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 Type40 wrote:
space wolves don't have a stormwolf, wulfen, wulfen dreadnaughts, thunderwolves and etc ? those are as different as deamons, master of possessions, and etc. what is the the equivalent of those ?.. come on... why are you pretending that SW dont have unique and different units all of a sudden ?

p.s. custodes have landraiders and contemptors. 2/11 datasheets.
this means aproximately 20% of the custode codex is shared with SM.... just like SW ... guess the custodes should go in the SM codex as well huh ... if sharing 20% of your codex with SM makes them the same army ?

I am just saying, SW have more unique units that are not shared with SM or anyother chapters then custodes or harlequins have in total.

You forgot the FW options there buddy. That bumps the Custodes up to being a lot more unique than Space Wolves so there ya go.
Also Space Wolves share well over half the units.

Type40 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Type40 wrote:
space wolves don't have a stormwolf, wulfen, wulfen dreadnaughts, thunderwolves and etc ? those are as different as deamons, master of possessions, and etc. what is the the equivalent of those ?.. come on... why are you pretending that SW dont have unique and different units all of a sudden ?

For someone complaining about not reading what you're putting, you're doing a lot of that with me.

I didn't say at all that Space Wolves don't have unique and different units. Only that the MAJORITY of their units are essentially identical to generic ones. The same cannot be said of Chaos.

but the same CAN be said about chaos.

Still wrong there.

Honestly, the majority of their units are essentially identical in role to SM or SW. As much as the SW at least.

The biggest factor being that CSM have no Primaris, but SW do.

Why not ? What is a Beserker but a fancy assault marine ?

Raptors are closer to Assault Marines. Khorne Berzerkers have less mobility, but more sheer rip-and-tear.

what is a possesd but a different wulfen ?

Well, for one, Wulfen ARE a Chapter unique thing. Possessed are available to ALL Chaos, not just one warband.

Secondly, Wulfen have actual weapon options, no? I don't believe Possessed have that. Possessed would LOVE to be what Wulfen are.

p.s. custodes have landraiders and contemptors. 2/11 datasheets.
this means aproximately 20% of the custode codex is shared with SM.... just like SW ... guess the custodes should go in the SM codex as well huh ... if sharing 20% of your codex with SM makes them the same army ?

Sorry, what? You're saying that SW only share *20%* of their units with core Marines? That 80% of their whole army is unique? Yeah, no. No way.


Go and take a maths class. The Primaris ALONE would make up over 50%, not including the identical-in-all-but-name options like Wolf Guard, Wolf Lords and Great Company Ancients. There is no way that Space Wolves have anywhere near 50% unique units, let alone 80% like you claim.

I am just saying, SW have more unique units that are not shared with SM or anyother chapters then custodes or harlequins have in total.

Yes, they might have the most unique options *out of the other Chapters*. Yes, they might have more unique units than some armies have units entirely. But neither of those are necessarily justification for why they need their own unique Codex. After all, the Ultramarines in the previous version of the Codex had the most unique units out of all the other supplement choices, and had more unique units than some other armies had total - does that mean the Ultramarines should also have a unique Codex?

Why are we excluding named characters ?

I didn't.

the supplement wont ? there are about 25 unique HQ options alone...

No, there aren't. Scroll up just a little bit higher in the thread, and you'll see that, even INCLUDING named characters, there are only 28 unique SW units (and that's being generous).

There's no way that SW have anywhere near 50% unique units, let alone the 80% you claimed.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Type40 wrote:
space wolves don't have a stormwolf, wulfen, wulfen dreadnaughts, thunderwolves and etc ? those are as different as deamons, master of possessions, and etc. what is the the equivalent of those ?.. come on... why are you pretending that SW dont have unique and different units all of a sudden ?

p.s. custodes have landraiders and contemptors. 2/11 datasheets.
this means aproximately 20% of the custode codex is shared with SM.... just like SW ... guess the custodes should go in the SM codex as well huh ... if sharing 20% of your codex with SM makes them the same army ?

I am just saying, SW have more unique units that are not shared with SM or anyother chapters then custodes or harlequins have in total.

You forgot the FW options there buddy. That bumps the Custodes up to being a lot more unique than Space Wolves so there ya go.
Also Space Wolves share well over half the units.

space wolves have 53 unique data sheets in their codex. Sure the custodes have their forgeworld stuff, but that isnt in their codex just like the forgeworld SM stuff wont be in the new SM dex. again,,, even with ALL the custodes forgeworld stuff. there are still 53 unique datasheets for space wolves and not even close to that many datasheets for custodes in total across its entire faction (including forgeworld).

 Type40 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Type40 wrote:
space wolves don't have a stormwolf, wulfen, wulfen dreadnaughts, thunderwolves and etc ? those are as different as deamons, master of possessions, and etc. what is the the equivalent of those ?.. come on... why are you pretending that SW dont have unique and different units all of a sudden ?

p.s. custodes have landraiders and contemptors. 2/11 datasheets.
this means aproximately 20% of the custode codex is shared with SM.... just like SW ... guess the custodes should go in the SM codex as well huh ... if sharing 20% of your codex with SM makes them the same army ?

I am just saying, SW have more unique units that are not shared with SM or anyother chapters then custodes or harlequins have in total.

You forgot the FW options there buddy. That bumps the Custodes up to being a lot more unique than Space Wolves so there ya go.
Also Space Wolves share well over half the units.

space wolves have 53 unique data sheets in their codex. Sure the custodes have their forgeworld stuff, but that isnt in their codex just like the forgeworld SM stuff wont be in the new SM dex. again,,, even with ALL the custodes forgeworld stuff. there are still 53 unique datasheets for space wolves and not even close to that many datasheets for custodes in total across its entire faction (including forgeworld).

Well Smudge proved you incorrect on the unique datasheet end so...

No, there aren't. Scroll up just a little bit higher in the thread, and you'll see that, even INCLUDING named characters, there are only 28 unique SW units (and that's being generous).

32 unique space wolf HQ datasheets currently available... are you sure your looking at the same thing as me ? These are different data sheets from every SM datasheet.
and dont give me the whole "well there virtually the same as X" thing because CSM also have HQs who are virtually the same as X too.

You are excluding certain things because they are "different in all but name" but you arn't realizing that BLOODCLAW units interact specifically with wolfgaurd battle leaders and other rule interactions that happen from other units because of these units existing.

Smudge hasnt proved me wrong. this is, objectively, 56 UNIQUE datasheets. whether you want to nitpick that some are too similar to be considered different doesnt change the fact that they are unique datasheets. You wouldnt argue that raptors are just assault marines or CSM are just tactical marines or a chaos chosen / lord are the same as leutenants and captains. So stop doing it here. I said 53 before because I amalgemated the attack bikes and a few other units together while counting.

HQ
• Arjac Rockfist
• Battle Leaders in Phobos Armour
• Bjorn the Fell-handed
• Canis Wolfborn
• Harald Deathwolf
• Iron Priest
• Krom Dragongaze
• Logan Grimnar
• Njal Stormcaller
• Njal Stormcaller in Runic Terminator Armour
• Primaris Battle Leader
• Primaris Rune Priest
• Primaris Wolf Lord
• Rune Priest
• Rune Priest in Terminator Armour
• Ulrik the Slayer
• Wolf Guard Battle Leader
• Wolf Guard Battle Leader in Terminator Armour
• Wolf Guard Battle Leader on Thunderwolf
• Wolf Lord
• Wolf Lord in Cataphractii Armour
• Wolf Lord in Gravis Armour
• Wolf Lord in Terminator Armour
• Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf
• Logan Grimnar on Stormrider
• Primaris Battle Leaders in Phobos Armour
• Primaris Wolf Priest
• Ragnar Blackmane
• Rune Priest in Phobos Armour
• Wolf Lord in Phobos Armour
• Wolf Priest
• Wolf Priest in Terminator Armour

troop
• Blood Claws
• Grey Hunters

elites

• Great Company Ancient
• Great Company Champion
• Lukas the Trickster
• Murderfang
• Venerable Dreadnought
• Wolf Guard
• Wolf Guard Cataphractii Terminators
• Wolf Guard Tartaros Terminators
• Wolf Guard Terminators
• Wolf Scouts
• Wulfen
• Wulfen Dreadnought

fast attack

• Cyberwolves
• Fenrisian Wolves
• Skyclaws
• Swiftclaw Attack Bikes
• Swiftclaws
• Thunderwolf Cavalry
• Wolf Scout Bikers

flyers

• Stormfang Gunship
• Stormwolf

Heavy

• Long Fangs

But right htere 56 datasheets that are unique in the spacewolf codex. some of these units are WAY WAY different from SM and are incomparable. Some are similar and are comparable... just like anything out of the CSM codex.

So stop trying to say they arnt. those datasheets literally exist and literally do not exist in the SM dex.

 Type40 wrote:
You are excluding certain things because they are "different in all but name" but you arn't realizing that BLOODCLAW units interact specifically with wolfgaurd battle leaders and other rule interactions that happen from other units because of these units existing.

A lot of those HQs could be solved by appending an existing datasheet with a line that says something like:

• Primaris Lieutenant - This unit is also known as a Primaris Battle Leader when used in a Space Wolf or Space Wolf successor detachment.

Thus any name only unique data sheets are not a point in your favor with regards to unique unit count.

Type40 wrote:32 unique space wolf HQ datasheets currently available...

That's not how you spell 28.

are you sure your looking at the same thing as me ? These are different data sheets from every SM datasheet.

Having a different name isn't the same thing as a different datasheet.

and dont give me the whole "well there virtually the same as X" thing because CSM also have HQs who are virtually the same as X too.

I didn't bring CSM into this. And, for what it's worth, yeah, I'd call their Chaos Lords and Sorcerers pretty much the same as Captains and Librarians.

But Masters of Possession? Master of Executions? Lord Discordant? Daemon Prince? Not a chance. And that's without getting into unique characters.

You are excluding certain things because they are "different in all but name" but you arn't realizing that BLOODCLAW units interact specifically with wolfgaurd battle leaders and other rule interactions that happen from other units because of these units existing.

Simple. I've been suggesting fixes for this, which you've conveniently been ignoring:

"In a Space Wolves army, all Sternguard Veteran, Vanguard Veteran, Company Veteran and units with the <Terminator> keyword gain the <Wolf Guard> keyword."
Simple. Look what I needed to change? Oh, yeah, just the name.

Smudge hasnt proved me wrong. this is, objectively, 56 UNIQUE datasheets.

Oh, cool, so if I changed the names on all the units in my Codex, I'd be entitled to a new Codex, because me changing the names "objectively" makes the datasheets different? So, if I just put "Herpy Derpy" in front of all my unit names, I'd be entitled to a Codex, because they're all unique datasheets objectively?

Nonsense. A change in a name is not worth a datasheet. Who cares if Space Wolves call their Captains "Wolf Lords" - that's not a new datasheet. What, should White Scars get a new Librarian datasheet called a Stormseer just because it's their special name for it?

whether you want to nitpick that some are too similar to be considered different doesnt change the fact that they are unique datasheets.

If all you've got to justify their being unique is "b-b-b-b-b-but the names are different, that's totally unique", then you've lost this argument.

You wouldnt argue that raptors are just assault marines or CSM are just tactical marines or a chaos chosen / lord are the same as leutenants and captains.

Actually, I pretty much would, if it weren't for the fact that they don't share a faction keyword. If Chaos Marines were an Imperial army, I'd ask them to be folded in too. But, guess what - they're not an Imperial army, and don't share anywhere near the same proportion of units.

So stop doing it here.

Again, I just said that, if CSM had more keywords in common and had access to Primaris, I wouldn't be opposed to the idea.

I said 53 before because I amalgemated the attack bikes and a few other units together while counting.

And you were still wrong.

<snipping a bunch of useless listing>
But right htere 56 datasheets that are unique in the spacewolf codex.

Again, odd way of spelling 28.

some of these units are WAY WAY different from SM and are incomparable. Some are similar and are comparable

Yeah, some of them are unique. And others are literally just a name swap. Don't you dare pretend otherwise.

The main different between Chaos and the Space Wolf situation - look at the faction keywords of a Tactical Marine, a Grey Hunter, and a Chaos Marine. If you look REALLY closely, you might see that the Tactical Marine and Grey Hunter share two out of the three faction keywords - the only different one being the last (which changes even within the same Space Marine codex). But Chaos? Well, you'll see no similar keywords.

Almost like one is an entirely different race alltogther, and the other is an offshoot of a larger collective.

So stop trying to say they arnt. those datasheets literally exist and literally do not exist in the SM dex.

A name change isn't a unique unit. Get over yourself.

Yeah Wolf Lords are NOT unique hahahaha

 Canadian 5th wrote:
A lot of those HQs could be solved by appending an existing datasheet with a line that says something like:

• Primaris Lieutenant - This unit is also known as a Primaris Battle Leader when used in a Space Wolf or Space Wolf successor detachment.

Oh, I've been suggesting something like this, but nope! That name on the top is Totally Special!

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 Type40 wrote:
You are excluding certain things because they are "different in all but name" but you arn't realizing that BLOODCLAW units interact specifically with wolfgaurd battle leaders and other rule interactions that happen from other units because of these units existing.

A lot of those HQs could be solved by appending an existing datasheet with a line that says something like:

• Primaris Lieutenant - This unit is also known as a Primaris Battle Leader when used in a Space Wolf or Space Wolf successor detachment.

Thus any name only unique data sheets are not a point in your favor with regards to unique unit count.

they could be,,, but will they ,,, why bothering to create a supplement with 40+ datasheets or exceptions. i just dont think its going to happen.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Yeah Wolf Lords are NOT unique hahahaha

then niether are chaos lords.
You understand that right ? CSM can be included in the SM dex if this is the case. HAHAHAHAHAHA.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:
A lot of those HQs could be solved by appending an existing datasheet with a line that says something like:

• Primaris Lieutenant - This unit is also known as a Primaris Battle Leader when used in a Space Wolf or Space Wolf successor detachment.

Oh, I've been suggesting something like this, but nope! That name on the top is Totally Special!

ya WOLF GAURD do interact with other SW units in unique ways... unlike SM lieutenants. it is actually a thing. Bloodclaws arn't forced to charge when they are near them. i

 Type40 wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 Type40 wrote:
You are excluding certain things because they are "different in all but name" but you arn't realizing that BLOODCLAW units interact specifically with wolfgaurd battle leaders and other rule interactions that happen from other units because of these units existing.

A lot of those HQs could be solved by appending an existing datasheet with a line that says something like:

• Primaris Lieutenant - This unit is also known as a Primaris Battle Leader when used in a Space Wolf or Space Wolf successor detachment.

Thus any name only unique data sheets are not a point in your favor with regards to unique unit count.

they could be,,, but will they ,,, why bothering to create a supplement with 40+ datasheets or exceptions. i just dont think its going to happen.

So, basically, you're acting like GW have already done the worst possible option without knowing in advance what they're doing? Is that right?

I've not got any objections to, you know, some trepidation, some worry - but when nearly all your comments in this thread have been "GW'S STRIPPING AWAY EVERYTHING FROM MY CODEX WHY CAN'T YOU SEE THAT" and having a problem when people tell you that you can't know that for sure, then I'm going to call you out on that.

Also, 40+ isn't how you spell 28.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Type40 wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 Type40 wrote:
You are excluding certain things because they are "different in all but name" but you arn't realizing that BLOODCLAW units interact specifically with wolfgaurd battle leaders and other rule interactions that happen from other units because of these units existing.

A lot of those HQs could be solved by appending an existing datasheet with a line that says something like:

• Primaris Lieutenant - This unit is also known as a Primaris Battle Leader when used in a Space Wolf or Space Wolf successor detachment.

Thus any name only unique data sheets are not a point in your favor with regards to unique unit count.

they could be,,, but will they ,,, why bothering to create a supplement with 40+ datasheets or exceptions. i just dont think its going to happen.

So, basically, you're acting like GW have already done the worst possible option without knowing in advance what they're doing? Is that right?

I've not got any objections to, you know, some trepidation, some worry - but when nearly all your comments in this thread have been "GW'S STRIPPING AWAY EVERYTHING FROM MY CODEX WHY CAN'T YOU SEE THAT" and having a problem when people tell you that you can't know that for sure, then I'm going to call you out on that.

Also, 40+ isn't how you spell 28.

seriously ... how are you not seeing the list I keep posting... here it is again. 28 isn't how you spell counting this list I keep posting.

HQ
• Arjac Rockfist
• Battle Leaders in Phobos Armour
• Bjorn the Fell-handed
• Canis Wolfborn
• Harald Deathwolf
• Iron Priest
• Krom Dragongaze
• Logan Grimnar
• Njal Stormcaller
• Njal Stormcaller in Runic Terminator Armour
• Primaris Battle Leader
• Primaris Rune Priest
• Primaris Wolf Lord
• Rune Priest
• Rune Priest in Terminator Armour
• Ulrik the Slayer
• Wolf Guard Battle Leader
• Wolf Guard Battle Leader in Terminator Armour
• Wolf Guard Battle Leader on Thunderwolf
• Wolf Lord
• Wolf Lord in Cataphractii Armour
• Wolf Lord in Gravis Armour
• Wolf Lord in Terminator Armour
• Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf
• Logan Grimnar on Stormrider
• Primaris Battle Leaders in Phobos Armour
• Primaris Wolf Priest
• Ragnar Blackmane
• Rune Priest in Phobos Armour
• Wolf Lord in Phobos Armour
• Wolf Priest
• Wolf Priest in Terminator Armour

troop
• Blood Claws
• Grey Hunters

elites

• Great Company Ancient
• Great Company Champion
• Lukas the Trickster
• Murderfang
• Venerable Dreadnought
• Wolf Guard
• Wolf Guard Cataphractii Terminators
• Wolf Guard Tartaros Terminators
• Wolf Guard Terminators
• Wolf Scouts
• Wulfen
• Wulfen Dreadnought

fast attack

• Cyberwolves
• Fenrisian Wolves
• Skyclaws
• Swiftclaw Attack Bikes
• Swiftclaws
• Thunderwolf Cavalry
• Wolf Scout Bikers

flyers

• Stormfang Gunship
• Stormwolf

Heavy

• Long Fangs


Do you seriously not think thats 40+ datasheets/exceptions to core datasheets ? I am even saying 40+ because fine if we lose a few of the unique things...


Now fine. MAYBE they dont get rid of all the unique units... but then why bother giving SW access to all the SM stuff like tac marines and assault marines then, why not just leave it as a seperate codex ? it doesnt make sense for them to do this unless they are white breading the faction.

 Type40 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Yeah Wolf Lords are NOT unique hahahaha

then niether are chaos lords.
You understand that right ? CSM can be included in the SM dex if this is the case. HAHAHAHAHAHA.

Um, you know that Slayer-Fan here is the BIGGEST advocate for merging CSM into the main Codex, right?

You've picked the wrong person to use that 'gotcha' on.

ya WOLF GAURD do interact with other SW units in unique ways... unlike SM lieutenants.

Only because of a single keyword interacting with a rule on the unit that's being affect, not even on the Wolf Guard itself.

Something which is fixed simply by having a single keyword added. That one keyword being added doesn't change that they're basically a default Lieutenant or Veteran. Hell, you could change the keyword on the Blood Claws to say "unless within 6" of a LIEUTENANT or VETERAN or TERMINATOR" instead, and it would have the same mechanical effects.

it is actually a thing. Bloodclaws arn't forced to charge when they are near them. i

That's literally only because Space Wolf lieutenants have a fancy name. That's it.

It's the equivalent of saying "Imperial Fists need a unique Captain datasheet, because Salamanders Captains don't give Imperial Fists an aura ability". They're not unique, they're a single keyword off being just like everyone else.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Type40 wrote:

seriously ... how are you not seeing the list I keep posting... here it is again.

I'm seeing your list. Maybe you missed the part where I showed how utterly incorrect your logic is on it? Just scroll up, and you'll see it.

Do you seriously not think thats 40+ datasheets/exceptions to core datasheets ?

Nope, Definitely still only 28.

I am even saying 40+ because fine if we lose a few of the unique things...

40+ isn't 28. Your math looks a bit wrong.

Now fine. MAYBE they dont get rid of all the unique units... but then why bother giving SW access to all the SM stuff like tac marines and assault marines then, why not just leave it as a seperate codex ? it doesnt make sense for them to do this unless they are white breading the faction.

Because more than likely, GW might write in the SW supplement "you don't get access to these units" OR might do as I've been suggesting, and put in some kind of blanket ability on *insert list of squads that can have Terminator sergeants* and say they can have Terminator Sergeants.
There are myriads of ways that they can have SW draw units from the core Codex without forcing them to change their lists.

The reason they're not a separate Codex is because over 50% of the units in it will be shared, and because you can keep all the same mechanical functions without needing to reprint those same identical units in another book.
Because when nearly all your HQs are practically the same, practically all your vehicles are the same, nearly half of your range of units (Primaris) are the same, when you share a massive proportion of stratagem abilities and keywords - you're not exactly as distinct as you were.

If Space Wolves didn't have Primaris Marines, I'd fully support their independence. But they don't. And combined with all the other factors, they make more sense being supplemented.

We can probably look at the old Marine Index for hints how this will be handled.

 Crimson wrote:
We can probably look at the old Marine Index for hints how this will be handled.

Quite right.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Type40 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Yeah Wolf Lords are NOT unique hahahaha

then niether are chaos lords.
You understand that right ? CSM can be included in the SM dex if this is the case. HAHAHAHAHAHA.

Um, you know that Slayer-Fan here is the BIGGEST advocate for merging CSM into the main Codex, right?

You've picked the wrong person to use that 'gotcha' on.

ya WOLF GAURD do interact with other SW units in unique ways... unlike SM lieutenants.

Only because of a single keyword interacting with a rule on the unit that's being affect, not even on the Wolf Guard itself.

Something which is fixed simply by having a single keyword added. That one keyword being added doesn't change that they're basically a default Lieutenant or Veteran. Hell, you could change the keyword on the Blood Claws to say "unless within 6" of a LIEUTENANT or VETERAN or TERMINATOR" instead, and it would have the same mechanical effects.

it is actually a thing. Bloodclaws arn't forced to charge when they are near them. i

That's literally only because Space Wolf lieutenants have a fancy name. That's it.

It's the equivalent of saying "Imperial Fists need a unique Captain datasheet, because Salamanders Captains don't give Imperial Fists an aura ability". They're not unique, they're a single keyword off being just like everyone else.

Yes exactly, but it isnt just this ONE exception. In order for the faction to operate in the unique way it does now you are saying that they are going to make exception, after exception, after exception.
I know you keep posting how its an easy fix and another easy fix and another easy fix... but again, do you really think this supplement is going to be 40+ datasheets AND exceptions. Why would they do that instead of just having a seperate codex... rolling them, together can only mean white breading... otherwise it wouldnt make sense to do it .... because otherwise this supplement is just going to be a big book of exceptions and datasheets more confusing then anything they have ever published. an easy fix isnt easy when you have 40+ of them to make.

and if he thinks that CSM should be merged as well then he can advocate for that and make his points even more moot all he wants. I honestly am tired of people defending the decisions by GW that is making this game feel more like its always just the same factions playing against each other. I am tried of people seeming to defend the fact that GW just wants to sell its customers one range of models so they dont have to invest in other rules / model ranges. In 5 years when your generic spiky marines are fighting my generic marines with wolf pelts who are using the exact same rules and we have the exact same list, its going to be a boring game. But the game will be perfectly balanced and GW will release new models for "THE" list every few months and everyone will just play the same boring gak all the time.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Um, you know that Slayer-Fan here is the BIGGEST advocate for merging CSM into the main Codex, right?
You've picked the wrong person to use that 'gotcha' on.

Which is a questionable idea in and of itself...but hopefully CSM are going to get a similar embiggening/supplementing for their books. If nothing else, DG+TS should see Daemons added.

Overwhelmingly positive for a balance prospective.

 Type40 wrote:
Yes exactly, but it isnt just this ONE exception. In order for the faction to operate in the unique way it does now you are saying that they are going to make exception, after exception, after exception.

All of which fit onto one page.

You're making this out to be a lot harder than it is.

Let me demonstrate:

I know you keep posting how its an easy fix and another easy fix and another easy fix... but again, do you really think this supplement is going to be 40+ datasheets AND exceptions.

One page would cover the exceptions and new charts and rules like Healing Balms. And it only needs 28 datasheets (less, actually, because of my changes to what would be the core Techmarine, which would let the Iron Priest work fine), which is about 9 pages. Include a 10th for the exceptions page.

Yup, that's not exactly going to be an issue.

Why would they do that instead of just having a seperate codex... rolling them, together can only mean white breading...

You're obsessed with this idea that GW will HAVE to "white bread" them. Have you actually ever considered that they won't do that?

otherwise it wouldnt make sense to do it .... because otherwise this supplement is just going to be a big book of exceptions and datasheets more confusing then anything they have ever published. an easy fix isnt easy when you have 40+ of them to make.

If it goes by what I've described, it only needs to be 6 pages longer than what the Ultramarines have. That's *it*.

It'll be a sliver larger - much less of a difference between something like the gap between Space Marines and Genestealer Cults.

I honestly am tired of people defending the decisions by GW that is making this game feel more like its always just the same factions playing against each other. I am tried of people seeming to defend the fact that GW just wants to sell its customers one range of models so they dont have to invest in other rules / model ranges. In 5 years when your generic spiky marines are fighting my generic marines with wolf pelts who are using the exact same rules and we have the exact same list, its going to be a boring game. But the game will be perfectly balanced and GW will release new models for "THE" list every few months and everyone will just play the same boring gak all the time.

Sounds like you're someone who's convinced a certain way will play out, and has already decided, against actual evidence, what's going to happen.

I can't stop you being negative. But I very much can tell you that shouting about how GW are *definitely* going to do XYZ before seeing what happens isn't an argument.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Um, you know that Slayer-Fan here is the BIGGEST advocate for merging CSM into the main Codex, right?
You've picked the wrong person to use that 'gotcha' on.

Which is a questionable idea in and of itself...but hopefully CSM are going to get a similar embiggening/supplementing for their books. If nothing else, DG+TS should see Daemons added.

I'd like Chaos to get more. I'd like to see things like actual snipers, some more Daemonic units, a mix of new less corrupted units and heavily corrupted daemon infested ones.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Um, you know that Slayer-Fan here is the BIGGEST advocate for merging CSM into the main Codex, right?
You've picked the wrong person to use that 'gotcha' on.

Which is a questionable idea in and of itself...but hopefully CSM are going to get a similar embiggening/supplementing for their books. If nothing else, DG+TS should see Daemons added.

I'd like that too. Make the main CSM book about Renegade Chapters, and have supplements for Legions.... Fair is fair, and could mean Ironwarriors, Word Bearers, Alpha Legion, etc, that aren't affiliated with a specific god might get special units themselves.

I think it should stop there though. Just for SM and CSM. Any more factions and it could get out of hand.....

I must admit, I’d be well in favour of a ‘Renegades’ supplement for C:SM that covers recent renegades. Just needs a line to the effect of “Replace <Imperium> and <Adeptus Astartes> with <Chaos>, <Heretic Astartes> and <Renegades>”

Then you can use C:CSM to cover the legions as they should be and actual chaosy stuff and combine them freely.

Would be awesome!

Cornishman wrote:
But being Headstrong Berserkers is a key thing that differentiates Blood Claws from regular Assault Marines. Simply renaming Assault Intercessors would lose this quintessential essence from the Blood Claw.

Chapter trait and/or specific stratagem will get you covered Cornishman.
Like maybe a nice thing rule saying you never get the benefit from cover, but you get to reroll any 1 in your charge roll, that would work great!

I Like how everyone was fine from 3.5 csm dex to 4 csm dex everything got consolidated and simplyfied , yet when their faction get's to the chopping Block ...

Not Online!!! wrote:
I Like how everyone was fine from 3.5 csm dex to 4 csm dex everything got consolidated and simplyfied , yet when their faction get's to the chopping Block ...

To be fair, I'd hazard that a decent chunk of people (myself included) just plain weren't around for that.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Um, you know that Slayer-Fan here is the BIGGEST advocate for merging CSM into the main Codex, right?
You've picked the wrong person to use that 'gotcha' on.

Which is a questionable idea in and of itself...but hopefully CSM are going to get a similar embiggening/supplementing for their books. If nothing else, DG+TS should see Daemons added.

I'm for three different mergings:
1. The 9 Legions get their own codex. Everyone has Vet stats at minimum outside Cultists (duh) and Havocs (having two attacks with that gun is hard). Reworked Legions obviously with everyone just getting 4 or so unique units. I had ideas already on those things in the Proposed Rules subforum and elsewhere.
2. Loyalist Scum, which would also cover Renegade Chapters + cover Huron. Your Chapter or Successor gets 4 or so unique units. Renegades lose those unique units for equivalents of more mutated/warp fethery.
3. Grey Knights and Deathwatch go into a combined Inquisition codex. I would want Sisters in there too, which some people threw a hissy fit about.

Initially I wanted Space Wolves separate but decided in the end they don't HAVE that much going for them in terms of uniqueness. Hell, their supposed Vets being Long Fangs sure as hell don't feel like Vets whatsoever.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
I Like how everyone was fine from 3.5 csm dex to 4 csm dex everything got consolidated and simplyfied , yet when their faction get's to the chopping Block ...

To be fair, I'd hazard that a decent chunk of people (myself included) just plain weren't around for that.

I was it's also something that recently happened aswell with certain factions losing basically all options from 7th to 8th and when These Players dared to complain they were called whiners or told to "just wait".

Tbf i feel Like a propperly Handeled consolidation with the quitessential Units found in the supplements including the correct restrictions and options a better option then what happened to csm there or DE or fw armies ,but it Swings either Way really.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
3. Grey Knights and Deathwatch go into a combined Inquisition codex. I would want Sisters in there too, which some people threw a hissy fit about.

Sisters have 0 in common with the grey knights or the death watch, and they aren't related to the Inquisition, and unlike the GK and DW they are a full, general purpose army, not some extra-specialized forces.

As a Space Wolf player since 2nd edition i am wary of the changes but i think it's a bit misleading to say that we have 40+ unique entries.

Most of them can be easily covered by simple edits such as:
• access to a Space Wolf Wargear/Weapon list
• change their min/max unit size
• additional keyword that confers an appropriate rule (e.g. Assault Marines gain Blood Claw rules, Chaplain gains Apothecary abilities)

If i recall it's how most of it was done in 3rd edition.

Will this be a bit confusing? Perhaps, depends how it is pulled off.

Really (outwith named characters) there are only a handful of entries that i would consider truly unique to the Space Wolves and which couldn't be covered by the small edits to the Space Marine equivalent; those being:
• Cyberwolves
• Fenrisian Wolves
• Wulfen
• Thunderwolf Cavalry
• Stormfang Gunship
• Stormwolf

Pretty much everything else does have a Space Marine equivalent and could be handled with small edits.

Don't Grey Hunters, all versions of bloodclaws and WG have different stats, rules and weapon options that can't be taken by other marines. I have no expiriance playing against SW, but from what I think I can remember GH can't take heavy weapons and blood claws aren't tactical marines either.

SW scouts are elite, and their dreadnoughts run around with storm shields.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
I Like how everyone was fine from 3.5 csm dex to 4 csm dex everything got consolidated and simplyfied , yet when their faction get's to the chopping Block ...

To be fair, I'd hazard that a decent chunk of people (myself included) just plain weren't around for that.

I was it's also something that recently happened aswell with certain factions losing basically all options from 7th to 8th and when These Players dared to complain they were called whiners or told to "just wait".

Tbf i feel Like a propperly Handeled consolidation with the quitessential Units found in the supplements including the correct restrictions and options a better option then what happened to csm there or DE or fw armies ,but it Swings either Way really.

Its basically what happened with Marines though.
I thought the 3.5 edition was the coolest thing in 40k. But very quickly, it was less "oh I've always been an X faction player, its cool I get some unique fluffy features" - and more "this is the most overpowered combo, I've totally always been EC, IW, whatever though, so its fine yeah?". This isn't surprising - and back then GW didn't even pretend to care about balance - but over time it grew obnoxious.
So... yeah, by 4th edition I was probably in the "bored of this, kill it with fire" camp.

Feel exactly the same as Marines. In principle I'm a big fan of the supplements - and sort of wish, even if the player numbers would be tiny, they would be rolled out for everyone. Or there were just a lot more rules per faction in each codex.
But now, if Guilliman were to accidentally sign the wrong piece of paper giving the Iron Hands the 2nd and 11th treatment, and they were squatted beyond even the Squats themselves, I'd be okay with it.
Bad luck for the literally 6 Iron Hands players out there pre the supplement, but so it goes.