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I think i would be more comfortable to see a Primaris upgrade option to Grey Hunters, Blood Claws, Long Fangs and Wolf Guard (+1 Wound, +1 Attack, +points, voila).

I just don't want to see the Space Marines i have known and loved for years be sidelined which is currently where i think things are going.

I can foresee a time when all the classic Space Marine options will be 'Legends' and no longer supported. It may not be this edition, or even next edition, but i can see it happening.

I do understand that GW have probably felt this was needed to be done in order to encourage people to purchase new Space Marine armies. I am just a Space Marine purist and prefer the Classic options.

Karol wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
The SW can be uniquely tied to Fenris. Their successors don't have to be.

Let's put it another way - Space Wolves geneseed is capable of existing outside of Fenris, due to the initial Terran Legionnaires. It's not unbelievable that Cawl might have used some of the pure strain original geneseed (which there are versions of, for EVERY Legion, not just the loyalists), and some of that may have been used for a SW successor, who operate a lot less centrally to their Fenrisian brethren.

Plus, the Wolfspear aren't related to Fenris - more reasons that SW successors don't need Fenrisian support.

How what that even work, if the SW supposed succesors had different gene seed from the one SW have then they are not SW succesors, but some other chapter.

It's not different geneseed, it's simply the original used by the first Terran Legions. It's still Leman Russ' geneseed, but in a purer form, with less geneseed degradation.

If they used pre Russ on Fenris gene seed, then they would be Wolfs of Space succesors, and that legion had as much to do with Space Wolfes as Blood Angels had, before they were joined by Sanguinius.

You might be confusing how geneseed works and how it fitted into the chronology of the Legions?

Space Wolves geneseed existed before Russ had even landed on Fenris, because it was translated from him during infancy. Primarchs first, then geneseed taken from them, then the Primarchs being scattered, and then the Legions being raised - at least from my current understanding?

But, more fundamentally, just because a geneseed is more pure doesn't change that it's still 'Space Wolves geneseed'.

Aren't the hellblasters and heavy intercessors, or the erdictors kind of a like long fangs? And the different intercessors could as well be GH or BC, just by virtue of having basic +1A.

The only unit hard to transfer are the WG, as those are kind of a very space wolf specific.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Then there's nothing preventing you from doing counts-as Successors.

Sure - let's scrap all successors from every Chapter except... I don't know, the White Scars, and if you actually really wanted that heritage from someone else, well, tough luck, screw you, I guess?

That's absurd. Space Wolves not having successors has been (in my opinion) a terrible standpoint on the front of limiting player freedom, and I fully welcome it. It opens the floodgates for so much more creativity and encourages player freedom.

Okay, let's be real here:
There is nothing "heritage" related about the rules for Space Wolves. It's the models that have that going.

I don't know what to tell you other than that. There's not really anything unique lost by running a Successor for Space Wolves as 'counts as' compared to the current Successor setup--if anything, it's actually better doing it that way since you can do 'counts as' versions of the various characters.

Karol wrote:What kind of a freedom is that, if it goes against all the lore and how the setting functions.

It really doesn't.

As we've seen, current lore supports that those with SW geneseed don't *need* Fenris. Sources - pre-Russ Space Wolves (Terran) and the Wolfspear.

May as well start doing other weird stuff with marine lore and explain it with, Cawl did it.

Depending on what that 'weird stuff' is, I have no issues with that.

If it adds to player freedoms without vastly taking away from other things, what's the problem?

Deus ex Machina is only good for comedies and greek tragedies, not for modern lore writing.

Space Wolves getting successors isn't Deus-Ex-Machina, not in any classical sense at least, more in it's bastardised sense.

Non fenrisian SW makes as much sense as Primaris BA successors without the black rage and visions of death.

Is now a good time to tell you that the Lamenters Chapter very much *did* nearly bypass the above conditions?

Also, Fenrisian just means 'of Fenris'. They don't need to be on Fenris to suffer from the Canis Helix or Curse of the Wulfen. Those are two totally different things. I'd be all on board with, say, my aforementioned Native American SW successor having a Curse of the Wulfen effect, and being known within that Chapter as Wendigos or something.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Then there's nothing preventing you from doing counts-as Successors.

Sure - let's scrap all successors from every Chapter except... I don't know, the White Scars, and if you actually really wanted that heritage from someone else, well, tough luck, screw you, I guess?

That's absurd. Space Wolves not having successors has been (in my opinion) a terrible standpoint on the front of limiting player freedom, and I fully welcome it. It opens the floodgates for so much more creativity and encourages player freedom.

Okay, let's be real here:
There is nothing "heritage" related about the rules for Space Wolves. It's the models that have that going.

Heritage can still be found in the fluff, and in regards to rules, things like wanting wolf cavalry or keen senses can be very desirable, with no real way to count-as completely.

I don't know what to tell you other than that. There's not really anything unique lost by running a Successor for Space Wolves as 'counts as' compared to the current Successor setup--if anything, it's actually better doing it that way since you can do 'counts as' versions of the various characters.

Likewise, there's nothing unique lost by scrapping all Successor rules and just having any successors from any Chapters just pretending to be whatever rules suit them.

Basically, all I'm saying is that if people who want SW successors need to settle for count-as, everyone else should too.

Hey Smudge, do you have anything saying the Wolfspear aren't Fenrisian?

All I can find a mention of is them being of "The Unnumbered Sons" and this:

The Wolfspear were among the Primaris Space Marine Chapters created during the Ultima Founding at the direct order of Roboute Guilliman and were created after the conclusion of the Indomitus Crusade, from Space Wolves descended members of the Unnumbered Sons. The Chapter was then charged by Guilliman with guarding the Pit of Raukos from any future Chaos incursions - to the dismay of some members of the Wolfspear, who had hoped to continue fighting on the front-lines against the Imperium's enemies. Further clouding the minds of the Chapter is that although the Space Wolves have allowed Primaris Space Marines into their ranks, it is not known if they will accept the Wolfspear as true Sons of Russ.

I haven't read the Dark Imperium novel so can't comment.

Sgt_Smudge wrote:Likewise, there's nothing unique lost by scrapping all Successor rules and just having any successors from any Chapters just pretending to be whatever rules suit them.

Basically, all I'm saying is that if people who want SW successors need to settle for count-as, everyone else should too.

*shrug*
It's only recently that we started seeing actual rules based stuff for Successors again. It wouldn't be a huge loss beyond it being related to what you can/can't draw from for stratagems and relics.

It's not different geneseed, it's simply the original used by the first Terran Legions. It's still Leman Russ' geneseed, but in a purer form, with less geneseed degradation

Original fenrisians use gene splicing to better themselfs with animal gene stock. This had strange effects on fenrisian born marines, when SW gene seed was put in to them, as it kind of a resonated and gave birth to things like the wulfen. After 10k years of being used and generation and generations of fenrisian people, the gene seed that the SW have and use right now, is drasticly different from what was put in to terran born wolfs of space.

Both are and were marines, but the terrans had non of the pack mentality or obediance fenrisians have. In fact before fenrisian born space wolfs became a thing, the legion was uncontrolable to a point where it had the highest number of bost battle executions of any legions. Only WE and BA were worse, but those were totaly uncontrolable, and from what I read indistinguishable.

Whats the point in having different legions at all.. they are all just primaris.

Seriouisly @sgt_smudge, you are missing my point completely. They are REMOVING OPTIONS AND UNIQUENESS AND I WANT THEM TO KEEP THE OPTIONS OPEN. You seem obssessed with this idea that because i dont like your option I am gatekeeping. I dont care if you play primaris, I dont care who plays them... Great, enjoy them. I have a problem with being told my stuff is invalid and needs to become cookie cutter white bread. I dont want to play your army I perfectly enjoyed playing my army. You are the one gatekeeping, you are the ones telling us to convert to the new white bread cookie cutter standards or stop playing with your precious power armor. Screw that.

I dont want to play SM i want to play SW.

@Crimson, the very fact that they are taking the unique stuff out of the lore is what I have a problem with. its only being taken out so we re-buy our entire armies and "upgrade" to generic primaris mechanics. I want to play SW , I dont want to play SM , i didnt choose the army because they were SM i chose them for all the fluff, flavour and unique mechanics that came with them... otherwise i would have picked SM and i would have made them aesthetically wolfy.

It is honestly ridiculous that people are trying to tell me I am being gatekeepy because I don't like that in order to play the army I bought I need to give up the unique units i chose the army for and play bland units that didnt exist until 2 years ago.

Have the primaris option. but stop trying to tell me my faction isnt different because the unique and different stuff is "obsolete". who do you think made them obsolete ? maybe it was GW who did by injecting replacements to everything you already bought into the lore... common guys get some perspective.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Hey Smudge, do you have anything saying the Wolfspear aren't Fenrisian?

All I can find a mention of is them being of "The Unnumbered Sons" and this:

The Wolfspear were among the Primaris Space Marine Chapters created during the Ultima Founding at the direct order of Roboute Guilliman and were created after the conclusion of the Indomitus Crusade, from Space Wolves descended members of the Unnumbered Sons. The Chapter was then charged by Guilliman with guarding the Pit of Raukos from any future Chaos incursions - to the dismay of some members of the Wolfspear, who had hoped to continue fighting on the front-lines against the Imperium's enemies. Further clouding the minds of the Chapter is that although the Space Wolves have allowed Primaris Space Marines into their ranks, it is not known if they will accept the Wolfspear as true Sons of Russ.

I haven't read the Dark Imperium novel so can't comment.

Having read Dark Imperium, there was no mention of the Wolfspear being Fenrisian.
One of the two (I think) Wolfspear characters we see is definitely *from* Fenris (or at least, acts like he is), but is also explicitly from 10,000 years ago, having been kept frozen in stasis.

Basically, the Wolfspear are made up initially of Primaris Marines of Russ' ancestry who were frozen 10,000 years ago, and then formed their own Chapter, which, presumably, doesn't recruit from Fenris, what with the two planets being pretty far away (practically on other sides of the galaxy, I think). Therefore, it's pretty unlikely that they're reliant on Fenrisian natives.

Tough luck buddy because Space Wolves ARE Space Marines. You don't need the influx of everything being different just because. It's a lot healthier for the game to treat them the same.

Karol wrote:

It's not different geneseed, it's simply the original used by the first Terran Legions. It's still Leman Russ' geneseed, but in a purer form, with less geneseed degradation

Original fenrisians use gene splicing to better themselfs with animal gene stock. This had strange effects on fenrisian born marines, when SW gene seed was put in to them, as it kind of a resonated and gave birth to things like the wulfen. After 10k years of being used and generation and generations of fenrisian people, the gene seed that the SW have and use right now, is drasticly different from what was put in to terran born wolfs of space.

Both are and were marines, but the terrans had non of the pack mentality or obediance fenrisians have. In fact before fenrisian born space wolfs became a thing, the legion was uncontrolable to a point where it had the highest number of bost battle executions of any legions. Only WE and BA were worse, but those were totaly uncontrolable, and from what I read indistinguishable.

Right, but the Terrans still had Russ's geneseed in them. Ostensibly, they were/are still Space Wolves, and should be regarded as successor Chapters of Russ' lineage.

The actual Space Wolves Chapter might be reliant on Fenrisians, but the Space Wolves geneseed does not need it.

(Also, ironic that you'd say the Fenrisians have obedience, because they seem to boast about their feral-ness!)

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Cornishman wrote:
How to Wolfyfy Primaris, now that Crawl's initial batch of Primaris are settled in so presumably the 'new' primaris are either oldborn crossing the rubicon or new recruits....

Take Assault Intercessors, Rename Primaris Blood Claws <tweek rules to taste>
Take Intercessors, rename Primaris Grey Hunters...
Take Hellblasters, rename to Longfang Hellblasters....

No need to tweak the rules. Just rename and it's sufficient.

But being Headstrong Berserkers is a key thing that differentiates Blood Claws from regular Assault Marines. Simply renaming Assault Intercessors would lose this quintessential essence from the Blood Claw.

Type40 wrote:Whats the point in having different legions at all.. they are all just primaris.

So, you don't think Imperial Fists, Raven Guard, Iron Hands, etc etc should exist, because they don't have unique units?

What about before Primaris were a thing, and all of the above Chapters still had the same rules? Was there no point in them being unique? Did they not have unique cultures and histories?

Seriouisly @sgt_smudge, you are missing my point completely. They are REMOVING OPTIONS AND UNIQUENESS AND I WANT THEM TO KEEP THE OPTIONS OPEN.

No, they're not.

Or, if you still feel so insistent, prove it.

You're missing my point - which is don't scream about something unless it's actually happening. And until you can show me that it is, don't expect me to stop mentioning it.

You seem obssessed with this idea that because i dont like your option I am gatekeeping.

I said you were gatekeeping because you very heavily implied that "If you care about the lore, you wouldn't play Primaris".

Nothing about my opinion, entirely with your ideas that Primaris Wolves are somehow less valid than Firstborn ones. And if that's your own personal standards, you're welcome to them! But don't turn around and use the whole "if you care about the lore" dogwhistle.

I have a problem with being told my stuff is invalid and needs to become cookie cutter white bread.

Great news! No-one is telling you that!

Stop. Making. Up. Things. GW haven't invalidated anything yet as far as we can tell. When/if they do, different story - but that's not true according to our current understanding of the situation. Look at what we know, not making up things.

You are the one gatekeeping, you are the ones telling us to convert to the new white bread cookie cutter standards

Again, no-one's saying that.

Stop making gak up.

@Crimson, the very fact that they are taking the unique stuff out of the lore is what I have a problem with.

And that stuff is...?

It is honestly ridiculous that people are trying to tell me I am being gatekeepy because I don't like that in order to play the army I bought I need to give up the unique units i chose the army for

No-one said that.

I called you gatekeepy because you made an appeal to "if you cared about lore, you do XYZ". I don't care how *you* enjoy your army, but when you start turning around and acting all "well this is the TRUUUUUE way to play", then I'm going to have an issue.

Read my arguments. I don't care about how you play, but don't act like there's "one true way".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cornishman wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Cornishman wrote:
How to Wolfyfy Primaris, now that Crawl's initial batch of Primaris are settled in so presumably the 'new' primaris are either oldborn crossing the rubicon or new recruits....

Take Assault Intercessors, Rename Primaris Blood Claws <tweek rules to taste>
Take Intercessors, rename Primaris Grey Hunters...
Take Hellblasters, rename to Longfang Hellblasters....

No need to tweak the rules. Just rename and it's sufficient.

But being Headstrong Berserkers is a key thing that differentiates Blood Claws from regular Assault Marines. Simply renaming Assault Intercessors would lose this quintessential essence from the Blood Claw.

Okay - introduce a rule where in <Space Wolves> <Assault Intercessor> Squads gain the Headstrong Berserkers ability.
One sentence fix.

Or, something instead like "Space Wolves Assault Intercessor, Assault Marine, and Bike Squads all gain the <Blood Claws> keyword. Models with the <Blood Claws> keyword gain the Headstrong Berserkers rule."

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Tough luck buddy because Space Wolves ARE Space Marines. You don't need the influx of everything being different just because. It's a lot healthier for the game to treat them the same.

cool then put the CSM and GK in the great power armor codex as well. Why not, they are all SM right ?
Why bother having unique armies at all in fact ? why not just make the entire game SM. Everyone has access to exactly the same stuff only. That would fix balance at least. We don't need the influx of everything being different just because... I get you. In a game that has introduced variations and separate factions over the past 20 years whilst enticing people to have unique and customized war games that suit what they like and enjoy playing. Its better to remove all variation and all uniqueness in the armies... that makes sense, its definitely what made this game popular over the years. You guys are talking about how you want SW to have successor chapters... why,,, if they are all just gonna be primaris. oh great, you have a slightly different chapter tactic then the other primaris,,, but your army is exactly the same.

Come on, stop buying this crap. The game is being turned into white bread so they can sell more copies of generic models they are making to more people and the fact that so many people are buying it up like they are serving them gold is just ridiculous. They don't care about your army they just want you to replace everything you bought before with their new stuff and they dont even want to put the effort in to making anything unique.

lol , they ARE space marines... ya, CSM ARE also space marines. Dark Eldar ARE eldar, maybe commorragh should just be a craftworld ?
What about the TS and DG ,,, shouldnt they be in the SM or at least the CSM codex ? they ARE Space Marines ? again,,, "we don't need the influc of everything being diffrent just because" ... even though SWs have been a different faction for about 20 years... no reason to think they should be different JUST because...

Just have a little perspective and stop eating up everything your being told. GW does want to sell you as much as possible and the fact that people cant see that this is all a part of that is just annoying to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:


I never said anything about people not playing what they want to play. I have only said that there "ARE PEOPLE WHO DO NOT WANT TO PLAY GENERIC COOKIE CUTTER PRIMARIS MARINES." Do I need to keep repeating that to you while you put words into my mouth about how I think "there is one true way to play X Y Z ." Read what i am writing and stop reading what you think I am writing. and again... if you think this supplement is going to have 56ish unique datasheets like the SW codex had... then you clearly have never seen a SM supplement before.

Stop trying to gatekeep by telling people who dont want to play with a generic boring army that they have to ,,,, even though they got into the game, built there armies and have enjoyed not doing that up until recently.
stop eating up everthing GW tells you that you want and at minimum stop telling everyone else they have to as well.

I'm actually for getting rid of the Death Guard and Thousand Sons codices so you're partly on track.

In 2007 the 4th ed CSM codex replaced the 3.5 one and the Chaos legions effectively ceased to exist from a rules standpoint. And yet here we are. In the year 2020 Thousand Sons have their own codex and Space Wolves are getting rolled into the vanilla marine dex. This is surreal.

 Type40 wrote:
I never said anything about people not playing what they want to play.

Really? What about when you said:

Type40 wrote:In SW, currently, you take plasma cannon long fangs,,, not hellblasters...
In SW currently, if you like the fluff, you ll take bloodclaws not generic primaris assault.
In SW currently, if you like the fluff, you ll take grey hunters, not generic intercessors.

Those are definitely implications of "if you like Intercessors, then you don't like the fluff".

I have only said that there "ARE PEOPLE WHO DO NOT WANT TO PLAY GENERIC COOKIE CUTTER PRIMARIS MARINES."

That's not what you said back there though.

Do I need to keep repeating that to you while you put words into my mouth about how I think "there is one true way to play X Y Z ." Read what i am writing and stop reading what you think I am writing. and again...

I did read. I just quoted you.

If you'd like to address those comments?

if you think this supplement is going to have 56ish unique datasheets like the SW codex had... then you clearly have never seen a SM supplement before.

Why do the Wolves need 56 unique datasheets? By my count, they had something like <20, not counting named characters. For what it's worth, the Ultramarines have 12 (I think) unique datasheets in theirs, including characters. So, it's safe to say the Wolves double that number - and, let's say two datasheets per side, two sides per page, so four datasheets per page, and that's... three extra pages? Let's say four extra pages to be sure.

Wow. A whole FOUR EXTRA PAGES OF DATASHEETS! Yeah, that's really not a big issue, especially when there's about that kind of difference between the Iron Hands and Ultramarines already. So yeah, it really wouldn't be an issue.

If you'd like to take the time to tell us what those 56 unique datasheets are, I'd be most welcome.

Stop trying to gatekeep by telling people who dont want to play with a generic boring army that they have to

No-one said that.

Stop making stuff up.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Cornishman wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Cornishman wrote:
How to Wolfyfy Primaris, now that Crawl's initial batch of Primaris are settled in so presumably the 'new' primaris are either oldborn crossing the rubicon or new recruits....

Take Assault Intercessors, Rename Primaris Blood Claws <tweek rules to taste>
Take Intercessors, rename Primaris Grey Hunters...
Take Hellblasters, rename to Longfang Hellblasters....

No need to tweak the rules. Just rename and it's sufficient.

But being Headstrong Berserkers is a key thing that differentiates Blood Claws from regular Assault Marines. Simply renaming Assault Intercessors would lose this quintessential essence from the Blood Claw.

Okay - introduce a rule where in <Space Wolves> <Assault Intercessor> Squads gain the Headstrong Berserkers ability.
One sentence fix.

Or, something instead like "Space Wolves Assault Intercessor, Assault Marine, and Bike Squads all gain the <Blood Claws> keyword. Models with the <Blood Claws> keyword gain the Headstrong Berserkers rule."

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Type40 wrote:
I never said anything about people not playing what they want to play.

Really? What about when you said:

Type40 wrote:In SW, currently, you take plasma cannon long fangs,,, not hellblasters...
In SW currently, if you like the fluff, you ll take bloodclaws not generic primaris assault.
In SW currently, if you like the fluff, you ll take grey hunters, not generic intercessors.

Those are definitely implications of "if you like Intercessors, then you don't like the fluff".

I have only said that there "ARE PEOPLE WHO DO NOT WANT TO PLAY GENERIC COOKIE CUTTER PRIMARIS MARINES."

That's not what you said back there though.

Do I need to keep repeating that to you while you put words into my mouth about how I think "there is one true way to play X Y Z ." Read what i am writing and stop reading what you think I am writing. and again...

I did read. I just quoted you.

If you'd like to address those comments?

if you think this supplement is going to have 56ish unique datasheets like the SW codex had... then you clearly have never seen a SM supplement before.

Why do the Wolves need 56 unique datasheets? By my count, they had something like <20, not counting named characters. For what it's worth, the Ultramarines have 12 (I think) unique datasheets in theirs, including characters. So, it's safe to say the Wolves double that number - and, let's say two datasheets per side, two sides per page, so four datasheets per page, and that's... three extra pages? Let's say four extra pages to be sure.

Wow. A whole FOUR EXTRA PAGES OF DATASHEETS! Yeah, that's really not a big issue, especially when there's about that kind of difference between the Iron Hands and Ultramarines already. So yeah, it really wouldn't be an issue.

If you'd like to take the time to tell us what those 56 unique datasheets are, I'd be most welcome.

Stop trying to gatekeep by telling people who dont want to play with a generic boring army that they have to

No-one said that.

Stop making stuff up.

Are we playing the "take someones post out of context game" now ? I have repeatedly told you what I am annoyed about and you are repeatedly twisting words and taking posts out of context to try and say I am gatekeeping somehow.
You are the one who is telling me I shouldnt be worried about my faction litterally being amalgamated into another faction...

and why do you think CSM is any different from SW... its exactly the same. With HQ options that are different and non-comparable to SM ... I never seen a SM wolf priest ? there are unique units like wulfen and the basic units have completely different rule sets... how are you willfuilly ignoring that..

What do we want a game where litterally anything in power armor is just "space marine codex" honestly why not CSM ... Really name one thing that makes it different from SW other then primaris ? unique rules, unique units, and just a handful of overlap with SM when it comes to a few specific units.

yout ridiculous... you can think my advocation for MORE options and my personal dislike of primaris is gatrekeeping if you want. But honestly. What seems to be coming out of most of the people who are for this amalgamation on this thread is "why would they be in different codexes primaris marines are primaris marines and everyone just plays primaris marines right ?" and this GW pandering crap that everyone is touting is getting on my nerves. They have been serving up primaris for 2 years and that was fine. I am unhappy about my unique stuff getting squished into another faction because the new stuff they want to sell isnt all that unique. Do you really not get what I am saying ? are you really going to try and say that I am saying something else ? I am putting my stance in writing here, once again, quite clearly, are you going to take me out of context yet again ?

I doubt Fenris is the only glacial planet on the Imperium or the only one with nordic like culture.

For what it's worth, here's my breakdown on what are "unique" Space Wolves units.

Bolded all the named characters, but that puts at 27 unique units (many of which are only unique by virtue of being a special character, or because they have access to a Terminator squad leader - which shouldn't even be a uniquely Space Wolves feature, as the Iron Hands were known to do that as well (as well as the Salamanders and Black Templars, if I'm not mistaken?)

So, 27 unique units, at something like 3 per page (that's 1.5 on both sides, meaning one sheet of paper having three units on it) - a whopping... 9 pages. For contrast, the Ultramarines needed 4 for their 11 datasheets.

It's really not a big difference - nowhere near the difference between something like the Genestealer Cult codex and the Space Marines one. I don't even think it would cost much more.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Type40 wrote:Are we playing the "take someones post out of context game" now ?

There was no context in that quote.

I have repeatedly told you what I am annoyed about and you are repeatedly twisting words and taking posts out of context to try and say I am gatekeeping somehow.

Nothing you have said has ever addressed the quote comment I reposted.

You are the one who is telling me I shouldnt be worried about my faction litterally being amalgamated into another faction...

I didn't say you shouldn't be worried. I said you shouldn't be acting like it's already happened, which is how you're behaving.

There's a big difference.

With HQ options that are different and non-comparable to SM ... I never seen a SM wolf priest ? there are unique units like wulfen and the basic units have completely different rule sets... how are you willfuilly ignoring that..

I'm not. For your viewing pleasure (because I rightly assumed you wouldn't actually do a comprehensive list), I've made a list of the genuinely unique units in the SW book.

27. Not 35+. Wolf Priests are Chaplains with a single extra rule that can be added in via a Chapter wide keyword at the front of the supplement. The "Primaris Wolf Priest" is literally just a Primaris Chaplain, with Healing Balms. That's it - and it's not worth a full new datasheet for. Just add a "all <Space Wolves> <Chaplains> get the <Wolf Priest> keyword. All <Wolf Priests> get Healing Balms, described here..."

What do we want a game where litterally anything in power armor is just "space marine codex" honestly why not CSM ... Really name one thing that makes it different from SW other then primaris ? unique rules, unique units, and just a handful of overlap with SM when it comes to a few specific units.

Daemons, entirely unique daemon engines with no equivalents, a lack of Scout units, entirely unique and mechanically distinct HQs (not just basic HQ plus one rule).

yout ridiculous... you can think my advocation for MORE options and my personal dislike of primaris is gatrekeeping if you want.

Read what I said. That's not what I called you out for gatekeeping.

I called you out for gatekeeping for a completely different thing. If you're going to get twitchy about that, then have the courtesy to know *why* I called you out on it.

I am unhappy about my unique stuff getting squished into another faction because the new stuff they want to sell isnt all that unique.

But you're acting like that HAS happened, or that you KNOW it will. You don't.

You're making up things to complain about. At least wait until it happens.

Do you really not get what I am saying ?

No, I know exactly what you're trying to say. I'm telling you that what you're saying is ridiculous, because NOTHING'S HAPPENED YET.

Instead of saying "GW'S RUINED MY ARMY THEY'VE RUINED IT ALL", instead consider phrasing it more like "I'm WORRIED that GW will do XYZ, but I'm going to have to wait and see".

Instead of acting like GW have already done something (which they haven't), consider not acting like they've already done something?

are you going to take me out of context yet again ?

Yeah, that's what I'm wondering about you, too.

I also don't think Iron Priests are actually different to Techmarines outside just the pistol and Hammer.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I also don't think Iron Priests are actually different to Techmarines outside just the pistol and Hammer.

Yeah, it's one of the ones where I was being generous on. Realistically, the Hellfrost pistol could do with being made into a unique SW pistol (in much the same way that Frost Weapons can be made a unique SW melee weapon), and then just give ALL Techmarines access to a melee weapon/pistol combo (because really, why shouldn't a Salamanders Techmarine not be able to have a thunder hammer and hand flamer?)

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
For what it's worth, here's my breakdown on what are "unique" Space Wolves units.

Spoiler:

Arjac Rockfist
Bjorn
Canis Wolfborn
Harald Deathwolf
Iron Priest
Krom Dragongaze
Logan Grimnar
Logan Grimnar on Stormrider
Njal the Stormcaller (only needs one datasheet, which can include both Terminator or regular variants)
Ulrik the Slayer
Wolf Guard on Thunderwolf
Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf

Blood Claws
Grey Hunters

Lukas the Trickster
Murderfang
Wolf Scouts
Wulfen
Wulfen Dreadnought

Cyberwolves
Fenrisian Wolves
Skyclaws
Swiftclaws
Thunderwolf Cavalry

Stormfang
Stormwolf
Long Fangs

Bolded all the named characters, but that puts at 27 unique units (many of which are only unique by virtue of being a special character, or because they have access to a Terminator squad leader - which shouldn't even be a uniquely Space Wolves feature, as the Iron Hands were known to do that as well (as well as the Salamanders and Black Templars, if I'm not mistaken?)

So, 27 unique units, at something like 3 per page (that's 1.5 on both sides, meaning one sheet of paper having three units on it) - a whopping... 9 pages. For contrast, the Ultramarines needed 4 for their 11 datasheets.

It's really not a big difference - nowhere near the difference between something like the Genestealer Cult codex and the Space Marines one. I don't even think it would cost much more.

but custodes and harlequins are their own factions lol .

now saying that.
No, not a sing unit is only unique because it has access to terminator squad leader. Each one of those units, like the long fangs, has accesses to other unique rules as well. like the wolf banner for the grey hunters. +1 attack on the charge for blood claws, swiftclaws, skyclaws. rerolling 1s for the long fangs and etc ...

what makes CSM not SM
The abilities are different for a unit, the unit composition is different, the unit size is different and the wargear options are different.
every single one of these things is true for SW as well.
So stop trying to pretend there is anything different between doing this to CSM or SW.
why not put CSM in the SM codex and just say"you cant take primaris"
it would be exactly the same at that point.


p.s. you missed a bunch

• Arjac Rockfist
• Battle Leaders in Phobos Armour
• Bjorn the Fell-handed
• Canis Wolfborn
• Harald Deathwolf
• Iron Priest
• Krom Dragongaze
• Logan Grimnar
• Njal Stormcaller
• Njal Stormcaller in Runic Terminator Armour
• Primaris Battle Leader
• Primaris Rune Priest
• Primaris Wolf Lord
• Rune Priest
• Rune Priest in Terminator Armour
• Ulrik the Slayer
• Wolf Guard Battle Leader
• Wolf Guard Battle Leader in Terminator Armour
• Wolf Guard Battle Leader on Thunderwolf
• Wolf Lord
• Wolf Lord in Cataphractii Armour
• Wolf Lord in Gravis Armour
• Wolf Lord in Terminator Armour
• Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf
• Logan Grimnar on Stormrider

not a single HQ option is the same in SW,,, including the primaris ones.
p.s. there isnt a codex out there that currently uses the same datasheet for something with/without terminator armor and don't pretend like its anything different to deflate your numbers lol.

• Blood Claws
• Grey Hunters

you got the troops right

• Great Company Ancient
• Great Company Champion
• Lukas the Trickster
• Murderfang
• Venerable Dreadnought
• Wolf Guard
• Wolf Guard Cataphractii Terminators
• Wolf Guard Tartaros Terminators
• Wolf Guard Terminators
• Wolf Scouts
• Wulfen
• Wulfen Dreadnought

Oh you didnt notice the unique options for SW Ven Dreads now ?

• Cyberwolves
• Fenrisian Wolves
• Skyclaws
• Swiftclaw Attack Bikes
• Swiftclaws
• Thunderwolf Cavalry
• Wolf Scout Bikers

• Stormfang Gunship
• Stormwolf
• Long Fangs

My count is 49 datasheets... 49 datasheets that would need to be in a supplement ?
Do you really not understand why someone might be upset that their faction is getting amalgamated into the generic cookie cutter version of itself ?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
For what it's worth, here's my breakdown on what are "unique" Space Wolves units.

Most of which aren't really 'unique' outside of having slightly different options compared to their vanilla counterparts, and could easily be rolled into a single combined list.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I also don't think Iron Priests are actually different to Techmarines outside just the pistol and Hammer.

Yeah, it's one of the ones where I was being generous on. Realistically, the Hellfrost pistol could do with being made into a unique SW pistol (in much the same way that Frost Weapons can be made a unique SW melee weapon), and then just give ALL Techmarines access to a melee weapon/pistol combo (because really, why shouldn't a Salamanders Techmarine not be able to have a thunder hammer and hand flamer?)

oh and a warpsmith isnt different from a tech priest either. they do virtually the same thing XD... just different wargear options XD lol...
again why not CSM ? they can go in this new SM dex as well XD if its all the same anyways .


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
For what it's worth, here's my breakdown on what are "unique" Space Wolves units.

Most of which aren't really 'unique' outside of having slightly different options compared to their vanilla counterparts, and could easily be rolled into a single combined list.

Spoiler:

Iron Priest - Techmarine
Wolf Guard on Thunderwolf
Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf

Blood Claws - Assault Squad (no jump packs) or combined entry with Crusader Squad
Grey Hunters - Tactical Squad (I don't really see why Tacs shouldn't be able to take pistol/CCW loadout too)

Wolf Scouts - Scout Squad
Wulfen - combined entry with Death Company and other similar units currently not represented)
Wulfen Dreadnought - Dreadnought with two CCW, combined with Furioso and Ironclad

Cyberwolves
Fenrisian Wolves
Skyclaws - Assault Squad
Swiftclaws - Bike Squad
Thunderwolf Cavalry

Stormfang - generic shooty flier entry combined with Stormtalon, Nephilim etc.
Stormwolf - generic transporty flier entry combined with Stormraven, Corvus
Long Fangs - Devastators (Oh wah! I can't take a plasma gun on the sergeant any more...)

ummm your forgetting that each one of those units has at least one unique rule that sets them apart from their vanillas... just like a CSM marine unit has ever so slightly different rules for each of their units as well... come on. why do we get to have it both ways ? If SW arnt different enough then niether are CSM .

Type40 wrote:but custodes and harlequins are their own factions lol .

Harlequins and Custodes don't share 50%+ of their units with other Codexes though.

If Space Wolves unique units were ONLY the units present in the Codex, you'd have a point. But they're not.

No, not a sing unit is only unique because it has access to terminator squad leader. Each one of those units, like the long fangs, has accesses to other unique rules as well. like the wolf banner for the grey hunters. +1 attack on the charge for blood claws, swiftclaws, skyclaws. rerolling 1s for the long fangs and etc ...

The single rule abilities like the Headstrong/Berserk Charge/Fire Discipline rules don't require a full datasheet - just tie those abilities into keywords on a single "Features of the Space Wolves" page in the supplement.
Something like:
X Space Wolf units gain the <Blood Claws> keyword. All <Blood Claws> gain ABC rule.
Y Space Wolf units gain the <Long Fangs> keyword. All <Long Fangs> gain DEF rule.
That way, you can even have Primaris units covered by Space Wolf unique rules (such as Eliminators becoming Long Fangs as well, or Assault Intercessors being Blood Claws too).

every single one of these things is true for SW as well.

The changes aren't as drastic as you say. The biggest one of all is the Grey Hunters, and that's about it for actual squads.

So stop trying to pretend there is anything different between doing this to CSM or SW.
why not put CSM in the SM codex and just say"you cant take primaris"
it would be exactly the same at that point.

It really wouldn't. Unlike regular Marines, Chaos have daemons, which have no equivalent. Chaos have cult troops, which have no equivalent. Chaos have cultists, no equivalent. Chaps have possessed, Greater Possessed, and various HQs with completely unique datasheets - no equivalents.
And, on the Marine side, there are plenty of vehicles with no comparison. Scouts, Centurions, Scout Bikers, Attack Bikers, Land Speeders - all with no easy fix.

p.s. you missed a bunch

I'll highlight and talk about the ones I "missed", because I have reasons for the lot.

• Arjac Rockfist
• Battle Leaders in Phobos Armour - Compare the profiles between them and regular Lieutenants. They're identical. No unique profile here.
• Bjorn the Fell-handed
• Canis Wolfborn
• Harald Deathwolf
• Iron Priest
• Krom Dragongaze
• Logan Grimnar
• Njal Stormcaller
• Njal Stormcaller in Runic Terminator Armour Bundled into one profile, seeing as they're barely different, but sure, if you feel that strongly.
• Primaris Battle Leader - Compare the profiles between them and regular Lieutenants. They're identical. No unique profile here.
• Primaris Rune Priest - Compare the profiles between them and regular Librarians. They're identical. No unique profile here.
• Primaris Wolf Lord - Compare the profiles between them and regular Captains. They're identical. No unique profile here.
• Rune Priest - Compare the profiles between them and regular Chaplains. Aside from Healing Balms (which can be easily keyworded in), they're identical. No unique profile here.
• Rune Priest in Terminator Armour - Compare the profiles between them and regular Terminator Chaplains. Aside from keywordable Healing Balms, they're identical. No unique profile here.
• Ulrik the Slayer
• Wolf Guard Battle Leader - Compare the profiles between them and regular Lieutenants. They're identical. No unique profile here.
• Wolf Guard Battle Leader in Terminator Armour - Generic Lieutenants should get Terminator Armour too. No unique profile here.
• Wolf Guard Battle Leader on Thunderwolf
• Wolf Lord - Compare the profiles between them and regular Captains. They're identical. No unique profile here.
• Wolf Lord in Cataphractii Armour- Compare the profiles between them and regular Captains. They're identical. No unique profile here.
• Wolf Lord in Gravis Armour- Compare the profiles between them and regular Captains. They're identical. No unique profile here.
• Wolf Lord in Terminator Armour - Compare the profiles between them and regular Captains. They're identical. No unique profile here.
• Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf
• Logan Grimnar on Stormrider
not a single HQ option is the same in SW,,, including the primaris ones.

A name change doesn't make them unique by any stretch of the imagination.

Aside from Healing Balms on the Chaplains (which is easily addable with keywords), there is no unique mechanical difference. I'm not saying SW don't have unique aspects. But if you want to convince people that you're truly that unique, don't lie.

p.s. there isnt a codex out there that currently uses the same datasheet for something with/without terminator armor and don't pretend like its anything different to deflate your numbers lol.

I only deflated my numbers by one, only in the case of Njal, and that's simply because in the case of Calgar, GW have given him three profiles, and then condensed them into one. But, one Njal doesn't change my statement by much - 28 it is.

• Great Company Ancient - Identical to a Company Ancient. Just remove the word 'great'.
• Great Company Champion - Identical to a Company Champion. Just remove the word 'great'.
• Lukas the Trickster
• Murderfang
• Venerable Dreadnought - Ah, one I did miss! Only because of the Wolf Claw, Axe and Shield options. Still, these could call be added in via a "Space Wolves Dreadnought Weapon" chart - so, no unique datasheet.
• Wolf Guard - Identical to Veterans. No datasheet.
• Wolf Guard Cataphractii Terminators - Identical to Cataphractii. No datasheet.
• Wolf Guard Tartaros Terminators - Identical to Tartaros Terminators. No datasheet.
• Wolf Guard Terminators - Only unique because they can mix and match weapons, which should be a feature on ALL Terminators, as described in lore such as Space Hulk and Herald of Oblivion. No unique datasheet.
• Wolf Scouts
• Wulfen
• Wulfen Dreadnought
Oh you didnt notice the unique options for SW Ven Dreads now ?

Yup, I'll admit I didn't see that one. But, it would be far simpler to add a "Space Wolves Dreadnought Weapons" chart than write a whole new datasheet.

• Cyberwolves
• Fenrisian Wolves
• Skyclaws
• Swiftclaw Attack Bikes - No difference from regular Attack Bikes aside from an easily keywordable extra rule. No datasheet.
• Swiftclaws
• Thunderwolf Cavalry
• Wolf Scout Bikers - No difference from regular Scout bikers. No datasheet.

My count is 49 datasheets... 49 datasheets that would need to be in a supplement ?

Considering that most of those units you mentioned are lazy reskins of existing ones, with nothing but a name change to set them apart, no, there's nowhere near 49 datasheets.

28, including a split Njal profile. My stance is unchanged.

Do you really not understand why someone might be upset that their faction is getting amalgamated into the generic cookie cutter version of itself ?

There's no such thing happening.

Define "being amalgamated into a generic cookie cutter version", using only the FACTS we know - ie, don't start crying about how units are going to get cut without knowing that. Assume that, for all intents and purposes, any army you currently can play, you will be able to do so. Now tell me what's changing.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Type40 wrote:
oh and a warpsmith isnt different from a tech priest either. they do virtually the same thing XD... just different wargear options XD lol...

A Warpsmith, maybe not.

But what about a Master of Possession? A Master of Executions? A Lord Discordant? A Daemon Prince? All entirely distinct.

space wolves don't have a stormwolf, wulfen, wulfen dreadnaughts, thunderwolves and etc ? those are as different as deamons, master of possessions, and etc. what is the the equivalent of those ?.. come on... why are you pretending that SW dont have unique and different units all of a sudden ?

p.s. custodes have landraiders and contemptors. 2/11 datasheets.
this means aproximately 20% of the custode codex is shared with SM.... just like SW ... guess the custodes should go in the SM codex as well huh ... if sharing 20% of your codex with SM makes them the same army ?

I am just saying, SW have more unique units that are not shared with SM or anyother chapters then custodes or harlequins have in total.

 Type40 wrote:
space wolves don't have a stormwolf, wulfen, wulfen dreadnaughts, thunderwolves and etc ? those are as different as deamons, master of possessions, and etc. what is the the equivalent of those ?.. come on... why are you pretending that SW dont have unique and different units all of a sudden ?

For someone complaining about not reading what you're putting, you're doing a lot of that with me.

I didn't say at all that Space Wolves don't have unique and different units. Only that the MAJORITY of their units are essentially identical to generic ones. The same cannot be said of Chaos.

p.s. custodes have landraiders and contemptors. 2/11 datasheets.
this means aproximately 20% of the custode codex is shared with SM.... just like SW ... guess the custodes should go in the SM codex as well huh ... if sharing 20% of your codex with SM makes them the same army ?

Sorry, what? You're saying that SW only share *20%* of their units with core Marines? That 80% of their whole army is unique? Yeah, no. No way.


Go and take a maths class. The Primaris ALONE would make up over 50%, not including the identical-in-all-but-name options like Wolf Guard, Wolf Lords and Great Company Ancients. There is no way that Space Wolves have anywhere near 50% unique units, let alone 80% like you claim.

I am just saying, SW have more unique units that are not shared with SM or anyother chapters then custodes or harlequins have in total.

Yes, they might have the most unique options *out of the other Chapters*. Yes, they might have more unique units than some armies have units entirely. But neither of those are necessarily justification for why they need their own unique Codex. After all, the Ultramarines in the previous version of the Codex had the most unique units out of all the other supplement choices, and had more unique units than some other armies had total - does that mean the Ultramarines should also have a unique Codex?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Type40 wrote:
space wolves don't have a stormwolf, wulfen, wulfen dreadnaughts, thunderwolves and etc ? those are as different as deamons, master of possessions, and etc. what is the the equivalent of those ?.. come on... why are you pretending that SW dont have unique and different units all of a sudden ?

For someone complaining about not reading what you're putting, you're doing a lot of that with me.

I didn't say at all that Space Wolves don't have unique and different units. Only that the MAJORITY of their units are essentially identical to generic ones. The same cannot be said of Chaos.

but the same CAN be said about chaos. Honestly, the majority of their units are essentially identical in role to SM or SW. As much as the SW at least. Why not ? What is a Beserker but a fancy assault marine ? what is a possesd but a different wulfen ?
Seriously ? whats the differences ?

p.s. custodes have landraiders and contemptors. 2/11 datasheets.
this means aproximately 20% of the custode codex is shared with SM.... just like SW ... guess the custodes should go in the SM codex as well huh ... if sharing 20% of your codex with SM makes them the same army ?

Sorry, what? You're saying that SW only share *20%* of their units with core Marines? That 80% of their whole army is unique? Yeah, no. No way.


Go and take a maths class. The Primaris ALONE would make up over 50%, not including the identical-in-all-but-name options like Wolf Guard, Wolf Lords and Great Company Ancients. There is no way that Space Wolves have anywhere near 50% unique units, let alone 80% like you claim.

I am just saying, SW have more unique units that are not shared with SM or anyother chapters then custodes or harlequins have in total.

Yes, they might have the most unique options *out of the other Chapters*. Yes, they might have more unique units than some armies have units entirely. But neither of those are necessarily justification for why they need their own unique Codex. After all, the Ultramarines in the previous version of the Codex had the most unique units out of all the other supplement choices, and had more unique units than some other armies had total - does that mean the Ultramarines should also have a unique Codex?

Why are we excluding named characters ? the supplement wont ? there are about 25 unique HQ options alone... I know you don't like the comparison between CSM and SW ... but realistically they are as different from SM as each other outside of primaris.