that problems should be treated with measured responses, and not like gw swings pts balance pendulum.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Nitro Zeus wrote:
racism and bigotry doesn’t exist in the U.K. even tangentially

I doubt that.

i just think that problems should be treated with measured responses, and not like gw swings pts balance pendulum.

The issue is, the people who harrass and worse know its hard to press any charges. And evidence is low unless camera. I was grabbed playing, my opponent see. Several people see, and he got sent home.
But its been Complete denial since, His buddys say it may be a overreaction. We didn't see, No evidence.
This is one of the reasons there is left so little room, Too many men brush it away as too difficult to deal with and leave them perfectly capable to do it again. The Measured response was 20 years ago, and now people are just sick of it.

Apple fox wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Nitro Zeus wrote:
racism and bigotry doesn’t exist in the U.K. even tangentially

I doubt that.

i just think that problems should be treated with measured responses, and not like gw swings pts balance pendulum.

The issue is, the people who harrass and worse know its hard to press any charges. And evidence is low unless camera. I was grabbed playing, my opponent see. Several people see, and he got sent home.
But its been Complete denial since, His buddys say it may be a overreaction. We didn't see, No evidence.
This is one of the reasons there is left so little room, Too many men brush it away as too difficult to deal with and leave them perfectly capable to do it again. The Measured response was 20 years ago, and now people are just sick of it.

so, wait a minute, WTF?

Secondly, search another place, no seriously, if people can't stand up for what they see and SURELY have precieved as WRONG, then feck that group, out of principle.

THirdly, beeing sick of something, is not a alid reason to throw out any pretense of due dilligence and process. Themathising it, absolutely , attempting to reverse one of the most important achievements of enlightenment in regards to law is however also not the response to be taken .
VIce versa we know of a lot of lifes beeing also ruined by wrong allegations, which hurts double, because not only paints the target but also real victims in a seriously bad light.
Further, adopting tyranical and unjust measures, in order to fight tyranical and unjust measures makes the situation not better.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Apple fox wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Nitro Zeus wrote:
racism and bigotry doesn’t exist in the U.K. even tangentially

I doubt that.

i just think that problems should be treated with measured responses, and not like gw swings pts balance pendulum.

The issue is, the people who harrass and worse know its hard to press any charges. And evidence is low unless camera. I was grabbed playing, my opponent see. Several people see, and he got sent home.
But its been Complete denial since, His buddys say it may be a overreaction. We didn't see, No evidence.
This is one of the reasons there is left so little room, Too many men brush it away as too difficult to deal with and leave them perfectly capable to do it again. The Measured response was 20 years ago, and now people are just sick of it.

so, wait a minute, WTF?

Secondly, search another place, no seriously, if people can't stand up for what they see and SURELY have precieved as WRONG, then feck that group, out of principle.

THirdly, beeing sick of something, is not a alid reason to throw out any pretense of due dilligence and process. Themathising it, absolutely , attempting to reverse one of the most important achievements of enlightenment in regards to law is however also not the response to be taken .
VIce versa we know of a lot of lifes beeing also ruined by wrong allegations, which hurts double, because not only paints the target but also real victims in a seriously bad light.
Further, adopting tyranical and unjust measures, in order to fight tyranical and unjust measures makes the situation not better.

That is the issue, Due Dilligence is used more often against Victims than it is to find innocence or guilt. In some cases its had to come with many victims all coming forward at once, and its the reason this trial by fire is happening now. These men hide behind other men and we see it most often online, But it happens offline as well.
Often these same men will push for more proof, and use that search as another way to harrass Victims.

I dont really just dont have much options, So i am doing the best i can in my capacity. Its that or give up the hobby all together.

stratigo wrote:
No, mostly I expect you want us to name communities so you can spend your time trying to litigate what is and isn't "really" harassment and find ways to actually dox us.

Yeah, I wanna dox you so I can... uh... well...

...I'm sure I gain some benefit out of this, just... gimme a bit. I'll have to really think on this one, but I'll get back to you.

stratigo wrote:
You know, like how this stuff normally goes whenever someone on the internet mentions harassment based on sexism, racism, or homophobia. Like, do you think people are ignorant to how this conversation goes EVERY SINGLE TIME? We're not. It's entirely obvious where you want this to go.

OK.

stratigo wrote:
Like, fething this. Litigating harassment.

You got me here. I'm confused. What's happening?

Apple fox wrote:
And often these guys hide behind there buddys, they didnt see and they just dont think he would every do anything like that.
And will whine endlessly about SJW and how they are just being opressed when they are not included.
Making it extremely difficult to put distance from them, and harassers know it.
Endless denability, and mounting as much of the burden as they can onto friends.

So the stories go.

Hey, all I can say is if this is the experience in a FLGS: Talk to the owner. Owner doesn't believe you? Leave and don't go back. Your wallet can be pretty loud.

Apple fox wrote:
Often these same men will push for more proof, and use that search as another way to harrass Victims.

I dont really just dont have much options, So i am doing the best i can in my capacity. Its that or give up the hobby all together.

...so if they're using that to harass you, you have proof of harassment.

Unless they're doing it in person. I'm sure you've got a phone with a recorder, right? Just a suggestion.

And sorry, these days- yeah, people kinda want proof before taking action. Word alone isn't enough. You want someone to hear you out, understand your grief, sure- we got you there. But if you want someone to do anything... don't expect that without evidence. Because at that point, I'm sticking my neck out for someone on their word... and I don't think I need to explain how that backfires when someone is lying.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Apple fox wrote:
That is the issue, Due Dilligence is used more often against Victims than it is to find innocence or guilt.

Can you explain what you mean by this? I'm not sure I follow you. I'm also a bit groggy, so I'm running half-stupid brain.

I think you only need to look at the way women coming out online get harassed, Often if they dont have the power and a fanbase simply there as a buffer they can be forced offline completely.

If you get out a phone, then they just wander away in many cases. If people respond they cry harassment.
Gaslighting and Denial are powerful tools when all the proof is dropped onto the victims.
Also i think this will be my last post, just not a fun mood to be put in.

Not Online!!! wrote:

No, mostly I expect you want us to name communities so you can spend your time trying to litigate what is and isn't "really" harassment and find ways to actually dox us.

You know, like how this stuff normally goes whenever someone on the internet mentions harassment based on sexism, racism, or homophobia. Like, do you think people are ignorant to how this conversation goes EVERY SINGLE TIME? We're not. It's entirely obvious where you want this to go.

Vice versa we should just assume harrassment to have happened, without any proof, you know, and also not via the propper institutions to combat it but brought to the cangoroo court that is the online sphere?

Scuse me but: In dubio pro reo is a thing that exists for a reason.

Hello everyone, I am here to tell you.

Believe victims.

Thank you.

We are not a court of law. We are not prosecutors. We are not police. And these groups regularly ignore harassment and pass over all claims, often only after spending their time dragging the victim through the mud and making things much worse for them.

Apple fox wrote:
I think you only need to look at the way women coming out online get harassed, Often if they dont have the power and a fanbase simply there as a buffer they can be forced offline completely.

I'm sure harassment happens.

I'm also certain that if you're making a pretty harsh claim- especially one that could be considered a crime- well, people are going to want evidence. If you make a bold claim without any? Well, yeah- expect some blowback. It's the internet, for one- trolls are gonna troll. Secondly, it's the internet- these people aren't your friends. They don't know you. They don't have any credibility for you to rely on.

You think people haven't made up lies about someone to get revenge, or to just make their life difficult, or for financial gain? Oh- there's an entire industry around writing smear pieces, it's nothing new.

Like that fictional crazy Vicodin-gobbling doctor on a cane said, "People Lie". And on the internet, a lot of people lie. People have been lying on the internet, since there was an internet. I'd almost wager the first exchange between two people on the internet probably involved a lie.

You tell me a story about being harassed. Okay, cool- what do you want? Me to... not harass people and be against harassment? Well, I have good news. I was doing that before you came along, and I've no intention to alter that. So... what's the end state you're looking for? I'm not going to do anything without evidence- ruining someone's life, livelihood, etc. over a stranger's claims is also harassment.

Perspective:

The gaming shops are full of sexist creepers. Just all over the place, it's a nightmare out there.

But there's no possible way that anyone gets on the internet and just lies about this, no one could be that bad.

I ain't saying it don't happen. But I'm also gonna say that it doesn't matter if a bunch of strangers on the internet believe you- until someone can manifest evidence or some credible information against the person you're accusing... it's just a story on the internet. But fortunately, you live in 2020- where that can be enough to damage someone significantly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

stratigo wrote:
We are not a court of law. We are not prosecutors. We are not police. And these groups regularly ignore harassment and pass over all claims, often only after spending their time dragging the victim through the mud and making things much worse for them.

We're also not counselors. We're not a lynch mob. We are not gullible enough to believe every claim on the internet.

At the end of the day- if I am none of the above: What difference does it make if I believe them or not?

I'm still... not going to harass anyone, or be okay with harassment. What I believe or don't believe does absolutely nothing.

If the person making a claim needs me to believe them on the internet more than they need actual justice, then I'm questioning the motive.

See, here's the fun thing about "believing everyone that claims to be a victim"... now anyone can make a claim on the internet that something happened, and you just... gladly accept this as a truth? Well, see- that's all fun and games until you're the one that gets accused.

Go on and tell me that 'false claims never happen', because I can tell you- they do. People lie. And they'll lie about these things- they'll lie about much, much worse. Don't think that any particular group or type of person is incapable of it, and that any particular type of claim is off limits. I worked in a profession for a long time and saw many people fabricate all manner of nightmare narratives that were horrifying to hear, and it was even more horrifying to hear that they'd fabricated it- and just as horrifying to hear why they did it. The worst being, "I just wanted to be noticed".

stratigo wrote:

Hello everyone, I am here to tell you.

Believe victims.

Thank you.

That's great and all, until I say...

Hey everyone! Listen up! stratigo victimised me!

You have to believe me, because I'm a victim.

We seem to have pushed well past the original point. Thanks very much for all on topic participation!