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U02dah4 wrote:
No it doesn't it doesnt mention the unit

Whilst the assault doctrine is active, this unit....

The assault doctrine is not active it only considered to be active for the units within 6"

considered to be active is active. it says it replaces the tactical or devastator and puts you in assault. i feel like you're arguing just to argue

No the first clause is not met

If it said "Whilst the assault doctrine is active for this unit, "

Or "if this unit is effected by the assault doctrine,"

What would matter is the individual units doctrine and you would be correct

But "Whilst the assault doctrine is active" has no qualifier limiting it to the unit and so only checks if the doctrine is active or the army which its not

U02dah4 wrote:

But "Whilst the assault doctrine is active" has no qualifier limiting it to the unit

nor does it have a requirement being active for the army... it just needs to be active!

U02dah4 wrote:

and so only checks if the doctrine is active or the army which its not

Um, no... RAW it checks if it is "active", not if its "active for the army"

U02dah4 wrote:
No the first clause is not met

The first clause IS met, as the doctrine IS (considered to be) active according to the Red Grail/Blood Chalice rule, which reads
"[...] the Assault Doctrine is considered to be active [...]"

When the supplement is released you can only use red rampage once, and then never ever again

highwind01 wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:

But "Whilst the assault doctrine is active" has no qualifier limiting it to the unit

nor does it have a requirement being active for the army... it just needs to be active!

U02dah4 wrote:

and so only checks if the doctrine is active or the army which its not

Um, no... RAW it checks if it is "active", not if its "active for the army"

U02dah4 wrote:
No the first clause is not met

The first clause IS met, as the doctrine IS (considered to be) active according to the Red Grail/Blood Chalice rule, which reads
"[...] the Assault Doctrine is considered to be active [...]"

If this line of logic is sound can you explain to me why Dark Angels Talonmasters were barred from using their Heavy Weapons to snipe enemy characters even while under a rule that made them 'count as' assault weapons?

 Canadian 5th wrote:

If this line of logic is sound can you explain to me why Dark Angels Talonmasters were barred from using their Heavy Weapons to snipe enemy characters even while under a rule that made them 'count as' assault weapons?

By heart? No - because I neither know the rule or wording of the the rule which lets DA Talonmasters snipe enemy charakters, nor do I know the rule / wording of the rule which lets their heavy weapons count as assault weapons...

And in regards to BA this isnt a question about the "count as"-part... its a question about limiters and qualifiers.
The "count as"-part is as clear as it can get - nobody ever argued about 8th edition Ultramarine Agressor shooting twice after moving while being target of the "Master of Strategy" Warlord trait either

Good shout on the talon master yes its the same ruling.

Yes the question is does. "Whilst the assault doctrine is active," refer to whether the assault doctrine is active.

Or does it refer to the unit the rule is attached to.

I can understand why they read it the way they do but as per the talonmaster there is no wording to indicate it checks the specific unit and without evidence of that it refers to the default army wide doctrine rule.

So
"Whilst the assault doctrine is active" is a requirement for it to be active for the army. If any other doctrine is active then the assault doctrine is not active so the condition is not met.

The article feels like a joke. 5 relics. Only 5 left? We had like 12.
And why the graple only on vehicles and then showing a dreadnought fighting a nid monster...
And We allready had al those rules.
DC getting locked in cc doesnt seem like a bonus.

I know, we should till release. But muh. I expected more of the articles

how do you guys think the van vets would be best equiped as BA.

1. Any inferno pistols?
2. 1 or 2 lightning claws (3p for 1 extra attack)
3. power fist or thunder hammer?

I went through my bitz box and settled for:

SGT with relic blade & storm shield
3x dual lightning claw
3x power fist & storm shield
3x inferno pistol & chainsword

although I found it rare to field a full 10man anyways. But, now having doubts if inferno pistols are waste of points and, second lightning claw being non-efficient choice. also dual chainsword might be a handy cheap throw away model..

So how have you done your thought process.. on what do you think is most comp choice?

Two builds i prefer

Lightning claw chainsword

Lightning claw stormshield

Mix

You want consistency LC Chainsword maximises damage output per pt whereas the stormshield variant works out 4pts a model more expensive but maximises durability with only a small reduction in damage output

The chainsword variant is better for suicide units and the shields if you want to hold the territory you hit

The mix would be because its easy to drop a shield or 2 if your list is fractionally over.

The claws are so good its not really worth another weapon but there are diminished returns for a second claw over a chainsword.

Krull wrote:
The article feels like a joke. 5 relics. Only 5 left? We had like 12.
And why the graple only on vehicles and then showing a dreadnought fighting a nid monster...
And We allready had al those rules.
DC getting locked in cc doesnt seem like a bonus.

I know, we should till release. But muh. I expected more of the articles

I agree that the article was very uninspiring, showing lots of rules that we already knew about from the Index and a very lackluster strat that also removes one of our best previous strats.
I did like the ability to take two relics on a character, opens up some extra possibilities.

The 5 relic thing was expected, all supplement books have 7 relics and like the Imperial fists we are hampered by them shoehorning a successor chapter into our book which just means both the parent and successor get less rules which is a bit rubbish. Still add in the special issue relics and the ones from the marine book and there will be a healthy choice I am sure.

I'm just hoping that there are decent warlord traits and not just reprints of the old ones, that and I hope they haven't removed a load of our strats that work with jump infantry, I fear this as primaris don't have jumppacks.



As far as Vanguard Vet loadouts go, I like stormshields on everyone, it so cheap for the survivabilily buff it gives. Then a relic blade on the Srg, a fist or a hammer or two then the rest claws.

All this conversation made me go back to my old list build, it's all painted so no big changes inbound, I though I share ot anyway. this or with really minor tweaks has been my best list pre-supplement so far.



Back to to above topics.. still not sure what's the best take for van vets, blade vets just hit better point for point, but lack mobility, but in my games haven't had a problem to get them mid board where I want them.

New leaks on the supplement makes me fear that we might lose our best strats from 8th.. well we got many new units and strats from the SM codex, but still.. I want our flavor back. Those DC cpt/lt feel too much niche/fluffy rather than comp choice.

Blood Angels leaks. First impression is, I’m sort of disappointed. But I’d like to see what you peeps say.

https://imgur.com/gallery/6QQBr9o

Vanguard vets are for going to the enemy.

Pt for pt your assessment is wrong. Largely because vanguard have the same number of attacks better effective strength negligible difference in ap vs most targets and are cheaper. This means they outperform vs 1 W models and are even pretty similar vs 2 if built for damage output especially when taking into account ceiling effects

(Claw chainsword) 25 pt a model
Assuming assault doctrine charge and separating chainsword so can see shield variant output

5 Vanguard 125 pts Lclaw25 S4 RRW +1 to w ap3 1 dam
+ chainsword 5 s4 +1toW ap2 1dam
3 bladeguard 105pts 15 A s5 +1 to w ap4 2dam

vs intercessor
l claw 12.3W + chainsword 1.45 W
7ish dead intercessors
3 bladeguard 105pts = 16.8 W
8 dead intercessors
Only 5 intercessors in a squad so tie

conscript blob 16.1 dead from lC 2.8 from chainsword18.9 dead total
blade guard 8.4 dead clear winner vanguard

Vs terminators without SS
9.86 from l claw 1.1 chainsworsd or 3 and 2/3 termies
Bladeguard 11.4 or 2 and 2/3 termies
So a tie

The point I'm making is that the better assault unit varies on your target bladeguard output more damage in a vacuum but in real situations there's not a lot in it unless your hitting vehicles and against weak or invul targets the lightning claw is better.and goodluck getting your bladeguard to their vehicles because sang guard perform that role better


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Missions

Fury of the lost is a guaranteed 15VP for a death company build which is great considering its a weaker build

Blade of sanguinius is fun 10VP easy vs a lot of armies but 15 is tricky but possibly achievable

Death from above weak 6VP easy maybe 9 if your useing drop pods however you can get it up to 15 with upon wings of fire but its fiddly

Relentless assault if you want to build a suicide attack list it could work



Missions overall pretty solid



Death company characters a nice boost for the sub par Death company build



Strats

Descent of angels - optional ignore modifiers on charges and +1 to hit Solid (when not compared to its previous wording

Vengience of sanguinius to situational

refusal to die okish

Aggresive onslaught solid - fleshtearers bigger pile ins

Angels sacrifice situational

Spiritual might - strong manifest extra psykic power)

Visions of sanguinius situational strong

Angel exemplar double warlord traiting strong

angel ascendent - giving quake bolts to a sgt broken

Lucifer engines meh

honoured by the arx give Ba relic to successor great if your successor

Red rampage Brokenly good but once per game especially on l claw builds

unbridled ardour sanguinary guard large heroic intervene - not bad but situational

Forlorn fury pregame more up to 12 for a DC unit reallyy strong

upon wings of fire remove and set up as reinforcement strong

savage destruction FT and weak

Chalace overflowing Situational but strong


Overall there's a lot there that's pretty good .


Warlord traits
1 speed of primarch Weak
2 Artisan of war pretty nice (remembering you can double warlord)
3 soulwarden very situational but could be helpfull in some matchups
4 heroic bearing +3" aura great
5 gift of foresight as a second warlord trait on a beatstick could be ok
6 Big heroic interventions meh

boosts to sanguinor dante and corbulo over pdf

Flesh tearers
merciless butcher nerfed from pdf
wrath of rage ok on a beatstick but theres better
cetacian born reroll charges and deny overwatch/set to defend second character imperiums sword

Nerf to seth


Overall 3 usefull options ok none are broken but its a boost

Sanguinary disipline
quickening rerol charges +d3 attacks broken as ever

unleash rage Core unit unmodified 6's to hit = extra hitra hits given lots of are units put out 30 hits a turn could be a nice boost

shield of sanguinius weak (if 5++ is what you want base codex has an aura for you or an Iq does it cheaper)

blood boil lesser smite

blood lance potentially strong but you need to be well positioned

6 wings of sanguinius flying librarian dreadnought still broken

Overall this is pretty damn strong if just because of quickening and wings but now you can potentially cast 3 a turn with a single dreadnought unleash rage or blood lance could see play


Relics
Wrath of baal has to be on ancient meh

icon of the angel now 6" mandatory take

Visage of death obsec denial and -1 to be hit interesting but probably wont see much play

hammer of baal its a better thunderhammer meh

gallian staff great but a librarian dreadnought is probably better in most circumstances

crimson plate okish but FT only

severer okish ut ft only

Biomantic sarcophagus vanished booooo
Ft ability to double res also vanished

Overall the icons broken the rest are not terrible but mostly on specific units yu wont take but not enough to make it worth takeing


special issue
staples
quake bolts broken and you can put on a sgt
archeangel shard a nice upgrade on a power sword a weak one on a master crafted powersword
fleshrender grenades meh
gleaming pinions reroll charges ok on a lone smash captain

Quake bolts alone make this section great

PTs couldnt see any changes in my skim

Overall pretty strong many of our toys have remained intact and we have gained many from the base SM codex

DC got a significant boost
FT nerfed but you never saw them anyway
The missions alone make BA much stronger in 9th with 3 out 4 acheivable by the right lists

Is a minimum unit of 4 Sanguinary Guard actually worth taking? I assume it’ll most likely just die within 0.003 seconds?

Well that depends if it makes its charge when it dS in

With the new terrain rules (and how the board is set up obviously), is it possible to deepstrike behind line of site blocking terrain then move and charge the turn after? I don’t really like relying on charging from deepstrike, especially now we don’t seem to have the 3 dice charge strat anymore, based on the leaks.

So now your entire army can be Death Company? But how do you then score objectives in missions which require actions for the primaries? Having Black Rage means you cannot use actions, right? And every DC model has Black Rage?

 tauist wrote:
So now your entire army can be Death Company? But how do you then score objectives in missions which require actions for the primaries? Having Black Rage means you cannot use actions, right? And every DC model has Black Rage?

Apart from crusade no scenario requires actions. Primaries are hold 1/2, hold 2/3, hold more. No actions. Actions come on secondaries so you can simply choose ones that don't require actions. Does limit your options but can't expect to field skewed one-dimensional list and have all options now can you?-)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

highwind01 wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:

If this line of logic is sound can you explain to me why Dark Angels Talonmasters were barred from using their Heavy Weapons to snipe enemy characters even while under a rule that made them 'count as' assault weapons?

By heart? No - because I neither know the rule or wording of the the rule which lets DA Talonmasters snipe enemy charakters, nor do I know the rule / wording of the rule which lets their heavy weapons count as assault weapons...

And in regards to BA this isnt a question about the "count as"-part... its a question about limiters and qualifiers.
The "count as"-part is as clear as it can get - nobody ever argued about 8th edition Ultramarine Agressor shooting twice after moving while being target of the "Master of Strategy" Warlord trait either

And if they wanted it to just be extra AP they would write as extra AP. Whole assault doctrine thing is pointless then.

And at least supplement was playtested with assumption it gives full assault doctrine bonus.

Just an FYI, the new supplement has full scans out in the wild.

Big changes ahead, most of what we used before has been removed or heavily watered down.

There is some good stuff but on a whole its alot more vanilla especially the stratagems.

No standard of Sacrifice, no 3D6 charge, no redeploy same turn, no heroic intervention (only works on sang guard), no biomantic sar, no good heroic deed to use with Dante, psy powers are the same just toned down....

Death visions are cool and will make for great smash captains.

You have to factor in that we have access to the base marine codex now so sure the psychic powers might not be quite as strong but we also have the generic options we didn't have last edition.

Sure we dont have as many great relics but we have access to the vanilla codex relics and powers

Sure no 3d6 charge or 6" 5+++ bubble but

lots of ways to have out marines hitting on 2's and rerolling charges

Stand outs
Missions

Warlord traits
Heroic bearing
Artisan of War

Relics
Icon of the angel
Quake bolts

Psychic powers
Quickening, Wings, Unleash rage.

Strats
Forlorn fury
Upon wings of Fire
Red Rampage
angel ascendent
angel exemplar
Descent of angels

Death visions

Theirs enough their to separate the faction outside of our special units and a huge improvement over the index PDF

Whilst we are still going to be good (we are marines) I'm just finding it hard to be excited when I look at the new book as everything just seems worse than before, that doesn't mean it is bad but it is a downgrade which just isn't nice when its your favourite faction.

Lets take a look at you list.

Stand outs
Missions I see them as pretty situational unless you really build to them. The DC one is the only one that you could really ever get 15pts from and then you would have to have gone all in on a DC list.

Warlord traits These are certainly better than before, none are super good but they are certainly worth taking after you've picked up a couple from the marine book.
Heroic bearing
Artisan of War

Relics The Icon will appear in every list, more because there aren't any other decent options than it being super powerful. The bolts are good but they have changed alot of bonuses to being +1 to hit so this doesn't stack well. This is an area where we suffer from having the Flesh Tearers in the book, we lose two relics so that they can print two for FT that won't be used by 99% of the players.
Icon of the angel
Quake bolts

Psychic powers Our powers aren't bad they are just worse than they were before - Wings not doesn't last for your next movement phase and rage gives a situational extra hit instead of guaranteed extra attack.
Quickening, Wings, Unleash rage.

Strats This is where the real problems lie, there is alot here that is either a general strat that appears in all supplements or is just a worse version of a previous one.
Forlorn Fury is the same but you don't get to advance, Upon wings now loses you a turn whilst you redeploy, Red Rampage looks good until you do the math (it generates one extra failed save for every 54 attacks (on a 3+) that you make), Descent of Angels is a good Stratagem but its just not as good as it was, similar with unbridaled Ardour that has nothing wrong with it other than it now targets a single unit type instead of anything in your army.
Forlorn fury
Upon wings of Fire
Red Rampage
angel ascendent
angel exemplar
Descent of angels

Death visions These are good, makes for a nasty smash captain. Two of the bonuses are really good and the other is situational at very best. The main issue is that each can only be used once per game and with a strat to allow a single character to use two you will only ever take a single guy with this.

Theirs enough their to separate the faction outside of our special units and a huge improvement over the index PDF

U02dah4 wrote:

Sanguinary Guard should ideally have axes

Why though?

Now that swords are str 5 on marines you will at worst wound at 4+ and always have 3 ap. Now that we can have null zone as well the extra ap isnt even wasted. Sure the axe is probably better against t5/t6 with invuls but a lot of the t5 models you see, custodes and gravis, also have a version of transhuman so the extra str is wasted there anyway.

Klickor wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:

Sanguinary Guard should ideally have axes

Why though?

Now that swords are str 5 on marines you will at worst wound at 4+ and always have 3 ap. Now that we can have null zone as well the extra ap isnt even wasted. Sure the axe is probably better against t5/t6 with invuls but a lot of the t5 models you see, custodes and gravis, also have a version of transhuman so the extra str is wasted there anyway.

Because on T1 your not slamming anything and on T3+ or if chaliced Axes are AP3 where as swords are AP4

So in terms of S Axes gain a bonus Vs T5 T6 and T3 with -1 to hit

Terms of AP Swords gain a bonus vs 3+ or better provided they dont have an invul. Sure as you point out custodes can strat but they cant strat everything and forceing them to use CP isnt a bad thing.

Now if your baseing your plans against only marines then Swords are arguably close unless you come up aganst melee builds of vanguard with stormshields or bladeguards or outriders or attack bikes. Against most standard 2 wound 3+ models both units wipe the squad. Where axes shine is when you start hitting bikes, custodes and light vehicles. where swords shine is against 2+ or 3+ large squads without invuls however they are much rarer

Then it comes back to what you want your sanguinary guard to be killing - are they hunting intercessors or are they going after the things that are a bigger threat (and we have plenty of toys to stab an intercessor more cheaply)

Null zone is a risky power in a lot of BA builds. 3/4 of my army usually has an invul and they get stripped aswell certainly can work but building to minimise self harm from nullzone is limiting

I usually only have 2-4 invul saves in total in my BA lists so for me it usually isnt much of a problem. I was thinking of using a chief librarian with tome of malcador so you can have null zone and wings on the same model all with +1 to cast. Should help in getting that null zone where you want it. Probably the invul aura(for when you dont null zone) or might of heroes as the third spell.

You are right though that axes arent bad either. Meta and personal choice is probably as important as math in this case. I wouldnt ever use a powerfist as long as they cost more though. Not worth it to pay more to only be slightly better against t6 and t7 and be worse or equal against everything else.

 WisdomLS wrote:
Whilst we are still going to be good (we are marines) I'm just finding it hard to be excited when I look at the new book as everything just seems worse than before, that doesn't mean it is bad but it is a downgrade which just isn't nice when its your favourite faction.

Lets take a look at you list.

Stand outs
Missions I see them as pretty situational unless you really build to them. The DC one is the only one that you could really ever get 15pts from and then you would have to have gone all in on a DC list.

Warlord traits These are certainly better than before, none are super good but they are certainly worth taking after you've picked up a couple from the marine book.
Heroic bearing
Artisan of War

Relics The Icon will appear in every list, more because there aren't any other decent options than it being super powerful. The bolts are good but they have changed alot of bonuses to being +1 to hit so this doesn't stack well. This is an area where we suffer from having the Flesh Tearers in the book, we lose two relics so that they can print two for FT that won't be used by 99% of the players.
Icon of the angel
Quake bolts

Psychic powers Our powers aren't bad they are just worse than they were before - Wings not doesn't last for your next movement phase and rage gives a situational extra hit instead of guaranteed extra attack.
Quickening, Wings, Unleash rage.

Strats This is where the real problems lie, there is alot here that is either a general strat that appears in all supplements or is just a worse version of a previous one.
Forlorn Fury is the same but you don't get to advance, Upon wings now loses you a turn whilst you redeploy, Red Rampage looks good until you do the math (it generates one extra failed save for every 54 attacks (on a 3+) that you make), Descent of Angels is a good Stratagem but its just not as good as it was, similar with unbridaled Ardour that has nothing wrong with it other than it now targets a single unit type instead of anything in your army.
Forlorn fury
Upon wings of Fire
Red Rampage
angel ascendent
angel exemplar
Descent of angels

Death visions These are good, makes for a nasty smash captain. Two of the bonuses are really good and the other is situational at very best. The main issue is that each can only be used once per game and with a strat to allow a single character to use two you will only ever take a single guy with this.

Theirs enough their to separate the faction outside of our special units and a huge improvement over the index PDF

Its certainly better than the PDF but I'd argue that its not as good or as interesting as we were at the start of 9th, being in the main codex has certainly made us better space marines but it has made us worse blood angels.

If I want to use death company Intercessors, what’s the best way to use them? A unit of 5 and a chaplain in an Impulsor? Forlorn Fury a unit of 10 up the table?

if it were me a unit of 5 in reserves

Give them a hammer and hunt characters? Or clear chaff? Go for elites?

They have a lot of A but don't really have any weapons worth speaking of that makes them a screen clearer.