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Wow.... so much talk of various Chapters losing what makes them unique... I really don't think any Chapter will lose something that makes them 'different'.

I have been of the opinion that this is the best way to go since forever, as all the loyalist marines (ex. GK) are more similar then they are different (yes even SW).

As others have said I think it'll work alot like the index era at the start of 8E - Alongside the new, all inclusive (okay not GK) Marine Codex we'll probably get a big FAQ telling us for Divergent Chapter to refer to (the old) Codex: Divergent for the following units (A, B, C....) that Divergent Chapter may not take the following Units from (this new) Codex: Marines (D, E, F), and the the following units (G. H. I) get the following alterations <add/remove keywords/ wargear choices as required>.

Upon release of Chapter: Divergent Supplement this information is presented in a nicer manner (with more pics). Presumably one or two named dudes will have crossed the rubricon, and possibly Divergent Chapter will get some sorta Chapter Specific Primaris Unit/ upgrade sprue thingy.

Going (back) to this model will mean that Chapters don't spend some time awaiting for updates introduced elsewhere to trickle through to thier stand alone codex (and hopefully cut down on those copy/paste errors when points are adjusted).

Cornishman wrote:
I really don't think any Chapter will lose something that makes them 'different'.

Then you have more faith in GW then some of us.
As I said, I'm not 100% opposed, I'm just leery as it could be a disaster for the impacted armies

wow, if that is an disaster how'd you call the 4th ed CSM dex?

Or by any margine squatting?

 Type40 wrote:
honestly, if they do just re-release everything unique. Then i dont need the generic SM codex except maybe 5 pages.
I am not buying an entire codex for 5 pages.

And otherwise, why not just let them sell the space wolf kits as "aesthetic kits." the blood claw kits have been out of stock for years, they stopped making the long fang specific kits. Are they going to continue supporting the 15+ finecast wolf kits ?

I dunno,, I am worried they wont and to be honest, financially, why would they... they want me to buy primaris and replace my old stuff. I wont do that if i can play my more flavourful stuff.

I've been doing some thinking.

The reason they rolled BA, DA, SW and DW into the main codex isn't necessarily for datasheet sharing (although that does help, re: Rites of Battle). It's to standardise the Stratagems available to all SM armies. It's also to allow DA, BA and SW to have proper successor chapters.

I agree for SW and DW it's a bit of a poor value proposition

Yes, but it will never happen due to reduced sales for GW.

@sgt_smudge

are you even reading what I have written ?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Type40 wrote:I dont think you understand.

In SW, currently, you take plasma cannon long fangs,,, not hellblasters...

Why are Hellblasters in the current Space Wolves Codex then?

Because like I said GW wants people to buy Primaris, why wouldnt they be in the codex?

In SW currently, if you like the fluff, you ll take bloodclaws not generic primaris assault.

But Assault Primaris would be well integrated into the Space Wolves Chapter. Your idea of fluff is "pre-Primaris fluff, aka, what I say".

Yes, assault primaris are slightly bigger generic assault marines and generic assault marines fit into the SW playstyle,,,, not unique from other assault marines, but they do fit the playstyle

In SW currently, if you like the fluff, you ll take grey hunters, not generic intercessors.

Intercessors are also well adopted by the Space Wolves.
You're sounding awfully gate-keepy on what a "real" Space Wolves army is. If someone made an all-Primaris Space Wolves list, but leant strongly into aggressive play, enjoyed their lore, and the SW aesthetic, why aren't they a proper SW player, according to you?

Seriously, I am saying the opposite. I want them to leave in the options. I am not being gate-keepy by saying "leave in my unique units and let people choose to play the competitive primaris if they want to" GW is the one who is REMOVING options.

The important part is to recognise that that both Firstborn and Primaris Marines are equally valid parts of a Space Wolves army, and as long as you get to pick the units *you* want for *your* army, that's what matters. And right now, there's no indication that Grey Hunters/Blood Claws/Long Fangs are leaving.

YES ,,, so dont remove the unique stuff about everything else.... and YES there is indication,,, they arnt going to make a supplement that replaces 30 + datasheet .... that just doest make sense

Type40 wrote:SW are as different to SM as CSM is to SM.

They're really not.

Unless you can point to Chaos Primaris equivalents, that is (and before you say Space Wolves don't have Primaris, their current Codex has more than enough)/

Like I said,, outside of Primaris CSM ARE just as similar to SM as SWs are to SM . How can you say any different ? SW totally have primaris ! and I am fine with the option being available. If fabius bile decides to make primaris,,, we can then throw CSM into the SM codex ? Is that what we are waiting for ? maybe the game should only have 4 factions ?

I am not ok with GW removing SW unique options so Primaris looks more appealing to certain kinds of players.
Primaris arn't some magical gold that GW has handed the loyalist players. they are a cash-grab. they are selling you your army a second time. you arnt buying anything unique, just bigger versions of everything you already have. And if you want to play primaris,,, great, go play primaris , have fun. I think they are boring and non-unique to SW/BA/DA ... and again, thats fine, go play them. Dont gatekeep me by telling me my book of 80% completely unique datasheets "isn't different enough to count as its own faction" if sans primaris it would be just as different as GK or CSM to SM .

let me spell it out for you, because its clear you arn't getting it.
Right now GW wants everyone to buy Primaris and re-buy their entire army.
So what did they do... they looked at regular SM and are systematically replacing each unit in the SM codex with a slight bigger, slightly different looking version and making it , rules wise, way way way better. So the SM players have obvious and direct upgrades for their units. GW wants people to think " Why play tactical marines when intercessors are just hands down better ?" and things like this. Each old unit is getting a direct upgrade and they want you to want that new shiny upgrade instead.
This is all well and good because if you want those upgrades you have the option to get them.

But GW has a problem.... they need to sell MORE primaris... and there are groups of players who CAN buy primaris but arn't ! these are some of the people who play SW, DA, BA and DW.
but why not ?
Intercessors arn't exactly a direct upgrade to greyhunters. primaris assault marines arn't exactly a direct upgrade to bloodclaws. Primaris inceptors arn't exactly an upgrade to skyclaws. The primaris fill the same roles and are WAY better. But they old units still have unique mechanics to the SW. The same thing is true with BA/DA.
So people who play these other marine factions have choices. They can play their old units with their fluffy mechanics OR they can play the new generic Primaris marines that are direct upgrades to regular SM units. They are different enough that getting the primaris unit that fills the role isn't just "the primaris version is obviously better" because they do something unique and different.
and there are a lot of people who play this other factions, especially more casually, who like the uniqueness of the old marines,,, maybe got some primaris options, but they havnt replaced everything because they think their blood claws have a fun ability / restriction. They like having wolfgaurd. or they like the abilities on the long fangs.
But now,,,, GW has a problem.... they need EVERYONE who plays any kind of marines to want to replace their old stuff with their new stuff.... but SW/BA/DA like their unique stuff and dont want to just "upgrade" maybe they ll add SOME primaris, but GW wants everyone to REPLACE AND REBUY everything they own.... so their are two financial solutions to achieve this from GW at this particular audience. 1. they can make more unique primaris so that they do become a direct upgrade like already exist with SM OR 2. they can make SW//DA/BA as generic as regular SM and achieve the same effect with way less work.
The fact is,
I am happy with other people replacing their armies with primaris. Go do it ! and enjoy your really strong army. I was even happy with the idea of buying a few primaris units to fit certain roles in my own SW army. That quade bike looks dope, maybe even a unit of assault primaris.... What I am not ok with is my unique units becoming generic, because then, I am just sitting there with a bunch of non-unique generic gak that is just objectively worse then the new the new stuff with no mechanics that at least makes those things unique and interesting...

basically, removing customization/unique elements is gakky. I am not gate keeping by saying that I want ALL the options to exist. What is gatekeeping is telling me that my unique units have no place in the game. Or telling me that my army doesn't fit the atmosphere/feel of this grimdark game. Don't squat my army just because the majority of competitive players don't play the unique options but play the generic stuff that GW is trying to spoonfeed us.

BrianDavion wrote:

Cornishman wrote:
I really don't think any Chapter will lose something that makes them 'different'.

Then you have more faith in GW then some of us.
As I said, I'm not 100% opposed, I'm just leery as it could be a disaster for the impacted armies

Do I have more faith? Perhaps having played the game since RT I have less stringent requirements on what is required to make, or keep BA, DA. SW 'different', or maybe views such changes from the base 'Codex' as less radical than others.

SW were unique long before Thunderwolf Cav and Wulfun arrived on the scene. The simple slight change in unit structure (Blood Claws, Grey Hunters, Longfangs, Wolfguard) introduced around the dawn of 2e sets them apart, but isn’t as far removed from (Assault, Tactical, Devastator and Veterans/Terms) as many would think – that you can approximate SW specific units with a by the book, codex unit is evidence to this. I don't see unique units from anyone going anywhere until such time as a suitable primarised replacement is available, so I don't see what is being lost (other than SW having a single book, standalone Codex).

BA have been unique since the introduction of the Red Thirst. They’ve had some unique tricks since the establishment of Death Company, Bhaal Predator and Furioso Dreadnought. To me One the BAs defining traits is that at their core they are still Codex Compliant Chapter (just with a few ‘extras’)…. There isn’t a great (hidden) re-working of the structure or organisation (e.g. SW/ DA). So basing them off of Codex: SM seems entirely inkeeping with their lore. Deathcompany (Intercessors), Bhaal Pred etc... are then added in thier splat book.

The intricacies of the Deathwing or Ravenwing haven’t error needed much in the way of rules. ‘Company Veterans’ as opposed to ‘Veterans’ has been a thing for a long long time, and being able to mix and match ‘tac’ and ‘assault’ termies in the single unit is a really old thing too. Neither of these things requires extensively re-writing the armylist from C:SM ‘baseline’.

Both BA and DA have gained and lost several unique features in the games history. For instance, over several editions BA could take Assault Squads in Troops slots, and no longer can you take a Land Speeder in a Ravenwing Attack Squad (or the Attack Squad it’s self) – It is now merely a ‘Ravenwing Bike Squad’, with the max sized unit being an oddly Codex Compliant 8 bikers and an attack bike , despite it being long established in the lore as a full 10 man squad comprising of 6 bikes, an attack bike and landspeeder. Who knows perhaps such things may yet return to help differentiate things?

Plus as BCB mentioned, bringing together them helps standardised all manner of things which probably should be like Stratagem.

If however they say upon release 'thou must only draw units and rules from this new tome' and don't offer of big FAQ to keep unique units/options. Then yes, completely terrible & awful in varying degrees of severity.

People who think that one more plasmagun is a critical unique flavour are hilarious.

Like them or loathe them,Wulfen and Thunderwolf Cavalry are actually unique units. Grey Hunters, Blood Claws and Long Fangs are Tacticals, Assault, Marines and Devastators with couple of extra options.

 Crimson wrote:
People who think that one more plasmagun is a critical unique flavour are hilarious.

Like them or loathe them,Wulfen and Thunderwolf Cavalry are actually unique units. Grey Hunters, Blood Claws and Long Fangs are Tacticals, Assault, Marines and Devastators with couple of extra options.

I don't understand why people think GW are going to "force" SW to take Tacticals, Assaults, and Devastators. It's far more likely that the supplement will include a list of units SW can take from the main codex (i.e. the vehicles), and keep all their unique units in the supplement. My best guess as to the "reasoning" is to standardise the stratagems available to all SM flavours, and to allow for full fat BA, DA and SW successors.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
I don't understand why people think GW are going to "force" SW to take Tacticals, Assaults, and Devastators. It's far more likely that the supplement will include a list of units SW can take from the main codex (i.e. the vehicles), and keep all their unique units in the supplement.

Yes, that is perfectly possible. I just don't get why it is a big deal either way. As long as one can keep the weapon options that they had before, what does it matter if it is via separate Grey Hunter datasheet or via 'Grey Hunter upgrade' for a Tactical Squad?

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
People who think that one more plasmagun is a critical unique flavour are hilarious.

Like them or loathe them,Wulfen and Thunderwolf Cavalry are actually unique units. Grey Hunters, Blood Claws and Long Fangs are Tacticals, Assault, Marines and Devastators with couple of extra options.

I don't understand why people think GW are going to "force" SW to take Tacticals, Assaults, and Devastators. It's far more likely that the supplement will include a list of units SW can take from the main codex (i.e. the vehicles), and keep all their unique units in the supplement. My best guess as to the "reasoning" is to standardise the stratagems available to all SM flavours, and to allow for full fat BA, DA and SW successors.

I hope so but I am not confident. I really think this is just steps towards convincing us to upgrade to primaris.
but again, I hope your right.

People who think that one more plasmagun is a critical unique flavour are hilarious.

Like them or loathe them,Wulfen and Thunderwolf Cavalry are actually unique units. Grey Hunters, Blood Claws and Long Fangs are Tacticals, Assault, Marines and Devastators with couple of extra options.

Have you read a SW codex ? yes,,, they have different unit sizes... they also have different rules, different unit compositions and different wargear options. They can have wolfgaud leader.
Why isn't a plague marine just another chaos space marine ?
also because they have different rules, different unit compositions, unit sizes and different wargear options.
why isnt a rubric marine unit just another CSM
also because they have different rules, different unit compositions, unit sizes, wargear options and oh,, a sorcerer (kinda like a wolf gaurd leader)

if you can't see that these units arn't different, i suggest actually reading their datasheets.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
I don't understand why people think GW are going to "force" SW to take Tacticals, Assaults, and Devastators. It's far more likely that the supplement will include a list of units SW can take from the main codex (i.e. the vehicles), and keep all their unique units in the supplement.

Yes, that is perfectly possible. I just don't get why it is a big deal either way. As long as one can keep the weapon options that they had before, what does it matter if it is via separate Grey Hunter datasheet or via 'Grey Hunter upgrade' for a Tactical Squad?

Because of the alternative rules, unit sizes, compositions, and abilities these units have. Its not only about weapon options.
and even saying that, will they allow the wargear differences ? what about the incredibly customizable terminators ?

 BaconCatBug wrote:
My best guess as to the "reasoning" is to standardise the stratagems available to all SM flavours, and to allow for full fat BA, DA and SW successors.

Why would they be wanting SW successors, though, when (as far as I recall) the only known successor prior to the setting being murdered at the close of 7th edition was the Wolf Brothers, which ended up getting purged.

The "Ultima Founding" seems to have created the "Wolfspears", but whether they remain stable being not of Fenris is anyone's guess.

 Dysartes wrote:

Why would they be wanting SW successors, though, when (as far as I recall) the only known successor prior to the setting being murdered at the close of 7th edition was the Wolf Brothers, which ended up getting purged.

The "Ultima Founding" seems to have created the "Wolfspears", but whether they remain stable being not of Fenris is anyone's guess.

Space Wolves not having successors was always stupid and unnecessarily limiting part of the fluff and I'm glad it is gone. If people want to make SW successors they should be able to without neckbeards yelling at them about the fluff.

 Dysartes wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
My best guess as to the "reasoning" is to standardise the stratagems available to all SM flavours, and to allow for full fat BA, DA and SW successors.

Why would they be wanting SW successors, though, when (as far as I recall) the only known successor prior to the setting being murdered at the close of 7th edition was the Wolf Brothers, which ended up getting purged.

The "Ultima Founding" seems to have created the "Wolfspears", but whether they remain stable being not of Fenris is anyone's guess.

Because Primaris exist. Wolfspears still use Leman Russes's geneseed (if you can still call it that after the Mary Sue Juice injection by Cawl).

 Type40 wrote:
In SW, currently, you take plasma cannon long fangs,,, not hellblasters...
In SW currently, if you like the fluff, you ll take bloodclaws not generic primaris assault.
In SW currently, if you like the fluff, you ll take grey hunters, not generic intercessors.

Only if you like old, outdated stuff. If you look at recent, up to date official fluff, then to play SW you play :
- Hellblasters, not old almost extinct units like long fangs.
- Intercessors, not old almost extinct units like Grey Hunters.
- Assault primaris, not basically already disappeared Blood Claws, I mean why turn recruits into inferior oldmarines when you could make them primaris

I mean, the Blood Claws are gone in the fluff, the very few Grey Hunter left will soon turn into Long Fangs, and the Long Fangs are dying of old age lol.

Type40 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Type40 wrote:I dont think you understand.

In SW, currently, you take plasma cannon long fangs,,, not hellblasters...

Why are Hellblasters in the current Space Wolves Codex then?

Because like I said GW wants people to buy Primaris, why wouldnt they be in the codex?

If GW wanted people to only buy Primaris, why leave in Long Fangs and Devastators then?

Your whole point seems to assume that Space Wolves don't ALREADY have Primaris Marines in their Codex, which they do, so I'm struggling to see where all this "if we get merged with the normies, we'll have to take Primaris!" rhetoric is coming from, because you already have Primaris,

In SW currently, if you like the fluff, you ll take bloodclaws not generic primaris assault.

But Assault Primaris would be well integrated into the Space Wolves Chapter. Your idea of fluff is "pre-Primaris fluff, aka, what I say".

Yes, assault primaris are slightly bigger generic assault marines and generic assault marines fit into the SW playstyle,,,, not unique from other assault marines, but they do fit the playstyle

So why are they a problem? They're not invalidating Blood Claws.

In SW currently, if you like the fluff, you ll take grey hunters, not generic intercessors.

Intercessors are also well adopted by the Space Wolves.
You're sounding awfully gate-keepy on what a "real" Space Wolves army is. If someone made an all-Primaris Space Wolves list, but leant strongly into aggressive play, enjoyed their lore, and the SW aesthetic, why aren't they a proper SW player, according to you?

Seriously, I am saying the opposite.

Doesn't sound like it. It's sounding a lot like "how dare GW add Primaris, REAL Space Wolves don't play Primaris!".

I want them to leave in the options.

So do I - the *real* options, at least.

I am not being gate-keepy by saying "leave in my unique units and let people choose to play the competitive primaris if they want to" GW is the one who is REMOVING options.

You have no idea if GW are removing anything though.

All you know so far is that the Codexes will be merged, and that SW will get unique units through their supplement. You don't know the shape of what that's going to be yet, so all this "WE'RE LOSING OPTIONS" is entirely baseless. If/when we find out that GW are removing those features, you have every right, but right now, you don't know squat.

The important part is to recognise that that both Firstborn and Primaris Marines are equally valid parts of a Space Wolves army, and as long as you get to pick the units *you* want for *your* army, that's what matters. And right now, there's no indication that Grey Hunters/Blood Claws/Long Fangs are leaving.

YES ,,, so dont remove the unique stuff about everything else.... and YES there is indication,,, they arnt going to make a supplement that replaces 30 + datasheet .... that just doest make sense

As people have suggested, there are plenty of ways to re-create the unique features of the SW units without needing to publish a whole new datasheet. Something as simple as "add <Grey Hunters> keyword to all <Space Wolves> Tactical Squads. Any <Grey Hunters> may take an additional chainsword, one <Grey Hunter> may take a Wolf Standard, etc etc".

There's no need to reprint what would be the majority of the book with slight changes. Don't forget - nearly all the vehicles are identical, all the Primaris units are the same, the lion's share of stratagems are the same, most HQs are largely the same.
(From a brief look over, I counted <20 unique units that weren't just HQs with a single extra rule tacked on - most of these units were things like Thunderwolves/character mounts, and things like Grey Hunters, Blood Claws, Long Fangs, etc - and 20 units isn't going to break the bank).

Type40 wrote:SW are as different to SM as CSM is to SM.

They're really not.

Unless you can point to Chaos Primaris equivalents, that is (and before you say Space Wolves don't have Primaris, their current Codex has more than enough)/

Like I said,, outside of Primaris CSM ARE just as similar to SM as SWs are to SM .

But that's the thing - you're having to ignore the presence of Primaris to say that.

And, even outside of that, there's still plenty of difference, most notably in the forms of much fewer vehicles and generic units with immediate comparisons (ie, Wolf Scouts and regular Scouts have easy parallels, but CSM have no equivalent), stratagems operating much differently, daemon engines having no comparisons, as well as completely new HQ options in CSM that no Marines have an equivalent for (Master of Possession, Master of Executions, Lord-Discordant, etc).

I am not ok with GW removing SW unique options so Primaris looks more appealing to certain kinds of players.

But you have no idea that's what GW are doing.

You're pretending like you know what their plans are, and basing arguments off of that, which makes any discussion pretty futile because you're working off of assumptions as facts.

Dont gatekeep me by telling me my book of 80% completely unique datasheets "isn't different enough to count as its own faction" if sans primaris it would be just as different as GK or CSM to SM .

Your book isn't 80% unique datasheets though. It's only CLOSE to that if you ignore Primaris - which you have every right to do, but that doesn't change that they're options you're wilfully ignoring.

If I turned around and said "Ultramarines are 100% unique datasheets, they should get their own Codex - oh, yeah, I'm ignoring all the generic units, I only play Tyrannic War Vets, Honour Guard and Victrix Guard", that's not a far argument, because I'm ignoring the units that don't fit *my* army. And it's fine to have units that don't fit your army! I don't play Repentia in my Sisters army, because I don't like Repentia. I don't play Conscripts in my Guard because I don't like Conscripts. I don't play with lots of Bikes or Impulsors or Land Speeders because I don't like those units. But just because *I* don't play with them doesn't mean they aren't work counting.

let me spell it out for you, because its clear you arn't getting it.
Right now GW wants everyone to buy Primaris and re-buy their entire army.

You're spelling out what is little more than conspiracy.
I'm sure GW does want people to buy Primaris. I'm sure they also wanted people to buy their new Chaos Marines and Sisters of Battle and any other army they produce. That's how companies work.

But they're not FORCING anyone to do it.

basically, removing customization/unique elements is gakky.

Agreed. But, in case you've missed my point - you have no idea if anything has or hasn't been removed, but are acting like it has, and that's what I've got an issue with.

You're acting like the sky's falling down, and NOTHING'S HAPPENED YET. Wait. If we later find out that suddenly, Grey Hunters are totally gone, no way of recreating them, squatted - then you have every right to complain about things being cut. But that hasn't happened yet.

Have I made myself clear?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Type40 wrote:
In SW, currently, you take plasma cannon long fangs,,, not hellblasters...
In SW currently, if you like the fluff, you ll take bloodclaws not generic primaris assault.
In SW currently, if you like the fluff, you ll take grey hunters, not generic intercessors.

Only if you like old, outdated stuff. If you look at recent, up to date official fluff, then to play SW you play :
- Hellblasters, not old almost extinct units like long fangs.
- Intercessors, not old almost extinct units like Grey Hunters.
- Assault primaris, not basically already disappeared Blood Claws, I mean why turn recruits into inferior oldmarines when you could make them primaris

I mean, the Blood Claws are gone in the fluff, the very few Grey Hunter left will soon turn into Long Fangs, and the Long Fangs are dying of old age lol.

How to Wolfyfy Primaris, now that Crawl's initial batch of Primaris are settled in so presumably the 'new' primaris are either oldborn crossing the rubicon or new recruits....

Take Assault Intercessors, Rename Primaris Blood Claws <tweek rules to taste>
Take Intercessors, rename Primaris Grey Hunters...
Take Hellblasters, rename to Longfang Hellblasters....

It'd be fantastic if there was an option to add a (Primaris) Wolfguard to Primaris SW units, - To me this is a key flavour of what makes SWs, SWs. Given GW's no model no rules policy that'd require some way of making an all GW suitable Primaris Wolfguard model.
Rulewise this'd be pretty simple, so the barrier would seem to be having a suitbale model/ upgrade' spure. Alas that could be a while off GW have spent 30 odd years defining Space Marines and are new redefining a 'new normal' for them, so not everything is going to be available at once, but I hope this optinos is available soon.

Crimson wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

Why would they be wanting SW successors, though, when (as far as I recall) the only known successor prior to the setting being murdered at the close of 7th edition was the Wolf Brothers, which ended up getting purged.

The "Ultima Founding" seems to have created the "Wolfspears", but whether they remain stable being not of Fenris is anyone's guess.

Space Wolves not having successors was always stupid and unnecessarily limiting part of the fluff and I'm glad it is gone. If people want to make SW successors they should be able to without neckbeards yelling at them about the fluff.

When you have 12 Great Companies to play with, each of which having a mix of units, do you really need to try to be special by being a successor?

And it's not stupid - it showed that not all geneseed is equally viable, which is a useful detail for the setting.

BaconCatBug wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
My best guess as to the "reasoning" is to standardise the stratagems available to all SM flavours, and to allow for full fat BA, DA and SW successors.

Why would they be wanting SW successors, though, when (as far as I recall) the only known successor prior to the setting being murdered at the close of 7th edition was the Wolf Brothers, which ended up getting purged.

The "Ultima Founding" seems to have created the "Wolfspears", but whether they remain stable being not of Fenris is anyone's guess.

Because Primaris exist. Wolfspears still use Leman Russes's geneseed (if you can still call it that after the Mary Sue Juice injection by Cawl).

I did note the "Ultima Founding" thing, BCB - but given that it's been noted that Cawl's tinkering hasn't suppressed the Canis Helix (and, in turn, the Curse of the Wulfen), we don't know whether the Wolfspears will remain viable in the long-term, or whether they'll suffer the same fate as the Wolf Brothers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Type40 wrote:
In SW, currently, you take plasma cannon long fangs,,, not hellblasters...
In SW currently, if you like the fluff, you ll take bloodclaws not generic primaris assault.
In SW currently, if you like the fluff, you ll take grey hunters, not generic intercessors.

Only if you like old, outdated stuff. If you look at recent, up to date official fluff, then to play SW you play :
- Hellblasters, not old almost extinct units like long fangs.
- Intercessors, not old almost extinct units like Grey Hunters.
- Assault primaris, not basically already disappeared Blood Claws, I mean why turn recruits into inferior oldmarines when you could make them primaris

I mean, the Blood Claws are gone in the fluff, the very few Grey Hunter left will soon turn into Long Fangs, and the Long Fangs are dying of old age lol.

You seem to be taking far too much joy in units which have been staples of a faction for a good 20+ years potentially being killed off in favour of cookie cutter units with no character.

 Dysartes wrote:

When you have 12 Great Companies to play with, each of which having a mix of units, do you really need to try to be special by being a successor?

Yes, because the point of making a successor chapter is to come up with your own fluff and most importantly the colour scheme. You can't really do that with the Great Companies.

And it's not stupid - it showed that not all geneseed is equally viable, which is a useful detail for the setting.

You can do that by saying that the Space Wolf geneseed is unstable and temperamental and as a result there are very few SW successor chapters.

You seem to be taking far too much joy in units which have been staples of a faction for a good 20+ years potentially being killed off in favour of cookie cutter units with no character.

Character doesn't come from an extra special weapon. People have converted absolutely amazing and characterful Primaris Space Wolves. Intercessors are perfect Grey Hunters as with veteran stratagem and sergeant options you can make them pretty formidable in melee while retaining decent shooting. And of course with the new Assault Intercessors you can have Primaris Blood Claws too. People say that they care about the lore, but to me it seems that they care about inconsequential technical details instead.

I very much like it because it will allow GW to more equally distribute their attention between the various chapters instead of heavily favoring Ultramarines (let's be honest here, Codex: Space Marines was basically Codex: Ultramarines up to this point), Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Dark Angels and Deathwatch. I say this as a Space Wolves player by the way.

Dysartes wrote:When you have 12 Great Companies to play with, each of which having a mix of units, do you really need to try to be special by being a successor?

Someone might want their own colour scheme, their own history, their own named heroes and features. For example, a Space Wolves successor that has a lot more in common with, say, Native American culture and aesthetic than Norse.

Sure, you might have 12 Great Companies, but what if you want to be descended from Russ, without being constrained by SW customs? In that same vein, why should anyone make their own Chapter, when you have 1000s to pick from?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Dysartes wrote:When you have 12 Great Companies to play with, each of which having a mix of units, do you really need to try to be special by being a successor?

Someone might want their own colour scheme, their own history, their own named heroes and features. For example, a Space Wolves successor that has a lot more in common with, say, Native American culture and aesthetic than Norse.

Sure, you might have 12 Great Companies, but what if you want to be descended from Russ, without being constrained by SW customs? In that same vein, why should anyone make their own Chapter, when you have 1000s to pick from?

Then it wouldn't be a Space Wolves Successor. They're shaped by their ties to Fenris.

What exactly would you get for a Native American culture and aesthetic for SW that you would not get from anyone else?

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Dysartes wrote:When you have 12 Great Companies to play with, each of which having a mix of units, do you really need to try to be special by being a successor?

Someone might want their own colour scheme, their own history, their own named heroes and features. For example, a Space Wolves successor that has a lot more in common with, say, Native American culture and aesthetic than Norse.

Sure, you might have 12 Great Companies, but what if you want to be descended from Russ, without being constrained by SW customs? In that same vein, why should anyone make their own Chapter, when you have 1000s to pick from?

Then it wouldn't be a Space Wolves Successor. They're shaped by their ties to Fenris.

Just like how all Ultramarines successors are tied to Macragge, or how all Dark Angels successors are obsessed with the Fallen (Star Phantoms and Relictors say hi)?
Nonsense. Successor Chapters aren't always obsessed with their parents. Will there be a leaning towards that? Sure, but it's not a requirement.

What exactly would you get for a Native American culture and aesthetic for SW that you would not get from anyone else?

You could lean into the more agrarian aspects. Wolves are/were important in Native American culture, with lots of stories and myths surrounding. So, purely on that base "wolf wolf wolf" aspect, they'd be an excellent fit.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Just like how all Ultramarines successors are tied to Macragge, or how all Dark Angels successors are obsessed with the Fallen (Star Phantoms and Relictors say hi)?
Nonsense. Successor Chapters aren't always obsessed with their parents. Will there be a leaning towards that? Sure, but it's not a requirement.

Way to miss the entire point. The whole point is that SW are uniquely tied to Fenris whereas other successors are not. Ultramarines are stable, by the book, Courage and Honour Warrior monks. SW are barbarian, animalistic vikings

Cornishman wrote:
How to Wolfyfy Primaris, now that Crawl's initial batch of Primaris are settled in so presumably the 'new' primaris are either oldborn crossing the rubicon or new recruits....

Take Assault Intercessors, Rename Primaris Blood Claws <tweek rules to taste>
Take Intercessors, rename Primaris Grey Hunters...
Take Hellblasters, rename to Longfang Hellblasters....

No need to tweak the rules. Just rename and it's sufficient.

 Dysartes wrote:
You seem to be taking far too much joy in units which have been staples of a faction for a good 20+ years potentially being killed off in favour of cookie cutter units with no character.

What joy? I can tell you I am quite unhappy with the amount of resources dedicated to the release of the "cookie cutter units with no character".

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Just like how all Ultramarines successors are tied to Macragge, or how all Dark Angels successors are obsessed with the Fallen (Star Phantoms and Relictors say hi)?
Nonsense. Successor Chapters aren't always obsessed with their parents. Will there be a leaning towards that? Sure, but it's not a requirement.

Way to miss the entire point. The whole point is that SW are uniquely tied to Fenris whereas other successors are not.

The SW can be uniquely tied to Fenris. Their successors don't have to be.

Let's put it another way - Space Wolves geneseed is capable of existing outside of Fenris, due to the initial Terran Legionnaires. It's not unbelievable that Cawl might have used some of the pure strain original geneseed (which there are versions of, for EVERY Legion, not just the loyalists), and some of that may have been used for a SW successor, who operate a lot less centrally to their Fenrisian brethren.

Plus, the Wolfspear aren't related to Fenris - more reasons that SW successors don't need Fenrisian support.

Ultramarines are stable, by the book, Courage and Honour Warrior monks. SW are barbarian, animalistic vikings

The BA geneseed isn't exactly stable either, yet have far more autonomy.

I think you're totally missing my comment: the Ultramarines might be Courage and Honour monks, but not all their successors are. The Space Wolves might be barbarian vikings, but their successors don't have to be. No-one's trying to change the SW: only that they can have successors who have room to be different. Plus, the whole barbarian and viking parts are less geneseed and more cultural upbringing, in the same way you have Ultramarines successors who are death worshippers (Mortifactors) or hyper-religious Imperial Creed fanatics who don't venerate Guilliman (Fire Angels) or even Celtic/Gaelic inspired 'barbarians' (Emperor's Spears).

Then there's nothing preventing you from doing counts-as Successors.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
The SW can be uniquely tied to Fenris. Their successors don't have to be.

Let's put it another way - Space Wolves geneseed is capable of existing outside of Fenris, due to the initial Terran Legionnaires. It's not unbelievable that Cawl might have used some of the pure strain original geneseed (which there are versions of, for EVERY Legion, not just the loyalists), and some of that may have been used for a SW successor, who operate a lot less centrally to their Fenrisian brethren.

Plus, the Wolfspear aren't related to Fenris - more reasons that SW successors don't need Fenrisian support.

How what that even work, if the SW supposed succesors had different gene seed from the one SW have, then they are not SW succesors, but some other chapter. If they used pre Russ on Fenris gene seed, then they would be Wolfs of Space succesors, and that legion had as much to do with Space Wolfes as Blood Angels had, before they were joined by Sanguinius.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Then there's nothing preventing you from doing counts-as Successors.

Sure - let's scrap all successors from every Chapter except... I don't know, the White Scars, and if you actually really wanted that heritage from someone else, well, tough luck, screw you, I guess?

That's absurd. Space Wolves not having successors has been (in my opinion) a terrible standpoint on the front of limiting player freedom, and I fully welcome it. It opens the floodgates for so much more creativity and encourages player freedom.

What kind of a freedom is that, if it goes against all the lore and how the setting functions. May as well start doing other weird stuff with marine lore and explain it with, Cawl did it.
Deus ex Machina is only good for comedies and greek tragedies, not for modern lore writing.

Non fenrisian SW makes as much sense as Primaris BA successors without the black rage and visions of death.